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Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
It rarely happens so it's a moot point anyway - but, if they wish to do so why shouldn't they have ability to? The money is at least still flowing within the ecosystem as opposed to in a scalper's pocket.

You realize all these are baseless claims, right?
I personally think anyone should be able to insert themselves into an eco-system, shore up any inefficiencies and profit while doing so. Like others have explained many times in this thread already, scalpers wouldn't exist in an efficient market. You believe the ecosystem should start and stop with the established players, whether or not it's at an equilibrium. I believe anyone should be able to enter any ecosystem and make it more efficient as long as it is within the confines of the law.

Please explain to me how what I said are baseless claims. It's easy to make claims without backing them up, but it doesn't make for an interesting conversation on a message board.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,919
Personally, I don't blame someone at all for reselling a hard-to-get item for more than they bought it. That's fair and whatever. The ones that do scam listings and then run away with your money don't have any justification though.

Either way, you're not missing out on much by just waiting until the new hardware is readily available in the next 6-12 months. There's not many new games worth getting.

What really, really, really blows my mind is the price for last-gen consoles and PC hardware that's 1-2 years old. Right now, I could sell my RX 580 and ryzen 3600 for MORE than what I paid a year and a half ago. That's ridiculous and I definitely can understand why people who are hurting for money in these will sell for the best price they can get.

But it also suggests that there's a pent-up demand for some reason. Maybe it's because we're confined indoors for recreational activities or maybe it's just due to FOMO surrounding release of new hardware. I don't know.

Whatever the transactional costs, people are willing to pay enough to cover the cost.
Yeah, scalpers don't decrease the available stock. Either way, it all gets sold out simply because there's a manufacturing/shipping issue in the world right now.

Retailers and auction sites could implement policies that eliminate the ability to scalp products, but that wouldn't increase the number of gamers that can finally get their hands on the products.
 

Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
There's no need for scalpers. People spend money on plenty of goods and services that are bad for society. Being profit driven doesn't make scalping ethical. Scalpers are pricing out lower income customers and not providing a substantial benefit to society. Sony on the other hand provides an entertainment device and in doing so doesn't negatively impact everyone else in their pursuit of profit. Sony's business model is ethical and scalpers' isn't.

The benefit being provided is those who have more money than time are able to get a PS5 when the demand is extremely high. Just because it's not a benefit you personally value doesn't mean it's not a service that is value to some people in the ecosystem.

I'd be inclined to agree with you if the only reason there is a shortage is because of scalpers, but supply is so much lower than demand that scalpers are a small drop in the bucket.
 

Deleted member 79058

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 25, 2020
2,912
Solution: don't buy from scalpers. Are you gonna die if you keep some months without playing a videogame? Probably no.
And I would consider politicians, thiefs, terrorists and other categories of terrible people as "scum of the earth". Scalpers are just making some money out of not-so-smart people.
 

Outtrigger888

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,305
The amount of consoles being bought by scalpers is very minimal. The demand is huge and there's minimal supply.Take the scalpers out of the equation and you're still unlikely to get a console.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
I believe anyone should be able to enter any ecosystem and make it more efficient as long as it is within the confines of the law.
Is all of this based on whether it's legal or not? If a government introduces a new bill and makes it illegal, where do you stand?

If the entire market is riddled with scalpers and you are essentially required to deal with scalpers in order to acquire something like a TV, speakers or console, is that still something you support and think it's beneficial for anyone?
Please explain to me how what I said are baseless claims.
Well, you're free to back them up (specifically the latter two) or explain how you ended up with your conclusion. My point is, a lot of your reasonings are based on personal assumptions.
 

dark494

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
4,548
Seattle
I've been trying to get a new mobo for several months now. Been sold out since last September or so. It's normally a $400 mobo, but scalpers are still there on Amazon, Newegg, and the like selling it for $900-1000 today. It's some bs for sure.

Fun thing I watched though a few weeks back, 3-4 of these scalpers got into an undercutting war with each other, and you could watch in real-time over several days as they continuously dropped their prices a few dollars at a time to undercut each other over and over. They're desperate
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
There's no need for scalpers. People spend money on plenty of goods and services that are bad for society.
I need you to draw me the logical connection between scalpers and bad for society.
Being profit driven doesn't make scalping ethical.
I wasn't saying for-profit makes something ethical. I was making a point of comparison across Sony's business and scalper's that doesn't differentiate between the two. I was trying to preempt a response (which you go into below) about how Sony is making a fun product while scalpers are just moving units around, when at their core, they are both in it to make money and neither taking action to address an inherent need. Let me ask you this: do retailers serve a need?
Scalpers are pricing out lower income customers and not providing a substantial benefit to society.
Every price prices out people that are less willing to pay. Sony does that by charging $500 instead of $300 or $1. You have to have some mechanism for allocating from who to what. People glued to their computers or developing bots for months as that mechanism is DOGSHIT, for both poor people and rich people. Price is so much better in this instance.
Sony on the other hand provides an entertainment device and in doing so doesn't negatively impact everyone else in their pursuit of profit.
Scalpers don't negatively impact everyone else either. They quite helped the people that are willing to pay the higher prices in fact. Some children got PS5s for Christmas because of scalpers.
Sony's business model is ethical and scalpers' isn't.
Nothing about scalpers is unethical. Convince me, please.
 

Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
Is all of this based on whether it's legal or not? If a government introduces a new bill and makes it illegal, where do you stand?

If the entire market is riddled with scalpers and you are essentially required to deal with scalpers in order to acquire something like a TV, speakers or console, is that still something you support and think it's beneficial for anyone?

Well, you're free to back them up (specifically the latter two) or explain how you ended up with your conclusion. My point is, a lot of your reasonings are based on personal assumptions.

If scalping a luxury good is made illegal in my country, then I wouldn't support people scalping it. I would question why my law makers are over reaching, but I wouldn't support people skirting the law.

What part of what I said do you believe made an illogical jump? That those who have more disposable income would likely generate more revenue than users who are priced out of the market by scalpers? Maybe I'm missing something, so please feel free to tell me why you believe this to be untrue?
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
The benefit being provided is those who have more money than time are able to get a PS5 when the demand is extremely high. Just because it's not a benefit you personally value doesn't mean it's not a service that is value to some people in the ecosystem.
I think I asked this before, but do you actually know of anyone who appreciates this effort? How many are realistically in this group, and how much time are we talking here, really. $500 for the effort of pre-ordering through a web-site? If you can pay that amount of money in order to merely save a few minutes of your time, uh chances are you have other hobbies.
If scalping a luxury good is made illegal in my country, then I wouldn't support people scalping it. I would question why my law makers are over reaching, but I wouldn't support people skirting the law.

What part of what I said do you believe made an illogical jump? That those who have more disposable income would likely generate more revenue than users who are priced out of the market by scalpers? Maybe I'm missing something, so please feel free to tell me why you believe this to be untrue?
Yes, your assumption may as well be as likely as the opposite: where Sony is earning less money because their customers just bought a console $500 over RRP, so they don't feel inclined to spend anymore than they already have.

We can also assume PS5 has a smaller userbase because scalpers are still holding onto a certain number of consoles.
 

Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
I think I asked this before, but do you actually know of anyone who appreciates this effort? How many are realistically in this group, and how much time are we talking here, really. $500 for the effort of pre-ordering through a web-site? If you can pay that amount of money in order to merely save a few minutes of your time, uh chances are you have other hobbies.
Yes, your assumption may as well be as likely as the opposite: where Sony is earning less money because their customers just bought a console $500 over RRP, so they don't feel inclined to spend anymore than they already have.

We can also assume PS5 has a smaller userbase because scalpers are still holding onto a certain number of consoles.

To your first question, yes. I know a grandparent who was able to get an NES Classic for their grand son 2 days before Christmas. They were unbelievably ecstatic that they were able to find the hot gift and get an amazing reaction on Christmas morning.

How do you figure the PS5 user base is smaller? People aren't holding onto these things like they are currency, they are being purchased by end users pretty soon after they become available on various marketplace websites.

Maybe people will have less disposable income if they purchase a PS5 above MSRP and won't buy games because of it... but I guess my question for you would be, why buy a PS5 at inflated prices If you don't intend to then spend money on games? I would imagine if you fell into that camp, you wouldn't be buying above MSRP to begin with and would just wait.
 

leder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,111
Yep. I managed to get three different preorders for PS5 but just to ensure I got one on launch day. Canceled the other two because I'm not an asshole. Could have made like a grand.
 

nel e nel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,134
If scalping wasn't so rampant, this wouldn't be an issue, they're artificially creating stock shortages.
It's not as rampant as you would think:

arstechnica.com

Scalpers aren’t the main reason you can’t find a new console

...but they certainly aren't helping.

All told, Driscoll estimates the resale market represents 10 to 15 percent of the (also very roughly estimated) 2 million PS5s that have been sold in the US so far. The percentages involved for the Xbox Series S/X are a bit smaller, but they're in the same range.
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,099
Scum of the earth is too strong but they are indeed arseholes.

"But what if they're buying 25 PS5s to feed their starving family" < wow true guess it's actually excellent thanks
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
A shortage is when demand exceeds supply at a certain price. People want to buy something, but they can't. If Sony is willing to sell its 100 PS5s at $500, and 200 people are willing to buy at that price, you have a shortage, because 100 people will be up a hill. Under the basic market model, the price would be raised until everyone who wants to buy a PS5 at that price gets one. Let's say it's at $800. The same exact thing works in reverse. If Sony is willing to sell its 100 PS5s at $500 but only 50 are willing to buy at that price, you have a surplus. And the model says Sony would lower the price until everyone who can buy a PS5 gets one. And we might see that later on in a generation: people several years down the line are predictably much less willing to pay $500 for the console, so the price might get lowered to $400. Put a pin in that concept. The cost of production of these consoles also happens to go down over time, but that's a separate thing that we can ignore for now.

