I don't think player agency is a thing in Rockstar games, why are we okay with this?

[Blade Wolf]

I was playing Assassin's Creed Origins yesterday, there's this mission where I have to escort a priest via the canal.

You were supposed to stay on the felucca (little boat) with the priest and use your bow and arrow to deal with enemies shooting arrows at you from other feluccas, but instead I choose to jump into the water, dive deep to avoid the arrows and then assault the enemy's boats from the other side using my melee weapons, but for some reason the priest's boat caught on fire and the priest was forced to jump into the water and now we have to find another boat instead, all while enemies are shooting arrow at us. The whole mission turned into chaos but I was able to improvise and get us through to the objective at the end. I had the urge to restart the mission but now that I think about it, it's really quite an unique, unforgettable experience.

I can't help but wonder, if this is a Rockstar game, I would've failed like 20 times already.

FAILED
You left the boat

FAILED
The priest was left behind

FAILED
The felucca was destroyed

The more I think about it the more angry I get.

Red Dead Redemption 2 is a pathetic game, it has no understanding of what video game truly means, it has no understanding of its core value and meaning.
It doesn't give a shit about player agency, interactivity and creativity.

Remember that bison hunting mission with Charles? Well you can't even hunt too much of them.

This is not about ''linear vs non-linear game design''
Naughty Dogs games are linear as fuck but at least they understand the meaning of player agency perfectly fine.
You can flank enemies in Uncharted anyway or any direction you like without having to worry about failing the mission.
Outside of death, there're very few ways to fail the objective in Uncharted and Last of Us, I honestly can't even remember any.

Red Dead Redemption 2's mission design isn't linear, it's pathetic.

I kept seeing people saying ''It's about the story and the characters! Not every game is about fun fun fun! You people are so shallow!''
Well The Last of Us and God of War have amazing story and characters as well and I don't see those games treating us like their fucking employees.

The ''on-rail stage play'' mission design of RDR2 does not in any way enhance its story.
The story and characters would have been just the same without it, don't believe me? Look at Red Dead Redemption 1.
Let me guess, you're gonna lie to yourself and tell me that RDR1 isn't all the great, but you know damn well the game is a masterpiece and its why we're all so hyped about 2 in the first place.

I won't say ''If it's not fun, why bother.'' cause I don't think fun is everything, but If it's about as fun as working in an office, what is the fucking point?

 

[Meg Cherry]

Other people like it, you don't.

There, does that settle the moral dilemma for you?

 

[ThisIsBlitz21]

I agree.

But where were you when the game came out? It was repeated to hell and back.

 

[sappyday]

It's their biggest design flaw for a fact. I love RDR1/2 but if they didn't do this then those games would probably my favorite ever!

 

[SinkFla]

Lol that's a bold statement not far in.

(I do agree with the agency thing though).

 

[teague]

Not all games need to be the same

 

[Deleted member 15447]

Same thing happened to me with the boat in AC.

Would be funny if it always happened that way to everyone playing.

I do agree with the points about RDR though. There was almost no freedom at times.

 

[leng jai]

Not this shit again.

 

[sredgrin]

Isn't this like a huge point of discussion re: the games, especially RDR2? I'd say a lot of people aren't okay with it.

 

[Kard8p3]

Games can be structured differently to fit the narrative.

Sorry you had a bad experience with RDR2.

That example you posted is pretty dumb though, tbh. Since at one point you and Charles goes and kills dudes for thoughtlessly killing bison. So...

 

[Van Bur3n]

You really missed the point of that Charles mission if you're upset you couldn't kill too many bison.

 

[LukasHeinzel]

Someone needs a hug.

 

[Cenauru]

Rockstar games do a lot of good things but the extremely strict linearity in any given objective is the absolute worst offender that keeps me from playing them more. I have no doubt GTA and Red Dead would be one of my favorite IP's if they actually gave you a goal and not an order for every objective, it's such a blight on their games that after GTA V, I'm not interested in RDR2 at all. It's a shame because they have amazing sandboxes when you're just goofing off and not following missions. The most fun I've had with Rockstar games is making my own fun with friends in GTA V online free roam, and the only reason I would get RDR2 is if it has that same free-roam-fun-with-friends factor that GTA V's online has.

