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Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
Nor Iron Man, Green Arrow (Denny O'Neil was smart to strip him of his fortune), multi-billionaire superheroes, etc.

I've liked Batman pretty much all my life. I used to find the tale of a rich man devoting pretty much of all himself to others of all kinds an inspirational one and still do to an extent. However, in modern stories he and similar characters are almost always depicted with what must be an insane amount of wealth to acquire and produce the scifi hardware they do.

Now you might know where I'm going with this but basically I'm on team #BillionaresShouldNotExist #comrade and therefore... Batman shouldn't exist. Or exist anymore. Or maybe shouldn't exist anymore as he does in the modern context. I don't believe this is a very original thought but I was booed and called a wet blanket by my friends for bringing this up and somebody else out there is probably looking at this right now and thinking this is some hyper-woke ResetEra shit, and that's fine... but what I'm trying to say is I sometimes retreat to the internet in hopes of answers/validation/evidence-I'm-not-crazy when reality fails, as many do. So how high is this on the woke-o-meter? It's kind of on the lower end, right?

In 2019 when wealth disparity is so extreme and things are kind of crazy and scary and the digital world makes it feel more and more so I'm just wondering how many people feel similarly. And then there's the film, forum hot topic, and perhaps cultural phenomenon Joker, which I haven't seen yet but as I understand it has a narrative with distaste if not scorn for the one-percent.

I'm not much of a capes comic reader anymore but these days I'm finding characters like a (non-Stark tech sponsored) Spider-Man and Superman more appealing. I'm finding Clark Kent really appealing actually. With what he has I'm certain the first thing most would think of doing is obtaining money with it. And he doesn't. He just helps as best as he can otherwise. He doesn't disrupt the whole world to fit his vision when maybe it would be more ethical to actually but that's another conversation. The point is he just helps. That's what appeals to me right now in superheroes. Ones that just help. Not ones that hog the wealth.

"My mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.' To this day, especially in times of disaster, I remember my mother's words, and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers—so many caring people in this world." —Fred Rogers

So I'm not crazy, right?

giphy.gif


...right?
 
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Azoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
682
Kuwait
I highly recommend that you see the new joker movie, it tackles the themes you're talking about. I won't go into details because that would be a spoiler, but trust me when I say that it's something you'd find appealing.
 

Listai

50¢
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,669
I highly recommend that you see the new joker movie, it tackles the themes you're talking about. I won't go into details because that would be a spoiler, but trust me when I say that it's something you'd find appealing.

Came here to say this, as my girlfriend and I re-watched the Nolan trilogy prior to seeing Joker and I had the same nagging feeling throughout about how there are so many more things Bruce has the means to do that would have a greater impact than his role of Batman in that universe.

Anyway, as you said Joker tackles those themes of economic disparity really well.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Batman really feels like he's slipped a long way on the pop culture meter these past few years.
 
Sep 28, 2018
496
I agree with you OP, and that's why I prefer Superman in fact I came here to suggest him but you talked about him in the last half ha. I hate that Snyder's trilogy explored Superman as a messiah figure when the interesting part about the character is as Clark Kent, he's an investigative journalist who doesn't necessarily use his all-powerful strength to solve problems. It's a choice he makes to do good a different way. He's the ultimate immigrant preaching about Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

In the Trump era of fake news and corruption and bad border policies, the time for a Superman movie is ripe. Captain America proved audiences resonate with this type of character and want to see more of them in theaters. WB needs to get back to making Superman on the big screen ASAP. Not Birds of Prey or whatever.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,184
A rich white descends from his castle on the hill to a city he swears is his to met out justice.

At least Tony Stark owns the optics
 

Pau

Self-Appointed Godmother of Bruce Wayne's Children
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,849
If it weren't for his kids, I'd feel the same, honestly. In my headcanon the kids and Selina dismantle the fortune.
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,527
thats what makes superhero stories interesting imo, how perception of what they do changes overtime based on how i change as i grow or how culture/politics/etc change with shifting attitudes

like with the xmen and their oppression, i used to think it was good of them to work to become accepted. but now that im older its like, this is actually fkin stupid, they shoot lasers and shit. theyre literally better than humans. and now look, they have their own nation and are flexing on humanity and it makes perfect sense
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,711
If Batman invested in urban development and job opportunities then Gotham would be farther along than it is now.

