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TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,867
So I went and saw this film today and I did not enjoy it at all. I also felt there were some issues that didn't sit right with me.

I was reading some reviews afterwards and The Wrap was excellent, some bits below though it's better to read the whole review.

Women
"Pets 2's" descent into the bowels of what reads as conservative messaging begins as Katie (voiced by Ellie Kemper), Max's owner, randomly meets a young man, quickly marries and has a child. In this fictional universe, that's clearly the only natural progression of events in a woman's life. That trope is later reinforced through the pet characters.

Diversity
In case it wasn't obvious, "Pets 2" makes no attempt at diversifying the notion of what a family is today. No same-sex couples are in sight as pet owners, much less as parents. Nothing that deviates from the default straight married couple is even hinted at. Even Disney, in its insipid and unsatisfying manner, has already started the move toward mainstream inclusion of different kinds of families.

Toxic Masculinity/Mental Health
Making matters worse, Harrison Ford is cast as Rooster, a hyper-masculine shepherd dog brazenly teaching Max how to toughen up. Rooster shames Max for going to therapy and wearing a medical collar to prevent him from scratching himself out of stress. Ford's character essentially stigmatizes mental illness and dismisses treatment as a made-up sign of weakness.

Rooster is the embodiment of phrases like "Men don't cry," and " Rub some dirt on it." This alpha dog rejects vulnerability by preaching about how sissified city dogs are. The character is disturbing in his unapologetic validation of behavior society as a whole is trying to eradicate. He equates courage with arrogance and other outdated perceptions of manliness.

There's more, but I didn't want to quote too much of the article. Personally I also noticed that every human character was white including most of the background ones.

I don't think all these questionable things in the one film are ok. It's not a small film either, it's a billion dollar franchise.

 

OwensboroEsq

Member
Oct 25, 2017
594
The cure for the mental issues below.

Rooster forces the dog to almost kill himself and because by pure chance he doesn't die he's cured. It didn't really make sense in the movie.


Well, that's unexpected. I assumed the two characters were going to teach each other something, like the main character becoming more courageous but Rooster embracing therapy or something.
 

SpankyDoodle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,082
It's a cheap animated movie about humanized pets. What did you expect?
How long is it going to take for "it's an animated movie it's allowed to be shitty" bullshit to finally fucking die

Disney, Pixar, even Dreamworks have been making fantastic and emotional stories with talking animals for decades. Maybe people expect a good movie and not a story for kids about shitting on those with mental health issues in 2019.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
What? So because it wasn't intended to be high art it can just be chock full of shitty messaging to kids?

No but I didn't expect it to have any meaningful message to begin with.

It's not too much to expect better underlying messages in kids films.

And it has a listed budget of 80 million. As high as any other Illumination film.

A high amount of invested money does not mean it's also rich in quality, as movies like these proof.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,288
I saw it.

The message with Rooster seemed to take issue with Max being overprotective with Liam. In the end, being overprotective may end up being more harmful than anything.

It's not a bad message, but it's completely shat on by how he belittled Max's therapy and mental state. Illumination always manages to fuck up what could be a morsel of a good message.
 

roguesquirrel

The Fallen
Oct 29, 2017
5,494
The scene where Rooster just yanks off Maxs cone and declares him cured of therapy really stood out to me as a bizarrely thoughtless scene

Its even weirder that the max story has all of these bad attempts at morals when the other two parallel stories are basically stretched out looney tunes shorts.
 

Deleted member 41502

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 28, 2018
1,177
The rooster scenes annoyed me too. I kept waiting for some sort of generic "max learns to face his fears, rooster learns it's ok to have emotions" moment, but nope. Rooster was just perfect. We'd all just be better people if we lived on farms and had no contact with others.
 

Haribo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
979
I'm confused, are you saying that as a parent it's a good idea to be informed about the movies you take your kid to see? Informed by, for example, people posting impressions on social media about the content of the film for me to read?
I'm saying how does your daughter end up watching the movie and getting bad messages when most people said this movie was no good
Clearly you were being sarcastic and trying to avoid personal responsibility for what your daughter ends up seeing.
 

jim-jam bongs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
182
I'm saying how does your daughter end up watching the movie and getting bad messages when most people said this movie was no good
Clearly you were being sarcastic and trying to avoid personal responsibility for what your daughter ends up seeing.