Shortages and surpluses are generally BAD. They are inefficiencies that markets tend to avoid, but as we can see in this real-world example, not always. Price is an efficient way for producers and consumers to signal their willingness to trade goods, and when there's a breakdown, we get things like wait times. Rationing. Things that, efficiency wise, we would've preferred have just been mitigated by letting a price be fluid.

Now we arrive at scalpers. By realizing there's a shortage, to some degree they are able to gather the products and redistribute them based upon price. That's what we want from an efficiency perspective. People that willing to pay get consoles first, people that are less willing will wait for the console to come down. But even if they are less willing, as long as they are more willing that the original MSRP, they are more likely to get one in a timely and orderly manner than F5ing Walmart, crossing fingers on PSDirect, eyes glued to Wario 64, or staying up to 3am. Time that could've spent doing other things. Scalpers DO serve a function, and that is reducing shortage and that bad things that come with it. The more scalper, the less inefficiency, as nails on a chalkboard as that might sound.

OK, so remember my pin in demand going up and down? My point in that chain is the price is a moving target. The "actual price," if there is one, would be where there is no shortage and no surplus. The equilibrium. The actual price, in this case, is definitely not the $500 that Sony put MSRP at, because it's just an articifial price ceiling as we might call it. If the retail price of PS5 reduces from $500 to $400 after a few years, no one says Sony is giving you a $100 discount on the "actual price" of a PS5. All it is, beyond the components becoming cheaper, is the price meeting the demand. And the same logic applies to scalping, even if it's not Sony or the retailers themselves doing it. Scalpers are not charging extra in any different way than Sony is charging less when the price goes down. So arguing with the premise of $500 being the "actual price" in any kind of normative sense because that's where Sony sells it at doesn't really make sense. It could be $600 or $400 and we'd still be in the same situation.

So, assuming a) you're being serious rather than trolling, and b) I managed to untangle your, uh, colorful logic correctly: you're redefining "shortage" from it's actual meaning of "people that are willing to pay X [retail price] can't buy product", to "people that are willing to pay Y [inflated scalper price] can't buy product"; and thus, claiming that, by raising Y, scalpers are actually nullifying shortage. Because if nobody wants to pay ridiculous prices, then surely they don't want that console so much, hence no shortage.

Thats-A-Bold-Strategy-Meme.gif


BRB solving "food shortages" in third-world countries by selling bean cans at $500 a pop.
 
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XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
How do you figure the PS5 user base is smaller? People aren't holding onto these things like they are currency, they are being purchased by end users pretty soon after they become available on various marketplace websites.
Feel free to have a gander at your nearest second hand market.
Maybe people will have less disposable income if they purchase a PS5 above MSRP and won't buy games because of it... but I guess my question for you would be, why buy a PS5 at inflated prices If you don't intend to then spend money on games? I would imagine if you fell into that camp, you wouldn't be buying above MSRP to begin with and would just wait.
Same reason anyone buys a console at or near launch - hype. Perhaps Demon's Souls or PS+ collection is enough for them until summer. I can't really know for sure, but I think it's easy for someone caught up in the hype to give into it if they have the $1,000 to spare on their hobby, even if it means a limited access to more games initially.
 

The Gold Hawk

Member
Jan 30, 2019
4,515
Yorkshire
The only time I really give a shit is if it's something that is for kids.

Like, a new Iphone or some expensive shoes or whatever... It sucks for people who want it and I do feel for people who pay their prices but when it's a product intended for young children? Eat shit. Seriously.

Concert tickets for childrens entertainers or toys around Christmas. Getting sold out then popping up on Ebay for 6 times the price. Eat shit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
So, assuming a) you're being serious rather than trolling, and b) I managed to untangle your, uh, colorful logic correctly: you're redefining "shortage" from it's actual meaning of "people that are willing to pay X [retail price] can't buy product", to "people that are willing to pay Y [inflated scalper price] can't buy product"; and thus, claiming that, by raising Y, scalpers are actually nullifying shortage. Because if nobody wants to pay ridiculous prices, then surely they don't want that console so much, hence no shortage.

Thats-A-Bold-Strategy-Meme.gif


BRB solving "food shortages" in third-world countries by selling bean cans at $500 a pop.
A shortage is a shortage. Eliminating a shortage doesn't mean you've reach some idealized standard of living. It's that people are able to get what they want at the prices available to them.

