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Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
You say "actual price," but that's a nebulous concept. PS5 was announced at $499. What if the actual price was $299 or $899? PS5 or some other model will eventually cost less than what it costs now. Does that mean $499 was never the PS5's ACTUAL price and it was Sony who is scalping everyone all along?

There's no price that you're owed to get a scarce resource for. You're either paying higher prices or longer wait times, and I think people should prefer the former.
Sony's hypothetical imaginary markup, if they inflated the price of their own product by several hundred quid, is not the same as the discussion here with scalpers flipping popular items. A console that becomes cheaper to make years later is unlikely to be the same situation as the popularity at launch being exploited here. However, it would absolutely see criticism for it if they inflated the price to such a degree at launch. I think generally people agree on what the actual price locally is as the RRP, that's not a nebulous concept when people think about what something should cost, given that they can see the actual announced price at the same time as they see 'out of stock' and the scalpers profiteering from it.
 
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Deleted member 24097

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
704
Just because it is the lowest hanging fruit doesn't make it any less true. When you're talking about re-selling consumer electronics, I can't bring myself to care. Evidently many others feel the same.

I don't see myself as some kind of genius, but clearly you think you've made some kind of breakthrough here- You're also trotting out old tired arguments and pretending you've stumbled onto something profound. You really haven't.

'Decently formulated idea'. When you craft one, come back and talk to me.

Yawn.
Again, you are on a discussion forum.
Try and understand what that encompasses instead of flailing around.
Go back, read.
If you can't be bothered, consider not engaging.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
You say "actual price," but that's a nebulous concept. PS5 was announced at $499. What if the actual price was $299 or $899? PS5 or some other model will eventually cost less than what it costs now. Does that mean $499 was never the PS5's ACTUAL price and it was Sony who is scalping everyone all along?

I'm completely sure this all seemed a lot smarter in your head, but this is why you have "preview" and "delete post" buttons for.

There's no price that you're owed to get a scarce resource for. You're either paying higher prices or longer wait times, and I think people should prefer the former.

I think people should prefer neither, which they would get if scalpers didn't choke the supply chain.
 

Josh5890

I'm Your Favorite Poster's Favorite Poster
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,173
It isn't fun but at the end of the day it is a two way road. If people are willing to pay extra for the system then of course people will sell them for that rate. I'm in the market for a Series S right now but I refuse to pay over MSRP. I will just keep checking and waiting for them to be available. A video game console is a luxury, not a necessity in order to live.
 

Maxim726x

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
13,050
Yawn.
Again, you are on a discussion forum.
Try and understand what that encompasses instead of flailing around.
Go back, read.
If you can't be bothered, consider not engaging.

So, you do feel like you've stumbled upon some profound argument or something.

You haven't. *You* are choosing not to engage with this perspective because you don't like the simplicity and redundancy of it, but that doesn't make it any less accurate.

Your responses are literally 'yawn' and 'I sleep'. You're engaging in bad faith at the very beginning of your replies.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
When you're talking about re-selling consumer electronics, I can't bring myself to care.

Nothing said "I don't care about this topic" like insistently and repeatedly telling people how little you care instead of closing the tab. Please draw us an elaborate diagram of you, the topic, and your lack of care; we won't get the idea otherwise.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
Sony's hypothetical imaginary markup, if they inflated the price of their own product by several hundred quid, is not the same as the scalping under discussion here with scalpers flipping popular items. However, it would similarly see criticism for it.
They're not literally the same but I don't see how they're different in a meaningful way. It's just a higher price for a product.

Look, you obviously don't like the situation because of the inequities it introduces that otherwise wouldn't be there without scalpers. Wealthier People that can afford the scalper price get to buy, and that takes away the chances of a poorer person that is forced to wait getting one quicker. However, at the end of the day, there are better ways to address inequities in society than pushing for a larger shortage than there has to be in an individual goods market.
 

Deleted member 24097

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
704
So, you do feel like you've stumbled upon some profound argument or something.

You haven't. *You* are choosing not to engage with this perspective because you don't like the simplicity and redundancy of it, but that doesn't make it any less accurate.

Your responses are literally 'yawn' and 'I sleep'. You're engaging in bad faith at the very beginning of your replies.

I'm simply trying to politely -albeit somewhat sarcastically- invite you to read previous pages because everything you are saying has already been discussed.
Now can we stop derailing and move on?
 

Maxim726x

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
13,050
I'm simply trying to politely -albeit somewhat sarcastically- invite you to read previous pages because everything you are saying has already been discussed.
Now can we stop derailing and move on?

It's... Not a derail?

