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Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
This topic isn't about the quality of the Tomb Raider games overall...but about how Lara has been written as a character lately.

I find it odd how in a time where feminism as a conversation is at all all time high and has been for years, Crystal Dynamics kind of dropped the ball with Lara Croft's personality with their writing ever since they got the character. She's basically one of videogame's biggest female characters ever and yet...the character has never been less...likable and has never lacked this much charisma.

I was watching this video:



There's a reason most of the video is about Core Design's games and the last third is about Crystal's 1st trilogy. And barely anything from the latest games. And Core Design barely had any cutscenes unlike nowadays.

How come Lara from the 90's sounds way cooler than whatever we got after that?
Yes those outfits wouldn't fly in 2021, some men drooling over her would just be too cringe nowadays and you can tell there wasn't a single woman in the room when those games were written. But my god did she have an actual personality.

Like she really gives no fucks even during her teenage years.
There's charisma there. And that's just something that's been lacking ever since Crystal Dynamics games started to be developed.

The original Crystal Dynamics trilogy actually managed to be good with her lines. But still...everything she was doing and her main motivations was about her mom, basically. That was her main drive. It was all about family. 3 games about that only to find her mom and shooting her in the face cause hey...surprise...her mom was dead anyway.

Their second trilogy you'd think they would change it...but no...it was all about her dad. And i don't like how this strong and independent woman back in the 90's, now always needs some sort of traumatic event to actually be the badass we became to know her for. Much of the latest trilogy is basically torture-porn...followed by a cut-scene with Lara wining about something and screaming for Jonah. The transitions were actually quite jarring. Like how the game went from being so violent when you play it to Lara screaming in a cutscene.

Then we got...this during the latest game, and boy did it came out of nowhere:



1:30 minute in case it doesn't start there. I felt like this latest trilogy was written by multiple people with a different idea of what the character was supposed to be and splashed it all into the games. That rampage that she goes right there is simply out of nowhere. It looks cool. Graphics on point, soundtrack, amazing...but in the game's context? No way.

I hope Crystal's comments about the future of this series being a mix between the classic games and the new ones also includes taking a good look at Lara as a character. We know Crysal has trouble in creating decent characters ever since they got Tomb Raider. I mean...i only remember Jonah because she kept screaming about him, but i forgot about everyone else in the latest trilogy, lmao.

Am i alone in...basically all of this?

Sorry for the rant. It's just something i started to think about when watching the first video i posted above. (and what a nostalgic video tbh)
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,742
Yeah. Reboot Lara is a horrible character. She just complains and whines all the time, and they somehow make her seem like even more of a psychopath based on the way a lot of her kill animations involve severing people's spines with an ice axe.

Bring back confident Lara. We don't need a wimpy horror movie lead.
 

SunBroDave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,159
I agree that the recent trilogy's writing is poor, but I don't agree that the problem is Lara's personality.

Also, Eidos Montreal made Shadow of the Tomb Raider, not Crystal D.
 

Peru

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,130
She was a one dimensional sex doll in the old games

She wasn`t really whiny in the new ones

You're wrong
 

Snake__

Member
Jan 8, 2020
2,450
Well she wasn't the tomb raider yet

But at least she was an actual character in the reboots
 

Jamrock User

Member
Jan 24, 2018
3,163
Women can't be vulnerable.

It had bad writing but lara wasn't whiny.


sarcasm incase it went over your head
 
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Giolon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,092
No, you're not alone. I hate everything they've done with Lara and the reboot. CD's 1st trilogy is peak Tomb Raider for me - especially Anniversay Edition.
 

flaxknuckles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,312
She worked fine in the first game of the new trilogy. Then Square forgot that was an origin story and decided not to evolve her personality.
 

Violence Jack

Drive-in Mutant
Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,771
I liked her in the first two games well enough. It wasn't until Shadow of the Tomb Raider that I found her to be insufferable. I'd also appreciate a return to the early 2000s/Angelina Jolie style of Lara Croft.
 