Both of the quoted situations qualifies as a shortage. Raising Y price eliminates it, yes, to the degree to which scalpers have captured the available inventory. Both types of people in both scenarios are willing to pay the MSRP.
 

Cats

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,929
Retailers need to be the ones fixing this, it's so braindead easy but they don't care at all about bad press, it's so lazy and any marketing manager who wanted their site to get brownie points in the publics eyes would jump in on this:

-Preorders on high demand items.
-1 per customer, 1 per address only, 1 per payment method.
-Captchas, time between requests for bot checking, custom per-website human checks initiated on the day of sale so they cannot be dataminded and programmed for beforehand.
-Lottery for shipments on orders made within the first day instead of first come first serve since it's all within milliseconds anyways before things sellout or the website explodes.

Like, why is this so hard? Because retailers don't care who gets the sale, and that's where my annoyance comes from. Scalpers are just abusers of an already broken system.
 

Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
Feel free to have a gander at your nearest second hand market.

Same reason anyone buys a console at or near launch - hype. Perhaps Demon's Souls or PS+ collection is enough for them until summer. I can't really know for sure, but I think it's easy for someone caught up in the hype to give into it if they have the $1,000 to spare on their hobby, even if it means a limited access to more games initially.

I have, nothing stays up for more than a week where I am (Canada).

If we are to follow along with the hypothesis that it's people getting caught up in the hype, then it's not really a concern about only giving access to wealthy people... is your concern then that Sony won't be able to make maximum profit?
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,001
Canada
Retailers need to be the ones fixing this, it's so braindead easy but they don't care at all about bad press, it's so lazy and any marketing manager who wanted their site to get brownie points in the publics eyes would jump in on this:

-Preorders on high demand items.
-1 per customer, 1 per address only, 1 per payment method.
-Captchas, time between requests for bot checking, custom per-website human checks initiated on the day of sale so they cannot be dataminded and programmed for beforehand.
-Lottery for shipments on orders made within the first day instead of first come first serve since it's all within milliseconds anyways before things sellout or the website explodes.

Like, why is this so hard? Because retailers don't care who gets the sale, and that's where my annoyance comes from. Scalpers are just abusers of an already broken system.
Along with what you mentioned they should also include some form of a backorder system where your placed in a line for when new shipments arrive at the warehouse will then be sent to you.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
If we are to follow along with the hypothesis that it's people getting caught up in the hype, then it's not really a concern about only giving access to wealthy people... is your concern then that Sony won't be able to make maximum profit?
Oh, my concern isn't related to any of this. I just showed you how our assumptions can be as likely as the next one, so it serves little to no purpose using made up scenarios as a base for argumentation. That's all.
 

Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
Retailers need to be the ones fixing this, it's so braindead easy but they don't care at all about bad press, it's so lazy and any marketing manager who wanted their site to get brownie points in the publics eyes would jump in on this:

-Preorders on high demand items.
-1 per customer, 1 per address only, 1 per payment method.
-Captchas, time between requests for bot checking, custom per-website human checks initiated on the day of sale so they cannot be dataminded and programmed for beforehand.
-Lottery for shipments on orders made within the first day instead of first come first serve since it's all within milliseconds anyways before things sellout or the website explodes.

Like, why is this so hard? Because retailers don't care who gets the sale, and that's where my annoyance comes from. Scalpers are just abusers of an already broken system.

I think it's easier said than done. You're asking companies to develop a system doesn't make them more money, puts them in a position of gatekeeping supply, and opens them up to scrutiny by users who will inevitably compare order time stamps and will get upset if someone gets their PS5 dispatched first. Not to mention there are a lot of other things to consider in terms of distribution besides who put an order in first. There is a reason almost no retailer is doing them.
 

Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
Oh, my concern isn't related to any of this. I just showed you how our assumptions can be as likely as the next one, so it serves little to no purpose using made up scenarios as a base for argumentation. That's all.

You should try taking a critical thinking class. Thought experiments are extremely valuable. Talking about hypothetical scenarios and trying to play them out to a logical conclusion is an extremely valuable skill set.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
A shortage is a shortage. Eliminating a shortage doesn't mean you've reach some idealized standard of living. It's that people are able to get what they want at the prices available to them.

Both of the quoted situations qualifies as a shortage. Raising Y price eliminates it, yes, to the degree to which scalpers have captured the available inventory. Both types of people in both scenarios are willing to pay the MSRP.

OK, thanks for the clearing this up. I guess the only remaining question is whether you yourself believe anything of what you just said, or are just idly curious about how long can you push it before people people catch on and start laughing along.

I'm really, truly hoping it's the latter.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
OK, thanks for the clearing this up. I guess the only remaining question is whether you yourself believe anything of what you just said, or are just idly curious about how long can you push it before people people catch on and start laughing along.

I'm really, truly hoping it's the latter.
My takes in this thread have been entirely Econ 101 takes. Sorry if that's too much for you.
 