A) You replied to me
B) It's central to the question raised in the thread. I do not believe scalpers of the scum of the earth, and told you why. You didn't like it, replied with what I'm sure you believed to be some kind of sick burn.

Again- You don't like the argument. Sorry?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
They're not literally the same but I don't see how they're different in a meaningful way. It's just a higher price for a product.

Look, you obviously don't like the situation because of the inequities it introduces that otherwise wouldn't be there without scalpers. Wealthier People that can afford the scalper price get to buy, and that takes away the chances of a poorer person that is forced to wait getting one quicker. However, at the end of the day, there are better ways to address inequities in society than pushing for a larger shortage than there has to be in an individual goods market.
Sorry, what? Saying that intervening to make sure popular items are only supplied to wealthy customers is wrong is 'pushing for a larger shortage'? The people with their foot on an already constricted supply pipeline immediately in front of the consumer here is the scalpers. And saying that any minor bias towards the wealthy can't be dealt with until wider inequality is handled is pretty much saying 'nothing can be done until problems that have plagued us for centuries are handled', conveniently excusing all such minor biases from being addressed going forwards until that happens. We can handle lots of issues at the same time, big and small.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
I'm completely sure this all seemed a lot smarter in your head, but this is why you have "preview" and "delete post" buttons for.
If there's anything you don't understand about my correct argument, I can explain it to you. Sony can charge any price they want for PS5, and that can either cause a massive shortage even bigger than the one we're experiencing, or they can bring the market into equilibrium. There's no such thing as an "actual price"; it's ALWAYS a moving target. Holding the input costs of a console being equal, after a while a console gets cheaper in the same way a scalper makes the console more expensive. Two sides of the same coin.

I think people should prefer neither, which they would get if scalpers didn't choke the supply chain.
Wrong. They would still have long wait times. No one prefering neither is ever going to be happy until we solve the limits of initial console manufacture and scarcity itself. If scalpers scalped 100% of units from retailers though, we'd ONLY have higher prices.
 
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Deleted member 24097

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
704
It's... Not a derail?

A) You replied to me
B) It's central to the question raised in the thread. I do not believe scalpers of the scum of the earth, and told you why. You didn't like it, replied with what I'm sure you believed to be some kind of sick burn.

Again- You don't like the argument. Sorry?

I replied saying your point had been made time and time again, and countered time and time again.
You somehow refuse to go back and read the rest of the conversation - despite there only being 6 pages.
That is on you, not on me. This ludicrous skirmish between you and me on the other hand is absolutely derailing the thread, and this will be my last reply to this specific development which is of zero interest to anyone but, perhaps, your own micro-ego.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
Sony can charge any price they want for PS5, and that can either cause a massive shortage even bigger than the one we're experiencing, or they can bring the market into equilibrium. There's no such thing as an "actual price"; it's ALWAYS a moving target. Holding the input costs of a console being equal, a console gets cheaper in the same way a scalper makes the console more expensive. Two sides of the same coin.
Exploitation of immediate supply/demand issues by scalpers pushing up the price by several hundred quid to cash in on people who can afford to pay more is so not 'the other side of the coin' of the economies of scale and reduced price of components that allow devices to have their RRP drop over time due to reduced production costs.

The former is artificially exploiting and pushing up the RRP in the moment due to a choked supply. There's a reason consoles are largely sold at cost or a little over rather than the manufacturer seeing demand and doubling the price, as they plan to make the money on software. The latter is reducing it for the entire product line, at a predictable timescale of a couple of years, for all devices going forward indefinitely from that point. It's usually setting a sustainable reduced price through a new model going forwards to give a bump in demand, not just exploiting a short-term opportunity to cash in.
 
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Ramirez

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,228
People do the same with art prints, it used to be one of my favorite hobbies. Now I don't even bother trying to purchase them. Only real solution is for people to not buy at the ridiculous prices, because companies still get the money, they don't care.
 

Cru Jones

Member
Oct 28, 2017
114
Incorrect: it's what the richest x% of the market is willing to pay for them. All scalpers do is make sure these consoles go to the highest bidder; at that point, you may as well auction them individually. People that can't afford scalper prices are left out.

Blaming Sony for wanting their console to have a reasonable price for everyone, rather than the scalpers making sure only affluent people can afford them, and justifying it all with "market forces" as if scalpers had no moral responsibility whatsoever, is a ridiculously laissez-faire capitalistic view of the situation.

