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I hate the Perfect Dark Zero redesign of Joanna Dark so much.

60fps

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
I have no better description but it looks bad in a typical western way. When you look at human characters from early Halo or Metroid Prime 3, they all look equally bad. I don't know why but I feel Japanese designers do stuff like characters, faces, emotions or subtle animation like hair better, even in older games.

This is Japanese character design from 2005, not a AAA release but a rather niche horror game:

93Uq8ct.jpg


I recently played Doom 2016 for the first time and I think its human faces still look worse than this.
 
Outrun

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,782
Reinhardt Schneider said:
I remember being hyped for Perfect Dark Zero and ready to buy a Xbox until i saw Joanna's design. It was so vulgar, so... Microsoft'd (Can't find a better term, sorry) it made me feel disgusted.
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Perhaps you should spend a few more moments thinking of a better term....

PDZ does feel like a departure to the original though.
 
daTRUballin

daTRUballin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,139
Portland, Oregon
Gundam said:
IDK about Kinect Sports but Sea of Thieves has a pretty distinctly different art style from PDZ. Both are still very "Rare", but I would not have ever thought that they looked the same, or even compatible.
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Probably true. SoT is probably farther removed from PDZ's style, but I remember when Kinect Sports Rivals was coming out, there was a promotional image of some characters from the game that SCREAMED PDZ. I almost gagged.

It's mostly the faces I'm talking about. The pirates in SoT look very similar to that type of style in some ways.

I love Rare, but they really need to change some things up with their humans. Everwild looks to be having the same style yet again. It's like the 4th time.
 
OP
OP
Gundam

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
60fps said:
I have no better description but it looks bad in a typical western way. When you look at human characters from early Halo or Metroid Prime 3, they all look equally bad. I don't know why but I feel Japanese designers do stuff like characters, faces, emotions or subtle animation like hair better, even in older games.

This is Japanese character design from 2005, not a AAA release but a rather niche horror game:

93Uq8ct.jpg


I recently played Doom 2016 for the first time and I think its human faces still look worse than this.
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Click to shrink...


I disagree with this premise in general, but I think the answer to "why" is that ultimately, they are still somewhat styled or influenced after anime proportions. Only recently with some things like DMCV and RE2/3 remake have I found there to be really stylish Japanese games that actually go for a photorealistic, actual human proportions sort of look.


Somewhat unrelated, but your post made me think of

 

bell_hooks

Banned
Nov 23, 2019
275
60fps said:
I have no better description but it looks bad in a typical western way. When you look at human characters from early Halo or Metroid Prime 3, they all look equally bad. I don't know why but I feel Japanese designers do stuff like characters, faces, emotions or subtle animation like hair better, even in older games.

This is Japanese character design from 2005, not a AAA release but a rather niche horror game:

93Uq8ct.jpg


I recently played Doom 2016 for the first time and I think its human faces still look worse than this.
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Click to shrink...
AAA Japanese in 2005
tumblr_l5seyltflj1qc2wsio1_1280.jpg
 
Golnei

Golnei

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,823
You didn't even mention one of the most bizarre parts of her PDZ portrayal - giving her an American accent.
 
The Bear

The Bear

Forest Animal
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,194
60fps said:
I have no better description but it looks bad in a typical western way. When you look at human characters from early Halo or Metroid Prime 3, they all look equally bad. I don't know why but I feel Japanese designers do stuff like characters, faces, emotions or subtle animation like hair better, even in older games.

This is Japanese character design from 2005, not a AAA release but a rather niche horror game:

93Uq8ct.jpg


I recently played Doom 2016 for the first time and I think its human faces still look worse than this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Pretty funny how you picked this example, as her design looks pretty damn awful except for arguably the face.
 
DaciaJC

DaciaJC

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,685
RROCKMAN said:
If she must be redesigned then I really want them to keep the hairstyle shape, it's very distinctive and shots like below are very striking because of it

Art-4_4590.JPG
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Is there a name for this particular hairstyle (or as another example, Meryl from MGS below)? I think it looks absolutely incredible.

