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Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Especially considering that ancient Egyptians just built them the same way white people built things: slavery.


AKCHALLY turns out that's at the very least gigantically exaggerated - and sort of amplified by the completely false Old Testament account of Pharaoh enslaving the entire Jewish people and the exodus.

The current historical consensus suggests paid laborers and skilled craftsmen and engineers built the pyramids and the projects included a giant infrastructure to feed and house and care for workers. It seems likely that slave labor would have contributed to the projects but not as their driving force.

On the contrary, the pyramids were built in much the same way we'd find acceptable today- and every "miracle " of construction is explained through wealth, known construction techniques and common sense architecture-

There are even failed construction attempts where bad luck, geology or poor engineering created slumped pyramids, collapsed towers and so on. The aliens doing it has always been absurd. There's an easy evolutionary chart directly from stone and boulder mounds all the way to Giza.

Did the Egyptian pharaohs have slaves? Of course - but they were a mix of conquered peoples, internal castes and were specific to certain tasks.

The biblical account isn't even accepted by serious Jewish scholars and there's evidence of Semitic people living in Egypt at the time of the exodus as free or prosperous citizens- not slaves- and certainly not en masse

The exodus is probably based on a diaspora that occurred historically from Canaan and the region but had no factual connection to the story of Moses and pharaoh and is an amalgam of previous origin myths from the Semitic peoples and other cultures in the region.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,621
This is one of my favorite ones.

It already kinda happened in recorded history with the fall of Rome.
Yea but even if they were called the dark ages there were still adancements. And people didn't really forget things, just there was no incentive to keep doing those things without a proper large governing body like Rome. Plus that was only in Europe, the rest of the world...particularly Asia, was flourishing.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
I also hate when alien technology is basically magic, and the only explanation for how that shit works is "they're an advanced alien species". Pissed me off in that movie Arrival, although it wasn't their technology so much as their "language".

I liked the way District 9 handled it, where most of the stranded aliens were dummy workers, because pretty much all the smart leader ones died before they even got to earth haha. Now you're left with people slowly trying to reverse engineer their tech, because not even the aliens know how that shit works.


Arrival SPOILERS (maybe the novel makes me more aware than what I remember being in the film) is actually a really hardcore real science and linguistics problem of what would happen if we ever encountered a species who communicates in four dimensions - we're extremely limited in that sense- and it's a version of the Flatlander problem- where it sorta falls down is that the culture is far more advanced than is and would know from observation how we communicate and perceive time- so their lack of ability to talk to us feels silly- on the other hand their visit is an emergency response to a threat that happens in the future so they're taking what are arguably sudden and desperate measures- or they are so advanced that their communication with us actually helped us achieve the things we needed to know to help them - and it worked- so us being concerned at their lack of comprehension is belief by the fact that the alien efforts worked perfectly and we're just too dumb to get it.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
Arrival SPOILERS (maybe the novel makes me more aware than what I remember being in the film) is actually a really hardcore real science and linguistics problem of what would happen if we ever encountered a species who communicates in four dimensions - we're extremely limited in that sense- and it's a version of the Flatlander problem- where it sorta falls down is that the culture is far more advanced than is and would know from observation how we communicate and perceive time- so their lack of ability to talk to us feels silly- on the other hand their visit is an emergency response to a threat that happens in the future so they're taking what are arguably sudden and desperate measures- or they are so advanced that their communication with us actually helped us achieve the things we needed to know to help them - and it worked- so us being concerned at their lack of comprehension is belief by the fact that the alien efforts worked perfectly and we're just too dumb to get it.

How does understanding their language allow you to see the past, future, and present?

Makes no sense.
 

Wafflinson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
2,084
How does understanding their language allow you to see the past, future, and present?

Makes no sense.
I have only watched the movie, but I think the implication is that humans always could, but it required a fundamental shift in the way we think.

The language of the aliens is designed in a way to encourage this transition.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
I have only watched the movie, but I think the implication is that humans always could, but it required a fundamental shift in the way we think.

The language of the aliens is designed in a way to encourage this transition.

How though?

So humans always had psychic abilities, and the language unlocks it? Like a spell? That's basically magic, which is what I find annoying.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
The Fallout series annoys me so hard. I be thinking it was only 5 years since the bombs drop, turns out it be like an 100.
What the hell is everyone doing?

That's why Bethesda's Fallouts suck. In the original Fallouts Humanity was already getting back on its feet, in Fallout 2 especially.
 

