I feel like we still don't "get" end of the year Best Of lists

[entremet]

Seeing the thread for Paste Magazine, it seems we're falling down the same rabbit hole as previously.

"Game X is listed. List is garbage"

"Where's Game X?"

"Game X is above Game Y? Nah"

I've always seen best of lists as ways to discover new media that I may have missed that year. I also love the diversity of picks and opinions. If every list looked the same, what's the point?

Moreover, don't people understand these lists are written by people or a group of people. They're not read outs of top MC scores. Why can't we get this?

Why do people look at these lists with such personal rancor?

 

[blast0rama]

I, personally, think it's weird that End of Year Best of Lists are created before December 31st?

I mean....stuff is still to come out in the next few weeks.

 

[bitSS]

Because their favorite release is not in there, or has a low rank.

 

[okayfrog]

It's bad with movies, but it's noticeably worse with video games as more than likely, video game fans don't consume as many video games as movie fans consume movies. Look at RDR2. In the time it'd take me to complete the game, I would have watched at least 20+ movies. Because of this -- and because of the investment some games require -- people can feel more connected with them, leading to people taking their absences from year end lists more personal.

 

[Deleted member 3017]

oh, people get them.

They just can't deal with their favorite game being snubbed, even though it's almost never an actual snub, and simply a difference in preference.

Basically, lots of people can't deal with preferences that differ from their own. It's sad.

 

[Kinthey]

Aren't they still list that compile the best games of the year? It makes sense that there would be confusion if it completely ommits what you personally considered the best game. It's not that different from Oscar snubs to me.

 

[Cess007]

I've always seen best of lists as ways to discover new media that I may have missed that year.

Click to shrink...

This is how it should be taken. Instead, people want confirmation bias lists.

 

[Deleted member 11976]

Some people only look at such lists to have their own tastes and biases validated.

I'm with you, though, I look at these lists to see if I've missed something. It's impossible to keep up with the frequency of releases (big and small) so these lists are really helpful.

 

[DrMoguera]

I think rather than decrying the discussion around it, it might be more useful to see it as a symptom that these lists themselves aren't really that useful or interesting to anyone.

 

[okayfrog]

I think rather than decrying the discussion around it, it might be more useful to see it as a symptom that these lists themselves aren't really that useful or interesting to anyone.

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But the OP himself said that he finds these lists to be useful. I, myself, find them to be useful in the same way the OP did. I've already downloaded two games I hadn't heard of previously thanks to GOTY lists.

 

[Eumi]

Insecure people desperately need validation.

 

[aerozombie]

My favorite is when it's someones personal list and people are disagreeing with what a person liked. There can be some objectivity in the best, but a personal list never is

 

[entremet]

I think rather than decrying the discussion around it, it might be more useful to see it as a symptom that these lists themselves aren't really that useful or interesting to anyone.

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It's how I find out of about games I missed. I already have a wishlist of 5 games I developed from the Paste Magazine list. So I disagree.

Not just with games. Same with music and movie end of the year lists.

 

[DrMoguera]

But the OP himself said that he finds these lists to be useful. I, myself, find them to be useful in the same way the OP did. I've already downloaded two games I hadn't heard of previously thanks to GOTY lists.

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That's fine, but do you need a GOTY list for that? Is that in any way superior to a games you may have missed or a personal favorites list? It's a different conversation right? Game of the year has an aura of more objective grandeur to it, which is where the arguments come from. The internet is full of lists and opinions, having some kind of ranking like this is what creates bad conversations, in my view.

 

[Treasure Silvergun]

You just have to admit that that particular list is... peculiar. And very, very baity.

You don't make a "BEST of" list like that. It's deliberately incendiary.

I'm all for putting minor releases in the spotlight once a year (or more), and I'm as averse to Metascores as a seal of quality as you'll find around here. But you don't make a "Best of" list that plainly subverts expectations just for the giggles.

You can legitimately like Pokémon LG better than God of War (I'd probably do, but I don't have a PS4 so I just can't tell). But that list is so much more than that. Even I can't take you seriously if you put GoW that low in a Top 30.

