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JuicyPlayer

Member
Feb 8, 2018
7,289
Not going to list every console but this is how I see generations.

NES - 8Bit
SNES - 16Bit
PS1 - 32Bit
N64 - 64Bit
PS2 - 128Bit
PS3 - 256Bit
PS4 - 512Bit
PS5 - 1024bit

These numbers feel more powerful to me. Hell yes!
 

DMczaf

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,259
Las Vegas, NV
cAxJV48SYKkbSbNLrkfeFgRsZE_KEJ7bcXaAVre0uJE.jpg
 

Clive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,081
How many simultaneous colors on screen can the PS5 and Series X even display?
 

onpoint

Neon Deity Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
14,908
716
I do miss the days of bits and fun console names, Sega names to be exact. Genesis, Saturn... those were iconic. Can't knock PlayStation's success but man, Playstation + # is boring to me, and then you have whatever the hell Microsoft is doing. Imagine if the rumored powerful new Xbox was actually marketed as Microsoft Lockheart or something actually distinct.

Sigh.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
But PlayStation 3 was only a 64 bit machine?

Depends on what you mean when you refer to "bits." The CPU had 64-bit registers, but there are various 128-bit busses for SIMD operations. It calls into question what people are referring to when they talk about bits. The 68000 CPU, for example, has a 16-bit bus but 32-bit internal registers. When the CPU talks to outside ram, it does it 16-bits at a time, but once data is loaded into the registers, it performs 32-bit operations just like the Playstation or Sega Saturn or whatever. And you can use fat 32-bit registers as packed 8888 or 16.16 fixed point numbers or whatever with no real restrictions.

So, if people say the Sega Genesis is a 16 bit machine, then you're measuring the bus, which would make it accurate to call the PS3 a 128-bit machine. However, Atari used the same exact processor in their Atari ST, where they advertised it as a "32-bit machine." ST stands for "Sixteen thirty-two" where they are acknowledging the different between bus width and register width. If we use that nomenclature, the PS3 would be a 64/128 bit machine.

Of course all that only refers to the CPU. I'm fairly certain the PS3 GPU uses 256-bit registers.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,927
I do miss the days of bits and fun console names, Sega names to be exact. Genesis, Saturn... those were iconic. Can't knock PlayStation's success but man, Playstation + # is boring to me, and then you have whatever the hell Microsoft is doing. Imagine if the rumored powerful new Xbox was actually marketed as Microsoft Lockheart or something actually distinct.

Sigh.

Numbers are boring, but they don't confuse the average consumer.

Sega Genesis or Sega Saturn, which is the newest one?

Playstation 2 or Playstation 3?

iPhone 4 or iPhone 6?

Galaxy S7 or Galaxy S9?

Easy to understand progression. But yes, I too would prefer actual console names. Yet, if mainline phones ever did that I'd be confused as all hell due to their yearly releases.
 

onpoint

Neon Deity Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
14,908
716
Numbers are boring, but they don't confuse the average consumer.

Sega Genesis or Sega Saturn, which is the newest one?

Playstation 2 or Playstation 3?

iPhone 4 or iPhone 6?

Galaxy S7 or Galaxy S9?

Easy to understand progression. But yes, I too would prefer actual console names. Yet, if mainline phones ever did that I'd be confused as all hell due to their yearly releases.
I understand the logic for uninformed consumers. I don't even think it's the wrong move. It's obviously working, games have never been more successful. I'd counter this is what commercials and boxes are for, but who even watches TV anymore? Old folks who are still the most likely to be confused.

I know you're right. But the mystique of it is just gone. And I miss that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,987
México
Depends on what you mean when you refer to "bits." The CPU had 64-bit registers, but there are various 128-bit busses for SIMD operations. It calls into question what people are referring to when they talk about bits. The 68000 CPU, for example, has a 16-bit bus but 32-bit internal registers. When the CPU talks to outside ram, it does it 16-bits at a time, but once data is loaded into the registers, it performs 32-bit operations just like the Playstation or Sega Saturn or whatever. And you can use fat 32-bit registers as packed 8888 or 16.16 fixed point numbers or whatever with no real restrictions.

So, if people say the Sega Genesis is a 16 bit machine, then you're measuring the bus, which would make it accurate to call the PS3 a 128-bit machine. However, Atari used the same exact processor in their Atari ST, where they advertised it as a "32-bit machine." ST stands for "Sixteen thirty-two" where they are acknowledging the different between bus width and register width. If we use that nomenclature, the PS3 would be a 64/128 bit machine.

Of course all that only refers to the CPU. I'm fairly certain the PS3 GPU uses 256-bit registers.
I never read the word "bit" so many times before.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,927
I understand the logic for uninformed consumers. I don't even think it's the wrong move. It's obviously working, games have never been more successful. I'd counter this is what commercials and boxes are for, but who even watches TV anymore? Old folks who are still the most likely to be confused.