Deleted member 2834

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,620
So, assuming a) you're being serious rather than trolling, and b) I managed to untangle your, uh, colorful logic correctly: you're redefining "shortage" from it's actual meaning of "people that are willing to pay X [retail price] can't buy product", to "people that are willing to pay Y [inflated scalper price] can't buy product"; and thus, claiming that, by raising Y, scalpers are actually nullifying shortage. Because if nobody wants to pay ridiculous prices, then surely they don't want that console so much, hence no shortage.

Thats-A-Bold-Strategy-Meme.gif


BRB solving "food shortages" in third-world countries by selling bean cans at $500 a pop.
Food is an inelastic good, that means the demand for it stays roughly the same no matter the price. You need to eat or you die. The demand for a $500 PS5 vastly exceeds the supply at the given time and since you can't improve the supply just like that, you up the price to the point where there is an equilibrium of demand and supply. The demand for a, say, $800 PS5 might match the supply for instance. It was correctly pointed out that an a shortage (or an abundance of PS5s, if the price was too high for example) would be considered market inefficiencies.

edit: Slight correction. Food might be inelastic, but the customer behaviour would most certainly change in societies that are used to an abundance of food. The demand would not drop below survival level however.
 
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Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
OK, thanks for the clearing this up. I guess the only remaining question is whether you yourself believe anything of what you just said, or are just idly curious about how long can you push it before people people catch on and start laughing along.

I'm really, truly hoping it's the latter.

Everything he said is completely valid. Maybe you just don't understand the dynamics at play.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Food is an inelastic good, that means the demand for it stays roughly the same no matter the price. You need to eat or you die. The demand for a $500 PS5 vastly exceeds the supply at the given time and since you can't improve the supply just like that, you up the price to the point where there is an equilibrium of demand and supply. The demand for a, say, $800 PS5 might match the supply for instance. It was correctly pointed out that an a shortage (or an abundance of PS5s, if the price was too high for example) would be considered market inefficiencies.

All of that is correct, but you're missing the part I replied to, the one that claimed the way that market inefficiency was resolved was by scalpers buying the exact same product and then re-selling at a higher price, thus solving shortage. Obviously this is nonsense; what economic theory would actually dictate is that either Sony raises PS5's retail price (they won't because they'd rather take the economic hit than the backlash), or other manufacturers provide their own competing products (they won't because the entirety of Sony's ecosystem is propietary).

Scalpers raising prices does in no way, shape or form address the shortage, because the official price as dictated by the seller is still what it is, and people still want to buy at that price.

edit: Slight correction. Food might be inelastic, but the customer behaviour would most certainly change in societies that are used to an abundance of food. The demand would not drop below survival level however.

Whether a good is elastic or inelastic, the only way a "shortage" is solved by scalpers cornering the market is if you entirely change the definition of "shortage".
 

bigbaldwolf86

attempted ban circumvention by using an alt
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
615
I hate scalpers so much.

I struggled to get a PS5 for a few weeks but pulled an all nighters after hearing rumours that Argos amd Amazon would restock in the early hours. They actually did and I managed to get one from Argos. The way the transaction was through seemed like the order was going to be cancelled so I jumped onto Amazon and when that went live I managed to get one on there as well.

Both orders went through but now I had 2 PS5s so I sold the other one to a friend of a friend at cost. He was shocked I was selling it non profit and I could tell he still wasn't sure I was scamming him when he picked it up. He left happy and I had my PS5 so I was good.
 

Deleted member 2834

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,620
And where do you think these feelings are coming from?
That's a fair question. I'm not sure I have a great answer, but I would probably perceive that situation as negative because I was obviously underpaid by the buyer who goes on to sell it. I should have received those 13€ instead.

Maybe I should mention I don't have a horse in this race personally, at least not currently. I'm not in the market for a 3000-series GPU, a PS5 or a new Xbox. I'm actually trying my best to see for what it is, who stands to benefit and what it means for the eco-system. And as I've pointed out, I really don't see how it benefits anyone outside a simple scalper.
It benefits the scalper and the person who buys the product. You don't want to acknowledge the latter for some reason but unless the PS5 is an essential good and unless the buyer's decision making wasn't compromised at the moment of the deal, they are getting what they desire for the price they're willing to pay. Else they'd have to wait months for a PS5 and skipping that time seems to be worth the scalper price to them.

Because I have empathy and I think everyone deserves the same chance to acquire a good if they're ready to pay for it.
I obviously disagree with this for the reasons I already mentioned. I consider a society moral that gives its individuals equal opportunity to achieve economic success and by extension happiness and self-fulfilment. So I would consider scalping medicine, food, educational products and services and possibly more immoral. Making a luxury item unattainable during the launch period for poor people though? I won't shed a tear over it sorry. There's virtually no damage done. There's also plenty of very good competition to choose from when it comes to gaming platforms.

