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OP
OP
Blade Wolf

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
I was near the beginning of a mission in Chapter 3 and the game wouldn't let me continue. I may be remembering wrong, but I seem to recall there wasn't any indication as to what the problem was. It turned out that the mission had stopped because I had hitched my horse to the wrong post...only a few feet away from the "correct" post, and that was enough outside of the mission parameters to stop everything. I had to mount my horse, ride it across to the next hitching post, hitch it, dismount, and mount again to continue the mission.

Somebody mentioned a time when they dismounted a few feet too early and they had to mount, ride forward and dismount again. I remember that happening to me too.

These little awkward moments add up. RDR2 is filled with them. They really broke down the immersion for me to the point that I lost interest in the game entirely. And I guess I don't see how that is any more cinematic than allowing emergent gameplay....even just a *little* emergent gameplay. It doesn't feel cinematic at all to have to shuffle your horse into exactly the right position for the next scripted event to kick in. Some people in this thread keep throwing the word cinematic around like that justifies this, but I think that is a flawed argument that ignores the choppy rhythm you end up with when the player has to guess exactly what they have to do to continue. The comparisons to an amusement park ride or haunted house are apt; that is what it feels like.

I would even take that argument one step further and say the game feels more cinematic out in the open world, when the gameplay is almost completely emergent, than it does when you're grasping your way through its awkward blocking instructions on the way to another shootout.

Couldn't agree more, there're so many rough moments in RDR2 that it honestly feels like skateboarding on a road construction.

Even the core control feels rough as hell and the rules are all over the place, like how the running is set to hold by default but once your gun is drawn suddenly it becomes toggle to run. It's not a ''problem'' but it certainly kills the enjoyment and immersion, most of the time I just don't feel like I'm synchronized with the control at all.

It's not like in Uncharted or Last of Us where I can control my character's movement speed and momentum perfectly so that I can run and then stop at the exact spot I want, while shooting an enemy in the head.

Playing RDR2 in free aim mode with zero aim assist (it's how I play all games) makes all the gameplay issues even more jarring. It honestly plays much worse than RDR1 on PS3 (same setting, free aim, no aim assist etc.)

I guess most people are happy as long as they killed all the enemies and continue the mission, but for me even when I win the fight I can't help but reflect on all the ''mistakes'' that just happened, and how it feels completely unfair and clunky.
 
Last edited:

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,702
That's why I always played GTA doing shit in the city instead of following missions.
 

CarthOhNoes

Someone is plagiarizing this post
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,181
Agreed with the OP. RDR 2's mission design is the same awful shit as the GTA games before it. R*'s open world design has far outpaced their ability to do creative things with it when telling a story.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Misquoted. ThreepQuest64, sorry about that.
The way they rated how well you did in missions with medals in RDR2 seemed so out of touch with the rest of the game's design trying to be more of a systems-driven open world simulation of old west life.


This issue itself has been around since GTAIII, as I remember trying to set up cars to block enemies in a mission and upon starting the mission, they all disappeared. They want you to do things the exact way they want it done and will try to block any outside thinking, which is why their games are better outside of missions.


You can still do that in GTA3.

The game has a memory limitation because of performance reasons. I think you can only put two cars at once and make it remember them.

I used to use the block the road usikg cars thing and it worked well. Especially after you start a mission but before you trigger a chase or objective.

Infact I would say GTA3 and Vice City are the most sandbox games in the series after the first two.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
It's not like in Uncharted or Last of Us where I can control my character's movement speed and momentum perfectly so that I can run and then stop at the exact spot I want, while shooting an enemy in the head.
I only recently played and finished The Lost Legacy and this is what I thought while playing it. It offers on par quality in terms of animations and transitions yet it plays 10 times better and still have a weighty feel to it. RDR2 didn't need to went full sluggish to simulate a realistic and authentic weight of controls.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
I'm not a big fan of Rockstar games out side of RDR, but I have no problem with this. Nor games like Uncharted, TLOU etc.

I'm not a fan of sandbox games in general and find that stories, a big draw of gaming for me, tend to be better in games with linear stories than games with player agency and multiple endings etc.

