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BrickArts295

GOTY Tracking Thread Master
Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,772
Both Lara's have their ups and downs, they just gotta find the right balance.
They kinda almost had it with Shadow but it felt like they were treading the same beats of the previous 2 games with Lara being moody about her actions. I think Chloe in Lost Legacy could be a good inspiration starting point for the next Lara.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
Reboot Lara started out with potential but then evolved into Joel Miller. Blood lusted killer js not the direction they should have gone and, while not the best voice actor, Luddington is very expressive and it's clear in scenes with Jonah that she could have done really well with a more outgoing and upbeat Lara.

Though I have got to wonder what version of the older games many of you played because personality is not a word I'd use to describe her in them. She "gave no fucks" as some say because she barely spoke in them. Her character motivations and changed inconsistently from game to game.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,969
All I know for sure is that the new Lara is awful. The way she is written is borderline absurd at times. I don't like the acting either, but the VA was given a crap script and even worse direction.
 

Yabberwocky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,260
Honestly, the best thing for me out of the TR reboot trilogy is that I discovered 'White Flag' from the Shadow of the Tomb Raider trailers. (It's really, really good.) I've made many unimpressed posts about Reboot!Lara Croft over the years, but ultimately these days it comes down to Uncharted: The Lost Legacy with Chloe as a lead gave me everything I ever wanted from a rebooted Tomb Raider: a charismatic, morally complex female lead that has a compelling character arc, gorgeous levels to explore, and fun gameplay. It's also hard to beat Claudia Black on the voice acting front.

The thing is...old Lara did have a backstory and it was better than anything Crystal Dynamics ever did:



I mean...how cool is all of this?

People saying original Lara was all about boobs clearly missed something.

You can have that old Lara without the shorts and huge boobs and sexual jokes and still have a great character.

She was always much more than that.

It's a shame that this wasn't the baseline Crystal Dynamics worked with for Lara's character with the reboot, because there's so much great character detail to build from -- there's your origin story right there. I think it's fair comment from other users that not a lot of that backstory necessarily comes across in the previous games, but again, that would have been such a great origin story for the reboot. That isn't to say there aren't echoes of it in some aspects of the reboot (Lara surviving in a hostile situation being a life changing experience for her), but I much prefer a Lara disowned by her parents for her ambitions as opposed to a Lara being so focused on her dead father.

I had to go look up the 2012 interview with the producer and man it's way worse than I remembered. No wonder it's vaguely stuck with me ever since then.

kotaku.com

You'll 'Want To Protect' The New, Less Curvy Lara Croft

In the past, Lara Croft didn't need protecting. She was a fearless daredevil, a crack shot in short shorts with enough attitude to scare off a pack of bloodthirsty gorillas.




"You start to root for her in a way that you might not for a male character."

What on earth is that even supposed to mean.

This absolutely gives off "dadgame" vibes, but way worse, because the character in question is a grown ass adult protagonist and not a child NPC like in TLOU.

It's been years, and these quotes still make me so angry. Oh my god.
 

EggmaniMN

Banned
May 17, 2020
3,465
Every time people try to say the new trilogy is bad I just can't help but think of how enormous the rose tinted glasses are for the older games because after 2 the series went straight into the toilet. TR3 was samey but okay and then it was just trash game after trash game for a decade. Legend/Anniversary/Underworld were fine but did absolutely nothing interest character wise or gameplay wise. And then we got nothing again until the new trilogy.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,969
Every time people try to say the new trilogy is bad I just can't help but think of how enormous the rose tinted glasses are for the older games because after 2 the series went straight into the toilet. TR3 was samey but okay and then it was just trash game after trash game for a decade. Legend/Anniversary/Underworld were fine but did absolutely nothing interest character wise or gameplay wise. And then we got nothing again until the new trilogy.
Old trilogy existing at all really doesn't have much to do with the issues with the new one.
 
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Tiago Rodrigues

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
Every time people try to say the new trilogy is bad I just can't help but think of how enormous the rose tinted glasses are for the older games because after 2 the series went straight into the toilet. TR3 was samey but okay and then it was just trash game after trash game for a decade. Legend/Anniversary/Underworld were fine but did absolutely nothing interest character wise or gameplay wise. And then we got nothing again until the new trilogy.