Just make your article "Most notable 2018 games that aren't RDR2 or God of War" and suddenly people will take you much more seriously. There will always be people who won't touch indies and less-than-state-of-the-art games with a 10-miles Bluetooth connection, but they won't feel like they have to throw shit at your article.

 

[Servbot24]

Sometimes it can be hard to tell if a list is simply someone's genuine opinion, or if a site is trying to make a statement about the overall quality of a game. For example IGN is probably going to try and make a list that is useful to a mass audience instead of the games they simply liked the most, and in that case it's more understandable why a reader might be annoyed at certain inclusions or exclusions. On the other hand I recognize RDR2 is very high quality but it won't be anywhere near my list because it's just not my thing.

 

[Sabretooth]

Review score aggregation culture has fucked everything up by promoting the idea that diverse games can be compared to each other by numerical scores. Once you've inculcated a mindset like that, it makes total sense. It's like making a list of top 10 tallest buildings and not including the Burj Khalifa in it. Of course the list is wrong because the numerically proven 'best' game isn't on it.

Another idea I have is that games are seen as half-art, half-technological product. Unlike movies or books, we're tempted to consider a game as good on its technological merits alone. That the game functions as it is intended is, by itself, a feat that gets the game into 70-80% scores. Art can't be given a score, but technological products can be. You can objectively say that one phone is better than another, or one TV is better than another. I think that because of the nature of video games as a medium, people are often tempted to see them in the same light.

I think books and movies don't have this problem because the culture around them has been going on long before review aggregation systems. I rarely see people complain Book X or Movie Y isn't on someone's top 10 list, because it's understood they may not have read/watched that, or it wasn't to their liking.

 

[entremet]

You just have to admit that that particular list is... peculiar. And very, very baity.

You don't make a "BEST of" list like that. It's deliberately incendiary.

I'm all for putting minor releases in the spotlight once a year (or more), and I'm as averse to Metascores as a seal of quality as you'll find around here. But you don't make a "Best of" list that plainly subverts expectations just for the giggles.

You can legitimately like Pokémon LG better than God of War (I'd probably do, but I don't have a PS4 so I just can't tell). But that list is so much more than that. Even I can't take you seriously if you put GoW that low in a Top 30.

Just make your article "Most notable 2018 games that aren't RDR2 or God of War" and suddenly people will take you much more seriously. There will always be people who won't touch indies and less-than-state-of-the-art games with a 10-miles Bluetooth connection, but they won't feel like they have to throw shit at your article.

Click to shrink...

Don't you understand that Best is a subjective category? It's assumed.

Not everyone cares for RDR2 or GoW. Why is that so hard to believe?

 

[Deleted member 47843]

Why do people look at these lists with such personal rancor?

Click to shrink...

People are egoistic assholes and think their opinion is the gospel truth and all others are garbage. Made worse by the internet and social media era which has made so many people feel compelled to have strong opinions on everything and share them as frequently and boldly as they can while fishing for likes, upvotes, forum quotes, retweets and so on.

 

[Cantaim]

I echo your feelings. I always look to game of the year lists as a way to find interesting titles I may have missed.

 

[Kill3r7]

Best of lists are problematic because typically you have a subjective list being treated as an objective one. The GB folks had a discussion on this topic a while back where ultimately they said their lists are subjective.

 

[entremet]

Best of lists are problematic because typically you have a subjective list being treated as an objective one. The GB folks had a discussion on this topic a while back where ultimately they said their lists are subjective.

Click to shrink...

There are no objective best of list, though. Why is this strange assumption being made?

 

[marrec]

It's how I find out of about games I missed. I already have a wishlist of 5 games I developed from the Paste Magazine list. So I disagree.

Not just with games. Same with music and movie end of the year lists.

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Would you mind linking to the list? I wanna check it out.

 

[dancingphlower]

The list by itself isn't useful but the reasoning given for why certain games placed on the list and where they placed on the list can offer up some new insights and perspectives.

 

[Kill3r7]

There are no objective best of list, though. Why is this strange assumption being made?

