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AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
What a bizarre take. The man was a shithead. All these characters were awful people. There are hundreds of other leading characters that are better suited for admiration long before Arthur. Damn i really hated this game

I dont want to pile on.

But i will.

Pacino in Godafther. Kills pretty much everyone. Bad character?

Brando in Godfather. Kills a fucking horse. Mobster. Kills people point blank. Hires a brutal guy to kill his enemies. bad character?

Arthur actually has a pretty great redemption arc. He literally turns into a good guy. although its gradual and hes complicit right up until the end.
 

Deleted member 7148

Oct 25, 2017
6,827
It sucks that I found the gameplay so poor because I really was sucked into that story. I just couldn't take any more of it after about 10 hours. I wish I could have seen it to the end just to see what happens to Arthur. Oh well.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
42,951
Dutch is a full on narcissist douche who can't take a single criticism, coupled with some pretty anchored superiority complex. Dude's a complete hack lol

Yet, he kept them alive for all that time. He's not a good dude, but he's never insane or really wrong. There's that part near the end where he kills the one tycoon and then engineers a conflict between the Native Americans and the Army to give the gang cover to escape the area since the Army will have bigger priorities than them. Arthur appears appalled at this plan, how could he incite these Native Americans into a lost cause? But, the plan is fucking brilliant, genius even, and it works. And, why should Dutch give two shits about the Native Americans? He should only be concerned about his gang.

Then there's the time on Guam when he strangles the old lady. Again, Arthur is appalled. But Dutch was absolutely correct, she was going to betray them. What the fuck was he supposed to do? Let he go? Their all killers and thieves, how is he crazy for killing her to look out for his gang?

The story wants you to see Dutch slowly descend into crazy town, but the truth is that even up until the end all of his actions make complete sense.
RDR 2 is this for 60 hours

Arthur : Im a goddamn fool to follow that man

Dutch : I know you're seeing through all of my bs but we do this because of love

Yes, exactly. And it's fucking grating.
 

DarkChronic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,034
The voice work, writing, and storytelling in RDR2 really was next level stuff for video games. Arthur rules. Easily one of my favorite new characters of the past few years.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
He's my favourite protag of all time.
 

Kyrios

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,618
Best Rockstar protag ever and one of the best in video games as far as characters go.
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
I dont want to pile on.

But i will.

Pacino in Godafther. Kills pretty much everyone. Bad character?

Brando in Godfather. Kills a fucking horse. Mobster. Kills people point blank. Hires a brutal guy to kill his enemies. bad character?

Arthur actually has a pretty great redemption arc. He literally turns into a good guy. although its gradual and hes complicit right up until the end.

I framed that post poorly and clarified that literature doesn't ask it protagonists to be good people. I just couldn't get skin deep into the character enough to care about him and his story. The only enjoyment I took from the game's writing was anything around Marston. I didn't need 40-50 hours of Arthur justifying his loyalty to Dutch. There's no nuance in that story except that he is idiotic and by the time he opens up toward the end, I just wanted to move on.

It's interesting you bring up Corleone and gang because there's a real arc there with the characters wanting to change their situation from the offset until the very end. Arthur doesn;t have that personal trajectory until the last two chapters.
 

Deleted member 46948

Account closed at user request
Banned
Aug 22, 2018
8,852
Remember how someone called him generic before release?

Yeah, as excited as I was for RDR2, I wasn't feeling Arthur before release. He did seem like a generic tough guy, I thought it might be intentional because we're supposed to hate him (as he could be the Pinkerton rat or someone who betrays John and makes him leave the gang).


Boy I couldn't have been more wrong if I tried.
 

Kard8p3

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,269
I've posted before about how I think (based on Arthur's internal monologue surrounding their early gang life). That the gang, and Dutch, really did try to be good people and do good things, but that the happenstance they found themselves in slowly made Dutch go crazy and turned him into the monster we know him to be. The game is good at showing that not everything is black and white.
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
I found him to be a privilege white male who keeps harping and pining about the old days but is unaware the privilege he has compare to black folks or the Native American.

Granted he's not as bad as some of the other characters in the game but eh, I couldn't find myself connecting with him.
 

Deleted member 56580

User requested account closure
Banned
May 8, 2019
1,881
Yet, he kept them alive for all that time. He's not a good dude, but he's never insane or really wrong. There's that part near the end where he kills the one tycoon and then engineers a conflict between the Native Americans and the Army to give the gang cover to escape the area since the Army will have bigger priorities than them. Arthur appears appalled at this plan, how could he incite these Native Americans into a lost cause? But, the plan is fucking brilliant, genius even, and it works. And, why should Dutch give two shits about the Native Americans? He should only be concerned about his gang.