It's so ironic, because that's how capitalism has worked for longest time. The market isn't an auction house where goods go to the highest bidder, where the poorest get what's left - and it should definitely not be that way under any circumstance for obvious reasons. If the supplier wants to increase the price themselves to increase their profit, I think they're free to do so, but once an outsider (with no obligations to pay taxes, or any expenditure that would mean more money in the eco-system) is arbitrarily increasing prices across the board I think it's indefensible. I don't necessarily call for it to be illegal, but how on earth is defensible or even encouraged.
The price isn't increased arbitrarily, on the contrary. Scalpers are asking for the equilibrium price as has been stated dozens of times. You fail to acknolwedge that scalpers offer a service. Assuming we're past the shortage and PS5s are readily available. Suppose I were to buy a PS5 and paint a beautful picture on it and sell it for 700 bucks. Do you think that would be acceptable? If yes, why is customizing a PS5 to then sell it for more than MSRPG okay with you but not the service of buying a PS5 during a shortage and then selling it to someone who would have otherwise not gotten a device?

Because that's what the supplier is set out to do. We don't need more middle-hands for the sake of creating profit for one individual.
Perhaps this is what you would want it to be, but no, suppliers don't care about distributing products equitably. The only purpose of suppliers is to make a profit.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,805
If scalping wasn't so rampant, this wouldn't be an issue, they're artificially creating stock shortages.

I don't think this is true. Those systems aren't being bought and stored in a warehouse off the market. They're being sold to someone who would have paid MSRP for it if they had a chance. So whether the system is sold at a mark up or at retail price, the supply and demand isn't really that different and the shortage would still be the same.
 

Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
All of that is correct, but you're missing the part I replied to, the one that claimed the way that market inefficiency was resolved was by scalpers buying the exact same product and then re-selling at a higher price, thus solving shortage. Obviously this is nonsense; what economic theory would actually dictate is that either Sony raises PS5's retail price (they won't because they'd rather take the economic hit than the backlash), or other manufacturers provide their own competing products (they won't because the entirety of Sony's ecosystem is propietary).

Scalpers raising prices does in no way, shape or form address the shortage, because the official price as dictated by the seller is still what it is, and people still want to buy at that price.



Whether a good is elastic or inelastic, the only way a "shortage" is solved by scalpers cornering the market is if you entirely change the definition of "shortage".

It addresses the shortage because it removes buyers from the market and gets the market to an equilibrium point. The only reason buyers have NOT been removed from the market in this case is because Sony is willing to add supply in at a price that is lower than the market is willing to pay.
 

Deleted member 2834

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,620
All of that is correct, but you're missing the part I replied to, the one that claimed the way that market inefficiency was resolved was by scalpers buying the exact same product and then re-selling at a higher price, thus solving shortage. Obviously this is nonsense; what economic theory would actually dictate is that either Sony raises PS5's retail price (they won't because they'd rather take the economic hit than the backlash),
I think I understand what you mean. You consider "shortage" as the "unfullfilled desire regardless of whether I can realistically acquire a product", is that what you mean by "actual shortage"? And I suppose the person you talked with used the economic definition which is "a condition where the quantity demanded is greater than the quantity supplied at the market price. " (source) In that case, you're both right but you're using different definitions for the word. In your case, solving a food shortage by simply raising the price to the point where the small amount of available food exactly matches the small amount of people with enough money is of course not a great solution to solve a food shortage. However, I do not think food and a PS5 are analogous at all for rather obvious reasons, right.


Scalpers raising prices does in no way, shape or form address the shortage, because the official price as dictated by the seller is still what it is, and people still want to buy at that price.
This depends on the definition again. But I think you take issue with "solving a shortage" when there are still millions of people left yearning for a PS5?

Going by your definition a PS5 shortage can exclusively be fixed by providing sufficient supply for everyone willing to buy a PS5 at MSRP.

edit: I forgot to address it but I agree with Trigonometrize that if you accept a Sony price increase as a solution, you would have to justify why scalpers can't do it in their stead if Sony is unwilling to do so? Because you pretty much seem to acknowledge what the solution is?
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
All of that is correct, but you're missing the part I replied to, the one that claimed the way that market inefficiency was resolved was by scalpers buying the exact same product and then re-selling at a higher price, thus solving shortage. Obviously this is nonsense; what economic theory would actually dictate is that either Sony raises PS5's retail price (they won't because they'd rather take the economic hit than the backlash), or other manufacturers provide their own competing products (they won't because the entirety of Sony's ecosystem is propietary).
...OR if a third-party raises the price for Sony in the form of scalping.
Scalpers raising prices does in no way, shape or form address the shortage, because the official price as dictated by the seller is still what it is, and people still want to buy at that price.
OK? What does this matter. In the non-scalper world, Sony is selling PS5s for $500, quantity demanded exceeds quantity supplied, and people are stuck F5ing Walmart. In the scalper world, people get PS5s they want at the prices they're willing to pay. You haven't eliminated the shortage at its source of Sony charging too little, but effectively the shortage has been reduced.