Wafflinson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
2,084
How though?

So humans always had psychic abilities, and the language unlocks it? Like a spell? That's basically magic, which is what I find annoying.
Not really.

It would actually be a pretty beneficial biological adaptation if you could see flashes of the future, even if unconsciously. There are MANY human traits that were for a long time unconscious but we can train ourselves to control consciously.

The language of the aliens isn't chronological. It represents meaning, not time. The shift in understanding to use this language facilitates us thinking the same way about our experiences.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
Not really.

It would actually be a pretty beneficial biological adaptation if you could see flashes of the future, even if unconsciously. There are MANY human traits that were for a long time unconscious but we can train ourselves to control consciously.

The language of the aliens isn't chronological. It represents meaning, not time. The shift in understanding to use this language facilitates us thinking the same way about our experiences.

Yeah but we don't have that adaptation lol. We can't see the future. We can predict it based on what we know, but that's it.

To me the movie was more philosophical. Like "what would you do if you could see the future? Would you change it or let it be? What is destiny?" type shit, and used Aliens as a convenient vehicle.
 

Gwenpoolshark

Member
Jan 5, 2018
4,109
The Pool
I dislike when it's about ancient peoples not having the ability to produce the great things that they did. Feels disrespectful to the builders. We've got more tech and better education these days, but there have been clever people in all societies forever. Looking at you, Ancient Aliens.

It's genuinely western civilization supremacism just wearing a silly mask.
 

SENPAIatLARGE

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,501
DzVuQ_LWoAE67Wx.jpg
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
How does understanding their language allow you to see the past, future, and present?

Makes no sense.

t doesn't that's their tech - when she understands the language she understands more of what they're attempting to show her. The movie treats it like dreams or visions but she's engaged with the 4d apparition of a more complex multidimensional species and she's only grasping what she can
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
t doesn't that's their tech - when she understands the language she understands more of what they're attempting to show her. The movie treats it like dreams or visions but she's engaged with the 4d apparition of a more complex multidimensional species and she's only grasping what she can

So the aliens were explaining the future to her?
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,588
That's not what The World's End is about, at all.

What The Network says is that the most recent rise in telecommunications technology (read: social media, modern smart phones) was influenced by them in the first step of making slaves out of humanity. They didn't provide us with all of our technology. In fact, they have only been on earth since fairly recently. It's a comment on our growing reliance on technology, not some sort of dismissal of people inventing these technologies.

The Fallout series annoys me so hard. I be thinking it was only 5 years since the bombs drop, turns out it be like an 100.
What the hell is everyone doing?
Play the pre-Bethesda Fallout games and New Vegas, because they are all about that. Fallout 2 in particular has fully functioning post-war communities and even entire cities (G.E.C.K. influenced Vault City and non-G.E.C.K. influenced New Reno). Bethesda is the one that seemingly has zero concept of time and/or zero faith in humanity's ability to rebuild.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,374
That's not what The World's End is about, at all.

What The Network says is that the most recent rise in telecommunications technology (read: social media, modern smart phones) was influenced by them in the first step of making slaves out of humanity. They didn't provide us with all of out technology. It's a comment on our growing reliance on technology, not some sort of dismissal of people inventing these technologies.
Correct. I guess I can see the movie spurring a reflection on this in media but it certainly isn't a good actual example of it at all.
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
I hated how they did it in Transformers (the Bay movie).
Studying Megatron is the source of all the technological advancements since WW 2. Yeah, no. And then they ignore in canon-wise when no one thinks of doing it until movie number 4 when studying them gives us nanomachines.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,751
I read Neil Gaiman's Eternals a few months ago, and got annoyed by the trope. Apparently humanity was so stupid it needed aliens to teach them how to read and write. Fuuuuck thaaat.
 

Wafflinson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
2,084
Yeah but we don't have that adaptation lol. We can't see the future. We can predict it based on what we know, but that's it.

To me the movie was more philosophical. Like "what would you do if you could see the future? Would you change it or let it be? What is destiny?" type shit, and used Aliens as a convenient vehicle.
NO WAI. Its almost like its science fiction or something....

You know, a genre based completely on the concept of "what if?"
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
wow at the hubris of thinking we could have built the pyramids. like that's just a really efficient way to pile rocks on top of each other or something.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
The vague ancient dead civilization with super advanced tech is easily my least favorite thing in a lot of JRPGs.