Then there's the time on Guam when he strangles the old lady. Again, Arthur is appalled. But Dutch was absolutely correct, she was going to betray them. What the fuck was he supposed to do? Let he go? Their all killers and thieves, how is he crazy for killing her to look out for his gang?

The story wants you to see Dutch slowly descend into crazy town, but the truth is that even up until the end all of his actions make complete sense.


Yes, exactly. And it's fucking grating.

Heh ? lol Dutch knows there was a snitch since the beginning and for some reason he never listened to Arthur, because he's Dutch, hence he's always right

There's no good plan in his case with the native americans or whatever, it was never going to matter with the Pinkertons who'll always end up catching them wherever they might be

Plain disagree on that one. Now I will thank you however, because you reminded me that both of these characters are indeed, incredibly stupid. One could never cut the ombilical cord, the other could never get rid of his ego and it costed him everything
 
OP
OP
ThousandEyes

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
Yet, he kept them alive for all that time. He's not a good dude, but he's never insane or really wrong. There's that part near the end where he kills the one tycoon and then engineers a conflict between the Native Americans and the Army to give the gang cover to escape the area since the Army will have bigger priorities than them. Arthur appears appalled at this plan, how could he incite these Native Americans into a lost cause? But, the plan is fucking brilliant, genius even, and it works. And, why should Dutch give two shits about the Native Americans? He should only be concerned about his gang.

Then there's the time on Guam when he strangles the old lady. Again, Arthur is appalled. But Dutch was absolutely correct, she was going to betray them. What the fuck was he supposed to do? Let he go? Their all killers and thieves, how is he crazy for killing her to look out for his gang?

The story wants you to see Dutch slowly descend into crazy town, but the truth is that even up until the end all of his actions make complete sense.


Yes, exactly. And it's fucking grating.
Dutch is literally Arthur's father figure. He grew up in a virtual bubble his whole life and that's all he knows. its definitely not "grating" or unrealistic that he would remain loyal to Dutch all this time even when shit is going down
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
What a bizarre take. The man was a shithead. All these characters were awful people. There are hundreds of other leading characters that are better suited for admiration long before Arthur. Damn i really hated this game

It's what you make it.

Arthur Morgan's story posits that bad people, who have done terrible things, may still be capable of redemption. What it asks the player is whether or not someone like Arthur Morgan can possibly be redeemed. Can someone who has done so many awful things in his life ever become "good"?

In the downturn of his life, brought on by his terminal illness, Arthur attempts to do as much good for the people he cares about as possible. Because he does not have long to live, he doesn't have the longterm opportunity to be redeemed, so we as the audience are left to decide the value of Arthur's action. What is the worth of a good thing done by a bad person?

If a bad person wants to be good, and devotes the rest of their short life to doing the right thing, did they die a good person? Or did they just die a bad person? If one's actions determine one's character, what is the meaning of your actions? It's worth noting that Arthur never believed he was redeemable or was a good person and focused all his final energy at giving John Marston a chance at turning it around.

The depth of Arthur's character, and his success as a protagonist, doesn't really come from admiration. It comes from the fact he's just really well written and really complicated and serves a broader narrative about the relationship between loyalty and morality.

I'm not trying to change your mind, you obviously hate the game and that's cool, but this is why so many people like Arthur.
 
OP
OP
ThousandEyes

ThousandEyes

Banned
Sep 3, 2019
1,388
I found him to be a privilege white male who keeps harping and pining about the old days but is unaware the privilege he has compare to black folks or the Native American.

Granted he's not as bad as some of the other characters in the game but eh, I couldn't find myself connecting with him.
i think that's part of his character.. I don't see how that's a negative. He is definitely quite progressive when it comes to racial issues at that time but also has ignorance about certain things like when he thought Lenny would be ok in Lemoyne. That's what you get when you grow up in a virtual, insular enclave for your whole life

It's what makes him a realistic character
 

AzureJet

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 25, 2017
197
Definitely one of the better written characters of this gen. My emotions were especially torn at
The end of the journey, when you occasionally hear him coughing. After one of the final missions in the story, you take control of him after he sits down and the cutscene ends. But if you don't do anything, he'll sit there and gasp for breath and wheeze. It was painful to listen to.
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,078
Gaithersburg MD
Outside of the story, which is great, Arthur is one of the best examples of a player being able to customize the character's appearance to their liking and still have it fit well within the game.