I just view them like long, interactive movies with gameplay I enjoy in between the key narrative bits.
 

Fawz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,670
Montreal
In an ideal world there would be more freedom, but it's not so much of a choice as it is a concession based on technical/financial/time limitations against a desire to maintain a certain amount of cinematic spectacle.

Personally I think they do a much better job than other games of giving you access to both types. You have the more linear design from story missions which is very scripted but also cinematically focused and immersive. Then you have the open world freedom and the gameplay mechanics they put at your disposition where you're more welcome to do what you want. When one interferes with the other, such as Story Missions being required to unlock new modes of play in the open world or you having grinded in the open world but then the story mission asks you to do it again, is when it breaks down and seems artificial.

In the end it's really not that hard to align your expectations with the game's limited segments and moments of freedom, but the jump back and forth can be too jarring for some.
 

Spacejaws

"This guy are sick" of the One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,869
Scotland
Personally, I'm ok because the missions are still fun to play. Taking down a Buffalo with Charles, getting drunk with Lenny and scheming in Rhodes saloon as idiot Fenton were all amazing experiences with some of the best dialogue and acting we've ever seen in a game which only helped envelope you in that world and it was one of my top gaming experiences of all time.

Not every game should have take any approach mission design. In fact that's only a recent change in Assassin's Creed. The latest one I played was Syndicate which was chock full of 'get back in the carriage' style missions. The difference was very little in that game was fun at all. The mission design, story and dialogue was weak as fuck.
 

rocket

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,306
I have failed a quest in ACO cause I didn't lie, and I am not talk about just a negative outcome; the game literally failed my quest.
 

Deleted member 40133

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2018
6,095
It's not so much the lack of player agency in th game as it is the dichotomy with the message. Theres tons of open world games that if you leave the area it resets/fails mission. The issue comes with them putting it as you ARE a cowboy. You are living in this time, you need to eat, bathe, take care of yourself, it effects your relationships etc.....and then if you don't a mission exactly as meant I failed. So what is it? A hyper realistic life simulator videogame? Or just a standard open world game. The issue is compounded with how far the extremes are. No other open world (to my knowledge) is as hyper realistic with its systems, but also punishing on the minuteau of how you NEED to accomplish certain tasks. It takes you out of the intended fantasy constantly. It's like accidently getting your earbuds torn out mod song, it's infuriating because you were deeply invested in something and then you're yanked out against your will
 

Matzpxl

Member
Jun 4, 2019
1,498
Brasília, Brazil
I'm pretty ok with this, actually. The open world and immersion are so on point and rich in detail that this design in story missions never bothered me. I mean, it sucks to get one hundred of "FAILED" screens in one mission, but I can live with it. Rockstar is an orthodox and inflexible studio, recycling the same structure for years, so it's no surprise RDR 2 has the same issues. I played and it really met my expectations and a little beyond.
 

Deleted member 56580

User requested account closure
Banned
May 8, 2019
1,881
Why are we ok with it ?

cuz everybody knows that R* are making movies with their games since GTA IV, you just follow the script. Expecting anything else is no bueno

I kinda miss Vice City R*, where you could do things in a more varied fashion as far as main missions were involved. Since then tho they improved so much on everything else that like, doing the perfect blend would truly be amazing to fathom

Tbh I think its the biggest reason I've ended up liking Watch Dogs 2 more than GTA V overall
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,848
I don't get why the can be a full toybox with lots of interacting systems that are awesome to see interact with each others but if you do missions it throws all these toys into the trash and you have to do what you're told or it's fail.
It seems entirely contrary to the design philosophy the game is trying to reach.
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
Can someone post videos of some egregious on-rails examples in RDR2? I never played the game but I'd love to see how bad it can get where failing a mission is possible from even a slight detraction.
 

