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saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Really wish Sterling threads would be monitored more sternly.

For months now they've been about 40% derail (like that dude who's been going at it since the very first page), 40% personal attacks and maybe the rest is about the actual video.

Yep.

Era needs to decide what to do with Sterling threads. Either create a megathread so the assholes can keep away, or if weekly threads are allowed, they need to be monitored much better.

Dude, no one gives a fuck that you personally don't like Jim Sterling. For the fiftieth time in a row.
 

gblues

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,484
Tigard, OR
Once you have enjoyed a certain amount of abuse from gamers citing Jim as proof of why you are horrible for working for a certain company, you may come to disagree :) If not, more power to you.

How fucking petty do you have to be to come in and shit up a Jim Sterling thread with your baseless nonsense just because some shitty people cited him at you?

This is really unprofessional behavior. Do better.
 

Com_Raven

Brand Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,103
Europa
Yep.

Era needs to decide what to do with Sterling threads. Either create a megathread so the assholes can keep away, or if weekly threads are allowed, they need to be monitored much better.

Dude, no one gives a fuck that you personally don't like Jim Sterling. For the fiftieth time in a row.

Sorry, my apologies for being an "asshole" and not liking your idol. I didn't know Jim was excempt from the general Era policy of allowing the mentioning past missteps in threads. I will try to do better and not be an "asshole" anymore.
 
Get back on topic

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,393
Official Staff Communication
Please return to the topic discussed in Jim Sterling's video, and stop derailing the thread with past, unrelated tweets. Thanks.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
Sorry, my apologies for being an "asshole" and not liking your idol. I didn't know Jim was excempt from the general Era policy of allowing the mentioning past missteps in threads. I will try to do better and not be an "asshole" anymore.

The asshole bit was not directed at you. But feel free to wear it you think it fits.

The problem here is that you seem to see this thread as a battleground between fanboys of different colours. Maybe you need a better mindset. Jim Sterling is not my idol. I have no idols. My purpose here was to watch the video and then discuss it with other people. Unfortunately, as per usual, this thread has been hijacked by people with no interest in doing that. All they care about is promoting their Sterling hate agenda, no matter what the topic is. We see this in literally every one of his threads. And it's fucking tiring.

You know what's the best course of action for threads you are not interested in? Ignore them.

EDIT: sorry just saw the mod post. Com_Raven feel free to pm me if you want to keep up this discussion. I won't be replying in the thread
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,170
I don't think it's bad to want to use another word, but "consumer" accurately describes the relationship being described when the word is employed. He even describes the increased usage of "consumer" as coinciding with a shift from a "needs"-based purchase to a "desire"-based purchase, which describes the entire video game industry.

like the desire to promote an alternative word, to me, is like functionally looking away from the real life practices happening here
 
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Deleted member 6215

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,087
I've been pushing back against the term "consumer" in everyday usage for a long time and I'm glad people like Jim are picking up on it. Feel free to use it all you want in your marketing or economics theory class, but I will forever be your customer - assuming you treat me that way.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,231
It's why I think it's hilarious that people here applaud so much for "pro-consumer" moves. Like way to go, you're championing that you're just a dollar sign to some rich assholes.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,589
Sigh; no.

It's a point of reference for how people relate to other groups of people. Trying to quibble about it's applications regarding classism or whatever is needless complication; there have been consumers since the dawn of mankind, and tying it to any one economic school (as if it's unique to capitalism) or wanting to make things less clear just because of a very selective personal reason is just...well, no. Come on. He might as well say he doesn't like the word "business" as if yeah, sure, *that's* the trouble. This is very literally just personal semantics, and smacks of blind shots in the dark to have A View On Something.
There's no way to push back on it because it's how he feels, but at the same time no discussion to be had because it's more or less a anecdotal truism. He feels one way; I disagree. He think's is bad; I disagree. There's nothing to talk about beyond saying "I agree" or "I disagree" on an incredibly surface level - and kinda solipsistic - concept, because any more in-depth examination could have just as many entirely interchangeable words.
 
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SparkleMotion

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
2,812
User Banned (5 Days): Drive-By Trolling; Prior Bans for Similar Behavior
Does he whine at all about AAA games in this one?
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
It's why I think it's hilarious that people here applaud so much for "pro-consumer" moves. Like way to go, you're championing that you're just a dollar sign to some rich assholes.

No act is more "pro-consumer" move than giving away work for free, but how often does that happen? Basically never. "Pro-consumer" just means in practice "not as bad as it could be". It's tied directly to that whole Overton Window thing
 
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daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,904
co-sign thread title and would add "content" as well as a word nobody around games should use anymore ever
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
The most hilarious thing about getting riled about customer versus consumer is that they use most of the same letters and mean very close to the same thing from the perspective of sales and marketing.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,824
I am to be honest baffled that people still care about his stuff after he recently admitted to randomly making up conspiracies to rile up people agains developers ("install sizes are artificially inflated to prevent you from installing other games").

