Straight from Yuji Naka
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I just wanna go back to when games didn't have politics, let's talk about the apolitical games of the past.
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
- Start date
Straight from Yuji Naka
Mario is a franchise about a working class man perpetually caught up in an unending power struggle between two monarchs.
And as part of the working class raising his personal ensign over the former property of the monarchy. utterly apolitical.
Like I said, there will always be at least a bit of political meaning that informs the design and story in games you make since it's something you can never really avoid when making any creative work. Would you say Sonic the Hedgehog is an effective work of political art that tackles animal rights/environmentalism issues though, or is it more accurate to say that making escapism and fun gameplay for general audiences is heavily prioritized over making a political artistic statement?
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Red Faction and Red Faction Guerilla are not sending a message to developers demanding they rise up against crunch culture, but it's an apolitical game about a guy trying to have fun at work and has to deal with the fun police. Kind of strange people are yelling independence all the time though, must be set around the 4th of July.
Mindless consumers feeding on the constant and endless flow of breadcrumbs laid out before them in hopes to find the rare pellet of opportunity that will finally allow them to devour the ghosts of their past and unleash their true potential, breaking through to the other side only to find they have entered yet another rat race of breadcrumbs and ghosts to overcome.
I'm gonna use this if a goober ever comes up with "SO I GUESS PACMAN IS POLITICAL TOO HUH?"
I never understood this "if everything is political then nothing is political" argument.
That's like saying "if everybody is made of H2O then nobody is", doesn't make any sense.
That's like saying "if everybody is made of H2O then nobody is", doesn't make any sense.
Play a Mario game or something artsy like Monument Valley and remain completely oblivious to anything that may cause a minor level of discomfort by questioning your worldview.
My favourite apolitical game is Final Fantasy VI, where you have to apolitically fight an apolitical tyrant who wants to reshape the world to his own image (which is apolitical).
Btw my favourite apolitical game was called Schleichfahrt / Archimedean Dynasty back in the day.
You are in a submarine but you never know why because why wouldn't you fight a fight underwater. The ocean is way prettier than the land anyway ain't it. No certainly nothing about wars or global devastation or nothing. And you work for people who all hang out underwater, there's certainly no social commentary or anything going on with these trade cartels noooo....
You are in a submarine but you never know why because why wouldn't you fight a fight underwater. The ocean is way prettier than the land anyway ain't it. No certainly nothing about wars or global devastation or nothing. And you work for people who all hang out underwater, there's certainly no social commentary or anything going on with these trade cartels noooo....
I totally love Super Mario Maker 2, which is a totally apolitical game that gives the power to the people to make the levels they have always wanted to make. You can play other people's levels and "rate" (Cool or Boo) and comment on their levels, just like in democracy
I think Ico's world view has become clearer over the years. On the surface, Yorda doesn't have a lot to her, other than the fact that she's excessively passive, quiet, and so white she glows. However the combination of that, Ueda's statements, and his other work, points to some old-school sexism. Shadow of the Colossus featured another lady who has no identity beyond "dead" and "mother". Shadow of the Colossus also had to change a male composer, because to Ueda men are better at exciting action music. The Last Guardian couldn't possibly feature a girl because girls don't have the strength to climb, and people would look under the skirt she would obviously need to have.
It's hard to play Ico without thinking about that stuff now. The fact that the game is about a much younger boy yelling at and dragging Yorda around fits the pattern perfectly. This is not what people typically think of when they hear "objectification of women", but these two are little more than companion cubes. The only woman with agency in his games is the villain from Ico, which plays directly into the whole "young girls good, older women bad" trope.
I fail to see a political statement in there. Do you understand what that means? You can be political, like making a game about capitalism, but without taking a stance on the matter, i.e. stating whether you are for or against capitalism.
Where is the line between the political statement and gameplay when every boss or enemy you fight, most the environments you visit and all the game characters serve that statement? That's a way more involved political themes than 90% of the games that get complaints for being political today.
It really comes down to how "okay" people are with the political statement, rather than how much the game is affected by it. Would you really call Sonic a game where "making escapism and fun gameplay for general audiences is heavily prioritized over making a political artistic statement" if it had the exact same gameplay and level designs, but all the game's themes and characters were based around current social politics issues?
This thread has contravened Poe's Law so many times I think it needs to be renamed after the OP.
Honestly at times you could literally be viewing posts actually made to describe politics in games as actually not political at all.