 

[Border]

Other people like it, you don't.

Click to shrink...

Does anybody really like this style of mission design though? "Oh yeah, I really enjoy entering a fail state and having to restart every time I do something the designers didn't expect or didn't want me to do. I love how the freeform and systemic nature of the open-world totally conflicts and clashes with the strict rules of instanced missions."

I think it would be closer to say that some people tolerate these quirks, and others don't.

 

[Allan Holdsworth]

I like GTA but yeah, the missions aren't the best. I usually just cause random caos until I get my fill.

 

[dex3108]

Does anybody really like this style of mission design though? "Oh yeah, I really enjoy entering a fail state and having to restart every time I do something the designers didn't expect or didn't want me to do. I love how the freeform and systemic nature of the open-world totally conflicts and clashes with the strict rules of instanced missions."

I think it would be closer to say that some people tolerate these quirks, and others don't.

Click to shrink...

I personally like it. Yeah R* could give players bit more freedom for sure but I didn't have any issues with missions in RDR2 simply because I got tired playing games where you have all freedom in the world but you end up is situations that don't fit narrative.

 

[Blade Wolf]

I agree.

But where were you when the game came out? It was repeated to hell and back.

Click to shrink...

I was trying my best to enjoy it. Like some posters here said, not every game is the same.

Eventually, I came to realize that this kind of design isn't really a trait at all, it was really just a mistake. Something that should've been left in the PS3 era.

 

[squidyj]

Red Dead Redemption 2 is a pathetic game, it has no understanding of what video game truly means, it has no understanding of its core value and meaning.
It doesn't give a shit about player agency, interactivity and creativity.

Click to shrink...

What a load of the most rank horseshit. Where to even begin with this drek? Games don't have to be one thing, there isn't a singular ideal platonic form for video games. The idea that there is comes only from a position of willful ignorance. Games can be all sorts of different things that explore all sorts of different avenues of utilizing the medium.

 

[Meg Cherry]

Does anybody really like this style of mission design though? "Oh yeah, I really enjoy entering a fail state and having to restart every time I do something the designers didn't expect or didn't want me to do. I love how the freeform and systemic nature of the open-world totally conflicts and clashes with the strict rules of instanced missions."

I think it would be closer to say that some people tolerate these quirks, and others don't.

Click to shrink...

Considering I, and several million other people, played and enjoyed the entire game - I think it's quite fair to say most people don't have the same issues.

Personally, I always viewed the mission design as guided experiences through the open world. It very rarely stood out as a point of contention.

It does not seem that difficult to realize that other people have different options on this than you do.

 

[Blade Wolf]

You really missed the point of that Charles mission if you're upset you couldn't kill too many bison.

Click to shrink...

I get it, but instead of restarting player all over again they could've done so much like making Charles mad at you, probably even adding a few unique dialogue in later missions.

The problem is that they are so trigger happy with restarting player's progress.

 

[Border]

It wasn't the failstates that bothered me so much as it was the cheesy on-rails scripting.....in a car chase you'll never be able to catch up to someone, you can't ram their car off a bridge or into a wall. You're forced to drive to the pre-scripted mission endpoint, and then your target magically becomes vulnerable. They created a systemic open world, and then get salty when people use the systems to their advantage.

 

[Messofanego]

One of the main reasons I can't hang with Rockstar games. The contradiction of a systemic, open world with closed, ultra-linear mission structure is a shame.

 

[BrickArts295]

It didn't bothered me until "that" stealth mission. After that, I couldn't stop thinking about why R* even bothers with creating such a big map if they aren't going to use it to its full potential.
I guess it has to do with the online since I felt the same way about GTA V but now years later that very same map is pretty much overloaded with online content.