Lolwut? Seriously? :D
 

Zem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,971
United Kingdom
I just find it hard to believe that someone who actively makes up an insane theory to paint companies as evil was just "accidentally wrong". You can be wrong when someone asks you for info, andyou accidentally give the the wrong answer. That's a mistake. Making shit up by yourself and then blasting it out to a huge audience takes intent.

I certainly can't recall any case where I made the small mistake of making up a conspiracy theory :)

Is this satire? You literally made up a conspiracy theory in this same post. You're doing exactly what you accused Jim of doing but at least he had the humility to apologise.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,823
While technically we are customers to major corporations, it's kind of hard to feel like one when the interface between us is so abstracted. Technically they should care about me as a customer, but realistically they have so many customers that they do their best to buffer themselves from us. As much as possible has been automated, and very often the limits of what the customer service reps we can reach can do to help is minimal. Realistically they don't care if they lose me specifically as a customer, they only care about cumulative customer losses. Frankly customers are treated as consumers, and it's hard to make an argument that we aren't as long as we tolerate being treated this way. I'd reserve customer for a business relationship where someone has actual value to the business as an individual.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
The most hilarious thing about getting riled about customer versus consumer is that they use most of the same letters and mean very close to the same thing from the perspective of sales and marketing.
Yeah, from the perspective of the people who have the job of selling stuff a.k.a manipulating people, it absolutely means the same.

As a human being, I prefer the term that insinuates some sort of respect towards the person these people try to sell things, over the one that makes it sound like I'm a brainless wallet ready to get sucked dry.

One sounds like the two parties have at least a modicum of respect for each other, the other sounds like they see me as mindless cattle. Which, granted, they often do.
Does he whine at all about AAA games in this one?
Are you capable of watching a video before engaging with a topic? Why is this important?
 

Deleted member 25600

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,701
I too have been trying to avoid using the word "consumer" recently. It implies there's no transaction taking place, and that a person has no agency in their purchasing decisions. That it's all an obligation.
 

Dogo Mojo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,176
I'll stop calling people "consumers" when they stop acting like "consumers". The gaming community is guilty of the practice even if people may not like to admit it.

A game could come out today and people will almost immediately begin talking about the sequel. Games are released alll the time even with absolutely glowing praise from both the community and critics but be completely forgotten about by the end of the year. This is not exclusive to games but it's a very prevalent part of the industry. people consume the products and move on.

A word like consumer doesn't remove your agency from the equation unless you allow it to and behave the way that marketing teams assume you will based on what they view as trends.
 
Oct 28, 2019
442
I don't know why people don't just accept Jim Sterling for what he is, an internet personality/video game pundit. I understand his point of view and sometimes I agree other times I don't. He clearly loves preaching to a choir so you can almost guess where his opinion is going to land based on the topic. I just don't understand why people get so worked up over what is clearly a personality. He's like a few steps above Dunkey and the angry video game nerd. What is even the discussion here? He didn't like a word? And? Slow outrage week I guess.
 
Oct 28, 2019
442
Here's a hint: it's not really about the word
OH ok he brought something new to the table to discuss about the meaning of the word that people had never thought of before so people can reevaluate the meaning or he just gave us a basic history (that was boring) and doesn't like the connotation behind the word and won't say it. Hmm one is a discussion the other is just making a statement. Like I said slow outrage day.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I mean it's not deeply insightful as far as the manner in which capitalistic forces ruin art / creative expression in general has been detailed for a very long time. and quite thoroughly at that. In that sense, sure, he's not really breaking new ground in this video.

The problem is that while we talk about how, for example, annualized sequels are bad, microtransactions make games worse for profit, and everyone's trying to find new ways to get people away from buying and into renting games, too many people are invested in the industry as a status symbol because of how expensive it is, and as a result the industry has no reason to change despite the systemic flaws being nearly obvious from a critical analysis viewpoint. People who participate in this culture talk about the issues in the rather unhealthy way that Sterling mentions here because they want to cosplay as capitalists, through their fandoms.
 

Loanshark

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,637
OH ok he brought something new to the table to discuss about the meaning of the word that people had never thought of before so people can reevaluate the meaning or he just gave us a basic history (that was boring) and doesn't like the connotation behind the word and won't say it. Hmm one is a discussion the other is just making a statement. Like I said slow outrage day.
This is the issue with Jim in general, he struggles greatly when he has to come up with his own stuff. Unless he makes his usual reactionary vids on a hotly discussed gaming topic where he regurgitates the prevailing forum/reddit opinions, he is seldom insightful. This time he at least tries being somewhat original, which i appreciate, but you can easily see why he mostly just sticks with reactionary vids on last weeks gaming news.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,586
I too have been trying to avoid using the word "consumer" recently. It implies there's no transaction taking place, and that a person has no agency in their purchasing decisions. That it's all an obligation.
I agree that Customer is better than consumer.