LOLDSFAN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,037
As someone who really enjoyed BOTW, this thread is making me quite hesitant on picking up RDR2 once it hits PC. 😅
 

snausages

Member
Feb 12, 2018
10,384
Can someone post videos of some egregious on-rails examples in RDR2? I never played the game but I'd love to see how bad it can get where failing a mission is possible from even a slight detraction.
I dont know if this is "egregious", but it made me egregiously angry 🤬



When this happened I deliberately killed Arthur over and over to trigger the option to skip the section altogether

It's bad enough that the game feels like arse without it failing you for a condition you had no idea existed going in
 

Deaf Spacker

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,026
United Kingdom
I actually rage quit during one of the missions where you had to search for the zoo animals, I failed the mission because I took too long to find it - I wasn't even aware that the mission was timed.

It's a fantastic game but it's certainly flawed and one of the flaws is how much the game forbids the player from doing anything outside of the pre-determined box during a mission.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
Can someone post videos of some egregious on-rails examples in RDR2? I never played the game but I'd love to see how bad it can get where failing a mission is possible from even a slight detraction.
There was a ton of them but the first really stupid one for me was a mission where you go to town with a character to visit a store. I was walking around looking for where he went as I didn't know where he went and what store he went into (I forgot if the game shows him on the gps or not). Then the game told me "Arthur walked away from the objective" and I got a mission fail.

Like seriously? Why is the game in such a hurry to tell me to go there that much?
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
I dont know if this is "egregious", but it made me egregiously angry 🤬



When this happened I deliberately killed Arthur over and over to trigger the option to skip the section altogether

It's bad enough that the game feels like arse without it failing you for a condition you had no idea existed going in

Now that's annoying. I'd be upset with shit like that, too.

There was a ton of them but the first really stupid one for me was a mission where you go to town with a character to visit a store. I was walking around looking for where he went as I didn't know where he went and what store he went into (I forgot if the game shows him on the gps or not). Then the game told me "Arthur walked away from the objective" and I got a mission fail.

Like seriously? Why is the game in such a hurry to tell me to go there that much?
Yeah, I think that's pretty bad. I don't agree that's enjoyable.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
People are okay with it because everything else is pretty goddamn dope. But yeah I agree. It also pissed me off that there was so much to do and so much to see, but it only makes sense for Arthur to go off and do all those things during chapters 2 and 3.
 

Spacejaws

"This guy are sick" of the One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,869
Scotland
Yeah, I think that's pretty bad. I don't agree that's enjoyable.

To be fair you pretty much restart exactly where you left off back at town and the character wanders into the store or whatever. These fail states don't mean repeating whole missions usually it's less than a minute gametime you've lost and you have a better idea where you are supposed to go. The biggest problem here is load times.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,191
Man, all the "it's okay for games not to be for you" and "not everything is for everyone" takes. Some fragile people really can't fucking take criticisms of games they like, huh.

Anyways. Yeah, I'm with you, TC. I haven't played the game and I doubt I ever will, precisely for the reasons you have mentioned. It's even more frustrating considering that Rockstar have made games that gave players agency in how to complete missions; GTA III, Vice City and San Andreas were all like that, and it was awesome.
 

Deleted member 8468

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,109
I feel like at this point I've dumped on the game enough, but I completely agree OP.

It was also a huge talking point in the OT a year ago, so I think plenty of people noticed and weren't okay with it.
 

Ruisu

Banned
Aug 1, 2019
5,535
Brasil
The game's story missions have a set script they want you to follow and leave the "do whatever you want" to the free roam. What's wrong with that anyway, it's not so hard to just follow the mission the way the game wants you to, plenty of other games offer more freedom if you don't like it. This just reeks of the kind of take like "walking simulators are not real games".
 

Col.Asher

Member
Nov 10, 2017
259
Rockstar games are highly interactive visual novels at this point. It's what they do and they do it well.
 

closer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,177
Rockstar games do not purport to give the player agency outside of finding ways to violently kill ppl, i dont think theyve gone outside of this since i played the first gta on pc.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
The game's story missions have a set script they want you to follow and leave the "do whatever you want" to the free roam. What's wrong with that anyway, it's not so hard to just follow the mission the way the game wants you to, plenty of other games offer more freedom if you don't like it. This just reeks of the kind of take like "walking simulators are not real games".
The reason people are calling it out this much is because Rockstar used to be much better at this. Play GTA3 era games and comeback to Red Dead. I am pretty sure you will notice that they have their fair share of "scripted" missions but there is one key difference, the missions never failed you for "breaking" the mission. You almost never saw "Tommy walked away from the area" or "Claude abandoned Maria". You never failed for any of these things.