Cocolina

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,990
There's no progression in her character during all three games. She's the same in 2013 as she is in Shadow, and for a reboot you don't draw the line between that and her "older" version that's represented in the first set of games. I thought the dual-wielding pistols at the end of 2013 was a good sign that we'd see the character grow but it didn't. We just got flashbacks to how she became teenage-Lara instead.
 

John Harker

Knows things...
Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,360
Santa Destroy
The side characters are paper thin or worse, the set ups are either cliche or non existent, and the general pacing of the story telling moves so fast it's hard to follow or ends up nonsensical.... so lots of issues with the games story telling.

but Lara to me isn't one of those problems, she feels appropriately human given the circumstances and well acted. She just needs better support around her.
 

udivision

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,033
"You'll want to protect her" right? That quote was for the new Lara iirc. That seems so long ago, I guess because it was.
 

Meg Cherry

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,279
Seattle, WA
The reboot trilogy is an interesting case study in humanizing a character that almost inherently cannot be humanized. They reimagine Laura as a woman growing into this adventuring, guns-drawn badass - but keep it grounded and relatable the entire time. And by the time they reach the third game - you get the sense the writers realized somebody who raids ancient tombs for treasure while murdering thousands of people every game cannot be a good person. And that if she tries to believe she is one, at some point the dissonance will snap her in two.
 

RedHeat

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,690
I'm not really familiar with classic Lara, but I enjoyed her personality in the first game. She should've been hardened and jaded in Rise.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Old in control and confident Lara that was disowned by her parents because she didn't want to be a "good girl" combined with the recent Lara design (muscles, pants and no sexualization) with some more style like braided her and the twin pistols would be the best Lara ever.

Also stop making the story "realistic". Give us more monsters and supernatural enemies instead of mercenaries. I want to shoot a t rex in the face again.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,788
The oil refinery scene is amazing and easily a highlight of the trilogy, not sure what the issue with it is.
 

Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,532
I agree.

Old Lara was awesome, a much better character and more charismatic than the reboot one. Even the new film version of her is a lot better in that sense (although the film wasn't very good)
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,283
The worst part about new Lara is that she is just boring. She feels like a void in every scene that barely even cares. Posh and confident Lara cannot be topped.
 

Deleted member 511

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,676
Something about calling her whiny rubs me the wrong way and I don't even really like this current version of Lara either.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
The reboot trilogy is an interesting case study in humanizing a character that almost inherently cannot be humanized. They reimagine Laura as a woman growing into this adventuring, guns-drawn badass - but keep it grounded and relatable the entire time. And by the time they reach the third game - you get the sense the writers realized somebody who raids ancient tombs for treasure while murdering thousands of people every game cannot be a good person. And that if she tries to believe she is one, at some point the dissonance will snap her in two.

I would have much preferred Tomb Raider games that were like 80% environmental exploration, platforming, puzzle solving and the like with like 20% for combat and action sequences. I hope if we get a new series of games the would focus more on the actual tomb raiding aspect of it. Making them into straight up action games worked against them in a lot of ways, characterization included.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
No, thanks. The original games had that badass look at me mentality I dont like about games, while the new Laura is a bit more grounded. I agree she should be more confident about herself after all the things she went through in the first game, but I still like her.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,364
While I'm not a ginormous fan of modern Lara, using a video titled 'Lara being a bitch' as a positive example of 'feminism being at an all time high' and then saying you don't like her character anymore because she's whiny and unlikable strikes me as a little surface level.

I would say that just because she's one of gamings biggest female characters doesn't mean she has to be 'likable' and not show any emotion. You can argue whether it's always hit the mark or not but it feels like a clumsy anology to link that point to feminism to me.

Dunno.
 
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Tiago Rodrigues

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
Something about calling her whiny rubs me the wrong way and I don't even really like this current version of Lara either.



Context: In the above cut-scene Lara had just caused an entire village to disappear. And yet she's screaming and yelling about going "after the box" because Trinity can't get there first and that she's "the only one that can do it", totally ignoring the damage she had just done and barely even taking a look at the people in the village.