Should I have been using the words effectively minimized the shortage this entire time and you would've been down with my argument?
 

Shoshi

Banned
Jan 9, 2018
1,661
you realize that the guy who buys a PS5 from a scalper wants one right? It's not like a scalper sells them to someone who isn't going to play with it. Sony has just as many users as it would had there not been scalpers. You could make the argument that it benefits Sony because those who are in the eco-system right now are more affluent and will likely spend more money on games than someone who won't/can't afford to buy higher than MSRP.
You could make the argument that those buying it for exhorbitant prices just want it to display their wealth and wont invest in much games less do they have any interest in the amazing BC-support which is the main interest for me and many PS4-fans. Getting a PS5 to mainly play PS5 games is stupid considering how big backlog most people have. We have all been eagerly waiting for a proper PS4 Pro and its only the PS5 that can lift those heavy PS4 titles to acceptable performance levels
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I think I understand what you mean. You consider "shortage" as the "unfullfilled desire regardless of whether I can realistically acquire a product", is that what you mean by "actual shortage"? And I suppose the person you talked with used the economic definition which is "a condition where the quantity demanded is greater than the quantity supplied at the market price. " (source) In that case, you're both right but you're using different definitions for the word.

Nope, we're using the exact same definition (the one you just quoted, in fact). Where we differ is in the definition of "market price". There's three positions here:
- Market price is strictly retail price. This is a reasonable position because it's still possible for customers to buy at that price through sufficient effort.
- Market price is some mixture of retail price. This becomes very nebulous indeed; what mixture, precisely? By the strict definition of "price of last transaction", the "market price" is highly volatile and bounces wildly between retail price and scalper price. This is a somewhat shaky position but I can at least see an argument for it. Note however that this position still does not justify the "scalpers solve shortages" argument.
- Market price is strictly the price set by scalpers, simultaneously legitimizing a second-hand market as setting the price for retail, while completely ignoring retail transactions. This is Trigonometrize's stance; the position needed to justify "scalpers solve shortages" argument. It's, of course, self-evidently nonsensical by any rational metric.

In your case, solving a food shortage by simply raising the price to the point where the small amount of available food exactly matches the small amount of people with enough money is of course not a great solution to solve a food shortage. However, I do not think food and a PS5 are analogous at all for rather obvious reasons, right.

Spell out these "obvious" reasons, then. An actor can either solves a shortage, or they can't; how necessary the goods are is not relevant to this. If scalpers can "solve" a shortage, they can do so regardless of whether the shortage is of insulin or diamond-studded dog leashes.

This depends on the definition again. But I think you take issue with "solving a shortage" when there are still millions of people left yearning for a PS5?

Yes, I take issue with calling something a "solution" to a shortage when it does not, in fact, solve the shortage in any way. I tend to be weird like that.

Going by your definition a PS5 shortage can exclusively be fixed by providing sufficient supply for everyone willing to buy a PS5 at MSRP.

That would be correct; which is why scalpers, by definition, can't "solve a shortage".

edit: I forgot to address it but I agree with Trigonometrize that if you accept a Sony price increase as a solution, you would have to justify why scalpers can't do it in their stead if Sony is unwilling to do so? Because you pretty much seem to acknowledge what the solution is?

I've already said why a price increase on the part of Sony would be counterproductive to their consumer perception (see PS3); but if for whatever reason they did hike the price, it would still be obviously preferable for that extra money to go towards the company that actually provides the service, rather than the individuals making it harder to gain access to that service to begin with. I'm frankly shocked I have to point out something that obvious.
 

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,202
But it also suggests that there's a pent-up demand for some reason. Maybe it's because we're confined indoors for recreational activities or maybe it's just due to FOMO surrounding release of new hardware. I don't know.

Low quantity of product available is one issue but Covid makes it 1000 times worse.

Imagine a normal year for most people: gym membership, concert, restaurant, vacation, commuting to work (gas, train ticket) and going to the mall.
Boom covid happens and all that stuff isn't possible.
Not only do people save a shit ton of money but they also have shit to do at home.
All of a sudden 800€ for a PS5 doesn't look as bad as it did in 2019.
 
Nov 4, 2017
480
At times like these, instead of giving opportunities to these people, it's best being patient. Getting a ps5 in six months or one year will, in the end, not make a big difference. Plenty of other stuff can be played in the meantime, and this prevents these scalpers from benefiting from shortages.
 

DaleCooper

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,852
At times like these, instead of giving opportunities to these people, it's best being patient. Getting a ps5 in six months or one year will, in the end, not make a big difference. Plenty of other stuff can be played in the meantime, and this prevents these scalpers from benefiting from shortages.
Your statement is rational. Common consumers are not.

