I Don't Think I Quite Understand Sonic the Hedgehog Anymore...

[IsaOfTheWorlds]

I remember just loving Sonic the Hedgehog as a kid. I got Sonic Colors on the DS for Christmas one year, not long after I found and rocked Sonic Rush and Sonic Rush Adventurers, and I remembered that after that I just wanted to play every single last Sonic game to exist and do that, I did. After that, I kinda just left the series when nothing much else came out for a long while.

Well, I went to see the movie with my baby siblings, diehard Sonic fans the lot of'em, which was a surprisingly and immensely pleasant experience. I suddenly became nostalgic for the Blue Blur's games, and tried Sonic Advance, Sonic Rush, the Genesis Trilogy, everything I could... and suddenly I realized I just wasn't having fun with any of them anymore. I understand the game's are meant to be open-ended, encouraging the player to make the decision between going fast or exploring, but it seems like these inherently incompatible concepts make it impossible to have fun going fast in a Sonic game. The levels are unintuitive and only encourage trial and error because if you try to go fast it'll just be a staccato repetition of picking up speed, going fast and running into an obstacle you never could see coming.

Frankly put, the levels weren't interesting enough despite being open-ended to make me want to explore, and the levels were so messy going fast was impossible.

Is there something I'm missing that I had as a child that'll let me enjoy Sonic the Hedgehog games again? I'm nostalgic as Hell and I'd hate to revisit this series I love and find that I hate it now.

 

[Ferrs]

The levels are unintuitive and only encourage trial and error because if you try to go fast it'll just be a staccato repetition of picking up speed, going fast and running into an obstacle you never could see coming.

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That's the problem. Sonic games aren't meant to be able to "gotta go fast" until you get the hang out of the levels.

If you find the levels uninteresting then I dunno. Replayability is key in Sonic games due to how the level design is made, where there's a ton of aditional routes you will only see once exploring the stages.

 

[Cokie Bear]

Pretty much every game is trial and error if you boil it down. You're not supposed to be flying through the levels on your first attempt.

 

[SMD]

.

 

[Jimnymebob]

2 is probably the best one to play out of the classic style games. 1 is really slow paced, CD is more about exploration than going fast, and 3&K and Mania kinda require you to know the game before you can start going fast.

You can go fast on 2, but there are fewer 'dead ends that you can't really react to on a first playthrough' like 3 especially has.

 

[Famassu]

Glad that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. The levels are too dependent on memorization, to the point that just casually playing through them isn't all that fun.

Sonic Colours is great, though. The only Sonic game I've ever really gotten into.

 

[IsaOfTheWorlds]

Pretty much every game is trial and error if you boil it down. You're not supposed to be flying through the levels on your first attempt.

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Not true. One of the basic tenets of video game design is making challenges intuitive so that you can see and read the challenges ahead of time. That's kind of what makes game challenges hard, but also fair and fun -- intuitiveness and transparency.

That's the problem. Sonic games aren't meant to be able to "gotta go fast" until you get the hang out of the levels.

If you find the levels uninteresting then I dunno. Replayability is key in Sonic games due to how the level design is made, where there's a ton of aditional routes you will only see once exploring the stages.

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What I said above, I guess. Seems kinda terrible to make it be 100% trial and error and not at all intuitive or transparent because, again, one of the basic tenets of designing engaging video game stages is full readability.

All the Sonic games are average to awful except the 8/16 bit originals, Sonic Generations and Sonic Mania. People find it hard to accept because they grew up with them but they're either badly designed or badly programmed.

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Sonic Colors DS I stand by as the best Sonic game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[capitalCORN]

Sonic was the original 'walking simlator'.

 

[PlayBee]

I've never been crazy about Sonic games, even the ones people consider good. I want to have fun the first time, not after I've memorized the levels.

 

[Anchelepizze]

A) stop capitalizing every word in the title
B) I'd give em a shot on a better console, maybe in better form (Sonic 2 on mobile, 1 on Switch etc)
C) you've probably grown. Do you still enjoy 2d platformers?
D) people need to stop saying both "it's just press right to win!" and "man I can't rush through these levels wtf sonic is speed!"

