• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Red Liquorice

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,066
UK
I agree the word has always had a negative connotation because it reduces people to marketing-speak categories and classes us as something like cud-chewing cattle. But it's what we use currently rather than customer or something else. I don't think the meaning of this word has changed over time at all, we use it the same way we use customer, but the meaning is still "anti-consumer", ahem.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
When somebody makes up shit to rile up gamers and make them angry at developers over nothing, then I have a hard time appreciating their work, yes.

I also find it incredibly hypocritical to do shit like that, and in the other hand bemoan there toxicity of gamers, that he himself is happy to stoke with stunts like that.

Unless you have seen otherwise, and in which case I'm more than happy to concede my point, he didn't deliberately make up a lie to try and piss people off

My understanding is he made an assumption which lacked understanding of game development, and then used that to come to a conclusion that was clearly wrong. This was highlighted to him and he immediately apologized

It was 100% a really dumb take, but like I say, unless I've missed something there wasn't, as you imply, any intent to rile up gamers to attack developers
 

lunanto

Banned
Dec 1, 2017
7,648
User warned: thread whining
I really don't understand why do we have to give any credit to the opinion of this person. Do we really have to create a new thread with every new video he pulls out, even when the topic he brings out is absolutely irrelevant to the general context of the industry of videogames?
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
"He May lie, but at least he is not afraid to speak his mind" is a great summary of 2019 society :)
Except you are blatantly misrepresenting how things went down. Everyone in media makes a mistake at times or misunderstands something. When someone cops to screwing up, usually that means they are willing to take responsibility. Calling it "lying" is its very own version twisting reality.
 

Aranjah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,185
Which, I would argue the issue is not with the fact that the consumer is consuming, but rather how they are consuming.

Mindless consumption and being a mindless consumer that gives up your agency/power in a transaction is an issue. Just because we call those people a customer doesn't make them magically change their poor spending habits. It isn't a word problem, but the adjective before the word that is the problem.

Rather than attack the word we should look at how we consume and what we can do better.
The issue (at least, as presented in the video) is about the word "consumer" inherently implying mindless consumption, and that being normalized as an expectation by consumer and customer becoming largely synonymous these days. I don't think he's saying that changing the word would magically fix people's habits, just saying "I'm not okay with this normalization and I'm going to call it out."
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
The issue (at least, as presented in the video) is about the word "consumer" inherently implying mindless consumption, and that being normalized as an expectation by consumer and customer becoming largely synonymous these days. I don't think he's saying that changing the word would magically fix people's habits, just saying "I'm not okay with this normalization and I'm going to call it out."
Consuming isn't an inherently mindless activity.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
Except you are blatantly misrepresenting how things went down. Everyone in media makes a mistake at times or misunderstands something. When someone cops to screwing up, usually that means they are willing to take responsibility. Calling it "lying" is its very own version twisting reality.

Ironically blatantly misrepresenting how things went down is actually a great summery of 2019 society
 

Com_Raven

Brand Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,103
Europa
Unless you have seen otherwise, and in which case I'm more than happy to concede my point, he didn't deliberately make up a lie to try and piss people off

My understanding is he made an assumption which lacked understanding of game development, and then used that to come to a conclusion that was clearly wrong. This was highlighted to him and he immediately apologized

It was 100% a really dumb take, but like I say, unless I've missed something there wasn't, as you imply, any intent to rile up gamers to attack developers

If I tell a bunch of people "hey oni-link intentionally does this thing X to limit your choices and prevent you from doing what you want to do", wouldn't you agree that it was probably not aimed at endearing you to the people reading this message?
 

PepsimanVsJoe

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,121
I really don't understand why do we have to give any credit to the opinion of this person. Do we really have to create a new thread with every new video he pulls out, even when the topic he brings out is absolutely irrelevant to the general context of the industry of videogames?
As long as he's popular he'll continue to get threads.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
"He might lie but atleast he's confirming my bias"

That sounds like 2019 in a nutshell
Seriously what are the two of you talking about? To my knowledge, what he did wasn't "blatantly lying".

Am I missing some new discovery about Jim Sterling. Also, even if that is the case, what does it have to do with making a salient point about the idea of consumerism? Are some of you so wired into the consumerism as an identity that even questioning it gets you all riled up? I for one...don't welcome our corporate overlords.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,014
UK
If I tell a bunch of people "hey oni-link intentionally does this thing X to limit your choices and prevent you from doing what you want to do", wouldn't you agree that it was probably not aimed at endearing you to the people reading this message?

If it was true, then it's just the truth, if you're telling people that and you know it's a lie, then yeah it sucks

If you're telling people that because you made a dumb mistake and later found out it was wrong, and then apologized, then I'd probably not think you're a piece of shit forever

Edit: I'm just impressed you've never ever been wrong and you've never ever made any mistakes in your life, congrats. You're a better person than me
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,316
Seriously what are the two of you talking about? To my knowledge, what he did wasn't "blatantly lying".

