I Hate The Word 'Consumer' (The Jimquisition) [read staff post]

[Com_Raven]

And I can't help but notice you keep ignoring people who say he admitted to being wrong and apologized for it, and keep peddling the "Jim lied" narrative.

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I just find it hard to believe that someone who actively makes up an insane theory to paint companies as evil was just "accidentally wrong". You can be wrong when someone asks you for info, andyou accidentally give the the wrong answer. That's a mistake. Making shit up by yourself and then blasting it out to a huge audience takes intent.

I certainly can't recall any case where I made the small mistake of making up a conspiracy theory :)

 

[kubev]

His point about how we're barely able to enjoy a new product before the next one is shoved down our throats is valid. Honestly, I find it kind of disturbing that people are actively disappointed about the lack of DLC for certain games, as if every single game needs it or something. What ever happened to enjoying a finished product that maybe doesn't need more content?

 

[Deleted member 60096]

I haven't seen Jim in awhile, and he is like a soul patch and fancy earring away from telling me the real secret to picking up chicks.

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This is incredibly ironic not only considering how socially progressive Jim is, but also since those red pill dicks are pretty much always super pro predatory capitalist methods, since that's what they tend to employ upon their audience/customers

 

[Uthred]

Because it implies your role is just to consume the content that is delivered to you. It's kind of hard to put into words, but it's sort of a mindless participation in an economic food chain. Like the humans in the movie Wall-E. You don't create anything, you just consume.

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Much like the video, bollocks. It doesn't imply that at all, it's simply describing your role in a legal, business or economic relationship. People can and do adopt multiple roles, often simultaneously. It's a specific term about a specific, usually transitory role, spinning it out into something greater than that is nonsense. Though evidently palatable nonsense given the thread.

 

[Deleted member 58846]

I just find it hard to believe that someone who actively makes up an insane theory to paint companies as evil was just "accidentally wrong". You can be wrong when someone asks you for info, andyou accidentally give the the wrong answer. That's a mistake. Making shit up by yourself and then blasting it out to a huge audience takes intent.

I certainly can't recall any case where I made the small mistake of making up a conspiracy theory :)

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See, you keep insisting he actively "made things up" and made up a conspiracy theory. All he did was share his theories on why game file sizes were so huge (and just as a reminder, he didn't say "so you can't install other games", he said that developers care so little about the amount of space a game's file size takes that they don't bother with compression and optimization), and when called out and proven wrong, admit to his mistake and apologize. That you continue to ascribe malintent and hold a grudge after that (and misremember what he said, all while railing on him for being wrong) says more about you than him.

 

[Asriel]

It was a stupid assumption which he apologized for and admitted to being wrong about, but yeah that means everything he has said before or will say after that has no merit whatsoever

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Well, to be fair, lying about that does bring to question his credibility as a whole.

 

[DNAbro]

I just find it hard to believe that someone who actively makes up an insane theory to paint companies as evil was just "accidentally wrong". You can be wrong when someone asks you for info, andyou accidentally give the the wrong answer. That's a mistake. Making shit up by yourself and then blasting it out to a huge audience takes intent.

I certainly can't recall any case where I made the small mistake of making up a conspiracy theory :)

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doing it right here man

 

[Datajoy]

One of the worst trends in modern society has been the re-configuring of the primary conception of common people from "workers" to "consumers".

 

[Akainu]

I totally admit I haven't watched the video, but I haven't got the will.

Lately his videos sound more and more tweets from Hard Drive or Abe Lincoln and the cloud.

Keeping the same level of "indignation" from serious matters (Activision Hong Kong) to trivial shit cheapens whatever message he tries to communicate.

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Enough will to shit post though.

 

[Com_Raven]

So your version of 'being the better person' is to just blatantly lie about this dude?

Grow up and let go of your silly grudges.

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Where is the lie in what I said? Did he not explicitly say that companies artificially increase install sizes To prevent you from installing other games?