 

[Blade Wolf]

What a load of the most rank horseshit. Where to even begin with this drek? Games don't have to be one thing, there isn't a singular ideal platonic form for video games. The idea that there is comes only from a position of willful ignorance. Games can be all sorts of different things that explore all sorts of different avenues of utilizing the medium.

Click to shrink...

''Games don't have to be one thing''

Translation: ''Yes the game design is garbage but that's just how it is. Please let it be.''

 

[Supreme Leader Galahad]

Tbh this feels more like a case of being bad at the game. But i digress, RDR2 missions are more tightly designed because thats the way R* has been designing since GTA3 if im remembering right, it allows a better control of the story when it is as expansive and long as in R* games would be my guess. They have been making a few changes tho like the heist missions since GTAV. The thing is: player freedom comes more from open world activities in R* games while missions are more controlled.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Red Dead Redemption 2 is a pathetic game, it has no understanding of what video game truly means, it has no understanding of its core value and meaning.

Click to shrink...

Damn... and I thought the "Uncharted 4 isn't Uncharted" was going to be the most pretentious sounding thing to come out of this forum today but this borders on "If I wanted to watch a movie I would go to the cinema".

 

[Border]

Considering I, and several million other people, played and enjoyed the entire game - I think it's quite fair to say most people don't have the same issues.

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I'm not saying that nobody liked the game, just that I'm not sure anyone really prefers mission design that punishes creativity or unconventional thinking. If the game allowed you to do crazy or cheesy stuff in the missions, would that have made you like it less? Like if you want to play the game more passively and go with the flow, you could still do that.....I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that both styles could be supported to some extent. Maybe create some specific and designated mission types that require you to follow their scripting, but let people do as they please in some of the less consequential story missions.

 

[kiddtic]

I have to agree with OP. The juxtaposition of the extreme linearity of their main missions compared to the emergent gameplay of the open world design and side missions is so jarring and is what makes RDR2 slightly disappointing.

 

[thepenguin55]

I initially had written a big "takedown" (I put it in quotes because I hated writing that but didn't know how else to describe what I wrote. Lol) but I decided against that because what would that accomplish? A company that is too big to fail made a popular game that I hate. Nothing more than that.

 

[Deleted member 16876]

OP, this thing is due to the Houser brothers wanting to make a movie or a tv series by using the game itself.

Years ago you had some if these missions but you could "break them" and do it in your own way. San Andreas in particular had lots of breakable missions that were scripted but could be done in your own way without any fail states. This is IMO the best sacrifice if they want to script missions but still allow agency.


GTA4 was where things stqrted to suck but even that game allowed you enough agency compared to the overly restricted mess of a missions that started coming in GTA5.

 

[Darkonda]

I'm with OP. For a game that's sandbox Rockstar should have considered players' out of the box thinking for the missions.

There's a navy battle mission in Odyssey that I completed without taking any damage to my ship. I just swam out dolo killed everyone on five decks Black Sail's Charles Vane style and then I called the Adrestia to sink the ships. Awesome.

 

[Border]

But i digress, RDR2 missions are more tightly designed because thats the way R* has been designing since GTA3 if im remembering right, it allows a better control of the story when it is as expansive and long as in R* games would be my guess.

Click to shrink...

The PS2-era GTA games were far more loose with rules. You could orchestrate a traffic jam and then toss a grenade under a target's car and insta-win what was supposed to be a chase sequence. Nowadays that can't happen because your target will just barrel through traffic like a runaway freight train, and their car will be mostly invulnerable.

 

[saenima]

and I don't see those games treating us like their fucking employees.

Click to shrink...

Lol

I agree with you regarding Rockstar games. It's not even a new criticism. San Andreas got flack for it back in the day. They feel like theme park rides at times. Which is alright btw, just not really my thing only because the ride itself isn't all that interesting to begin with.