If you think Tomb Raider The last revelation was bad then I can't help you.
It was better than 3 in every way.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,050
How is 10 polygon mountain chest Lara who is just simple teen bait somehow a lower bar than the lass getting cutting up and grunting and in implied attempted rape scenes, getting speared in the throat, etc

I really don't understand people's perspective on this series. The 3 new games are a billion times more fucked up when it comes to whatever issues people supposedly care about when it comes to this series.

Anyway, i dont know how she should be developed as a character but neither has anyone who has made tomb raider games in the past 2 decades. For most other video game characters, they don't fix what isnt broken but Lara Croft is perpetually getting reinvented and just ends up disappointing everyone. It's pretty odd lol
 

thevid

Puzzle Master
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,305
How is 10 polygon mountain chest Lara who is just simple teen bait somehow a lower bar than the lass getting cutting up and grunting and in implied attempted rape scenes, getting speared in the throat, etc

I really don't understand people's perspective on this series. The 3 new games are a billion times more fucked up when it comes to whatever issues people supposedly care about when it comes to this series.

Anyway, i dont know how she should be developed as a character but neither has anyone who has made tomb raider games in the past 2 decades. For most other video game characters, they don't fix what isnt broken but Lara Croft is perpetually getting reinvented and just ends up disappointing everyone. It's pretty odd lol

Everyone knows that rape trauma is the best way to develop female characters. From that Kotaku interview linked earlier:
In the new Tomb Raider, Lara Croft will suffer. Her best friend will be kidnapped. She'll get taken prisoner by island scavengers. And then, Rosenberg says, those scavengers will try to rape her.

"She is literally turned into a cornered animal," Rosenberg said. "It's a huge step in her evolution: she's forced to either fight back or die."
 
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Tiago Rodrigues

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
Controversial opinion here. Tomb Raider 3 is the worst game in the series. It feels like a fan game or one of those mods that's super hard just for the sake of being hard.

The Last Revelation is the real TR3.

The team that did TR3 was a new team that reused TR2 assets basically. TR2 team asked for 2 years for a decent sequel after having to release 2 games, 2 years in a row (TR1 and 2). Eidos gave them the 2 years but while TR2 was being developed, they formed a secondary team that went to work on TR3. Then the TR2 team went straight into The last revelation. So in a way you're right. The last revelation is the true sequel to TR2.
 

EggmaniMN

Banned
May 17, 2020
3,465
If you think Tomb Raider The last revelation was bad then I can't help you.
It was better than 3 in every way.

Well that's just entirely laughable. Booting up that game on the Dreamcast was just embarrassing. And then Chronicles and Angel of Darkness were even worse in every way. It wasn't just a downward trend after 3, it was just a cliff.
 
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Tiago Rodrigues

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
Well that's just entirely laughable. Booting up that game on the Dreamcast was just embarrassing. And then Chronicles and Angel of Darkness were even worse in every way. It wasn't just a downward trend after 3, it was just a cliff.

Never played on Dreamcast (neither did most people). This is genuinely the first time someone says TR3 is a better game than The Last revelation. There is truly a first time for everything huh
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
I wonder if people don't remember that old school Lara was practically a CELEBRITY. She felt like the first human character in a way.
 

Jaded Alyx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,378
The team that did TR3 was a new team that reused TR2 assets basically. TR2 team asked for 2 years for a decent sequel after having to release 2 games, 2 years in a row (TR1 and 2). Eidos gave them the 2 years but while TR2 was being developed, they formed a secondary team that went to work on TR3. Then the TR2 team went straight into The last revelation. So in a way you're right. The last revelation is the true sequel to TR2.
This makes so much sense now.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,865
I wonder if people don't remember that old school Lara was practically a CELEBRITY. She felt like the first human character in a way.


Not necesarily in a good way. I remember back when I was in high school I was talking about the 2013 Tomb raider with some friends and a girl who overheard it audibly laughed out loud at the mention of "Lara Croft", such was the characters reputation at the time.