 

[Aztorian]

Sonic is only here for nostalgic reasons. The only succesful Sonic game in years is Mania, which is basically a classic nostalgic Sonic game. Team Sonic Racing was alright, but it also proved that Sonic isn't here to evolve or bring anything new to the table.

 

[Cokie Bear]

Not true. One of the basic tenets of video game design is making challenges intuitive so that you can see and read the challenges ahead of time. That's kind of what makes game challenges hard, but also fair and fun -- intuitiveness and transparency.

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This is laughably not true. Point me to a game that doesn't have some element of unpredictability or randomness in its challenge. Most, if not all games, present challenges that you wouldn't have been able to predict.

How many bosses have you fought that evolved or moved to a new stage part way through. How many traps or pits have you fell into because you didn't know they there. How many times have you died to an unlucky dice roll in an RPG. Stuff like this is baked into every game, there's nothing transparent about them.

Every single game has an element of trial and error to it. I'm not sure anyone could name one that doesn't.

 

[spool]

Classic Sonic is about physics and momentum, and about having appropriate speed for where you are at the moment. If you keep dying in pits because you're going too fast, it doesn't mean that you should memorize the pit so that you can react quickly enough to jump over it next time, it means you're going too fast. Speedrunning isn't the end goal to strive for, unless that's something you personally want to do.

 

[Kaguya]

Sonic is just too deep for you OP, let it go.

 

[Deleted member 18379]

I stand by the opinion that there are no good Sonic games. Only nostalgia. The reason people don't love all the new Sonic games isn't because the series got worse, it's because the fans grew up. At the end of the day, Sonic is nothing but a corporate created mascot designed to compete with Mario, a mascot who became a mascot on the merit of the games rather than being shoved down everyone's throats, which is exactly what they did with Sonic.

The idea that you are not supposed to go fast in a Sonic game is basically an admission that the controls, design and promotion of Sonic material are all based on lies. No, you are supposed to go fast, the games just suck. It would be like playing a Megaman game and taking damage from shooting your buster shot and then the defense force would say, "oh well shooting enemies isn't really the point". Whatever.

 

[Duffking]

What I said above, I guess. Seems kinda terrible to make it be 100% trial and error and not at all intuitive or transparent because, again, one of the basic tenets of designing engaging video game stages is full readability.

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That's not what the post above you was saying though. Just don't try and bomb through it at insane speed until you know the layout. You wouldn't try speedrunning a Mario game on your first run through after all.

 

[DAHGAMING]

I loved Sonic 1,2,3 as a kid, then Sonic Adventure I loved when I got my Dreamcast. Not that I have played them all but a few I have played just felt empty and dead.

 

[Semfry]

I stand by the opinion that there are no good Sonic games. Only nostalgia. The reason people don't love all the new Sonic games isn't because the series got worse, it's because the fans grew up. At the end of the day, Sonic is nothing but a corporate created mascot designed to compete with Mario, a mascot who became a mascot on the merit of the games rather than being shoved down everyone's throats, which is exactly what they did with Sonic.

The idea that you are not supposed to go fast in a Sonic game is basically an admission that the controls, design and promotion of Sonic material are all based on lies. No, you are supposed to go fast, the games just suck. It would be like playing a Megaman game and taking damage from shooting your buster shot and then the defense force would say, "oh well shooting enemies isn't really the point". Whatever.

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This is some brain worms shit when Mania was loved (including by people new to the series) and only came out a short time ago.

 

[Rookhelm]

OP banned? Mods must be huge Sonic fans

 

[Annabel]

I see it didnt take long for the "Sonic was never good" false narrative to crop up again.

 

[Camjo-Z]

I understand the game's are meant to be open-ended, encouraging the player to make the decision between going fast or exploring, but it seems like these inherently incompatible concepts make it impossible to have fun going fast in a Sonic game. The levels are unintuitive and only encourage trial and error because if you try to go fast it'll just be a staccato repetition of picking up speed, going fast and running into an obstacle you never could see coming.

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First off, let me just say that I appreciate that this thread comes from a place of actually trying to understand the games rather than the typical inflammatory "actually these always sucked and here's why" that usually starts off these discussions.