 

[Wamb0wneD]

And who is at the receiving end of the abuse of the people riled up? A corporation? A CEO? Or the rank and file devs? Also, I can't help but notice you ignored the whole "made up a conspiracy theory" not.

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I would hardly call it "conspiracy theory". Yes he was wrong, and he apologized for it. Why are you holding his apology against him as some sort of evidence that he indeed said what he said? And again, he said "companies" do that, not devs.

If you honestly think Jim's audience is the one abusing random devs online, you do you. He made it clear so many times that he doesn't want to be part of the toxic side of gaming. He ridicules it to no end wherever he can, be it to dedicated segments like commmentocracy, BotW 7/10 memes, or adressing absue other devs receive.

The only thing Jim is toxic for is the current AAA climate/business model. Framing it as anything else is disingenuous and a simple attempt to silence one of the few relatively popular voices constantly shoving the industry a mirror in its face. And it's not the "omg this game sucks lazy devs ugh" mirror either, at least most of the time.

 

[Meia]

And I can't help but notice you keep ignoring people who say he admitted to being wrong and apologized for it, and keep peddling the "Jim lied" narrative.

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Everyone has a narrative they want to push these days, and it's not hard to see which side it usually comes down on.


But the person that pushes against pubs dehumanizing people who buy their products(i.e. "whales"), I usually side-eye people against someone like that. :p

 

[TheModestGun]

That's not what i said. Maybe read again.

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So is his observation about consumerism invalid or not then?

 

[Leviathan]

Ah yes let's equate one of the most socially progressive, non gender binary people in the industry to fucking MRAs and pickup artists.

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Those two are not exclusive and his profitable public persona has little to do with whom he may or may not be the rest of the day.

Also, progressive used to imply progress. He is nitpicky and pedantic far more often than he is insightful or impactful. He hunts for low-hanging fruit and feeds it to an narrow, receptive audience.

My point is that I don't think that he has established a reputation or his character so firmly that he is above jabs or criticism. He's just a YouTuber.

 

[JaggedSac]

When somebody makes up shit to rile up gamers and make them angry at developers over nothing, then I have a hard time appreciating their work, yes.

I also find it incredibly hypocritical to do shit like that, and in the other hand bemoan there toxicity of gamers, that he himself is happy to stoke with stunts like that.

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Well he did openly admit that negativity pays his bills, so there is that as well.

 

[Pryme]

He's not riling people up against devs but corporations. I love how people try to make Jim's criticism look like it's made on a personal level to discredit it.

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He certainly wasn't going after corporations when he did that deliberately hyperbolic review of We Happy Few and made a video that misconstrued their views so badly that it led to tons of social media harassment to the devs.

 

[Phendrift]

I don't really like it either honestly, can't really explain why lol. Just seems super cynical unless I'm in a sales thread

 

[Wamb0wneD]

Ah yes, so hearing some guy on the internet who is known to be misleading at times to proof his point confirm your biases makes you feel superior?

Thank you for confirming my point.

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Superior to what?
What is it then I'm closing myself off to in that "bubble"? What do I not want to see? What is it exactly I seek confirmation bias for in that "bubble"? Can you elaborate on that?

Because if it's for pro working rights and anti predatory business models, I'll happily stay in that "bubble".

PS: I wasn't the one who tried to act enlightened by not being in that bubble lol. The irony. I suppose you just want to feel superior to the people in that bubble who can't see the forest for the trees.

Thank you for confirming my point...I guess?

 

[oni-link]

Well, to be fair, lying about that does bring to question his credibility as a whole.

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Lying isn't the same as making a mistake or making a stupid assumption, generally people are happy to forgive people to make the odd stupid mistake

I mean, go through my post history, I've made some stupid assumptions and made some dumb mistakes too

That said, everyone is free to dislike or disagree with Jim on any issue they like, it's just really weird to me to see people framing one really dumb take as enough to undermine someone and their entire body of work. People are legit saying he 100% lied on purpose to get people to attack devs, and they're saying that in this thread, with no evidence for this other than a hunch

That's a real conspiracy theory right there

 

[Deleted member 60096]

Those two are not exclusive and his profitable public persona has little to do with whom he may or may not be the rest of the day.