Even Joah has to scream at her and say "not everything is about you" That's how you know Lara as a character is totally lost.

It always rubbed me the wrong way that cutscene. And honestly? The entire segment.
 

Beth Cyra

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,903
I never got the hate for Reboot Lara to be honest....well in the first game. I thought she was great, and how hard she tried and worked to save her girlfriend was amazing.

Sadly the next two chucked all that in a bin.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
Personality? Sure. But don't touch Shadow Lara design. We finally got a Lara that looks like she can do half the shit she does.
 
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OP
Tiago Rodrigues

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
While I'm not a ginormous fan of modern Lara, using a video titled 'Lara being a bitch' as a positive example of 'feminism being at an all time high' and then saying you don't like her character anymore because she's whiny and unlikable strikes me as a little surface level.

I would say that just because she's one of gamings biggest female characters doesn't mean she has to be 'likable' and not show any emotion. You can argue whether it's always hit the mark or not but it feels like a clumsy anology to link that point to feminism to me.

Dunno.

You can humanize a character without beating her up for 3 games. But if "whiny" is a strong word, it's okay to edit that title.
 

Deleted member 1003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,638
I just think she was poorly written. Constantly saying to herself "I'm not sure I can do this" while simultaneously jamming a machine gun into a dude's gut and blasting away felt just a bit off.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508


Context: In the above cut-scene Lara had just caused an entire village to disappear. And yet she's screaming and yelling about going "after the box" because Trinity can't get there first and that she's "the only one that can do it", totally ignoring the damage she had just done and barely even taking a look at the people in the village.

Even Joah has to scream at her and say "not everything is about you" That's how you know Lara as a character is totally lost.

It always rubbed me the wrong way that cutscene. And honestly? The entire segment.


That is one of the few cutscenes where Lara's character and arc actually make sense and that the writers are aware of what they're doing.

The problem is Shadow eventually forgets this angle and re-embraces that Lara going after the Macguffin is a good thing.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,788


Context: In the above cut-scene Lara had just caused an entire village to disappear. And yet she's screaming and yelling about going "after the box" because Trinity can't get there first and that she's "the only one that can do it", totally ignoring the damage she had just done and barely even taking a look at the people in the village.

Even Joah has to scream at her and say "not everything is about you" That's how you know Lara as a character is totally lost.

It always rubbed me the wrong way that cutscene. And honestly? The entire segment.


I'm incredibly confused as to what is the issue here. If anything this is one of the best cutscenes in the entire trilogy. It shows Lara's unhealthy obsession and selfishness better than any other scene in the game. I'd go as far as to say it's a shame they didn't commit to THIS Lara through the entire game, instead of backtracking a few hours later.

She is a flawed person... and this cutscene showcases that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
I never got the hate for Reboot Lara to be honest....well in the first game. I thought she was great, and how hard she tried and worked to save her girlfriend was amazing.

Sadly the next two chucked all that in a bin.
I liked the first game Lara. It wasn't that bad of an origin (though I felt the story itself was meh). It is just that the next two games kept promising that she would "become the tomb raider" yet it didn't happen until the ending of the third game. I also disliked her parents being once again the motivation she has to become a tomb raider. I liked it more when her parents didn't want her to be tomb raiding and disowned her because she didn't want to stop.

If they had continued on and made it like the first Tomb Raider (PSX) with her being this confident badass that went tomb raiding because she enjoys it, it would have been perfect.
 

Cross-Section

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,874
Reboot Lara is kind of a broken person and it's fairly well-justified by the narrative, especially in Shadow:




In all, I think I prefer this depiction to classic Lara, who always came off as a one-dimensional action hero in comparison.
 
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Nov 2, 2017
6,811
Shibuya
This thread just reminds me of how when Bend was focus testing Uncharted: Golden Abyss, the people invited to played the game regarded Chase as whiny, "bitchy" and other such things. I believe there's an excerpt in there about how Amy Hennig warned them about how people receive female characters unfairly in that regard and how they would need to pay extra attention to that aspect, unfortunately.