Am I missing some new discovery about Jim Sterling. Also, even if that is the case, what does it have to do with making a salient point about the idea of consumerism? Are some of you so wired into the consumerism as an identity that even questioning it gets you all riled up? I for one...don't welcome our corporate overlords.
It has nothing to do with "corporate overlords". It's a term used in economics and well as policy-making. Go do a Ctrl+F of the word "consumer" in something like the Fair Credit Reporting Act and tell me how many results you get back.
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
It has nothing to do with "corporate overlords". It's a term used in economics and well as policy-making. Go do a Ctrl+F of the word "consumer" in something like the Fair Credit Reporting Act and tell me how many results you get back.
I know exactly where its used and the context of how its used in economics. That's not the point. It still instills and reinforces the idea of modern life is that our only real purpose to to buy shit. Depressing. Dehumanizing.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,120
Toronto
He may not like the baggage that comes with the word "consumer", but that baggage is the specific reason that word is used.
 

Zips

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
Naw Jim, that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. You just cannot change the meaning of words to suit your agenda.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I think the big problem with "consumer" discourse is exactly that it is economic in origin, and it is weird and creepy that people are adopting economic terms to refer to the way they interact with creative works and art in general.
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
I've been using customer for a long time myself. Consumer equates to a willing part of the corporation/consumer dichotomy in my mind.

As a sidenote, i wonder if it's even possible to ever have a Sterling thread without the same collection of sad trolls coming in to shitpost endlessly.
Is it willing? You have to consume to survive, customer sounds more willing to me.
 

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,450
Actually then again, once you realize that Jim's content is a vehicle for anti-capitalist rhetoric, it becomes clear why some people react with a ...rather intense dislike of it
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,290
I know exactly where its used and the context of how its used in economics. That's not the point. It still instills and reinforces the idea of modern life is that our only real purpose to to buy shit. Depressing. Dehumanizing.
So why are you misusing the term to something it's not?

Just because some people on the internet want to be edgy that doesn't change the meaning of a word which has existed for centuries.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,120
Toronto
What baggage? I only know it as a rough translation of a word in my native language that is wildly used from politics, to magazines and documentaries
Because it implies your role is just to consume the content that is delivered to you. It's kind of hard to put into words, but it's sort of a mindless participation in an economic food chain. Like the humans in the movie Wall-E. You don't create anything, you just consume.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,316
Also, an insight into every single business in the world, everywhere. Customers are the other businesses that they enter into a business relationship with. Consumers are individuals who purchase the goods & services. This language is made very clear so that there is no confusion when discussing matters that relate to a company's customers and matters that relate to a company's consumers.
 

CHC

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,246
lol

Trying to elevate the idea of fucking buying a video game into something it was never meant to be. His work is so unimportant, it'd be refreshing if he just admitted "yeah I complain about the video game industry, that's what I do," instead of acting like some grand revolutionary. The dude is like a living "pre order cancelled" rant.

I really don't understand why do we have to give any credit to the opinion of this person. Do we really have to create a new thread with every new video he pulls out, even when the topic he brings out is absolutely irrelevant to the general context of the industry of videogames?

I really wonder this too, he never even does any legwork to find interesting or novel topics either, like an actual journalist might attempt to. He just comments on whatever gaming controversy was big last week.
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,874
So why are you misusing the term to something it's not?

Just because some people on the internet want to be edgy that doesn't change the meaning of a word which has existed for centuries.

Cause if using it in that way is becoming more common then why wouldn't you address it?
 

TheModestGun

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
3,781
So why are you misusing the term to something it's not?

Just because some people on the internet want to be edgy that doesn't change the meaning of a word which has existed for centuries.
You understand that words can still have implications beyond their explicit meanings right.

The idea that consumerism is not such great thing isn't exactly new in itself.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,290
I really don't understand why do we have to give any credit to the opinion of this person. Do we really have to create a new thread with every new video he pulls out, even when the topic he brings out is absolutely irrelevant to the general context of the industry of videogames?
I really wonder this too, he never even does any legwork to find interesting or novel topics either, like an actual journalist might attempt to. He just comments on whatever gaming controversy was big last week.
He confirms peoples biases and keeps them happily in their bubble. It's the same reason why racists watch fox news.

Edit: To clarify i'm not equating people with racists but rather that they stay in their feel good bubble to confirm their biases like lots of other groups (including fox news viewers).
 