I don't know what else to say, except you're wrong. If you're truly interested in what's at work here you should go pick up an economic text book. Yes, rich people are a part of the market, just like poor people are. But it's still the market. You're acting like everyone who is buying off of a scalper is pulling up in a diamond encrusted sports car, which just isn't the case.
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,937
California
It's the weekend, I'm hungover so it's time for a rant. If you intend to come in here defending the practice of scalping take it somewhere else.
I don't like that you start a discussion and then limit it to only opinions like yours. While I don't agree with scalping, people are free to defend this if they like.

I can think of worse people than this OP because people are willing to pay the scalpers premium. Getting an item to turn a profit is what all business do, except scalpers jack the prices to the moon and that's the problem.

My advice is if you don't like it, don't buy it. I have never paid scalpers premium and don't plan to, but there are people willing to do it so. If people weren't, there would not be a market for it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
Scalpers are shitty predatory people who make things worse for everyone else. I hope they lose their source of income.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
Sorry, what? Saying that intervening to make sure popular items are only supplied to wealthy customers is wrong is 'pushing for a larger shortage'? The people with their foot on an already constricted supply pipeline immediately in front of the consumer here is the scalpers. And saying that any minor bias towards the wealthy can't be dealt with until wider inequality is handled is pretty much saying 'nothing can be done until problems that have plagued us for centuries are handled', conveniently excusing all such minor biases from being addressed going forwards until that happens. We can handle lots of issues at the same time, big and small.
But that's absolutely what anti-scalper sentiment is doing. The degree to which scalping happens is inversely correlated with the magnitude of a shortage. 100% scalping would result in a minimized shortage.

I don't think it's an issue to be dealt with at the individual market level though. Poor people will still be poor, just with long wait times for the goods they want.

Exploitation of immediate supply/demand issues by scalpers pushing up the price by several hundred quid to cash in on people who can afford to pay more is so not 'the other side of the coin' of the economies of scale and reduced price of components that allow devices to have their RRP drop over time due to reduced production costs.
That's why I said holding the input costs of a console being equal. Because I'm talking strictly about demand. Over time for a console, the price of a console goes down because you arrive at people who are less willing to pay a higher price for the same console making up the market. It's the other side of the coin of at the beginning when people who are more willing to pay the higher price are giving their money to scalpers.
 

SAINT_

Banned
Oct 4, 2020
460
Scum of the earth? lol I have flipped luxury items in the past to make a quick buck. Blame the morons who pay the markup prices instead of waiting a couple months for the hype to die down.

yeshrug.png
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
But that's absolutely what anti-scalper sentiment is doing. The degree to which scalping happens is inversely correlated with the magnitude of a shortage. 100% scalping would result in a minimized shortage.

I don't think it's an issue to be dealt with at the individual market level though. Poor people will still be poor, just with long wait times for the goods they want.


That's why I said holding the input costs of a console being equal. Because I'm talking strictly about demand. Over time for a console, the price of a console goes down because you arrive at people who are less willing to pay a higher price for the same console making up the market. It's the other side of the coin of at the beginning when people who are more willing to pay the higher price are giving their money to scalpers.
I have read this probably 20 times and I gotta be honest that I have zero clue what you are trying to say. Not one of these paragraphs, nor any individual sentence within them, make any sense to me at all.

I am hoping to hear you out here but I would need you to try and explain what you're saying differently because this whole post is incomprehensible.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,035
Pennsylvania
It sucks but retailers are 100% complicit in this as well, all of them only doing online orders for the new systems is creating a situation where a few efficient scalpers with payment methods saved and accounts at the ready can clear out a whole shipment in under a minute.
 

cakely

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,149
Chicago
Yes, they're awful.

Of course, scalpers would completely vanish if the market wasn't willing to take the risk and drop an extra $300 to buy a PS5.

Everyone needs to do their part and stop buying from scalpers.

I'm pretty surprised at the people in this thread defending scalping.
 

MrRob

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,671
Same. There have been quite a few times over the past 3 months that I've been a button click away from paying double the price on Ebay. I'm so tired of the grind. I'm always several minutes late to whatever PS5 drop happens and of course in this day and age minutes are like hours. It's incredibly frustrating but I'm holding strong. FUCK SCALPERS.
 

TheOMan

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
7,117
Anyone who hasn't been able to get one make sure you're using the direct to cart links. Refresh them a million times around the time they announce availability.

the direct to cart link literally eliminates the whole first step of loading the webpage and putting it into cart and is needed to beat the bots

How do you get direct to cart links?
 

Bulebule

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,803
Best and only way to fight scalpers is simply to not buy anything from them, especially for increased price. Let them buy their consoles and not be able to sell them and make them lose money that way. Give them zero return of investment. Zero, zilch, zip, nada.

As long as people are willing to pay extra for stuff, scalpers will always have a spot in market.
 