"The ancients created all seven magical macguffins."

In Fantasy this trope is awesome, it helps create a wide and wild world that has a deeper history than just what's shown on screen. It's just when set in our world that it makes things less interesting.
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,192
In the case of The World's End, it struck me as simple insecurity about technology. A lot of people don't understand how their gadgets work and get uncomfortable thinking about it. Having all tech being given to us by secret aliens is a reassuring thought because it means that, no, other people aren't actually smarter than me.

The Ancient Aliens crowd is similar but 1) not intentionally jokey, and 2) more racist.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,846
Mount Airy, MD
So the aliens were explaining the future to her?

No.

The notion is that Sapir-Whorf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity) when extrapolated (via science fiction, obvs) to an entirely alien linguistic structure would lead to a human who learned it to understand/think in the way these beings do. The aliens come to Earth because their ability to understand all of time as a single point means they are aware that they needed to come here at this place and this time to help humans understand their language and become the version of humanity that will later aid them.

Her process through the film (and story) is coming to grasp all of her life's timeline as a single point once she understands their language, and using it to stop the disaster. She cannot, however, change the future. Her struggle and nightmare is accepting the knowledge of everything that comes with it, including her daughter's death.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
So the aliens were explaining the future to her?

sorta - they were explaining as best they could to a much shallower species but it's also inferred that they were helping design a desirable outcome by both predicting/showing her the future but also crafting it to push our species to a place where it could help them with a problem they couldn't solve themselves- only they COULD solve it themselves by crafting the situation from the movie and novel.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
AKCHALLY turns out that's at the very least gigantically exaggerated - and sort of amplified by the completely false Old Testament account of Pharaoh enslaving the entire Jewish people and the exodus.

The current historical consensus suggests paid laborers and skilled craftsmen and engineers built the pyramids and the projects included a giant infrastructure to feed and house and care for workers. It seems likely that slave labor would have contributed to the projects but not as their driving force.

On the contrary, the pyramids were built in much the same way we'd find acceptable today- and every "miracle " of construction is explained through wealth, known construction techniques and common sense architecture-

There are even failed construction attempts where bad luck, geology or poor engineering created slumped pyramids, collapsed towers and so on. The aliens doing it has always been absurd. There's an easy evolutionary chart directly from stone and boulder mounds all the way to Giza.

Did the Egyptian pharaohs have slaves? Of course - but they were a mix of conquered peoples, internal castes and were specific to certain tasks.

The biblical account isn't even accepted by serious Jewish scholars and there's evidence of Semitic people living in Egypt at the time of the exodus as free or prosperous citizens- not slaves- and certainly not en masse

The exodus is probably based on a diaspora that occurred historically from Canaan and the region but had no factual connection to the story of Moses and pharaoh and is an amalgam of previous origin myths from the Semitic peoples and other cultures in the region.
Huh. #themoreyouknow

Honestly I wasn't even thinking about Jewish scripture I just figured slavery has been a staple throughout most of human history.
 

AstronaughtE

Member
Nov 26, 2017
10,190
It's absurd. All aliens did was enhance our animal intelligence so we could gather the resources required to repair their broke down ships and refill their food supply.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
NO WAI. Its almost like its science fiction or something....

You know, a genre based completely on the concept of "what if?"

Well they need to establish that psychic powers are a thing in that world, or at least hint at it.

Although I don't even think that's what the movie was trying to do tbh.

No.

The notion is that Sapir-Whorf (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity) when extrapolated (via science fiction, obvs) to an entirely alien linguistic structure would lead to a human who learned it to understand/think in the way these beings do. The aliens come to Earth because their ability to understand all of time as a single point means they are aware that they needed to come here at this place and this time to help humans understand their language and become the version of humanity that will later aid them.

Her process through the film (and story) is coming to grasp all of her life's timeline as a single point once she understands their language, and using it to stop the disaster. She cannot, however, change the future. Her struggle and nightmare is accepting the knowledge of everything that comes with it, including her daughter's death.

I don't really buy into linguistic relativity. I'm not a linguist, but I grew up speaking two drastically different languages, and it hasn't affected how I perceive the world on any level other than superficial. Prolly why I had a hard time buying "language as the facilitator for a new way of understanding" thing. Especially when it comes to space-time and all that. I just can't see how that's possible.