A daily reminder that "apolitical" usually means "politics I agree with".
Honestly at times you could literally be viewing posts actually made to describe politics in games as actually not political at all.
A daily reminder that "apolitical" usually means "politics I agree with".
My favorite apolitical game of all time is Rush 'n' attack. Even though the game came out during the cold war there is no mention of Russians anywhere!!! You just rush in and attack random soldiers for no reason, awesome!
Pong is apolitical as it gets. Unless those paddles have hidden agendas.
*ponders*
/Pong.svg-58ae72833df78c345ba1e34e.png)
I wonder if the usual crowd would feel Pong was still "apolitical" if they read this excerpt of an interview with Nolan Bushnell:
To me, disclaiming that a game is "apolitical" when it is clearly not, is probably the loudest dogwhistling I've ever heard for a very specific crowd of people that basically sees any minority inclusion in a videogame as "political". I wish the industry would wash their hands of them fully.
I once had someone who insisted on games being political being a bad thing that it was fine in Metal Gear games cause the politics there are just "subtext".
Amazing thread!
Really wish developers would own the political sentiment in their games instead of pretending it doesn't exist to pander to a certain group.
Really wish developers would own the political sentiment in their games instead of pretending it doesn't exist to pander to a certain group.
That just means the games aren't provocative or challenging about it, doesn't make them not political.
Erm either didn't read or thread went completely over your head, or you are exactly the target of thread...
Did you know that in the same year that OO7 was released, that this apolitical game called Fallout came out?
I don't quite know what post nuclear means but that guy on the cover looks fucking COOOLLLLLLLLL
Fallout isn't political? So that's why recently some people bitched that they put politics in the series because they gave away a free optional pride avatar. Apparently they knew what I didn't know.
Yep. This is why I hate idiots accusing dev's of "shoving their political beliefs down people's throats!" Even Tetris could be reasoned as political, looking at how some bricks are more beneficial and have a higher potential for success than others. I've often thought of a Tetris world which includes only the Long4, but choose not to share the idea with others under fear of lynching, probably being accused of classicism or prejudice.
A Tetris with only the long4 would be a utopia.
Any creative work isn't as simple as one or the other. Usually you want to achieve multiple things, in varying degrees. E.g. he clearly wanted to make a thrilling fun platformer. but to developing the context (hugely important to the experience) he also wanted to give voice to some of his beliefs and portray that in-game.
Without lateral thinking and combining multiple goals like this, I guarantee you'd get no game in existence like the ones we enjoy. Even coming up with the basic concept of something like Tetris requires you to sit with pen and paper and brainstorm a bunch of themes/concepts, which will range from very political to barely political. But then during development it will pivot and layer up even more.
... You get the thread, right?
Those were the great times, when SJWs wouldn't ruin our games with political stuff.Hi Era, like you, i'm a GAMER, and all I'd love is for developers to go back to not having any politics in their games. So I thought it'd be a good time to look back fondly on the super apolitial games that I so fondly enjoyed during my childhood. Back when games didn't have any statements to make. Back when art was shallow and meaningless. Just as I am as a human being. So let's start with one super apolitical game that everyone should be very fond of.
Ah yes, Final Fantasy 7. The cornerstone of childhood JRPGs. With one of THE most effective openings in JRPG history. A cool looking guy with a sword hopes off a train and kills two dudes. And he's joined by other cool looking dudes and a woman, the objective is to blow up a reactor thingy for NO REASON WHATSOEVER. It's just like really cool man. We fight a scorpion and then shit blows and like booooommmmmmmmmmmmm and then we go chill and have drinks at a bar. Although, for some reason the characters won't stop talking about saving the planet from an evil corporation that's quite literally sucking the life out of the it. Bit weird that they keep talking about that over and over again. Might be a localization issue, Barret's localization is on point though, totally sounds like Mr. T. 😃
Anyway moving on. Another really totally tubular apolicial game from my childhood. One of the GOAT shooters. You already know who it is.
Oooooo boy what an apoilitical game this was. We play as this badass named James Bond who works for no one in particular. In every level, we shoot bad foreign bad guys for literally no reason. Really weird that the game keeps talking specifically about Russians. Are the levels even in Russia? Probably not. Also, political fiction is not inherently political, as political fiction writers would never attempt to make a statement about anything, especially not politics. 😄
Anyway. Games used to be so much better. Let's stop focusing on 1997 for a second. Let's focus on the next year. A CORNERSTONE in apolitical gaming. I mean just look at this particular title.