Now that's an anecdotes but she certainly wasnt the only person I knew to hold a similarly low view of that character
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Not necesarily in a good way. I remember back when I was in high school I was talking about the 2013 Tomb raider with some friends and a girl who overheard it audibly laughed out loud at the mention of "Lara Croft", such was the characters reputation at the time.
Oh it worsened over time sure, but when she first came out? Shit was revolutionary.
 

Chumunga64

Member
Jun 22, 2018
14,276
Ngl, Lara being more vulnerable in the first game makes a ton of sense

when the second was called freakin' rise of the tomb raider, I laughed out loud

what were we doing in the first game? treading water?
 

dreamfall

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,971
You know I'm super excited to see what Lara we get next. I feel like the Reboot trilogy was all about learning and survival, so now we can get the transition phase where she's more experienced, adventuring for treasures, a bit more lighthearted and exploring the world. She doesn't need to be ultra cool, Bond-esque Core/1st Crystal Dynamics trilogy, but I just want to go to some incredible places, take in the sights, and find neat treasures. I think the mystery and backstory of her family will always be part of her character, but I hope the Coming of Age pains are gone! I think the practicality of new outfit designs were great, so I hope she's a bit older, more experienced, and less gung-ho about shooting everyone.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
A monumental hack job on one of the most famous characters you could ever have fall in your lap. They seem to think their version is better, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
 

Arklite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,640
Crystal Dynamics still knows how to do the classic Lara, as evidenced in Guardian of Light and Temple of Osiris games, demeanor/quips and all. Should be alright if they just embrace that instead of awkwardly trying to side step.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,328
It was a decent idea for the first game but they just never got the curve to develop this character into the Lara people knew and loved. I'm not sure why it was such a struggle for them

Ngl, Lara being more vulnerable in the first game makes a ton of sense



when the second was called freakin' rise of the tomb raider, I laughed out loud



what were we doing in the first game? treading water?
Bingo
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,050
Everyone knows that rape trauma is the best way to develop female characters. From that Kotaku interview linked earlier:


the interviews for this game were so bad

A mix of boring lip service and then some weird crap like that^ or "you'll want to protect her"

like they had PR then every once in a while they'd go off the cuff to try to make their video game sound cool but just ughhh lol
 
Aug 13, 2019
3,584
I actually feel like that's been a massive complaint about the Uncharted games forever.

Christ, Uncharted 4 has a trophy titled 'Ludonarrative Dissonance' for killing 1,000 enemies, in tribute to the conversations that Uncharted spawned.
Uncharted has far worse ludonarrative dissonance than TR. Yes, UC has better quality writing, but the game's general light hearted tone completely clashes with the fact that YOU KILL HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE each game lmao
ND even made fun of this by putting a trophy in UC4 referencing this
Is Uncharted guilty of ludonarrative dissonance? Correct me if I'm wrong, but ludonarrative dissonance is supposed to be a conflict between a game's narrative and gameplay. Uncharted's story doesn't usually bring up the fact that Nathan has a massive kill count. The only time I can remember is in 2 when Lazacoric directly asks Nathan how many men has he killed, and even then it's pretty light as far as ludonarrative dissonance goes. And the game doesn't pretend Nathan doesn't kill. He and his allies are well aware that they've taken lives, they just don't make a big deal about it. Nathan as written and Nathan in gameplay is practically the same. None of the games or characters in the Uncharted series really care about the kill count on the adventure. That's not what any of the games are about and the games never really draw attention to it.

An example of ludonarrative dissonance is Hilda from Fire Emblem Three Houses. Whenever the player talks to Hilda, she'll constantly point out how useless she is in battle. How she isn't built for it. How someone else should take her place. But give her a spear and put her in a suit of armor and she'll destroy whole armies. There's a clear conflict between Hilda as written and Hilda in gameplay.