Also, progressive used to imply progress. He is nitpicky and pedantic far more often than he is insightful or impactful. He hunts for low-hanging fruit and feeds it to an narrow, receptive audience.

My point is that I don't think that he has established a reputation or his character so firmly that he is above jabs or criticism. He's just a YouTuber.

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He's not nitpicky, he just shows more understanding of the ways that Captialism works and frames things unlike most of the libs on this site

 

[Com_Raven]

Well he did openly admit that negativity pays his bills, so there is that as well.

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Which is an entirely different problem, yes. YouTube actively promotes negativity and anger (and while I can't stand him, Sterling is very moderate compared to a lot of the "I AM SO ANGRY" gamer bullshit that YT promotes). That would go off-topic, but I am very concerned about the effect that YouTube has on society, and especially kids (just read a nice article today about how one of the biggest German gaming YouTubers is buddies with right-wing musicians...).

 

[Haubergeon]

A video critiquing hyper consumerism obviously wasn't going to be received well on a forum practically based on it, especially from Jim.

 

[oni-link]

Well he did openly admit that negativity pays his bills, so there is that as well.

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You could probably argue that negativity pays the bills for ResetEra too

 

[Wamb0wneD]

Which is an entirely different problem, yes. YouTube actively promotes negativity and anger (and while I can't stand him, Sterling is very moderate compared to a lot of the "I AM SO ANGRY" gamer bullshit that YT promotes). That would go off-topic, but I am very concerned about the effect that YouTube has on society, and especially kids (just read a nice article today about how one of the biggest German gaming YouTubers is buddies with right-wing musicians...).

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Even though you ignored my post I'd at least like to know who that youtuber is.

 

[Quantza]

It's just an economics term, dude.

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Sadly, it's a non-informative one.

Every investor needs to consume.
Some consumers invest.

It's too reductive like a lot of things in mainstream economics.

 

[Deleted member 49535]

The goal of any company is to make money. They are not your friends. I see nothing wrong with the word "consumer", that's exactly what you are to them, and there's nothing wrong with that.

You can replace it with another word if you feel like it, but its meaning will be exactly the same.

 

[Jamie OD]

I'm only here for The Dark Order stuff. A heel should have stolen Jim's catchphrase a long time ago.

 

[Noppie]

Dang, anyone got a summary? I went to watch the vid, but I really can't watch this man shooting Rasels from an Ekans and continue.

 

[Asriel]

Lying isn't the same as making a mistake or making a stupid assumption, generally people are happy to forgive people to make the odd stupid mistake

I mean, go through my post history, I've made some stupid assumptions and made some dumb mistakes too

That said, everyone is free to dislike or disagree with Jim on any issue they like, it's just really weird to me to see people framing one really dumb take as enough to undermine someone and their entire body of work. People are legit saying he 100% lied on purpose to get people to attack devs, and they're saying that in this thread, with no evidence for this other than a hunch

That's a real conspiracy theory right there

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If he wanted to be an actual journalist, he would actually look into the nonsense that he is claiming as fact instead of making an "assumption". That's a serious accusation that he is making, but sure, it's just a simple assumption. You don't make a claim like that unconsciously.

If any real journalist would make a false claim like that, it would absolutely undermine their entire body of work. The fact that people are so willingly defend him is mind boggling.

 

[oni-link]

If he wanted to be an actual journalist, he would actually look into the nonsense that he is claiming as fact instead of making an "assumption". That's a serious accusation that he is making, but sure, it's just a simple assumption. You don't make a claim like that unconsciously.

If any real journalist would make a false claim like that, it would absolutely undermine their entire body of work.