Featuring Solid Snake, with TACTICAL 👏 ESPIONAGE 👏 ACTION 👏 sneaking into a secret base in order to do something. You see, if you google search the word, "espionage," there is literally nothing inherently political about the word. And although they keep talking about it, there's no statements made whatsoever about nuclear warfare. You see, the localization team ran a bit wild with this one. In the original translation, Liquid Snake was doing everything for the lols and didn't have any goals whatsoever. Kojima did not approve of the localization as a result. 😃
Name some apolitical games from your childhood and describe them Era. Describe the good times of apolitical gaming. 😃
And it's great to see, that Ubisoft is still keeping up the old vibes with their Tom Clancy's series.
I hate politics in my games!
/s
I seem to be getting some pushback in my replies for some reason despite agreeing with the premise of the thread. I dunno, I feel like there could be a bit more thought put into online discussions. Sometimes I'll read posts on political topics on here - either jokes, or a stance being taken or whatever - and whether intentional or not, or possibly a misreading by me, it comes off as the political discourse equivalent of tackling a math problem by looking up the answer in the back of the math book and saying "solved it" instead of showing your work in your responses. I'm far from being a competent thought leader on most things, but I always enjoy trying to take a more holistic approach in my replies (sometimes long winded and clumsily articulated at times) and productively challenge anyone I'm talking too so hopefully that comes through.
Did he fire the composer of Ico because she was a woman he's reasoning was he needed a musician with more experience doing sweeping orchestral stuff instead of the ambient music she was known for? This is the first I've heard about that if what you're saying is true. Do you have a link to your source?
That said you're probably not wrong about his outdated thoughts on sex and gender roles. Unless it was a mistranslation or something he definitely said those things during a presentation. It opens up a conversation on how gender role norms intersect with various cultures for sure. Portraying women as sex objects is still considered acceptable to many developers in Japan. Though to be fair Ueda avoided that and also seems to portrays women characters with genuine compassion, even if they aren't the strong heroines we're used to in a lot of popular art and entertainment, so there's that.
So I think there's truth to your critique, sure. But I also imo before presenting an analysis of an artwork as solid conclusions I think it's important to keep in mind everything being communicated by said work that might conflict with your judgements.
Like for example your comments of Yorda being super passive and quiet: does it take into account the part of the story indicating she essentially lived her entire life as a caged bird in a castle dungeon? Is it unreasonable that anyone who's experienced that amount of sensory deprivation would probably have stunted mental development and a childlike wonderment of the world around them when seeing a sunny day for the first time?
That's why for me, personally, my reaction to Yorda wasn't, "Oh look, these Japanese game designers don't know what real females are like" as much as "this poor girl in this story is incredibly sensory deprived and traumatized from her situation. Her mental condition is so stunted that her chance to get to be a more complex and strong woman was taken from her." It adds more gravitas to how Ico, a boy who was afforded some freedom until one day it was taken away, resulting in him being locked in a sarcophagus for a longer than comfortable amount of time, immediately connects with her on an empathetic level, as does the player, and that's why he and you want to protect her why there's emotional power in how their relationship develops over the course of the game.
So I think even though some of Ueda's comments that show an outdated view on gender and sex roles can be upsetting, it's important to get a solid read of the art and what it's communicating and also take the good with the bad and all the shades of grey in between regarding both the art and artist.
Btw, if the early concept images are any indication, his next game features a woman protagonist. Assuming there wasn't a miscommunication and he really did have those attitudes, it's possible he's changed his views and grown as a person and I feel that should be taken into account as well.
Well for me I guess it depends on how much the game is actually saying about the politics informing some of the design choices and whether or not that is something the developers are trying to do. Whether or not a creative work becomes a political artistic statement vs entertainment for general audiences kinda depends on to what extent the audience's enjoyment of it aligns with the artists's politics, wouldn't you say? If you're a hardline objectivist or a far right religious zealot, you probably won't have much fun playing the Bioshock games. And that's the point, ultimately. That's an example of good art that's made with the intent to be a political statement.
With that in mind, how effective would you say Sonic the Hedgehog is as a work of environmentalist art? Will it evoke discussion among the audience the way a movie about animal cruelty or deforestation might? Did the designers even intend to make something that serves that purpose?