I think a major thing that people who dislike Sonic don't understand is that the games (most of the classic 2D styled ones, anyway) are not really about exploration. It's not like Mario where you're finding hidden exits and collectibles, there's no big incentive for looking around the levels. You'll find rings and monitors that contain powerups, but neither of them are that important. Some games even have hidden entrances to special stages to find, but that's still not something you're expected to achieve on your first playthrough anyway.

As a result, you don't have to worry if you miss an upper route or see a monitor you can't reach. Your main goal is just to get through the stage. Generally this is where people then make the "well I wanna go fast, but then I slam into something!" claim, and I always wish I could watch their gameplay as they do this because I truly don't know how they come to this conclusion. Sonic has exactly one ability besides jumping, and that's turning into a ball. This protects him from almost every obstacle that doesn't poke or crush him. If you are going fast and you press down to roll into a ball, the chances of you "running into an obstacle you never could see coming" reaches almost zero.

HOWEVER - there are sometimes spots where you are not meant to go fast! These are generally denoted by large gaps between platforms or bottomless pits. In these scenarios, clearly going fast is not a good idea, as you will have less control and thus might fall. If you come across this situation... just take it slow! It won't be long before you get to go fast again.

Lastly, it's important to understand that speed is a reward in these games. You're not going to be a building master in Fortnite the first time you play it, you're not going to know every crafting recipe the first time you load up Minecraft, you're not going to understand all the type advantages in Pokemon in your first battle. These are things you pick up as you play. Similarly, when you first play Sonic, you're not going to blaze through the levels at light speed screaming "GOTTA GO FAST!!". Sure, there will be loops and hills where you can go fast for a little bit, but sustained speed is something you earn as you get better and start to understand how the flow of a Sonic level works. There's a reason people are still heralding these games as some of the best platformers ever.

The idea that you are not supposed to go fast in a Sonic game is basically an admission that the controls, design and promotion of Sonic material are all based on lies. No, you are supposed to go fast, the games just suck. It would be like playing a Megaman game and taking damage from shooting your buster shot and then the defense force would say, "oh well shooting enemies isn't really the point". Whatever.

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Literally no one says you're not supposed to go fast in Sonic games. What they say is that you're not supposed to go fast ALL THE TIME unless you're extremely good at it. Do you play a Mario game and constantly jump all the time even when it would get you killed? What is it about Sonic that makes people think you're meant to only hold right to GO FAST NONSTOP and never use your brain like you would in any other platformer?

 

[Ferrs]

I stand by the opinion that there are no good Sonic games. Only nostalgia. The reason people don't love all the new Sonic games isn't because the series got worse, it's because the fans grew up. At the end of the day, Sonic is nothing but a corporate created mascot designed to compete with Mario, a mascot who became a mascot on the merit of the games rather than being shoved down everyone's throats, which is exactly what they did with Sonic.

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The idea that Sonic became a gaming icon comparable to Mario only for this reason and not for the quality of its games is so laughable that I don't even know what to say. Ok, I guess?

 

[Bobinator]

I'm honestly never going to understand people who complain about "stuff coming up" getting in their way. I mean, I'm sorry, I literally can't visualize why this is a problem. It's an action platformer. Reflexes are required. Ain't the game's fault.

 

[poofynamanama2]

Getting banned for piracy? LMAO

 

[Semfry]

I see it didnt take long for the "Sonic was never good" false narrative to crop up again.

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I mean even the gaming media has given up fabricating this narrative for clickbait since Mania came out lol.

 

[Gold Arsene]

I stand by the opinion that there are no good Sonic games. Only nostalgia. The reason people don't love all the new Sonic games isn't because the series got worse, it's because the fans grew up. At the end of the day, Sonic is nothing but a corporate created mascot designed to compete with Mario, a mascot who became a mascot on the merit of the games rather than being shoved down everyone's throats, which is exactly what they did with Sonic.

The idea that you are not supposed to go fast in a Sonic game is basically an admission that the controls, design and promotion of Sonic material are all based on lies. No, you are supposed to go fast, the games just suck. It would be like playing a Megaman game and taking damage from shooting your buster shot and then the defense force would say, "oh well shooting enemies isn't really the point". Whatever.

Click to shrink...