Will use customer from now on.
The two goes hand in hand though, now more than ever. You don't necessarily have to pay in order to use products or services today; payment can be postponed, scattered or even fully replaced by advertisements or in exchange for personal information. Just because you're not paying doesn't mean you're not a customer. :p
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
I always liked the word consumer because In my mind I was that fat blob from the end of Resident Evil 2 on the PS1. You know, the very final boss on scenario 2 on the train.

Like that thing would drag itself forward and consume things. I found it empowering, I am serious. I like the thought of "consuming" like some mindless monster that just grows fatter and fatter the more it consumes, becoming all powerful and unstoppable. I am consuming your posts as I read them, I consume nutrients from food, I consume knowledge from Wikipedia.

But while I am not bothered by the word it was a good video today, I'm glad he dropped those overly dramatic voice overs. His video just seemed more mature today.
 
Dec 31, 2017
1,729
Good video.

The part that he touched on about politics hit home.

Former Detroit mayor Dennis Archer and governor Rick Snyder were both fond of referring to citizens as "customers". Always rubbed menthe wrong way. I was too young to make note of Archers style but Snyder ran the state like he was a CEO and the voters were his employees.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,291
Sigh; no.

It's a point of reference for how people relate to other groups of people. Trying to quibble about it's applications regarding classism or whatever is needless complication; there have been consumers since the dawn of mankind, and tying it to any one economic school (as if it's unique to capitalism) or wanting to make things less clear just because of a very selective personal reason is just...well, no. Come on. He might as well say he doesn't like the word "business" as if yeah, sure, *that's* the trouble. This is very literally just personal semantics, and smacks of blind shots in the dark to have A View On Something.
There's no way to push back on it because it's how he feels, but at the same time no discussion to be had because it's more or less a anecdotal truism. He feels one way; I disagree. He think's is bad; I disagree. There's nothing to talk about beyond saying "I agree" or "I disagree" on an incredibly surface level - and kinda solipsistic - concept, because any more in-depth examination could have just as many entirely interchangeable words.

This. It's like talking to a freshman philosophy student.

The semantic argument is bad by definition (because semantics are inherently silly; language is about communication, so if you understand what they meant, then they spoke correctly). And the non-semantic argument is dumb because everyone understands the usage of the word and don't care at all.

Probably going to get me actioned, but Jim seems to have had a slow week if this is what we're supposed to be upset about. I legitimately think he's smarter than this argument would indicate.
 

Militaratus

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,212
I personally see myself more as an investor like on Kickstarter, if I see a product I like I invest in the company like a pledge and get a product as a thank you for giving them the ability to continue to exist. If I don't like their products, I don't invest in them and take my money elsewhere.
 

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,216
How come all threads on specific YouTube videos always turn into a war tribunal over the content creator?

Whether it's Dunkey, AJ or Jim... it's really hard to find the posts that engage with the topic at hand.

I'll join the other posters who have stated that they'd like stricter moderation in these topics.
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,206
I generally agree with Jim on this. Consumer always rubs me the wrong way; I generally don't appreciate being called one. It's not a big deal; it's just one of those sterile corporate terms I try to avoid where I can.
 

esserius

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,296
I don't really think the pace of linguistics is honestly keeping up with technology. What consumer meant ten years ago is vastly different than what it means today. The idea that someone could be a "Youtuber" is honestly still baffling to me because what any given person on Youtube could do / has done is so diverse. There's everything from journalism to op-ed to biographies to history and beyond. We have a far more direct connection to companies than we ever had in the past, and even when they were fraught before, they're even more deeply fraught now, as those connections have greatly upended what a corporation even is. Consumers don't consume media the way they used to. Even the way games are frequently consumed is different from the past, and that has greatly changed what the term itself means but we haven't actually created or adjusted linguistic terms for these technologically more connected terminologies. So I agree that at least in theory, from a historical point of view, consumer isn't really a word we can use, because the term itself comes from a time when the social, political and economic connections we made with businesses were far different than they are now.
 

the_kaotek1

Member
Oct 25, 2017
849
Well I really enjoyed this video. But then I hate the term "consumer" for much the same reasons Jim does. Hope he does more videos along these kinds of lines.

Edit: Patch13 spot on post right there.
 

residentgrigo

Banned
Oct 30, 2019
3,726
Germany
"Read staff post"... it´s a Jim video alright. I agree with it of course but it´s a bit of a remix. Not much for Jim oldtimers like me here. Quite fascinating that even such a middle of the road one got derailed on basically the first page. Him and Kojima should team-up. His new dance in the F76 update is rather funny btw:


I miss the old Jimquisition set/esthetic but the new one has its charms. And Crab People!