But it's more fun and angsty to dress in a rubber animal suit like a furry instead.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,184
If it weren't for his kids, I'd feel the same, honestly. In my headcanon the kids and Selina dismantle the fortune.
You know the exact moment when i was like "I am good" on batman? During No Man's Land when he told Superman to leave instead of help. Thats when I was like "Oh, this motherfucker is crazy too"
 

Azoor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
682
Kuwait
Came here to say this, as my girlfriend and I re-watched the Nolan trilogy prior to seeing Joker and I had the same nagging feeling throughout about how there are so many more things Bruce has the means to do that would have a greater impact than his role of Batman in that universe.

Anyway, as you said Joker tackles those themes of economic disparity really well.

At least the Nolan movies showed Bruce and his parents actually helping people using their massive wealth, it also showed Bruce as someone who genuinely went out of his way to abandon his wealth only to become wiser and actually care for people, this is why he said he didn't want to be an excicutioner.
 

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Has he really? He had a very rough 2016 (BvS, SS, Killing Joke all in the same year) but he's still insanely popular and the flagship of DC.

I just think people want their heroes to be a little more light hearted like Aquaman or Thor these days.

After watching Joker especially it felt like we're meant to laugh at the whole idea of Batman.
 

RiOrius

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,083
I don't see how Superman is any better. Like Batman, he's an individual with an unfathomable amount of power that he did nothing to earn and which he uses to stop street-level crimes. Batman could be doing more with his money, but so too could Superman do more. He could fight hunger by transporting food from rich nations to poor or helping prepare land for agriculture, he could drag an asteroid with valuable metals to impoverished lands to give them an economical boost, etc. But instead he works a normal job, stops muggings on his lunch break, helps out in emergencies and occasionally ends a world-level threat. Basically what Batman does, but with a more colorful costume.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Childhood is thinking Batman is the good guy

Adulthood is realizing Poison Ivy is the good guy
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
You do sound like a wet blanket

Batman for a long time has been examined and portrayed as a hero, in the sense that he tries to help the people of Gotham against criminals, but ultimately a deranged rich dude, reckless vigilante, and someone no too different from the people in his rogues gallery. He doesn't have to be perfect. Your argument mainly just seems to be rich dude = bad. I don't get how Batman "disrupts the whole world" anymore than a super powered guy in a Spidersuit swinging around on a superpowered guy with an S flying around
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,053
Rich White dude beating up poor criminals when investing his billions into public works and infrastructure would be 1000x more effective at reducing crime. Yeah, I have a problem with Batman too...

A rich white descends from his castle on the hill to a city he swears is his to met out justice.

At least Tony Stark owns the optics

What have you done, you've turned this into Marvel vs DC now...
 

Fatoy

Member
Mar 13, 2019
7,231
Came here to say this, as my girlfriend and I re-watched the Nolan trilogy prior to seeing Joker and I had the same nagging feeling throughout about how there are so many more things Bruce has the means to do that would have a greater impact than his role of Batman in that universe.

Anyway, as you said Joker tackles those themes of economic disparity really well.
I'm hardly a big Batman fan, but one of the best parts of his character makeup is that he's not a generic do-gooder.

Of course there's much more Bruce Wayne could be doing with his seemingly limitless wealth than building new ways to be a one-man ninja army, but then Bruce Wayne wouldn't get to go out at night and skulk around, punishing people. And he likes punishing people.

For the most part, in comics and films, Batman has pretty consistently been presented as a messed-up guy who uses his wealth to follow an endless, dark, and perpetually violent path of nonspecific and directionless revenge. And the major source of friction in the best Batman stories is the fact that he's doing that primarily for himself. The people he helps are a secondary benefit.

So if it helps, OP, I'm not convinced any media expects you to see Batman as a billionaire saviour. All his money can't even save him from himself.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,184
A rich white descends from his castle on the hill to a city he swears is his to met out justice.