 

[Mendrox]

Sonic killed the OP. I still love the older games though and never liked the newer ones (starting with 3D). Depends on the game being good or not, but a few years ago I had a blast with Sonic 1-3

 

[JigglesBunny]

I don't remember the Sonic game where he was a pirate? Was that one of the Sonic Storybook games?

Really though, yeah, I would argue that Sonic didn't actually use his speed properly until the boost games and then, of course, those games largely aren't great aside from two or three notable exceptions.

I've showed my younger cousins the original Sonic games and had to assure them that they didn't suck when Sonic wasn't barreling through the levels in a minute flat but that bumping into shit, having the flow interrupted and having to spin-dash to regain momentum was par for the course.

 

[Iori Fuyusaka]

OP banned? Mods must be huge Sonic fans

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Getting banned for piracy? LMAO

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Nice to see it's not tolerated.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I suddenly became nostalgic for the Blue Blur's games, jumped on my jailbroken 3DS and tried Sonic Advance, Sonic Rush, the Genesis Trilogy,

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it would have been so easy to have just said you played the other games after seeing the movie without specifying how lol

 

[andymcc]

I stand by the opinion that there are no good Sonic games. Only nostalgia. The reason people don't love all the new Sonic games isn't because the series got worse, it's because the fans grew up. At the end of the day, Sonic is nothing but a corporate created mascot designed to compete with Mario, a mascot who became a mascot on the merit of the games rather than being shoved down everyone's throats, which is exactly what they did with Sonic.

The idea that you are not supposed to go fast in a Sonic game is basically an admission that the controls, design and promotion of Sonic material are all based on lies. No, you are supposed to go fast, the games just suck. It would be like playing a Megaman game and taking damage from shooting your buster shot and then the defense force would say, "oh well shooting enemies isn't really the point". Whatever.

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the race to push this "sonic was never good" narrative has you fools tripping over yourselves before you hit the finish line.

gotta go fast.

 

[kai3345]

did op just admit to a crime!?

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

The idea that you are not supposed to go fast in a Sonic game is basically an admission that the controls, design and promotion of Sonic material are all based on lies.

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This is wrong. You're mistaking the idea of a skill ceiling with something being impossible or unfeasible.

In order to "go fast", you have to put in effort to learn, which necessitates going slower first.

Your Megaman example is more like saying you should be able to clear Megaman games on your first try without taking a single hit from the robot masters. No, that's the endgame and requires a ton of practice (because these games originated at a time when you would expect the players to repeat playthroughs).

 

[Deleted member 862]

Seriously have a word with yourself if you think that's a ban.

 

[Deleted member 48434]

I feel like I am stepping on eggshells here, but was that really an admission of piracy for OP?
It's kind of comparable to saying all emulation is piracy, and emulation is allowed to be discussed here, no?

 

[msdstc]

I stand by the opinion that there are no good Sonic games. Only nostalgia. The reason people don't love all the new Sonic games isn't because the series got worse, it's because the fans grew up. At the end of the day, Sonic is nothing but a corporate created mascot designed to compete with Mario, a mascot who became a mascot on the merit of the games rather than being shoved down everyone's throats, which is exactly what they did with Sonic.

The idea that you are not supposed to go fast in a Sonic game is basically an admission that the controls, design and promotion of Sonic material are all based on lies. No, you are supposed to go fast, the games just suck. It would be like playing a Megaman game and taking damage from shooting your buster shot and then the defense force would say, "oh well shooting enemies isn't really the point". Whatever.

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lmao this is one of the single worst takes I've ever seen. "I DONT LIKE THIS SO EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG OR BLINDED". What a horrendous post. The games are great. Sonic mania reviewed really fuckin good and performed really well. Do you think people are just playing to feel nostalgic? To look cool? I don't understand your logic at all, this post is hilariously bad.

 

[Virtua King]

Don't care if OP is banned, but for everyone that "doesn't get it," Sonic is played like an arcade game since it comes from an arcade company. In other words, your first run is about getting a feel, and then subsequent runs are focused on performance (flow, speed and, score). It's what makes Sonic different from other platformers, with only other Yuji Naka, IP's like NiGHTS and Rodea, providing similar experiences.

 

[WrenchNinja]

I really am stepping on eggshells here, but was that truly an admission of piracy for OP?
It's kind of comparable to saying all emulation is piracy, and emulation is allowed to be discussed here, no?