Critics can pan a movie and kids will still love the look of it and want to see it, because they don't read or care about reviews. If my kid decides they want to see it, and reviewers haven't touched on the stuff the OP does, then I'm not going to say to her "no, you're only allowed to see movies which are certified fresh kiddo". On the other hand, if someone explains that it's not just a bad movie but one which has some problematic messaging with which I disagree, then I'm in a better position to discuss it.

Not sure why you're doubling down on attacking the existence of this thread, but I'm happy to continue explaining why I'm grateful for it if you're finding it particularly engaging or whatever.
 

Brinbe

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
59,099
Terana
that's crazy, i don't remember the 1st one beings so problematic like that. what the fuck happened lol
 

Kin5290

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,390
I don't really see a problem with the main character's owner getting married and starting a family. Looked the movie up on Wikipedia and apparently the change in the family is something Max has to get used to (as a dog). It's not un-PC to be straight and getting married and having children.

If Harrison Ford's character actually shames Max for going to therapy then that's pretty shitty, but then again that relies on The Wrap reviewer accurately characterizing things and that seems like a stretch already.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,102
Expecting in-depth social commentary from this movie is silly.
I think it's important to remember that the stories we tell our children during their formative years will be their early touch stones for dealing with important issues like acceptance. Movies like this, which are designed from the ground up to be told to children should be held to a high standard.
 

Goodstyle

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,661
The "Women" and "Diversity" issue applies to a hell of a lot more films than this one.

Let's say in Toy Story 4, if the little girl's parents aren't same-sex, and if Woody and Lil Bo Peep end up together... will anyone seriously make the same 2 criticisms as above for it? It'd be nice if more films had better diversity in story telling for women and characters, but if they don't have those things it doesn't really make for constructive assessment to say "It doesn't have these things, therefore it is a harmful piece of media."
 

Deleted member 19844

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,500
United States
The part about supposedly negative messaging about women because the owner gets married and has a kid feels like a huge reach, but the stuff about mental health, etc. sounds very dubious.
I agree on both counts. I don't think every particular individual movie needs to have representation across the board, so long as in general there are enough movies that do.
 

Xita

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
9,185
I thought the first was pretty bad so I'm not surprised to hear the second isn't good either (the reasons do surprise me though).
 

Zhukov

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
2,641
Women
"Pets 2's" descent into the bowels of what reads as conservative messaging begins as Katie (voiced by Ellie Kemper), Max's owner, randomly meets a young man, quickly marries and has a child. In this fictional universe, that's clearly the only natural progression of events in a woman's life. That trope is later reinforced through the pet characters.
Hahaha.

Getting married and having a kid. The horror. Only conservatives do that! It's practically Nazism.
 

excowboy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
692
Don't read the comments :(

Interesting heads up - my kids love the first one, and it actually does an OK job of delivering some positive ideas.

This one sounds a bit more problematic - the Rooster character in particular. This sort of thing can provide a good opportunity to talk to kids and get them to think critically about what they're seeing though.
 

adamsappel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,503
How is Harrison Ford's performance? Does he sleepwalk through it? Is it as flat as his narration of Blade Runner? I have a crackpot theory that Ford has a reading disability. Blade Runner was probably read off the page, and he's done a voice-over for an Indiana Jones special that was painful to listen to and had the same "I'm reading this for the first time and struggling with it" quality. Or maybe it's just his "narrator character" and when he doesn't give a shit, he doesn't give a shit. "Part, time," indeed.
 

Blade24070

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,029
I don't care that much about the straightness of it, I mean, I don't need LGBT reps in every movie. But the other bits about mental health... yikes!
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
the diversity criticism seems really over the top. I don't even remember if there were humans in the first one. I just remember the head banging poodle.
WRT the mental health thing; If overprotectiveness is what they are railing against, I guess that's ok? These are all charicatures, seems hard to make a definitive statement of stuff like this. I doubt mental health is portrayed with any subtlety. That seems more of a problem.
 