You're really giving him the benefit of the doubt?

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He's not a real journalist is he? He's a YouTuber, and it was a dumb Twitter hot take wasn't it? That he was rightly destroyed for making and that he rapidly apologized for after seeing how dumb his take was

By all means ignore his content, or disagree with his views, or robustly argue against them, but if people are going to throw him under the bus for that, it feels like they can't really argue convincingly against his arguments

Which is a shame, because he's as often wrong about things as he is right about them

 

[Quantza]

If any real journalist would make a false claim like that, it would absolutely undermine their entire body of work.

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Nope, and it shouldn't.

Even physics says that entropy of a system like this world of ours, will always be increasing (2nd law of thermodynamics).
Mistakes will happen. Nuance is sometimes needed.

And secondly, however extreme he is, this is caused of course by the rapid progress of technology in capitalism, not just himself.

Like I posted earlier, all investors consume. So, 'consumer' is a bad abstraction. What is it actually hiding?
The term 'consumer' ignores the externalities of processes in economics, whether good or bad.

 

[Asriel]

He's not a real journalist is he? He's a YouTuber, and it was a dumb Twitter hot take wasn't it? That he was rightly destroyed for making and that he rapidly apologized for after seeing how dumb his take was

By all means ignore his content, or disagree with his views, or robustly argue against them, but if people are going to throw him under the bus for that, it feels like they can't really argue convincingly against his arguments

Which is a shame, because he's as often wrong about things as he is right about them

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This is a false equivalence involving two aspects that gave nothing to do with each other nothing to do with each other. I haven't watched this specific video, which is why I haven't commented on it specifically. I have for the most part, and have since his videos for several reasons, including the lie (yes. lie) that he made regarding install sizes.

In my opinion, he is a hack that leeches off the negativity and toxicity of gamer discourse online. That likely won't change unless his own methods for discourse change.

 

[Castor Archer]

I think the big problem with "consumer" discourse is exactly that it is economic in origin, and it is weird and creepy that people are adopting economic terms to refer to the way they interact with creative works and art in general.

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I love to consume #content of my favorite intellectual property by my favorite AAA game studio and consume more #content from various #content creators!

DaVinci is my favorite #content creator personally.

 

[Asriel]

Nope, and it shouldn't.

Even physics says that entropy of a system like this world of ours, will always be increasing (2nd law of thermodynamics).
Mistakes will happen. Nuance is sometimes needed.

And secondly, however extreme he is, this is caused of course by the rapid progress of technology in capitalism, not just himself.

Like I posted earlier, all investors consume. So, 'consumer' is a bad abstraction. What is it actually hiding?
The term 'consumer' ignores the externalities of processes in economics, whether good or bad.

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And this is why video game discourse is terrible.

 

[Deleted member 19066]

One of the worst trends in modern society has been the re-configuring of the primary conception of common people from "workers" to "consumers".

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I was gonna make this point but you beat me to it! Getting people to think in only terms of "producer" and "consumer" is a great way of obfuscating social relations of production.

 

[Andalusia]

I've forced myself to watch a lot of Sterling's video and I honestly still can't see the appeal of them. Don't think they're very well edited, don't think they're very well acted, don't think they're very insightful or well researched and Jim is a personality doesn't do it for me.

 

[Quantza]

And this is why video game discourse is terrible.

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What do you mean? That he should be ignored or punished for single statements, or that people should check for positives/negatives before providing a response?

 

[Etrian Darkness]

Ok consumer.

 

[oni-link]

This is a false equivalence involving two aspects that gave nothing to do with each other nothing to do with each other. I haven't watched this specific video, which is why I haven't commented on it specifically. I have for the most part, and have since his videos for several reasons, including the lie (yes. lie) that he made regarding install sizes.

In my opinion, he is a hack that leeches off the negativity and toxicity of gamer discourse online. That likely won't change unless his own methods for discourse change.