At least Tony Stark owns the optics

Iron Man is definitely Randian but at least he is usually concerned with fighting high tech/alien/magical antagonists, characters that require someone to wield a superpowered suit. He doesn't don the Iron Man suit and punch poor people.
 

Bor Gullet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
I just think people want their heroes to be a little more light hearted like Aquaman or Thor these days.

After watching Joker especially it felt like we're meant to laugh at the whole idea of Batman.

IDK.

I think Matt Reeves Batman is going to be huge. It's funny you bring up Joker because that film is about to become the highest grossing R rated film of all time, and
they couldn't resist including Batman's origin story in it.
 
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Deleted member 32561

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 11, 2017
3,831
I like the idea of "benevolent" people of high class, given how in reality those of a certain height on the totem pole will inevitably be corrupt in reality. A character using such a station of power for good rather than one's own benefit in a fictional setting is just something fantastical that appeals to me I guess.

However, the fact of the matter is that Batman still never actually... invests in Gotham? His investment in Gotham is him LARPing as a superhero. Solving symptoms rather than actual issues.

So yeah I feel you OP.
 

Deleted member 984

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,203
Considering the times Batman was created as well as superman they borrow heavily from ideology that was popular around the time. The Rand influences are strong especially in their imagery.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
I don't see how Superman is any better. Like Batman, he's an individual with an unfathomable amount of power that he did nothing to earn and which he uses to stop street-level crimes. Batman could be doing more with his money, but so too could Superman do more. He could fight hunger by transporting food from rich nations to poor or helping prepare land for agriculture, he could drag an asteroid with valuable metals to impoverished lands to give them an economical boost, etc. But instead he works a normal job, stops muggings on his lunch break, helps out in emergencies and occasionally ends a world-level threat. Basically what Batman does, but with a more colorful costume.
You definitely have a point, but I feel like Superman's power level has been a lot more variable than Batman's wealth has been, at least in the last twenty years. The famous DCAU Supes is sort of on the weaker end, for example. Then there's the nutso anime Supes in the DCEU. (Whereas in both of those depictions, Batman is kind of the same.) So it depends how powerful of a Superman we're talking about.
 

teruterubozu

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,912
He's not supposed to be squeaky clean and appealing. He's supposed make you uncomfortable and conflicted.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,977
Batman's rogues gallery is more than half the appeal anyway

That said, he's practically a reluctant billionaire unlike Tony Stark. I kinda feel like part of the point of Batman is that he has all that money and he'd trade every cent to bring his parents back or free Gotham from all crime. Also despite his extreme wealth, he's fairly miserable and tortured.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,711

Jombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,392
They're mostly rich out of convenience, to explain away how they get all their tech and shit.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,165
Bruce gets off on the self flagellation that is dressing up to beat people in a dying city that is literally cursed, stop trying to shame him
 

Listai

50¢
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,669
I'm hardly a big Batman fan, but one of the best parts of his character makeup is that he's not a generic do-gooder.

Of course there's much more Bruce Wayne could be doing with his seemingly limitless wealth than building new ways to be a one-man ninja army, but then Bruce Wayne wouldn't get to go out at night and skulk around, punishing people. And he likes punishing people.

For the most part, in comics and films, Batman has pretty consistently been presented as a messed-up guy who uses his wealth to follow an endless, dark, and perpetually violent path of nonspecific and directionless revenge. And the major source of friction in the best Batman stories is the fact that he's doing that primarily for himself. The people he helps are a secondary benefit.

So if it helps, OP, I'm not convinced any media expects you to see Batman as a billionaire saviour. All his money can't even save him from himself.

Yeah, none of that is lost on me but while the Nolan trilogy touches on those aspects (especially in the Dark Knight Rises) it also simultaneously portrays him as a messianic figure who sacrifices everything which is in conflict with y'know his limitless wealth. It's a muddled depiction.

I'm sure the comics do a better job but I don't really have any interest.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,022
Nah, I like Bruce Wayne as a socialist billionaire that invest his vast fortune into improving the city while personally sacrificing his entire well being as he fights Gotham's worst as Batman.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,184
Batman's most memed and popular trait is plotting ways to kill the people that trust him......