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Agreed but as others have said, "people like to have their tastes validated". Hence why sales, metacritic scores and GOTY awards are used as affirmation that a game is "objectively" great. This is not just a gamer thing, same idea applies to movies, music, sports (stats make it a bit more objective) etc.

 

[AzVal]

Todd & Aaron's are the only "best of" that matters

 

[AvernOffset]

I've always seen best of lists as ways to discover new media that I may have missed that year. I also love the diversity of picks and opinions. If every list looked the same, what's the point?

Click to shrink...

I agree 100% with this take.

Moreover, don't people understand these lists are written by people or a group of people.

Click to shrink...

But because of this, I wind up not liking a lot of lists. I feel like most of the big lists wind up being homogenized. More obscure games end up played by fewer people on a site's staff, and subsequently are given less weight, and everything trends towards the big titles everyone knows about.

This is why I really love Giant Bomb's GOTY content. They record the GOTY process, so you can both see how silly it all is and get to hear whenever has some impassioned defense for a game that gets cut or barely makes the list (See Austin Walker's Invisible Inc defense as a great example). Then, on the site, they also post their personal lists and even bring in industry people to post their lists, so you get a ton of variety across all of them. It's fantastic.

 

[Deleted member 11214]

Every year I get ridiculously excited about Wire's "Rewind," which is their albums of the year feature. This year I'd only heard 12 of the 50 albums on the list, one of which I absolutely did not like. To me, that means there is a ton of interesting stuff to discover, and it's neat to read someone's thoughts on those albums I did get the chance to listen to.

Granted, I follow this stuff a little too closely, and games writers are often generalists, so there's not a lot to discover in the games space, however I still like reading stuff from good writers looking back on games I also experienced.

That's all this stuff is. Year-end lists aren't canon-defining or objective, and often the best games from this year won't be viewed as the best games of this year next year. It's just an opportunity to reflect and discover.

 

[Alucrid]

i just copy my personal list from the highest metacritic scores that way i can't be wrong

 

[Euron]

I actually feel like the emphasis on Game of the Year lists has decreased more than ever in recent years. It probably has to do with me getting older and not caring as much about the tastes of critics, but I still feel like they're just casually released now instead of built up and hyped endlessly like years prior. This is particularly the case with websites like IGN and Gamespot, since their awards used to be major events. But that probably has more to do with the sites themselves losing popularity. Giant Bomb still gets a ton of coverage here but that's only because their podcast is pretty popular with Era.

But it's pretty easy to see that the awards are kinda meaningless when a game like Dragon Age Inquisition could sweep one year then be completely forgotten as soon as a year later. The formulas for these awards have gotten kinda boring especially, with the award always going to either the newest big open world or Naughty Dog game. You can tell from the start that Red Dead Redemption 2 will win almost everything this year while The Last of Us 2 will next year. That's why I never understand the freakouts since it's obvious what will win beforehand.

 

[zuf]

People are egoistic assholes and think their opinion is the gospel truth and all others are garbage. Made worse by the internet and social media era which has made so many people feel compelled to have strong opinions on everything and share them as frequently and boldly as they can while fishing for likes, upvotes, forum quotes, retweets and so on.

Click to shrink...

This is it. Everyone has an opinion on everything these days but it's not enough just having one, other people's have to be wrong.

 

[Static]

I haven't even heard of Florence.

My reaction though wasn't "Why on earth is a game I've never heard of beating all of my favourite games," it's "I need to find out what that is."

People are too invested in their own tastes.

 

[MoonFrog]

It isn't just GotY lists. When we were doing the essentials thread, the single most disheartening thing were hot takes about why the list was "wrong." A lot of work was put into that by the team and whenever it just became a pissing contest it was so frustrating.

There is fun to be had around the numbers, sure, they are presented that way for a reason.

But...the main purpose of the essentials list is an organizing point for people to write a lot about RPGs they love and for other people to read those words and find games that have fallen off their radar or to give them that final push to try them.

 

[somedaythefire]

Title should be "I feel like we still don't "get" opinions". It's the same with reviews.

 

[violent]

Why do people look at these lists with such personal rancor?