What they need to do is get rid of these idiotic mission fail triggers and let people play as they want even if they "destroy the experience", because for many people like me, seeing the mission fail trigger takes me out of the immersion more than if I did the mission in a weird way.
 
Dec 6, 2017
11,008
US
I'm not okay with it and think RDR2's missing design is some of the worst crap I've seen in any game in years. I can't wrap my head around what they were thinking with any of it. It more often than not felt more like "hit your mark, actor!" than actually playing a game to me.
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,316
Yeah I agree. And their gameplay also flies in the face of the narrative.

Like how do they explain that the O'Driscolls are a rival gang but also have hundreds, if not thousands of members. And they still keep comin.

Same thing happened in GTA where the main characters are expressing some regret or reluctance but then the missions are just mowing down hundreds of cops and agents. I think they need to take another look at their mission design and update it to keep pace with their really well written characters and stories.
 
Oct 29, 2017
7,502
Agree, I can't deal with the ultra strict fail states in Rockstar story missions. It's not fun, and it seems so opposed to the open world, go-anywhere do-anything nature of the games.

I'm all for a linear story, but not failing the mission for edging one toe out of line.
 

tryagainlater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,252
They spent more time coming up with ways for you to fail a mission than coming up with ways for you to complete it.

I do enjoy Red Dead 2 and I don't mind always colouring inside the lines, so to speak, but they really need to loosen up a little bit with their mission structure. They even replace your currently equipped guns sometimes because apparently that would ruin the experience of the story. I wonder if they could use the gold medal system to be the way of guiding you through the mission the way Rockstar want you to experience it and let people who don't care about that crap play the mission however you want. The gold medal requirements for drinking with Lenny mission felt like that since it was more about you experiencing the unique encounters in that mission instead of boring stuff like get 20 headshots.
 

SweetBellic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,427
People are so overwhelmingly okay with Rockstar's game design that their games are among the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed in the industry, so it's pretty myopic to even pose such a question. And I don't know how you can seriously suggest that Rockstar games don't support or respect player agency without cherry picking the story missions, which are but a fraction of the experiences the game has to offer. Even RDR2, which absolutely has the most scripted and restrictive main missions of any Rockstar game, boasts an unprecedented amount of systems in place purely for player expression. A silly example, but not only can you wake up in camp and have Arthur get or fix himself a cup of coffee, but you can walk around and talk to NPCs while enjoying said coffee, and can even control when he takes sips ffs. In dedicating resources to grant player control over such minutiae, Rockstar demonstrates a passion for player agency and interactivity that goes above and beyond, to say nothing of the myriad activities, events, and other sandbox elements that the player may opt to engage in or respond to at any point between story missions in the game world.

Of course, some players will rightfully feel that Rockstar's attention to detail and player expression is misplaced, and couldn't care less about controlling Arthur's coffee consumption and whatever other sim/roleplay systems RDR2 offers. I get that, and agree we should criticize the preponderance of fail states in RDR2's main story missions, which tested my patience on multiple occasions (let's hope GTA VI is more accommodating!). It doesn't stop the game from being a GOAT contender for me, but I respect that other players have other priorities and may not get as much out of these systems as I do. I do think Rockstar games work for so many players because they strike the right balance between player agency in the sandbox/game world and the "on the rails" gameplay in the decidedly more scripted, cinematic main missions, or at least strike a balance acceptable enough not to detract from the overall experience. That said, I think it's possible for the pendulum to swing too far in the other direction, where too much player agency in story missions might permit the player to commit acts that cause them to miss out on cool story beats and action sequences as a consequence, which is something I don't mind in a game like Fallout: New Vegas, but probably not something I'd want in a more narratively compelling Rockstar game.
 