Antoo

Member
May 1, 2019
3,813
You expect too much from Illuminations. They can barely craft a functional story let alone having actual positive messages for kids.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
The first 2 are kinda eh, though I wish we had seen just a gay couple owning a dog or something, it was a very straight washed film when it could have easily had the slightest bit of inclusion.

The Rooster thing is something I actively loathed when watching the film. It was basically toxic masculinity in dog form and they were really trying to force a message here. Ultimately it just felt pointless and gross and made me really dislike any scene with him in it

If Harrison Ford's character actually shames Max for going to therapy then that's pretty shitty, but then again that relies on The Wrap reviewer accurately characterizing things and that seems like a stretch already.
He 100% does shame him for going to therapy.

How is Harrison Ford's performance? Does he sleepwalk through it? Is it as flat as his narration of Blade Runner? I have a crackpot theory that Ford has a reading disability. Blade Runner was probably read off the page, and he's done a voice-over for an Indiana Jones special that was painful to listen to and had the same "I'm reading this for the first time and struggling with it" quality. Or maybe it's just his "narrator character" and when he doesn't give a shit, he doesn't give a shit. "Part, time," indeed.
Its Harrison Ford playing Harrison Ford, he totally phones it in
 
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Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,428
The article addresses why being critical of movies like this is important:
Defenders may argue it's absurd to attribute such weight to an animated feature, but on the contrary, this is the content to which we should be paying the most attention. Family-friendly releases have the power to communicate nuggets of knowledge to young viewers, and when the information transmitted is this regressive, it's worth raising the alarm.
And it's 100% true. Do not hold back just because it seems harmless at first glance.
 

Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
5,077
The movie has a lot of its issues, but my main problems with it don't really overlap with some of the aspects in the OP.

1) Max's whole plot is based on the anxiety he gets when this kid enters his life - a kid that wasn't in the first film and that, by necessity, had to be willed into existence in this one. Neither Ellie Kemper nor her new husband are given anything to do in the film because they're not important in the film. There are whole stretches of the film where the pets are off doing their own thing and you can't help but wonder, "Where the hell are their owners?" It's not that Ellie Kemper is only defined by her motherhood, but rather that none of the human characters are defined by anything but what their role is in the plot: an old cat lady there is literally just there to drive a car, a circus owner is there to just be evil. Nothing has nuance.

2) The film shows very few other animal parents in the film. In fact, I can't thing of a single other one besides the main couple who, also, are hardly in the film. The film is 95% focused on the animals with the human characters (outside maybe the baby) not having any notable screen time. I don't even know what Ellie Kemper's new husband in this one does, and I think he has maybe like 1 line in the whole film. With the human characters making up so little screen time, it's hard for to personally hold this film any more accountable than other children's films when it comes to human representation.

3) The film does take a very simplistic approach when it comes to Rooster treating Max. While it's iffy for me to equate Max's affliction to that of mental illness, I think it's a fair argument to say that Rooster is very simplistic and reductive in trying to address Max's problem.

But honestly, the film is a piece of shit mostly because it's an unfunny, scattershot mess of dueling storylines and uninspired writing.

Late in the film, Snowball's owner dresses him in a pink princess attire, lipstick included, but just when we might think this is Kevin Hart's way of saying, "Look, I'm not that homophobic; my character is a tough guy but he can also embrace femininity," the bunny rips off the outfit and dons chains, baggy clothes and a hat to rap about how macho he actually is.

This isn't wholly true. At first he's donned in the dress and he looks surprised, but then actually embraces it. It's only a bit later that he trades it for baggy clothes because of the rap he does for the end credits. The pink dress (and Snowball unexpectedly loving the dress) was one joke, and the baggy clothing/rap is a separate joke. One isn't a rejection of the other.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
826
To me, it felt like they were talking about helicopter parenting and that it's best to not to automatically think the worst of new situations and allow children to grow (like going to school and climbing trees).