MrRob

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,671
Anyone who hasn't been able to get one make sure you're using the direct to cart links. Refresh them a million times around the time they announce availability.

the direct to cart link literally eliminates the whole first step of loading the webpage and putting it into cart and is needed to beat the bots
How do I do this?
 

shintoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,078
Been on both sides. Could care less most of the time, just don't be a douche about it. The "Well because times were tough I had to sell Wiis on the street". Just say you like money and if you don't want to pay... then don't pay. You'll get the new shiny toy eventually.
 
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ginger ninja

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,060
While it sucks, the whole oppression narrative around it so much cringe. It's a fucking console ffs, you will get one eventually. I have to say it's the ultimate first world problem.
 

SAINT_

Banned
Oct 4, 2020
460
Been on both sides. Could care less, just don't be a douche about it and say, "Well because times were tough I had do to sell Wiis on the street". Just say you like money.

I've read multiple stories on reddit of people putting PS5's on their cc's and using the profits to pay off bills. I believe all of them, times ARE tough out there for some.

While it sucks, the whole oppression narrative around it so much cringe. It's a fucking console ffs, you will get one eventually. I have to say it's the ultimate first world problem.

I agree, now that hand sanitizer situation was fucked. No excusing that shit.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,245
It's hilarious and telling that you posit "prices will inevitably go up" as an universal truth when the actual situation is "prices will go up because of these very scalpers exacerbating the artificial scarcity and causing prices to go up". That's what scalpers do.

Stop painting scalpers as an inevitable force of physics with no say or moral obligation in the matter; nobody is buying it except other scalpers seeking validation.
Exactly.

Sure, finding a PS5 or an RTX30 card would still be hard because of demand, but if scalpers weren't hoarding stock and them along with retailers end up jacking prices, a $500 GPU like the 3070 wouldn't be listed for 800 dollars if not even more. If you find it in the first place, that is.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,821
I refuse to support scalping and will just wait it out. Too many people impatient to get their electronics when they are eventually available for MSRP are propping the whole scalping system up for these particular items. It's so bad that normal people get one of these and realize that they'd be foolish to keep it instead of moving it along for a significant amount of profit. I can't stop people from being foolish with their money and will be waiting patiently for availability at MSRP.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,325
I have no (non-bannable) words for how fucked up this argument is, but let's start with the notion that "the appropriate price for something is whatever the richest person is willing to pay" is the kind of objectivist far-right bullshit by which millionaire sociopaths justify completely fucking up society and anyone that's not one of them.
The price of a PS5 going up because more people want it than there are PS5s is, like, the core tenant of liberalism dude...
 

Josh5890

I'm Your Favorite Poster's Favorite Poster
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
23,173
Something else I will add is that while material shortages are a big reason for the low availability of the product, another reason is that logistic supply chains are incredibly choked right now. I found out at work yesterday that Long Beach/Los Angeles port has approximately 20,000 import containers stuck waiting to move out. Most are waiting at least 30 days at the port. Something else that you can thank COVID for.

It isn't just a problem that Sony isn't making enough. The product simply can't be moved efficiently enough right now and with COVID still wrecking having on the port and other areas, that is a problem that is going to continue for several more months.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
I have read this probably 20 times and I gotta be honest that I have zero clue what you are trying to say. Not one of these paragraphs, nor any individual sentence within them, make any sense to me at all.

I am hoping to hear you out here but I would need you to try and explain what you're saying differently because this whole post is incomprehensible.
A shortage is when demand exceeds supply at a certain price. People want to buy something, but they can't. If Sony is willing to sell its 100 PS5s at $500, and 200 people are willing to buy at that price, you have a shortage, because 100 people will be up a hill. Under the basic market model, the price would be raised until everyone who wants to buy a PS5 at that price gets one. Let's say it's at $800. The same exact thing works in reverse. If Sony is willing to sell its 100 PS5s at $500 but only 50 are willing to buy at that price, you have a surplus. And the model says Sony would lower the price until everyone who can buy a PS5 gets one. And we might see that later on in a generation: people several years down the line are predictably much less willing to pay $500 for the console, so the price might get lowered to $400. Put a pin in that concept. The cost of production of these consoles also happens to go down over time, but that's a separate thing that we can ignore for now.

Shortages and surpluses are generally BAD. They are inefficiencies that markets tend to avoid, but as we can see in this real-world example, not always. Price is an efficient way for producers and consumers to signal their willingness to trade goods, and when there's a breakdown, we get things like wait times. Rationing. Things that, efficiency wise, we would've preferred have just been mitigated by letting a price be fluid.