MP!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,198
Las Vegas
This is my biggest gripe with the game... If I can't sneak up on some varmint and tackle him and hog tie him ... but instead, I am forced to chase him down some river forever cause that's what they want you to do... then I don't want it

The game felt at odds with itself
 

Matty H

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,107
Yes, Red Dead 2 mission design can be frustrating, but once you realise that you should just do the most obvious thing in story missions it's OK. Outside of story missions though, there is a lot of player agency. You can go anywhere at any time, do holdups, steal horses, go hunting, set things on fire.

I can understand the criticism by people who were expecting an immersive sim inside this epic story but I think Rockstar took a more structured approach just to be able to get the game finished in a polished state. Personally, I got onboard with the rigid mission design pretty quickly because games can come in many styles. I don't prescribe what a game should or must do in order to meet some arbitrary metric of "player agency".
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
It's done for story reasons. Rockstar games take the best of linear third person action games and combine it with the best open worlds in the industry.

You talk about tlou and uncharted in the op. But here's an example:
This sort of thing is impossible to do in RDR2, yet they can't have you wandering off during an important story mission, so they make it possible to fail if you wander too far or something similar.

Another example, that "killed too many buffalo" image is part of a main story quest where you are specifically dealing with characters that are poaching too many buffalo. You can't just kill all of them and have the npc that's with you ignore it or make a throwaway comment when he kills the poachers later in the mission.

Ubisoft games are actually the perfect example. The stories suck. Far Cry 5 is the perfect example of the sacrifices that need to be made in order to allow agency. The story is fragmented and quite poor.
 

bulletyen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,309
Each Rockstar game is an incredibly detailed and highly curated museum of a very specific time, place, and tale. You're welcome to soak it all in, wander around, watch some video presentations, and get close to the installations, maybe even poke things when nobody's is looking, but once you take on the story missions--aka the guided tour--never, ever, touch the exhibits or your guide will freak out, and never stray too far or you'll miss out on the experience.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
It's done for story reasons. Rockstar games take the best of linear third person action games and combine it with the best open worlds in the industry.

You talk about tlou and uncharted in the op. But here's an example:
This sort of thing is impossible to do in RDR2, yet they can't have you wandering off during an important story mission, so they make it possible to fail if you wander too far or something similar.

Another example, that "killed too many buffalo" image is part of a main story quest where you are specifically dealing with characters that are poaching too many buffalo. You can't just kill all of them and have the npc that's with you ignore it or make a throwaway comment when he kills the poachers later in the mission.

Ubisoft games are actually the perfect example. The stories suck. Far Cry 5 is the perfect example of the sacrifices that need to be made in order to allow agency. The story is fragmented and quite poor.
But this sort of issue was fixed in San Andreas for example.

Walk away from the characters or area and the game will tell you to return instead of failing you. Spook or kill an important target and the game will fail you.

Sometimes mission fails work fine but to have missions fail you just because you walked the wrong way? That is just failing you for the sake of failing you.
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,233
Tokyo, Japan
To be fair you pretty much restart exactly where you left off back at town and the character wanders into the store or whatever. These fail states don't mean repeating whole missions usually it's less than a minute gametime you've lost and you have a better idea where you are supposed to go. The biggest problem here is load times.
The load times certainly don't help, but I think the biggest problem is the failstate obsession, and the fact that every "fail" means "Game Over" = go back several steps.

Even if the loading was instant, and you were put right back outside the store, watching the NPC go in, what does that accomplish? It's still a weird little slap on the player's wrist, telling them not to "go off script" and to do everything perfectly according to the whims of all other characters and agents in the game.

The given example is a stupid thing to fail a player for. Just tell them to head back into town, or remind them where the NPC went. If your script is so important, nudge them gently in its direction; don't GAME OVER them every time they put a foot off course.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,497
Each Rockstar game is an incredibly detailed and highly curated museum of a very specific time, place, and tale. You're welcome to soak it all in, wander around, watch some video presentations, and get close to the installations, maybe even poke things when nobody's is looking, but once you take on the story missions--aka the guided tour--never, ever, touch the exhibits or your guide will freak out, and never stray too far or you'll miss out on the experience.

.