In regards to the bold, I think that's what the movie was about (haven't read the book), and they used "advanced aliens" because they're cool lol. You could replace the aliens with ancient Wizards or whatever, and it wouldn't really change much.

sorta - they were explaining as best they could to a much shallower species but it's also inferred that they were helping design a desirable outcome by both predicting/showing her the future but also crafting it to push our species to a place where it could help them with a problem they couldn't solve themselves- only they COULD solve it themselves by crafting the situation from the movie and novel.

I still don't understand how Amy Adams "knew" the future. I don't know about the book, but I'm pretty sure in the movie the whole point was: Amy Adams is a linguist who deciphers an alien language in order to communicate with them. Through that process she is somehow able to "know" everything that's about to happen in her life, because the secrets to do that are in how the alien language works. Their "language is their weapon" and all that. It allows her to "think" in 4D or some shit, like they do. How does she deal with that, and what does she do? Does she still wanna keep banging Jeremy Renner?

I just couldn't buy into it lol.
 

Mulciber

Member
Aug 22, 2018
5,217
Yeah but we don't have that adaptation lol. We can't see the future. We can predict it based on what we know, but that's it.

To me the movie was more philosophical. Like "what would you do if you could see the future? Would you change it or let it be? What is destiny?" type shit, and used Aliens as a convenient vehicle.
This is correct. He wrote the story to tell a tale about how someone deals with the inevitable. In this case, it's literally, 100% inevitable for her, because she actually knows what happens in the future. The story grew out of a couple of things, but one of them was a comment a friend made to him about wishing they knew what the future held for their newborn baby.

It's also related to this idea: Don't worry too much about the future, it's going to happen anyway. You are, right now, living in your past self's future.

I love that short story. And I love that whole collection of short stories. The movie didn't quite work for me, though. It wasn't bad. Just kind of an 8/10. Maybe 8.5.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
There was an episode of Enterprise where some Vulcans had crash landed on Earth in the 50s, well before official first contact. They did their best to blend into human society, but since they needed money to get by, one of them sold the idea for Velcro. I kind of liked that one. No noble intentions, just needed the cash.
Ha, actually they sold the Velcro to pay for the college education of a local kid.
 

Abylim

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,022
Australia
almost everyone on this thread was or still is taught that erroneous stuff in school and Sunday school so not surprising. I did for half my life.

Can you elaborate more on the subject? And link me to some stuff? This stuff fascinates me. I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness, left when I was 14. Have always wanted to learn more about the other side of things.
 
Oct 29, 2017
13,472
The other way around (Space faring humans trying to shape primitive civilizations) is fun because you are riding that dramatic irony in the chapters from the primitives POV. Twists that reveal a hidden actor responsible for everything aren't as interesting as being shown the process.

Interestingly enough, they are often smart spiders. Like in Children of Time, and A Deepness in the Sky.
 

Sander VF

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
25,919
Tbilisi, Georgia
Its also rooted in racism.
Well there's "softer" implicit racism of "it was aliens" and then there is "IT WAS ANCIENT MAGIC WHITE PEOPLE WIPED OUT BY THE SAVAGES"

US president Andrew Jackson actually believed that

www.splcenter.org

Close encounters of the racist kind

The modern far right is crisscrossed with pseudo-scientific research into lost Aryan super-civilizations, biblical giants, ancient astronauts and the occasional inter-dimensional alien.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,258
São Paulo - Brazil
I wonder if this had to do with the Roman Empire and the "Dark Ages".

The idea of a previous civilization more advanced than the moden one is a strong part of western mentality.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,019
I wonder if this had to do with the Roman Empire and the "Dark Ages".

The idea of a previous civilization more advanced than the moden one is a strong part of western mentality.

The idea predates Rome. Atlantis came from Plato, and almost every religion has the concept of a Golden Age where everything used to be swell for people until someone ruined it.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,258
São Paulo - Brazil
The idea predates Rome. Atlantis came from Plato, and almost every religion has the concept of a Golden Age where everything used to be swell for people until someone ruined it.

Indeed, but these stories are different, no Ancient Greek city was build on the ruins of Atlantis. Anyway what I meant to say is that this trope might be particularly relevant in Western mentality because the Fall of the Western Roman Empire and the less advance society after, that could see the remains of this previous civilization that could do things beyond any of them. That was a real event, one that is deeply embedded in western canon.

And what I'm wondering if this make western writers more likely to use this kind of story.