 

[Blade Wolf]

It wasn't the failstates that bothered me so much as it was the cheesy on-rails scripting.....in a car chase you'll never be able to catch up to someone, you can't ram their car off a bridge or into a wall. You're forced to drive to the pre-scripted mission endpoint, and then your target magically becomes vulnerable. They created a systemic open world, and then get salty when people use the systems to their advantage.

Click to shrink...

Yep, it's all just a stage play.

 

[Boy]

This wasn't always the case. I remember in Gta3 , vice city and san andreas you were able to accomplish missions in different ways. I guess they just started making the missions more linear to cater to the more casual players since they blew up big time in popularity.

 

[MillionIII]

If the game tell you to hunt a specific amount of bison and you fail to do so then that's your fault, honestly you can only fail those missions if you go out of your way to do so.

 

[Kaswa101]

Yeah I mostly agree with OP. The missions were way too restricted and got super repetitive.

 

[Deleted member 16876]

Tbh this feels more like a case of being bad at the game. But i digress, RDR2 missions are more tightly designed because thats the way R* has been designing since GTA3 if im remembering right, it allows a better control of the story when it is as expansive and long as in R* games would be my guess. They have been making a few changes tho like the heist missions since GTAV. The thing is: player freedom comes more from open world activities in R* games while missions are more controlled.

Click to shrink...

No man that isn't how it was back then. GTA3 in particular had none of these failstates about Claude going away from the mission area or CJ leaving big smoke to chase the train and kill them himself.

You never used to fail just for doing something differently as long as you complete the mission. No matter how stupid it was. As long as your partners don't die or the target escapes.

GTA3 in particular was one of the most open games in terms of missions. You could do a lot of missions your way.

 

[Border]

I remember there was a chase sequence early-on in GTA4 where your target's car swerves in front of a 16-wheeler truck hauling lumber, and the truck jackknifes and sends giant timber logs sprawling across the highway and you have to narrowly avoid them.

I thought that was just such a cool random occurence that I posted about it on the previous forum and everybody was like, "Yeah, that happens every single time you play the mission." That was the first time I felt the illusion really got broken.

 

[JCHandsom]

You really missed the point of that Charles mission if you're upset you couldn't kill too many bison.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, and following on the point this quote introduces, I think dismissing "stage play" game design as a rejection of player agency is not properly considering that a player's agency is only one form of design intent and player/avatar relationship. That is to say, for 95% of RDR1 and 2 I was playing the role of John/Arthur; I wasn't telling Arthur what to do the same way that, say, I would "tell" Mario where to jump and what collectibles to go after, and I wasn't myself, in the world of RDR, who was Arthur/John in name only, the way I would be in Mass Effect, I was consciously trying to understand and act like Arthur would act in any given situation. I approach a lot of games from this perspective, trying to play in a way that matches the kind of person that character is, so it didn't bother me as much when I hit a failure state, I just needed to do another "take." I suppose you could coin it as "method gaming."

Granted the issue of having a good/bad Arthur path does muddle things, considering having a choice in what kind of person Arthur is does lean towards player agency in a potentially, frustratingly tantalizing way, but outside of that initial good/bad choice I was happy to play the role of a morally conflicted cowboy with a heart of gold.

Does anybody really like this style of mission design though? "Oh yeah, I really enjoy entering a fail state and having to restart every time I do something the designers didn't expect or didn't want me to do. I love how the freeform and systemic nature of the open-world totally conflicts and clashes with the strict rules of instanced missions."

I think it would be closer to say that some people tolerate these quirks, and others don't.

Click to shrink...

To go along with what I said above I do this on my own all the time, like oftentimes I'll reset an encounter on my own over and over until I'm satisfied with my performance in the level/encounter. I absolutely HATE barely scraping through an encounter or succeeding after fumbling over myself over and over haha

 

[Deleted member 16876]

I'm with OP. For a game that's sandbox Rockstar should have considered players' out of the box thinking for the missions.

There's a navy battle mission in Odyssey that I completed without taking any damage to my ship. I just swam out dolo killed everyone on five decks Black Sail's Charles Vane style and then I called the Adrestia to sink the ships. Awesome.