340
 
NekuWitTheDraco74

NekuWitTheDraco74

Member
Oct 26, 2018
2,222
Gundam said:
Joanna Dark's N64 design I don't find particularly amazing - It's definitely some late 90's stink, but I think it's servicable enough, and distinct as Joanna Dark

Joanna_dark_N64_render.png
810a9ae28934190cdca9aa7c8c575bb3--perfect-dark-heroes.jpg

I think what I like the most about her design here is her shorter hair, something that wasn't so common back then, I feel.

But then Perfect Dark Zero happens.
And, man, outside of being a garbage-to-mediocre video game, I hate hate hate Joanna's design.

OIP.LCl_UdjPSAURbzJ9J0q6nwHaG0
latest

Like... What? That's not even the same person. Why does she look like she wants to sell me the latest flavor of Mountain Dew? Why is her hair longer and more cartoonishly red? She looks straight out of Max Steel or Action Man, somehow moreso than the original. Why is she a shitty Black Widow?

Joanna Dark has pretty much always been a sort of "Sexy Skintight Suit Spy Woman" trope, which is certainly a product of Rare's, and gaming-at-large's sensibility at that time, and yet I still find the Perfect Dark Zero design so much trashier? I abhor it and seriously hope it doesn't erase the original and become the defacto design.

But that's okay, right? In Perfect Dark, Joanna is sort of known to wear different outfits, remember?

For some reason, I can't find her Chinese dress from the first game online, but it was generally... Alright? Questionable appropriation aside, I guess the idea is that it's a sort of formal dress for her. In PDZ, we get... A Sim With Guns?


d4f923e6ee50f70516d4de13bb727648.jpg


I'm a fan of a good chunk of Rare games, but I feel they've never been super known for great art design. But this is offensively bad.

Maybe with a slight change in art style, a new Joanna Dark with the PDZ design could look alright? But it's so extremely dated in an awful way, to a degree that the original isn't. For me the big thing is the super red, longer hair. I already loathe Scarlett Johannsen and I'd really rather we try not to stick to the idea of bootleg Black Widow.
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Wasn't her hair always supposed to be red?? I remember reading it was supposed to be in the first game but the 64 wasn't capable
 
FarSight XR-20

FarSight XR-20

Member
Jan 4, 2018
8,619
Gundam said:
Perfect Dark should be the Splinter Cell we deserve (Or need?)

I enjoy the first game a lot, and think it had value for the market of the time. In 2020, I don't think we need Perfect Dark to be a FPS, but the setting and fanbase are established - If you want to make a game with a woman protag, set in a cyberpunk world, where she's a spy, and you own the Perfect Dark IP, the question kind of becomes... Why isn't it Perfect Dark?

I like Joanna's personality in the OG, and I don't want to throw out her entire character history, I just want to avoid using the PDZ design whatsoever.
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Perfect Dark is way closer to James Bond (action with some stealth) than Splinter cell (stealth with some action).
 
Daniel Westlake

Daniel Westlake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,165
Looking at these three designs knowing nothing about the franchise she basically went from an agent of shield to Black Widow to a Totally Spies side character
 
antitrop

antitrop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,585
The character models in PDZ were all bad. I've always described them as Mr Potato Head dolls that have their facial features stuck on. They look so jarring in a particular kind of way that I've never seen in any other game.

The game was such an all-around disaster that Joanna's punky redesign was the least of my issues.
 
Vulcano's Assistant

Vulcano's Assistant

Member
Oct 29, 2017
13,481
The original in-game PD model was the best the character ever looked. Which didn't resemble the promo art at all, but was quite realistic instead. N64 graphics and all. Even the remaster messed up the model making it more cartoony and adding mascara

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stn

stn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,597
I greatly prefer the design in the first PD, I disliked the aesthetic and feel of PDZ. It was a solid game on its own but not good when compared to PD. Given how many hours I sunk into PD, and that I still play it from time to time, PDZ is probably my biggest disappointment sequel ever.
 