Click to shrink...

Some people choose to look at disagreement as a judgment of themselves.

 

[Springy]

You just have to admit that that particular list is... peculiar. And very, very baity.

You don't make a "BEST of" list like that. It's deliberately incendiary.

I'm all for putting minor releases in the spotlight once a year (or more), and I'm as averse to Metascores as a seal of quality as you'll find around here. But you don't make a "Best of" list that plainly subverts expectations just for the giggles.

You can legitimately like Pokémon LG better than God of War (I'd probably do, but I don't have a PS4 so I just can't tell). But that list is so much more than that. Even I can't take you seriously if you put GoW that low in a Top 30.

Just make your article "Most notable 2018 games that aren't RDR2 or God of War" and suddenly people will take you much more seriously. There will always be people who won't touch indies and less-than-state-of-the-art games with a 10-miles Bluetooth connection, but they won't feel like they have to throw shit at your article.

Click to shrink...

Your approach is exactly the problem being discussed. You seem to have issue with there being a sincere belief by anybody compiling a list that "Game X" belongs or "Game Y" doesn't, or is lower than the aforementioned Game X.

Like, three of my five favorite games of this year were on that list. Two were not. Was it a snub? Was it intentional trolling? No. It's an opinion and it's valid. It's insulting to assume otherwise as a default position. It implies that there's a "right" list and a "wrong" list.

 

[Dabanton]

It sadly happens every year especially on places like this.

Whats funny is the same sort of gamers would piss and moan about 'casuals' buying FIFA or CoD like drones then decry a writer their own opinion because their not salivating over whatever massive AAA game that doesn't need the attention isn't on their list.

I like reading these lists partially because we as people do have different ideas of whats is good to us.

 

[somedaythefire]

You just have to admit that that particular list is... peculiar. And very, very baity.

You don't make a "BEST of" list like that. It's deliberately incendiary.

I'm all for putting minor releases in the spotlight once a year (or more), and I'm as averse to Metascores as a seal of quality as you'll find around here. But you don't make a "Best of" list that plainly subverts expectations just for the giggles.

You can legitimately like Pokémon LG better than God of War (I'd probably do, but I don't have a PS4 so I just can't tell). But that list is so much more than that. Even I can't take you seriously if you put GoW that low in a Top 30.

Just make your article "Most notable 2018 games that aren't RDR2 or God of War" and suddenly people will take you much more seriously. There will always be people who won't touch indies and less-than-state-of-the-art games with a 10-miles Bluetooth connection, but they won't feel like they have to throw shit at your article.

Click to shrink...

What I have to admit is you're a baby that has no idea what an opinion is.

 

[Remember]

As a fan of Giantbomb, my only gripe with them is that they tend to ignore the previous year's December releases in order to get you a list by the end of the year. It ends up being a lost/forgotten month almost every year with them and others who do this.

 

[MechanicalWall]

You just have to admit that that particular list is... peculiar. And very, very baity.

You don't make a "BEST of" list like that. It's deliberately incendiary.

I'm all for putting minor releases in the spotlight once a year (or more), and I'm as averse to Metascores as a seal of quality as you'll find around here. But you don't make a "Best of" list that plainly subverts expectations just for the giggles.

You can legitimately like Pokémon LG better than God of War (I'd probably do, but I don't have a PS4 so I just can't tell). But that list is so much more than that. Even I can't take you seriously if you put GoW that low in a Top 30.

Just make your article "Most notable 2018 games that aren't RDR2 or God of War" and suddenly people will take you much more seriously. There will always be people who won't touch indies and less-than-state-of-the-art games with a 10-miles Bluetooth connection, but they won't feel like they have to throw shit at your article.

Click to shrink...

Why the hell am I obligated to like God of War and RDR2? If I want to put those games on a bottom 10 of the year list that's my own damn business.

 

[More_Badass]

Aren't they still list that compile the best games of the year? It makes sense that there would be confusion if it completely ommits what you personally considered the best game. It's not that different from Oscar snubs to me.

Click to shrink...