Does Sonic the Hedgehog have as much to say about its environmentalist messaging as a book like The Jungle or movies like Koyaanisqatsi, Okja and Princess Mononoke? Is the game intended to educate or change anyone's mind or further the causes of environmentalist activism, or is the goal of the dev team mostly to curate fun escapist entertainment for general audiences, regardless of political leanings? Does anyone play Sonic for the politics or is it mostly because of the pretty visuals, the tunes and the fun, fast-paced gameplay? Is the political messaging at all prioritized over that stuff?
Hopefully you see my point more clearly/I communicated it clearly enough. Otherwise, I dunno, I feel like you're making a weird argument that's almost like saying a rollercoaster at a theme park should be considered a work of political art just because of the politics of those who built it or something. Most game developers who are good at what they do will be aware enough of their own politics and how it effects their design choices in the games they make, sure, but whether or not what they make is intended as something ranging from more apolitical entertainment (I don't see how anyone could say a game like Pong isn't an example of this) to art that functions primarily as satire, political commentary, etc and to what degree...to a large extent that depends on the goals of the developers regarding what they want to make, doesn't it?
Of course. I never argued that, being humans who exist in the real world, members on game dev teams themselves will have politics which will come into play at some point amongst each other during the development process.
Did he fire the composer of Ico because she was a woman he's reasoning was he needed a musician with more experience doing sweeping orchestral stuff instead of the ambient music she was known for? This is the first I've heard about that if what you're saying is true. Do you have a link to your source?
That said you're probably not wrong about his outdated thoughts on sex and gender roles. Unless it was a mistranslation or something he definitely said those things during a presentation. It opens up a conversation on how gender role norms intersect with various cultures for sure. Portraying women as sex objects is still considered acceptable to many developers in Japan. Though to be fair Ueda avoided that and also seems to portrays women characters with genuine compassion, even if they aren't the strong heroines we're used to in a lot of popular art and entertainment, so there's that.
So I think there's truth to your critique, sure. But I also imo before presenting an analysis of an artwork as solid conclusions I think it's important to keep in mind everything being communicated by said work that might conflict with your judgements.
Like for example your comments of Yorda being super passive and quiet: does it take into account the part of the story indicating she essentially lived her entire life as a caged bird in a castle dungeon? Is it unreasonable that anyone who's experienced that amount of sensory deprivation would probably have stunted mental development and a childlike wonderment of the world around them when seeing a sunny day for the first time?
That's why for me, personally, my reaction to Yorda wasn't, "Oh look, these Japanese game designers don't know what real females are like" as much as "this poor girl in this story is incredibly sensory deprived and traumatized from her situation. Her mental condition is so stunted that her chance to get to be a more complex and strong woman was taken from her." It adds more gravitas to how Ico, a boy who was afforded some freedom until one day it was taken away, resulting in him being locked in a sarcophagus for a longer than comfortable amount of time, immediately connects with her on an empathetic level, as does the player, and that's why he and you want to protect her why there's emotional power in how their relationship develops over the course of the game.
So I think even though some of Ueda's comments that show an outdated view on gender and sex roles can be upsetting, it's important to get a solid read of the art and what it's communicating and also take the good with the bad and all the shades of grey in between regarding both the art and artist.
Btw, if the early concept images are any indication, his next game features a woman protagonist. Assuming there wasn't a miscommunication and he really did have those attitudes, it's possible he's changed his views and grown as a person and I feel that should be taken into account as well.
Well for me I guess it depends on how much the game is actually saying about the politics informing some of the design choices and whether or not that is something the developers are trying to do. Whether or not a creative work becomes a political artistic statement vs entertainment for general audiences kinda depends on to what extent the audience's enjoyment of it aligns with the artists's politics, wouldn't you say? If you're a hardline objectivist or a far right religious zealot, you probably won't have much fun playing the Bioshock games. And that's the point, ultimately. That's an example of good art that's made with the intent to be a political statement.
With that in mind, how effective would you say Sonic the Hedgehog is as a work of environmentalist art? Will it evoke discussion among the audience the way a movie about animal cruelty or deforestation might? Did the designers even intend to make something that serves that purpose?