Click to shrink...

That's awesone haha.

Makes me want another Black Flag with the same formula as Odyssey. I would role play Charles Vane so hard!

 

[c0Zm1c]

I also really hate forced fail states in open world sandbox games, it's both contradicting and annoying, but framing it in this way (targeting RDR2) is sadly just going to make any discussion about it difficult. A better approach would have been to just champion what games like AC: Origins do well and leave it at that.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

It's not only that the RDR2 mission design feels strangely archaic, but what gives the huge amount of accidental fun in GTA is absent.

 

[FatherEarth]

I feel that I've had lots of freedom in RDR2. There have been missions where I've been sent to handle a situation. The assumption most would have is to talk, see how the conversation goes, and try to resolve the problem. I've accidentally killed people instead and the game even gives dialog for that case, something almost no game does.

The missions in RDR2 are designed to be pretty easy to follow for accessibility, so that anyone can play. The missions are also designed with certain story goals and are pretty simple. I haven't encountered any mission where I deviated from the goals and felt like like I had no freedom.

More examples would be helpful. As well as, for fairness, examples from Assassin's Creed, and other games, that possibly contradict your point.

 

[Darkonda]

That's awesone haha.

Makes me want another Black Flag with the same formula as Odyssey. I would role play Charles Vane so hard!

Click to shrink...

You might able to do that for Ubisoft's Skull and Bones game. There's rumor that went back into the oven to add in stuff like that.

 

[Firefly]

What a load of the most rank horseshit. Where to even begin with this drek? Games don't have to be one thing, there isn't a singular ideal platonic form for video games. The idea that there is comes only from a position of willful ignorance. Games can be all sorts of different things that explore all sorts of different avenues of utilizing the medium.

Click to shrink...

"There are no bad games, just the ones you don't like".

 

[Deleted member 16876]

You might able to do that for Ubisoft's Skull and Bones game. There's rumor that went back into the oven to add in stuff like that.

Click to shrink...

That would be even better.

I always felt a pure pirates Black Flag would be the best. No need to focus on the assassins, instead go full pirates.

 

[giapel]

As always, the tone of the OP set people on the defensive leading to hilariously bad arguments. Not all games have to be the same? Really? It's not a stretch to expect that an open world game should have open dynamic missions. Beyond that, it doesn't make Rockstar games bad as such but they're not the best they could have been. I think too much is lost in trying to capture the cinematic feel.

 

[Lukemia SL]

Yeah it's like an open closed game, prebuilt lego vs a box lego some youtuber said.

 

[matrix-cat]

Rockstar only started doing this 100% locked down, rigidly-scripted mission design with GTA IV. The PS2 GTA games offered a wonderful level of freedom in how you completed the missions. They had scripted ones, to be sure, but plenty of the missions simply gave you an objective and left the method entirely up to you. Killing the Mafia Don in GTA 3, for example: the game tells you that he's going to leave his club and be driven back to his mansion on the other side of the city, and your only objective is to kill him. You can wait on a rooftop with a sniper rifle, create a traffic jam, go in guns blazing, get into a car chase; hell I'm pretty sure you could actually steal his car, have a bomb installed in it, then drive it back before he notices.

Then GTA IV came around and mission design took a nose dive. Everything was just a shootout in a warehouse, or an entirely scripted car chase where the guy you're chasing is literally invincible and uncatchable until you dodge all the garbage trucks reversing out of alleys and sudden traffic jams. GTA IV's car chases only end when the AI driver actually slows down and allows you to catch him.

And RDR2 is a game where you basically have to stare at the white text at the bottom of the screen at all times, because any deviation from the steps laid out for you leads to an instant game over. I literally failed the final mission of the final epilogue because I didn't do exactly what the game wanted me to. Usually you expect a certain amount of handholding before the game sets you loose, but RDR2 never sets you loose; it's like a 60 hour tutorial.