The problem people seem to have with Uncharted is that the game doesn't adequately acknowledge the immense lives taken in a way that satisfies them. They think Nathan, or the people around him, should react negatively to the lives he's taken the same way people would in the real world. The problem is acknowledgment would change the narrative. And, unless the gameplay adjusts to suit it, the conflict between the new narrative and gameplay would create ludonarrative dissonance.
 

sbenji

Member
Jul 25, 2019
1,882
Have only played a few hours of the last game in the recent trilogy I felt like Laura was a mindless killer with no remorse.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,792
Is Uncharted guilty of ludonarrative dissonance?

ND themselves acknowledged it multiple times. As I said, UC4 has a trophy called Ludonarrative dissonance. Bruce Straley himself said that they managed to solve LD present in Uncharted with TLOU.

You are kinda describing it yourself. The game chooses not to acknowledge a major part of what the actual gameplay is. You say that "well, characters just dont care" which would be fine if the game was more cartoony or whatever, but it's very much grounded in reality and human lives are shown to have the same value as in our reality. It's not like there aren't cutscenes where our heroes don't fear for eachothers life or whatever. And, perhaps most importantly, Nathan and co are still ultimately shown in a good light, as the "good guys" despite rampaging through thousands of men. It's not even possible to argue that it's all in self defense because quite often the characters set out to go on a reckless adventure just for some treasure.

On top of that, Nathan's general easy going, jokey, quippy attitude just really clashes with all the murdering and can be seen as jarring. I don't really care about LD, videogames trying to tell a more traditional style story and also having fun gameplay is a difficult thing to pull off without it, but UC is absolutely one of the most egrigious examples of it.

TLOU has almost zero LD because it takes place in a much more hostile, desperate world than ours and you play as a character that is an established killer, and isn't really morally superior to anyone else you meet in the game.

Tomb raider acknowledges the killings, and actively makes them a part of Lara's character development, especially in Shadow. Her paranoia, obsession, self centered attitude all stem from having to defend herself at the start of TR13 and start killing. Again, I can't emphasize it enough: the actual execution of all this isn't the best, the writing is dodgy in all 3 TR games, and not even consistent, but there really isn't much LD outside Lara learning to handle guns like a tier 1 operator within the time spam of 5 minutes due to gameplay reasons i guess.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,931
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
My only problem with the new Lara is that I did not sympathise with her plight and her perspective since it caused so much damage (that Jonah Cutscene for example). I do not always enjoy playing characters that I find are making bad choices all the time when I lack the agency to make them stop making these bad choices.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,717
ive always liked reboot lara, her biggest problem is the writers are never sure if they're writing a character that is supposed to be an action hero, a horror survivor or an intrepid knowledgeable explorer.

Sure they're not mutually exclusive but the tonal shifts between gameplay, cutscenes and playable sequence with dialogue can feel insanely jarring.
 

psychedelic

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,317
Shadow of the Tomb Raider is really underrated IMO, it's one of the few games I've platinumed because it's really fun. The combat encounters were the best of the trilogy, and they felt more focused and incentivized multiple approaches.

I like how the game acknowledged Lara's flawed personality, and maybe she's constantly calling out to Jonah because she knows she's terrible at making big decisions. If I could make any changes to her design, I'd do away with the pony tail and give her shorter hair, but that's a minor gripe. The pony tail always felt out of place to me.
 

Mars People

Comics Council 2020
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,197
It is possible that we can have a confident, fun, badass Lara without her also being over sexualised.
One thing does not need to include the other.
 

Kabukimurder

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
550
Crystal Dynamics Lara Croft is the craziest psychopathic asshole of a main character in video games since the Postal 1 guy. If they had only leaned in to it more the games would have been so much memorable. I know it's not what they first intended.. but after a while they should have just embraced how bad the character turned out and went for it.
 

aevanhoe

Slayer of the Eternal Voidslurper
Member
Aug 28, 2018
7,329
While I'm not a ginormous fan of modern Lara, using a video titled 'Lara being a bitch' as a positive example of 'feminism being at an all time high' and then saying you don't like her character anymore because she's whiny and unlikable strikes me as a little surface level.