Last edited:

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
I am to be honest baffled that people still care about his stuff after he recently admitted to randomly making up conspiracies to rile up people agains developers ("install sizes are artificially inflated to prevent you from installing other games").
He's not riling people up against devs but corporations. I love how people try to make Jim's criticism look like it's made on a personal level to discredit it.
 

modoversus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,674
México
I too avoid the term, because normally I see it used by gamergators and similar like "this (inclusion of women/Minorities/etc) is anti-consumer" or "I am a consumer therefore the medium and those who work on it must bend to my will".
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
He confirms peoples biases and keeps them happily in their bubble.
When I get out of my bubble, will I finally see the light of how everything in this industry is fine? I guess as soon I stop watching his stuff I will realize how unionization sucks, how lootboxes are actually great, and that bullshit like actual ingame casinos with real money are totally fine.

Thank you for reminding me how it looks outside of that "bubble".
 

Burly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,071
User warned: off-topic trolling and derailing
I haven't seen Jim in awhile, and he is like a soul patch and fancy earring away from telling me the real secret to picking up chicks.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Is it willing? You have to consume to survive, customer sounds more willing to me.

You're right, maybe willing is indeed not the correct word. A customer has, in my mind, an equal weight and importance in the trade as the entity providing the goods. There are two sides that must be satisfied for the trade to exist. A consumer is essentially a non-entity that can easily be replaced by another consumer with no loss to the trade taking place. It also puts the client in a servile relationship, where they exist to consume what is produced.

This all amounts to not much more than semantics to most people in the end, but i agree with Jim here, customer just feels better to me.
 

Zips

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
I feel like if the last few years have proved anything, it's that people absolutely can do that. Fairly easily.
As a collective, sure, maybe and only in very specific cases. It doesn't happen because one person with a big mouth doesn't like a word. Especially a word that is rooted in economics and has been for centuries.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,290
When I get out of my bubble, will I finally see the light of how everything in this industry is fine? I guess as soon I stop watching his stuff I will realize how unionization sucks, how lootboxes are actually great, and that bullshit like actual ingame casinos with real money are totally fine.

Thank you for reminding me how it looks outside of that "bubble".
Ah yes, so hearing some guy on the internet who is known to be misleading at times to proof his point confirm your biases makes you feel superior?

Thank you for confirming my point.
 
Nov 3, 2017
650
It sometimes pains me to know that people who could be interested in things mentioned in the video (like the history of Edward Bernays) feel the need just to ask why are we having these threads.

I'll tell you why we have these treads. Because while Jim Sterling is a narcissist, he is also very good at what he does and very often talks about sensitive topics. Because knowing something about the history of propaganda (as Bernays) called it (the word marketing wasn't invented) will enlighten about a lot of different aspects of modern society. This is where it all comes from. Read his book "propaganda". Or watch the videos. Both are good. One of them is scary, though, at least in hindsight.

Jim is using "consumer" just as a vehicle to talk about the manipulation of the human mind. And that's good.
 

Com_Raven

Brand Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,103
Europa
He's not riling people up against devs but corporations. I love how people try to make Jim's criticism look like it's made on a personal level to discredit it.

And who is at the receiving end of the abuse of the people riled up? A corporation? A CEO? Or the rank and file devs? Also, I can't help but notice you ignored the whole "made up a conspiracy theory" not.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I am to be honest baffled that people still care about his stuff after he recently admitted to randomly making up conspiracies to rile up people agains developers ("install sizes are artificially inflated to prevent you from installing other games").

So your version of 'being the better person' is to just blatantly lie about this dude?

Grow up and let go of your silly grudges.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
And who is at the receiving end of the abuse of the people riled up? A corporation? A CEO? Or the rank and file devs? Also, I can't help but notice you ignored the whole "made up a conspiracy theory" not.
And I can't help but notice you keep ignoring people who say he admitted to being wrong and apologized for it, and keep peddling the "Jim lied" narrative.
 

Khoryos

Member
Nov 5, 2019
443
I think the big problem with "consumer" discourse is exactly that it is economic in origin, and it is weird and creepy that people are adopting economic terms to refer to the way they interact with creative works and art in general.
Nonsense, it's perfectly normal to adopt a term used by marketers to dehumanise and strip the agency from the geese they gavage and identify with it!
 

Deleted member 60096

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 20, 2019
1,295
Is it willing? You have to consume to survive, customer sounds more willing to me.
Not sure whether this was your intention but this is honestly a pretty good reason to not use the word consumer, since as you said we need to consume to survive, so calling ourselves consumers when it comes to products outside of the basic necessities is pretty strange since we don't actually need these things
That's not what i said. Maybe read again.
Surely you can understand how some may have seen your post that way. Your phrasing wasn't the best if that wasn't your intention.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,622
I've always disliked the word consumer as well and much prefer the word "customer".
To me consumer has a connotation that I'm consuming what they put out without much regard for my experience afterwards, rather than buying something I appreciate and listening to what I have to say about my experience with it.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
I haven't seen Jim in awhile, and he is like a soul patch and fancy earring away from telling me the real secret to picking up chicks.

Ah yes let's equate one of the most socially progressive, non gender binary people in the industry to fucking MRAs and pickup artists.