Now we arrive at scalpers. By realizing there's a shortage, to some degree they are able to gather the products and redistribute them based upon price. That's what we want from an efficiency perspective. People that willing to pay get consoles first, people that are less willing will wait for the console to come down. But even if they are less willing, as long as they are more willing that the original MSRP, they are more likely to get one in a timely and orderly manner than F5ing Walmart, crossing fingers on PSDirect, eyes glued to Wario 64, or staying up to 3am. Time that could've spent doing other things. Scalpers DO serve a function, and that is reducing shortage and that bad things that come with it. The more scalper, the less inefficiency, as nails on a chalkboard as that might sound.

OK, so remember my pin in demand going up and down? My point in that chain is the price is a moving target. The "actual price," if there is one, would be where there is no shortage and no surplus. The equilibrium. The actual price, in this case, is definitely not the $500 that Sony put MSRP at, because it's just an articifial price ceiling as we might call it. If the retail price of PS5 reduces from $500 to $400 after a few years, no one says Sony is giving you a $100 discount on the "actual price" of a PS5. All it is, beyond the components becoming cheaper, is the price meeting the demand. And the same logic applies to scalping, even if it's not Sony or the retailers themselves doing it. Scalpers are not charging extra in any different way than Sony is charging less when the price goes down. So arguing with the premise of $500 being the "actual price" in any kind of normative sense because that's where Sony sells it at doesn't really make sense. It could be $600 or $400 and we'd still be in the same situation.
 
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noatak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
51
I actually ignore scalpers most of the time. As I'm sure other people have pointed out, just wait it out and you'll get whatever you wanted eventually. There is one thing that bothers me though, specifically as a ton of shopping has now moved to an online model. And that's the use of bots to basically reduce the chance of any regular buyer ever getting an item that is relatively rare in the first place (i.e. Nvidia gpus etc.). I think something should be done by lawmakers to make the use of bots illegal (if that's possible). But that's pretty much the only thing that annoys me. Other than that, like with a lot of things, it's just a matter of time and learning to keep your impulses in check.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
Best and only way to fight scalpers is simply to not buy anything from them, especially for increased price. Let them buy their consoles and not be able to sell them and make them lose money that way. Give them zero return of investment. Zero, zilch, zip, nada.

As long as people are willing to pay extra for stuff, scalpers will always have a spot in market.
An even better way to fight scalpers is to get your government to legislate against the practice.
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
How do you get direct to cart links?
What they are is a url that you use instead of trying to refresh the page on the website. You're essentially skipping one step in the process therefore you are faster than most people.

you make sure you're already signed into the site and keep yourself signed into the site but you use the direct cart link

as to how to get them stay updated in the topic that people here use currently to find ps5 and xsx

it's a simple url you copy and paste.
You need to keep current in the topic. Someone in the topic always posts them while the websites are saying they're getting ready to sell them
 
Mar 10, 2018
8,716
Yes, we really should not be discussing literally anything as long as a bigger problems exist. Mods, please close the thread until bigotry is solved.

I will readily admit I didn't wake up this morning expecting to read "well at least they're not slavers and rapists" as an argument to defend scalpers.
I never said that. Nor am I "defending" scalping. I'm saying that framing scalpers as one of the worst things in the world is an incredibly privileged take.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,400
Spot on with the ableist language.


So a grandma falling for a scam, in your opinion, is also "a fool being parted with their money " I guess?

How do you define a fool?

A fool is someone who acts impulsively and imprudently leading to them being easily duped out of their money.

If grandma is spending $1200-1500 for a PS5 for Jane then it is fair to say she acted foolishly.

Also, calling a spade a spade is not ableist language.
 

Bulebule

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,803
An even better way to fight scalpers is to get your government to legislate against the practice.

Unfortunately hard to do that because many scalpers have bought the original item legally and as long as everything has been handed properly (a promised price, payment from B a to A and delivery from person A to B), there is nothing that cannot be done in terms of law unless government makes all third-hand marketplaces illegal. It's a matter of moral and ethics. Besides governments are the last stronghold to ban anything immoral especially if money is involved in any way.
 

DJKippling

Member
Nov 1, 2017
923
Personally i think the answer is to make it illegal to sell above rrp for a year of a new product being released or something. then fine everyone on ebay / gumtree etc a ridiculous amount should they do it. should be pretty trivial to setup.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,325
If scalping wasn't so rampant, this wouldn't be an issue, they're artificially creating stock shortages.
It would absolutely still be an issue. It's literally only an issue because there's not enough consoles total. What % of manufactured consoles do you honestly think are sitting in a black market warehouse artificially creating stock shortages? 0.5%? Maybe 1%?
 
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