I would say that just because she's one of gamings biggest female characters doesn't mean she has to be 'likable' and not show any emotion. You can argue whether it's always hit the mark or not but it feels like a clumsy anology to link that point to feminism to me.

Dunno.

I agree with this completely. I can't say the new Lara is on the level of some other great characters like Aloy, Ellie, Abby, RE3 Remake Jill and Jesse Faden - but I still think it was a step in the right direction for Ms. Croft.
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,780
I like how people completely ignore the fact that prior to 2013 everyone was shitting on Lara Croft as a character for being 1 dimensional, not likeable, not relateable, and just not interesting. TR2013 was a direct response to that. And you know what? 2013 Lara Croft absolutely had more to the character than any previous game, and yes, was infinitely more likeable despite her kill count by the end.

You can make her more confident, have more of an adventurous personality. But going back to what it was before is not better. People putting old Lara Croft on a pedestal makes me roll me eyes. I fucking loved the old games but Lara as a character was 1 dimensional as fuck.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
It is possible that we can have a confident, fun, badass Lara without her also being over sexualised.
One thing does not need to include the other.
For some people it seems if you want anything from pre-reboot Tomb Raider you must also want Lara to be a sex object again. I remember way back when talking about her not getting the twin pistols again someone argued with me about how she shouldn't get them and go back to wearing booty shorts, as if the two were related.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I like how people completely ignore the fact that prior to 2013 everyone was shitting on Lara Croft as a character for being 1 dimensional, not likeable, not relateable, and just not interesting. TR2013 was a direct response to that. And you know what? 2013 Lara Croft absolutely had more to the character than any previous game, and yes, was infinitely more likeable despite her kill count by the end.

You can make her more confident, have more of an adventurous personality. But going back to what it was before is not better. People putting old Lara Croft on a pedestal makes me roll me eyes. I fucking loved the old games but Lara as a character was 1 dimensional as fuck.
2013 on it's own was fine. It is just what came after.

What they should have done is mold new Lara into the badass she was before but with depth and no sexualization. Sadly this didn't happen.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,328
SĂŁo Paulo - Brazil
I believe they can easily make a sequel to Shadow that gives us a different Lara, with a new voice actress and all. You don't have to reboot anything again... just move the story a few years into the future.
 

NightShift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,027
Australia
She was fine in the first game. Put anybody in the situation and you'll be whiny too. The only problem with it is that they don't do enough to show how she changes throughout the game. Like a lot of her voice lines make sense a few hours in but not towards the end. Not to mention the unnecessary torture they put her through.

it baffled me how she was mostly the same in the sequels. After going through so much shit to remain as naive and optimisic as she was at the start of the first game was weird. They could have had a decent character there but by the end she had just turned obnoxiously dumb.
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,780
2013 on it's own was fine. It is just what came after.

What they should have done is mold new Lara into the badass she was before but with depth and no sexualization. Sadly this didn't happen.
The fact I don't remember fuck all about what happened in Rise and Shadow tells you how they dropped the ball with the sequels with everything regarding story. It's a shame, but I will still stand up for 2013. I thought it was a well done origin story.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,827
I don't think that the "broken person" idea is bad in principle, but it feels pointless and idiotic. No one is forcing Lara to kill so many people, she has all the money in the world and could just be better at being stealthy or, here's an idea, find a way to explore that doesn't involve killing people in the first place.
I wouldn't mind a slower and more methodical Tomb Raider, where the real danger is the environment and it's more about trying to gain knowledge about long lost civilisations. I doubt such a game would sell, people love their murder action simulators, but having a murder action simulator and also pretending your game cares about deep writing is just asinine.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
The fact I don't remember fuck all about what happened in Rise and Shadow tells you how they dropped the ball with the sequels with everything regarding story. It's a shame, but I will still stand up for 2013. I thought it was a well done origin story.
2013 was basically her original origin but with the family bullshit mixed in (god I wish this trope could just die). Those aside it worked really well. It actually had her dual wielding pistols at the end and everything was golden.

Rise of the Tomb Raider sounded like it will give us the confident and badass Lara. The title at least implies that. But nooo, she didn't until Shadow's ending and even then I wasn't convinced.