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he admitted what games he did have on the DS and then said he said "tried" the other ones on the his jailbroken 3ds

dont have to be phoenix wright to figure this out

 

[Deleted member 33533]

Literally no one says you're not supposed to go fast in Sonic games. What they say is that you're not supposed to go fast ALL THE TIME unless you're extremely good at it. Do you play a Mario game and constantly jump all the time even when it would get you killed? What is it about Sonic that makes people think you're meant to only hold right to GO FAST NONSTOP and never use your brain like you would in any other platformer?

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People just want to regurgitate the "Sonic was never good" meme. They don't quite care how they get there.

 

[Iori Fuyusaka]

Never mind.

 

[Solid SOAP]

I stand by the opinion that there are no good Sonic games. Only nostalgia. The reason people don't love all the new Sonic games isn't because the series got worse, it's because the fans grew up. At the end of the day, Sonic is nothing but a corporate created mascot designed to compete with Mario, a mascot who became a mascot on the merit of the games rather than being shoved down everyone's throats, which is exactly what they did with Sonic.

The idea that you are not supposed to go fast in a Sonic game is basically an admission that the controls, design and promotion of Sonic material are all based on lies. No, you are supposed to go fast, the games just suck. It would be like playing a Megaman game and taking damage from shooting your buster shot and then the defense force would say, "oh well shooting enemies isn't really the point". Whatever.

Click to shrink...

Yep, you cracked it, bruh. The fun experiences both kids and adults had upon the success of the original games was a lie, they were never good to begin with.

 

[andymcc]

Don't care if OP is banned, but for everyone that "doesn't get it," Sonic is played like an arcade game since it comes from an arcade company. In other words, your first run is about getting a feel, and then subsequent runs are focused on performance (flow, speed and, score). It's what makes Sonic different from other platformers, with only other Yuji Naka, IP's like NiGHTS and Rodea, providing similar experiences.

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ScOrE iS a ReLiC

 

[Deleted member 48434]

he admitted what games he did have on the DS and then said he said "tried" the other ones on the his jailbroken 3ds

dont have to be phoenix wright to figure this out

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It's a really complex thing to discuss here.
I'd say OP has the benefit of the doubt, at least. He was foolish to bring up playing on the jailbroken 3DS, but it is entirely possible that they were legally ripped.
If this is a ban, then any mention of using emulation would warrant a ban.

 

[Gold Arsene]

Seriously have a word with yourself if you think that's a ban.

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Why shouldn't it be?

 

[Deleted member 17210]

"Sonic was never good" is either fanboy trolling disguised as non-bannable opinion or just incredibly bad taste. And if love for the 16-bit games was just nostalgia, why were they so highly acclaimed to begin with? There's no nostalgia on day one.

 

[Gold Arsene]

It's a really complex thing to discuss here.
I'd say OP has the benefit of the doubt, at least. He was foolish to bring up playing on the jailbroken 3DS, but it is entirely possible that they were legally ripped.

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Fully admit I'm out of my element here but how do you legally rip something?

 

[Undeniablybiased]

I definitely don't understand the appeal. With the older games I never really liked them but I could at least see the appeal. But beyond those, I really don't understand. Someone the other day posted about an "impressive" fan game and it was one of the most boring things I've ever seen. The only sonic thing I've seen that I found genuinely interesting is utopia, but then there's also a bunch of people talking about how that's actually bad for reasons I can't comprehend, so.... shrug?

 

[Deleted member 48434]

Fully admit I'm out of my element here but how do you legally rip something?

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I think you can buy PC peripherals that take the game data off the cart or disk.
I'm not well versed myself, I don't emulate.
Truth be told, the hardware is apparently not easy to get. It's not illegal, just uncommon.
Jailbreaking modern consoles is aparently a way to dump modern games, too.

 

[ShinobiBk]

The best part of the thread is op getting banned for that complete throwaway line about the jailbroken 3DS lmao.

 

[andymcc]

"Sonic was never good" is either fanboy trolling disguised as non-bannable opinion or just incredibly bad taste. And if love for the 16-bit games was just nostalgia, why were they so highly acclaimed to begin with? There's no nostalgia on day one.

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our stupid brains were easily duped by the shiny pretty graphics