Does Sonic the Hedgehog have as much to say about its environmentalist messaging as a book like The Jungle or movies like Koyaanisqatsi, Okja and Princess Mononoke? Is the game intended to educate or change anyone's mind or further the causes of environmentalist activism, or is the goal of the dev team mostly to curate fun escapist entertainment for general audiences, regardless of political leanings? Does anyone play Sonic for the politics or is it mostly because of the pretty visuals, the tunes and the fun, fast-paced gameplay? Is the political messaging at all prioritized over that stuff?
Hopefully you see my point more clearly/I communicated it clearly enough. Otherwise, I dunno, I feel like you're making a weird argument that's almost like saying a rollercoaster at a theme park should be considered a work of political art just because of the politics of those who built it or something. Most game developers who are good at what they do will be aware enough of their own politics and how it effects their design choices in the games they make, sure, but whether or not what they make is intended as something ranging from more apolitical entertainment (I don't see how anyone could say a game like Pong isn't an example of this) to art that functions primarily as satire, political commentary, etc and to what degree...to a large extent that depends on the goals of the developers regarding what they want to make, doesn't it?
Of course. I never argued that, being humans who exist in the real world, members on game dev teams themselves will have politics which will come into play at some point amongst each other during the development process.
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I very much disagree.
I think that even if these "things" are just used as "window dressing", devs have to make a deliberate choice in which statement to convey and then oops, they just made a deliberate political statement. It is unavoidable.
But feel free to name some examples.
Did you even read the quote? Yes, making a fun game is the number one priority because it is a game, but he saw the opportunity to make a political statement and he took it.
This goalpost you've set in this thread is kind of nonsense. It's about games with politics, not games in which the creator's sole or primary intent is to make a political statement first and foremost, even over gameplay.
Would you argue that Battlefield V doesn't count, or make an effective statement, because its $80+ million dollar budget wasn't prioritized to serve the needs of that statement?
For the record, and there's no way to measure this, I believe that Sonic the Hedgehog had every potential to be effective in its statement. It contributed to normalize for children the idea that protecting animals and the environment is good while polluting and industrializing overtop nature for your own greedy purposes is evil.
Making the good guy a working-class joe is a statement in itself.
So basically your argument is "if you take the use of sexist tropes completely out of context and judge this one piece of media in a vacuum, allow the presence of narrative justification for all the creative choices to convince you it makes them good (or inevitable??) somehow, and assume the best about this creator at every turn, its fine actually."
I would argue that one does not actually owe you nor the creator an excessively generous interpretation of the game that ignores any inconvenient contexts or experiences, presumably because you really enjoyed the game and want something that represents your interests and therefore identity to be infallible.
It's not a matter of looking "hard enough." Statements like that are the game's content. The thread is a "joke thread" in the sense that it's illustrating how brainless it is to overlook the central themes and statements of these games.
It's not a hill to die on at all. Almost every video game, as well as political ones, do not convey their messaging enough on the stance they're trying to take.
Don't die on this hill, it's not worth it
There is a reason why Spec Ops: The Line was such a powerful experience, it conveyed the horrors of pointless wars and had a strong critique of "I was just following orders" stance.
I know that some games are more subtle about their messaging but you know what? if a game capitalizes on real-life events/concepts and the political climate of the world, then i want the game to make their players be more educated about the matter, maybe even challenge their opinions. Because honestly speaking, i wouldn't be surprised if most players didn't think of any of the games that were mentioned in this thread to be political at all.
User Banned (3 days): Thread whining; antagonizing fellow user over a series of posts
Or I think the premise of the thread is boring and mostly involves Eden's standard literary masturbation.
Sometimes it's subtle and subconscious - if a game is reinforcing something you already accept as fairly normal, it's not likely to stand out as political, but it doesn't mean that it's not a restatement of a very political ideal.
Most games, in some form or another, morally justify the use of force or violence to overcome ideological opponents and many draw on real world sources for inspiration. Military shooters rarely ask you to consider the politics of their main mechanics - they simply say 'this is our enemy, they're bad, go kill them' - not apprehend, not arrest, not bring to trial or negotiate with, simply execute with impunity and receive accolades for doing so.
The funny thing is having - say - a POC trans character as your main protagonist would certainly be taken as a naked political statement and yet, unless the creator had done this for political reasons (as opposed to just thinking this character was the right fit in the given setting) it would completely apolitical. Glorifying militarism on the other hand is almost always a political statement, regardless of context.
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Why bother participating then?
I think the thread is interesting. Some good talk going on.