I know you're right. But the mystique of it is just gone. And I miss that.

I miss it too, but it makes sense.

Again, consoles don't come out as often as phones but for a casual that perhaps skips a generation it could be confusing. If phone did that stuff I know I'd be frustrated. Imagine if it was like iPhone Lennon, iPhone Crystal, iPhone Quantum, iPhone Centauri, and then iPhone Macintosh, and it's been four years since your last phone. You'd be like, what the hell is a Centauri? Which one is the latest one?

Still, give me that Playstation Luminous.
 

Outrun

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,781
I wish people had declared their rejection of TFOPS 1 months ago!

I am old skool. I like judging performance by simultaneous colours :P
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I need my flops buddy. Integer math is for chumps who care about things like "cryptography" and "array indices". I can't stand that shit. Gimme my floating point numbers on the double.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,086
Peru
To be fair I don't even know what a teraflop is. Mega flop though? Seen plenty of those.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,668
I will buy a next-gen console who's accessibility/performance is most like that afforded by ROM cartridges. If either Sony or MS can demonstrate that capability to a significant effect, I'll be on board with their machine. Designing around a super fast SSD and I/O pipeline in a closed/proprietary environment that really allows devs to leverage a system's capabilities is going to be a huge game changer.
 

ss_lemonade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,641
I miss poly counts. Saturn could do 200k texture mapped polygons (it was even in the manual). Dreamcast was 3million? And xbox was 300 million polys?
 

dom

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,427
Can I trade all these bits for several shave and a haircuts?
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
i don´t even know what teraflops are, i am from the time of bits and bytes

a "flop" is a floating point operation. An operation refers to any sort of mathematical operation, like addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. Floating point refers to the type of data this type of operation is performed upon. This all relates to bits, and how numbers are represented in bytes.

Bits are binary digits, representing either 1 or 0. Alone, a single bit is pretty much meaningless, which is why a byte, or 8 bits in a row, is the smallest unit of data that computers can normally process. If you sit and map out every possible combination of 1 and 0 bits that 8 in a row (1 byte) can be, you'll find you arrive at 256 different combinations. This means you can represent 256 unique numbers - like 0 to 256, or -128 to 127, with one byte. If you want to represent more numbers, you need more bits. The number of bits present, determines the number of unique combinations that can be represented.

These combinations can be toggles for lots of different things. They could hold values that represent colors in a palette. If your palette is 4 bits wide, you can only represent 16 colors (this is what the Super NES and Sega Genesis usually use to draw pixels with on screen, with each byte therefore representing two pixels). They could hold the number of hit points your character has. Data can actually be as many bits wide as you want, but the size the CPU processes limits what kinds or how fast you can perform math on these numbers. So like, say you had an 8-bit processor, and you're making an RPG, and you need 16 bits to represent thousands of hit points for your character. Your processor works a single operation only 8 bits at a time, so it'll need multiple cycles to process larger operations on a 16-bit number.

All of the above is essentially for whole numbers, you notice we haven't mentioned decimal places. Be mindful that there are only so many permutations of 1s and 0s available in any given bit string to represent all possible combinations of numbers. This presents a problem for decimal numbers for trigonometry and linear algebra, the types of math heavily used for 3D calculations. With these kinds of math, you might be dealing with numbers like 12.000032 where those trailing digits past the decimal really, really matter. With the method of storing numbers we used above, we where we mapped single numbers to bit-field patterns, we wouldn't have nearly enough bits present in, say, a 64-bit wide variable to represent all the values past the decimal. So instead, for decimal numbers, programmers use a standard called floating point. Floating point stores numbers in scientific notion. It does so by breaking up a 32-bit variable into various smaller bit-string patterns to store different parts of a scientific notation number.

It's getting really into the weeds to talk about exactly how these numbers are broken up into segments, not least of which because floating point numbers use a rarely used method for representing negative numbers than most programmers are used to, but the long short of it is that a floating point number is made up of data that needs to be processed differently. To do math on a floating point number might require multiple cycles compared to the same math done on a non-floating point number.

a FLOP is how many floating point operations can be done in 1 second. Nothing more, nothing less. In any given moment, a game will be doing all sorts of operations both floating point or non-floating point, and the number being done in a moment can change.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
Numbers are boring, but they don't confuse the average consumer.

Sega Genesis or Sega Saturn, which is the newest one?

Playstation 2 or Playstation 3?

iPhone 4 or iPhone 6?

Galaxy S7 or Galaxy S9?

Easy to understand progression. But yes, I too would prefer actual console names. Yet, if mainline phones ever did that I'd be confused as all hell due to their yearly releases.
Xbox 360 or Xbox One X?

iPhone 8 or iPhone X?

Kindle Oasis or Kindle Fire 8.9?

iPad 2 or the new iPad?
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I miss poly counts. Saturn could do 200k texture mapped polygons (it was even in the manual). Dreamcast was 3million? And xbox was 300 million polys?