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It's only a lie because you believe it's a lie, and you're entitled to believe that if you like. I admire your faith, and don't think your overall opinion on his work has impacted that at all lol

 

[Deleted member 48897]

I was gonna make this point but you beat me to it! Getting people to think in only terms of "producer" and "consumer" is a great way of obfuscating social relations of production.

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Similar to how hype marketing has turned every game into revolutionary world-saving priceless gifts from god until they become contaminated by the presence of those lazy devs trying to get a quick buck.

 

[Asriel]

It's only a lie because you believe it's a lie, and you're entitled to believe that if you like. I admire your faith, and don't think your overall opinion on his work has impacted that at all lol

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Lie. Falsehood. Untruth. Whatever you want to call it to make you feel better.

 

[oni-link]

Lie. Falsehood. Untruth. Whatever you want to call it to make you feel better.

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So in your world view, mistakes are impossible

People who once believed the sun revolved around the Earth were all liars

I aspire to be as saintly as you, Sir Asriel, a poster who has never made a mistake, has never been wrong, has never made an assumption that hasn't been correct

You are an inspiration to us all

 

[Asriel]

So in your world view, mistakes are impossible

People who once believed the sun revolved around the Earth were all liars

I aspire to be as saintly as you, Sir Asriel, a poster who has never made a mistake, has never been wrong, has never made an assumption that hasn't been correct

You are an inspiration to us all

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So many wrongdoings can be conveniently reduced to a tiny mistake, lol.

 

[Gunny T Highway]

The term itself is fine, it is the overuse of the term that is the problem.

 

[Deleted member 58846]

So many wrongdoings can be conveniently reduced to mistake, lol.

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When does one accept a mistake as one, rather than willful wrongdoing?

 

[Nerokis]

I'll have to watch the video when I get home. Not really a Jim Sterling fan, but for some reason I'm especially interested in his take on this.

For me, something's seemed off about the usage of the term consumer for a long time, with people frequently invoking their consumer rights in the context of justifying toxic responses to mostly petty bullshit.

I suspect it partly comes down to the term being situated around a consumerist core, where the main battle lines are drawn between consumption and production as opposed to labor and capital, and the result is often a rhetoric that is self-serving, lacking in empathy, and generally shortsighted.

 

[Asriel]

When does one accept a mistake as one, rather than willful wrongdoing?

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So because it was just a "mistake", people should be OK with it? A mistake that blatantly misled a large following whom were already foaming at the mouth against "corporations" (aka, developers). I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand why this "mistake", which could have been entirely avoided if he actually did his due diligence, is unforgivable to some?

 

[Deleted member 58846]

So because it was just a "mistake", people should be OK with it? A mistake that blatantly misled a large following whom were already foaming at the mouth against "corporations" (aka, developers). I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand why this "mistake", which could have been entirely avoided if he actually did his due diligence, is unforgivable to some?

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I'm not asking you to "forgive" his mistake, that's up to you, I'm asking you to stop misattributing intent without proof.

 

[Twister]

What does this dude not hate? I don't watch him but he keeps having his videos posted here and they're literally always negative. I think he needs a break from this industry

 

[Patch13]

I agree the word has always had a negative connotation because it reduces people to marketing-speak categories and classes us as something like cud-chewing cattle. But it's what we use currently rather than customer or something else. I don't think the meaning of this word has changed over time at all, we use it the same way we use customer, but the meaning is still "anti-consumer", ahem.

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Consumers are not customers. Source: a corporate marketing exec who was shocked that I'd talk about a consumer in the same way that I'd talk about a customer. Customers are corporate partners who deserve respect, apparently, while a consumer is a meat bag at the end of a supply chain. (The exec didn't put it quite that crudely—I'm translating :-) )

I dislike it when people apply a disparaging label like "consumer" voluntarily. We're players, enthusiasts, people. Not meat bags with wallets, no matter what the corporate folks might think.