On topic, I think the writing in the third game is extremely mixed in quality, but I feel like if Lara had been a man in the games the conversation might have been about how he subverts expectations and is surprisingly flawed.
 

Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,283
I never got the hate for Reboot Lara to be honest....well in the first game. I thought she was great, and how hard she tried and worked to save her girlfriend was amazing.

Sadly the next two chucked all that in a bin.
I do agree that TR 2013 was okay as an origin reboot and Lara considering her situation, acted like she should (aside the grenade launcher Rambo part lol). The sequels just botched any development though.
 

TheSentry42

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,249
We were all whiney when we were young and trying to discover ourselves and avenge our father's death and turn into a deity...

don't you remember?
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,950
I don't recall the original Lara having any personality in the original game. In fact I'd argue she wasn't initially the star of the game - the levels and puzzles were. Second game I remember her being a wealthy girl raiding Tombs.

Beyond that I didn't bother much because they were lousy games.

Modern Lara has way more personality.
 

seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,464
Yes, because Lara should go back to be a one-dimensional sex symbol. Prefer reboot Lara, even more in the 3rd game, than any of the classic Lara personalities. Hell, classic Lara didn't have a personality.
 

Stoney Mason

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,920
She was a one dimensional sex doll in the old games

She wasn`t really whiny in the new ones

You're wrong
Yeah I completely disagree with this thread. Its fine to not like the reboot character but at least she feels like an actual human being in them. The old ones are fine for their time, but she's barely a character.
 

KodaRuss

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,858
Texas
I haven't played the third game yet so I dont have a full story. I didnt really find her whiny but I do believe the writing in the first two games is just terrible.

Not to bring Uncharted into every Tomb Raider thread but I thought Nadine and Chloe had great personalities/scenes in Lost Legacy as good examples.
 

Asriel

Member
Dec 7, 2017
2,451
Reboot Lara is kind of a broken person and it's fairly well-justified by the narrative, especially in Shadow:




In all, I think prefer this depiction to classic Lara, who always came off as a one-dimensional action hero in comparison.


I actually agree. Lara felt more like a hollow archetype in the previous games. I've come to appreciate her as a flawed character in the trilogy reboot.
 
Oct 30, 2017
9,215
Original Lara is iconic and unique as hell, there is nothing like her out there.

Reboot Lara..... oh god please DO NOT RETURN EVER AGAIN!!!!

Hope they also go back to the roots and basic of the gameplay as well... you know, EXPLORING TOMBS instead of 3rd person shooters with exploring elements.

We all loved the classic TR games because of the atmosphere and sense of isolation while exploring places no men have set foots into for ages, solving puzzles and collecting Items to advance the areas.

They should just Remake TR2 after studying the original game and then go from there and continue the trend.
 
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Tiago Rodrigues

Tiago Rodrigues

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 15, 2018
5,244
This thread just reminds me of how when Bend was focus testing Uncharted: Golden Abyss, the people invited to played the game regarded Chase as whiny, "bitchy" and other such things. I believe there's an excerpt in there about how Amy Hennig warned them about how people receive female characters unfairly in that regard and how they would need to pay extra attention to that aspect, unfortunately.

That's not the case here. You're talking to someone that spent god knows how many hours online defending Walter White's wife's character back when Breaking Bad was on because everyone kept calling her "a bitch" and "insufferable" when everything about her made sense. Now that's how you create a flawed and interesting character. That's what's like to have a decent writing team with you.

Maybe i shouldn't be mixing videogame writing and a tv show, but i'm trying to make a point.

You don't need to make Lara almost raped and getting beat up for 3 games to be interesting and to have depth. (which she never did have anyway).
 

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,399
It was good in the first game but became a bit exhausting in the latter two - how many times can they tease "this is where Lara Croft becomes THE Tomb Raider" only for nothing to happen? And we are tired of the backstory with her parents. Do something else.