There's no such thing as "best" anything of the year, unless you're going by most sold or most played. Best movie, best books, best games is and has always merely been "the movies, books, games that I enjoyed the most, that resonated the most" for whoever is compling the lists

 

[Ultron]

Games that I haven't heard of appearing on someone's best of list is an exciting moment. I haven't played this thing and someone else though it was one of their top X experiences of the whole year! And it's immediately available! I can check a few videos and then buy it myself right now if it looks like my jam!

 

[Deleted member 47843]

There are no objective best of list, though. Why is this strange assumption being made?

Click to shrink...

1) The point I others made about how society, and especially the internet, has made everyone feel compelled to not only have strong opinions but to defend there's as "right."

2) Semantic nitpicking over "best" meaning something objective and "favorite" being subjective.

3) Some people just like to troll by attacking others opinions and creating drama.

 

[closer]

Internet all about unsolicited opinions about stuff you dont care about, working as intended

 

[iiicon]

It's incredibly insulting to the authors of these lists to suggest that the time they spend thinking and writing about games is anything other than their genuine opinion. It flattens and derails discussion that should be about celebrating what you truly care about. You see that here on Era as well in OTs, LTTP threads, or threads discussing certain games from a particular angle. It's so frustrating.

Every year I get ridiculously excited about Wire's "Rewind," which is their albums of the year feature. This year I'd only heard 12 of the 50 albums on the list, one of which I absolutely did not like. To me, that means there is a ton of interesting stuff to discover, and it's neat to read someone's thoughts on those albums I did get the chance to listen to.

Click to shrink...

Whoa, did not expect to see The Wire referenced in this thread! It's one of my favourite sources for new music.

 

[Gentlemen]

Seeing the thread for Paste Magazine, it seems we're falling down the same rabbit hole as previously.

"Game X is listed. List is garbage"

"Where's Game X?"

"Game X is above Game Y? Nah"

I've always seen best of lists as ways to discover new media that I may have missed that year. I also love the diversity of picks and opinions. If every list looked the same, what's the point?

Click to shrink...

Preach.

I dread every 'best of 2018' list discussions on gaming side exactly because of the concentration of all the bad behavior witnessed in review threads.
"Clickbait!"
"lol a mobile game"
"[insert multibillion dollar AAAA franchise here] was robbed! list invalid!"

Every. Dang. Time.

Grow up, children.

 

[Shelbyville Milhouse]

If GotY lists were "objective" there would be no lists
There would be one universally agreed list - probably based on a mixture of the Metacritic scores and sales - and that's it.
Sounds fun to me

 

[8bit]

Every year I get ridiculously excited about Wire's "Rewind," which is their albums of the year feature. This year I'd only heard 12 of the 50 albums on the list, one of which I absolutely did not like. To me, that means there is a ton of interesting stuff to discover, and it's neat to read someone's thoughts on those albums I did get the chance to listen to.

Granted, I follow this stuff a little too closely, and games writers are often generalists, so there's not a lot to discover in the games space, however I still like reading stuff from good writers looking back on games I also experienced.

That's all this stuff is. Year-end lists aren't canon-defining or objective, and often the best games from this year won't be viewed as the best games of this year next year. It's just an opportunity to reflect and discover.

Click to shrink...

I haven't read The Wire in some years, used to enjoy the odd bundled CD of eg Polish Avant-Garde Chamber Music interpretations of Merzbow.

 

[Cocaloch]

There's nothing to talk about other than critiquing the choices.

 

[SheriffMcDuck]

If they're meant to be "great games you may have missed" lists then title them that(obviously more eloquently). All in all, "Best of 20XX" lists are incredibly uninteresting to me, as it's all opinion based and I don't really care to see a publication's list and order of games. I even think titling it as "Our Favorite Games of 20XX" would be so much better than the objective "Best of" list.

I'd be much more interested in an under the radar list. But again, if that's what you're making, tell us that. I don't think Paste was explicitly trying to make that kind of list, I just think that's where there interests lie. I don't agree with a lot of their placements/choices, but I don't find their opinion to be more or less valid than any one else's. It's honestly baffling to me why people care so much about them.