The dreamcast can do more than 3 million polygons per second. The limiting factor for how many polygons a second the dreamcast can display if you're going for highest number possible is the size of the vertex bins available in the tile accelerator. You can stuff as many vertexes into that area as memory will allow. If you use the "Sprite" mode which represents quads with 2 parameters instead of 4, you can double your polycount. In normal operation, the limiting factor of the Dreamcast is that it doesn't have a GPU, all vertex transformations are done on the SH4 CPU then pushed to VRAM for deferred rasterization. If you don't need to do any vertex transformations at all, like you were streaming vertex data that was pre-calculated, then that's no longer a bottleneck. The SH4 has a really neat feature called a storage queue which can send 32-bytes of data to any address in VRAM ultra fast, which can be performed in a loop with a prefetch operation to very quickly stream data. You can get like 10 million+ polygons out of the dreamcast this way.
 

Net_Wrecker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,734
a "flop" is a floating point operation. An operation refers to any sort of mathematical operation, like addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. Floating point refers to the type of data this type of operation is performed upon. This all relates to bits, and how numbers are represented in bytes.

Bits are binary digits, representing either 1 or 0. Alone, a single bit is pretty much meaningless, which is why a byte, or 8 bits in a row, is the smallest unit of data that computers can normally process. If you sit and map out every possible combination of 1 and 0 bits that 8 in a row (1 byte) can be, you'll find you arrive at 256 different combinations. This means you can represent 256 unique numbers - like 0 to 256, or -128 to 127, with one byte. If you want to represent more numbers, you need more bits. The number of bits present, determines the number of unique combinations that can be represented.

These combinations can be toggles for lots of different things. They could hold values that represent colors in a palette. If your palette is 4 bits wide, you can only represent 16 colors (this is what the Super NES and Sega Genesis usually use to draw pixels with on screen, with each byte therefore representing two pixels). They could hold the number of hit points your character has. Data can actually be as many bits wide as you want, but the size the CPU processes limits what kinds or how fast you can perform math on these numbers. So like, say you had an 8-bit processor, and you're making an RPG, and you need 16 bits to represent thousands of hit points for your character. Your processor works a single operation only 8 bits at a time, so it'll need multiple cycles to process larger operations on a 16-bit number.

All of the above is essentially for whole numbers, you notice we haven't mentioned decimal places. Be mindful that there are only so many permutations of 1s and 0s available in any given bit string to represent all possible combinations of numbers. This presents a problem for decimal numbers for trigonometry and linear algebra, the types of math heavily used for 3D calculations. With these kinds of math, you might be dealing with numbers like 12.000032 where those trailing digits past the decimal really, really matter. With the method of storing numbers we used above, we where we mapped single numbers to bit-field patterns, we wouldn't have nearly enough bits present in, say, a 64-bit wide variable to represent all the values past the decimal. So instead, for decimal numbers, programmers use a standard called floating point. Floating point stores numbers in scientific notion. It does so by breaking up a 32-bit variable into various smaller bit-string patterns to store different parts of a scientific notation number.

It's getting really into the weeds to talk about exactly how these numbers are broken up into segments, not least of which because floating point numbers use a rarely used method for representing negative numbers than most programmers are used to, but the long short of it is that a floating point number is made up of data that needs to be processed differently. To do math on a floating point number might require multiple cycles compared to the same math done on a non-floating point number.

a FLOP is how many floating point operations can be done in 1 second. Nothing more, nothing less. In any given moment, a game will be doing all sorts of operations both floating point or non-floating point, and the number being done in a moment can change.

I don't understand how this site can be anti-crunch and also allow these kinds of posts. How am i supposed to make sense of this in a normal 8 hour work day smh 😤
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,050
I do miss the days of bits and fun console names, Sega names to be exact. Genesis, Saturn... those were iconic. Can't knock PlayStation's success but man, Playstation + # is boring to me, and then you have whatever the hell Microsoft is doing. Imagine if the rumored powerful new Xbox was actually marketed as Microsoft Lockheart or something actually distinct.

Sigh.

"Series X" sounds cool and mysterious to me
 

Kareha

Banned
Jun 15, 2018
1,460
United Kingdom
Adults, young and old, arguing over which plastic box is the best is just laughable and also slightly sad. Kids arguing in the playground about it is fine, I did it back when the Master System came out in the UK when I was 11. When the Megadrive came out I was 14 and it was then I just thought arguing over this sort of thing was stupid and didn't achieve anything.
 

ToddBonzalez

The Pyramids? That's nothing compared to RDR2
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,530
I want to know how many teraflops each from the past console can compute now. Like how many T-flops was the NES?
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I want to know how many teraflops each from the past console can compute now. Like how many T-flops was the NES?

0, the NES can't perform floating point arithmetic. And even if you do it the slow way by hand with the CPU, the T stands for tera, doing it manually with the NES would be more seconds per floating point operation.