OP
OP
Gundam

Gundam

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,801
stn said:
I greatly prefer the design in the first PD, I disliked the aesthetic and feel of PDZ. It was a solid game on its own but not good when compared to PD. Given how many hours I sunk into PD, and that I still play it from time to time, PDZ is probably my biggest disappointment sequel ever.
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I mean, it did pretty much kill the franchise
 
Rover

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,417
I never played these games but I remember thinking it was cool that they made a FPS game with a character so feminine, you could see her hands with painted nails as you reloaded the guns or used the binoculars. There's a separate topic about gender roles and identity there, and whether the game ultimately did anything worth a damn with that character - but I did think that was an interesting choice at the time, when the FPS aesthetic was dominated by Call of Duty and Battlefield (no female soldiers, either).
 
Garlador

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
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I like both, though I did enjoy her remastered version probably best, even if she wasn't as auburn as before.
tumblr_orqc3pM1Hc1tuy4w7o1_400.jpg
 
Betelgeuse

Betelgeuse

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,941
It's utter garbage, which sums up pretty much every other aspect of the game.

I seriously struggle to find a single redeemable thing about Zero. Tacky visuals, shitty controls, terrible level design, dumbass AI, kneecapped weapon/gadget/objective systems, awful characterization. They threw out everything they did well with the original and replaced it with vastly inferior counterparts. A completely derivative sequel would have come out a much better game.
TheDinoman said:
Dude that's not even the worse redesign from that game

Here's Daniel Carrington in Perfect Dark (or at least the HD remaster)

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...and here he is in Perfect Dark Zero

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what even IS this game
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Jesus Christ. How have I never seen this before? What the fuck, Rare?
 
Guru Meditation

Guru Meditation

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,154
Original character design is pretty bad too. If they ever bring back the franchise hopefully it's a full redesign from the ground up.
 
antitrop

antitrop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,585
Betelgeuse said:
It's utter garbage, which sums up pretty much every other aspect of the game.

I seriously struggle to find a single redeemable thing about Zero. Tacky visuals, shitty controls, terrible level design, dumbass AI, kneecapped weapon/gadget/objective systems, awful characterization. They threw out everything they did well with the original and replaced it with vastly inferior counterparts. A completely derivative sequel would have come out a much better game.
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Big yeah. When I think of positive things to say about PDZ all I can say is: the parallax-mapped walls were really nice, the multiplayer was passable for a launch window where there wasn't a Halo game to play instead, and the first-person weapon models were pretty good.

Everything else was trash. Especially that level design. So bad that they had to give you blue arrows on the floor to tell you where to go. You can turn the arrows off, but that only reinforces how terrible the level design is and how troublesome it is to navigate without them.

If it were to ever get a remake, modern reviews would tear it apart. The reviews it got at the time were far too kind. PDZ's metascore (81) is pretty damn close to DOOM 2016's (85) and I think pretty much anyone can see the world of difference in quality between them.

EDIT: Funny enough, I found this Polygon article that ranks all the games on RARE Replay and PDZ was at the absolute bottom. That proves my point well enough.
www.polygon.com

Rare Replay Countdown: 30 Rare classics ranked from worst to best

Rare Replay, a collection of 30 Rare-developed games from the last 32 years, comes out this week. It's a game that's well worth owning if you have an Xbox One, even just for the history's sake, but...
www.polygon.com www.polygon.com
 
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Aswitch

Aswitch

Member
Nov 27, 2017
5,118
Los Angeles, CA
I didn't really have a problem with it. Felt pretty accurate considering it was before the original Perfect Dark. I understand the displeasure though.
 
Falchion

Falchion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
40,919
Boise
The character design in the first at least seemed like spy attire. The second's looks like a teenage punk.
 
Lukar

Lukar

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,355
OP's pic of her with camo pants is the most early-2000's thing I've seen in a while.
 
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