We really shouldn't underestimate a dude bro's bragging rights at the dinner table telling others that he got the newest shiniest tech.
 

thenexus6

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,311
UK
I would rather not own a new console at wait the 6-12 months and get one new myself.
Because 1) I am not supporting these people and 2) if anything goes wrong with the console I am SOL 3) by the time I get one hopefully any bugs or issues will be fixed.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
For live events yes, but for a product that is in mass production just wait. It's fulfilling a need, stupid rich people will pay for it early on and they'd just be posting ads up on Facebook about how much they'd pay if there weren't scalpers committing to be middlemen.
 

chromatic9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,003
A major part of the problem is looking at all these private sellers. Don't even look these people up and this all goes away. Only pay the rrp and with the risk of going to a private seller I would say that it would have to be slightly cheaper than retail.
 

Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
Nope, we're using the exact same definition (the one you just quoted, in fact). Where we differ is in the definition of "market price". There's three positions here:
- Market price is strictly retail price. This is a reasonable position because it's still possible for customers to buy at that price through sufficient effort.
- Market price is some mixture of retail price. This becomes very nebulous indeed; what mixture, precisely? By the strict definition of "price of last transaction", the "market price" is highly volatile and bounces wildly between retail price and scalper price. This is a somewhat shaky position but I can at least see an argument for it. Note however that this position still does not justify the "scalpers solve shortages" argument.
- Market price is strictly the price set by scalpers, simultaneously legitimizing a second-hand market as setting the price for retail, while completely ignoring retail transactions. This is Trigonometrize's stance; the position needed to justify "scalpers solve shortages" argument. It's, of course, self-evidently nonsensical by any rational metric.



Spell out these "obvious" reasons, then. An actor can either solves a shortage, or they can't; how necessary the goods are is not relevant to this. If scalpers can "solve" a shortage, they can do so regardless of whether the shortage is of insulin or diamond-studded dog leashes.



Yes, I take issue with calling something a "solution" to a shortage when it does not, in fact, solve the shortage in any way. I tend to be weird like that.



That would be correct; which is why scalpers, by definition, can't "solve a shortage".



I've already said why a price increase on the part of Sony would be counterproductive to their consumer perception (see PS3); but if for whatever reason they did hike the price, it would still be obviously preferable for that extra money to go towards the company that actually provides the service, rather than the individuals making it harder to gain access to that service to begin with. I'm frankly shocked I have to point out something that obvious.

It's pretty simple. In a free market, the market price is the price at which supply equals demand.

In a truly free market, as supply goes down prices go up. It's the reason why you rarely pay the same amount per gallon/litre of gas at the gas station in two consecutive trips.

Now, with the PS5 you have a supplier (Sony) who is willing to accept LESS than the market price for various reasons (Mainly brand perception). This puts a downward pressure on the market price because some people will decide to wait and try and get it at the below market price (MSRP from Sony) than pay the current market price being set by scalpers. It's also why you won't see the market shortage end until supply meets demand and not price on its own. Which is ironically the only real market conditions where scalpers will pop up and provide the efficiency in the market to fully realize the current market price for a PS5.

The exact opposite happens when a product flops. As supply outstrips demand, retailers put items on clearance to try and increase demand of a product. This is because the MSRP is not the market price. In this case, the market price is the price at which they could sell all of their stock but not one unit more.

Hopefully that clears things up for you.
 

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,202
For live events yes, but for a product that is in mass production just wait.

This is a pretty subjective argument.
I personally agree with you but do you really need to see [instert singer/sports team] at a certain event?

The PS5 has already been out for 3 months and it looks like the shortage could easily continue throughout 2021.
Don't think there is any difference between a gamer who doesn't want to play on outdated hardware for a whole year and a Taylor Swift fan who doesn't want to wait for the next tour.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,050
This is a pretty subjective argument.
I personally agree with you but do you really need to see [instert singer/sports team] at a certain event?

The PS5 has already been out for 3 months and it looks like the shortage could easily continue throughout 2021.
Don't think there is any difference between a gamer who doesn't want to play on outdated hardware for a whole year and a Taylor Swift fan who doesn't want to wait for the next tour.


Something could happen to her and there aren't literally millions of her with millions more being produced along the way


It's okay tho, I'm sure when they abolish the death penalty, they will leave an exception in for *checks notes*

The mean man who bought your video game console before you
 

regenhuber

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,202
Something could happen to her and there aren't literally millions of her with millions more being produced along the way


It's okay tho, I'm sure when they abolish the death penalty, they will leave an exception in for *checks notes*

The mean man who bought your video game console before you

What if I told you there are people out there who don't give a shit about Taylor Swift but will gladly buy a PS5 off eBay?