I see your picture of Arthur, but to me that isn't Arthur. To me this will always be Arthur:
dictator93_reddeadredvpksr.png
 
Oct 26, 2017
5,435
Definitely one of the better written characters of this gen. My emotions were especially torn at
The end of the journey, when you occasionally hear him coughing. After one of the final missions in the story, you take control of him after he sits down and the cutscene ends. But if you don't do anything, he'll sit there and gasp for breath and wheeze. It was painful to listen to.

The attention to detail in the world is really second to none. One play through isn't even enough to experience it all.

It's what you make it.

Arthur Morgan's story posits that bad people, who have done terrible things, may still be capable of redemption. What it asks the player is whether or not someone like Arthur Morgan can possibly be redeemed. Can someone who has done so many awful things in his life ever become "good"?

In the downturn of his life, brought on by his terminal illness, Arthur attempts to do as much good for the people he cares about as possible. Because he does not have long to live, he doesn't have the longterm opportunity to be redeemed, so we as the audience are left to decide the value of Arthur's action. What is the worth of a good thing done by a bad person?

If a bad person wants to be good, and devotes the rest of their short life to doing the right thing, did they die a good person? Or did they just die a bad person? If one's actions determine one's character, what is the meaning of your actions? It's worth noting that Arthur never believed he was redeemable or was a good person and focused all his final energy at giving John Marston a chance at turning it around.

The depth of Arthur's character, and his success as a protagonist, doesn't really come from admiration. It comes from the fact he's just really well written and really complicated and serves a broader narrative about the relationship between loyalty and morality.

I'm not trying to change your mind, you obviously hate the game and that's cool, but this is why so many people like Arthur.

I appreciate you typing this and I understand. Everything you say makes sense but I can't help but wonder if the game needed to address his illness sooner for me to get behind the character, good or bad. My biggest hang up is the writing here. You're spending 70-80% of the time you spend with Arthur loyal to Dutch's vision rather than his own. So by then, for me, it's like, where are we going with this character? What's the end game here? Because in other works, be it a Scorsese movie or a De alma or a Coppola, the character's arc is always on the move. Tony Montanna 's plan is already in place once we see him get his green card and while things look up for him as the movie progresses, his humanity goes deeper into the dumps. So I wanted to see more of something happening in the world . The bulk of the game felt very much like a game about Dutch and me playing as a henchman. By the time said henchman starts coughing it up late in the game, the writing has already lost me.

This should have been my first post here and not the shitty one you quoted.
 
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Xevross

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,048
I agree OP, he's an incredible character in a fantastic story. Towards the end it just got more and more emotional, and the ending left me with a feeling that only TLOU has managed before. RDR2 is a phenomenal game, one I doubt I'll ever forget.
 

Pascal

â–˛ Legend â–˛
The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
10,228
Parts Unknown
Yeah I loved Arthur. One of my favorite aspects of RDR2 was reading through Arthur's journal by the gang's campfire at night and just seeing all of his thoughts on what was happening and admiring his drawings. Brad at Giant Bomb said that Arthur has the soul of a poet, and that really shines through when you read his journal.

It made it hurt all the more when John inherited the journal and started to write in it. It just wasn't the same after that.
 

Deleted member 4037

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,989
Honestly I think hes just fine, nothing special in the grand scheme of things. Although I think the pacing is a lot to blame.
 

Oghuz

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,897
Best videogame protagonist of all time. I love the guy, with his flaws and all.
 

Deleted member 20433

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
249
My favourite protagonist ever. I was really skeptical at first, as I hoped you'd play as Marston, but Rockstar really nailed it with Arthur Morgan. He'll probably be my GOAT forever, at least until the next Red Dead Redemption ;)
 

Kayotix

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,312
I really loved the story!! Arthur by the end was great. I got the best ending and loved how it all wrapped up with him.

I hope we can get another game from them way down the road that is a "simpler time" setting. Love the old west! :)
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,048
Arthur was great. Very complex human being. One of their best characters.
 
Nov 2, 2017
4,465
Birmingham, AL
The game is one of the greatest story telling experiences I have ever witnessed. Arthur was a massive part of that. I didn't think they could ever top John Marston as a character, but I was, and still am, upset that I had to leave Arthur at the end and play as John.

I loved Arthur so much, and the "I'm afraid" train station scene is outstanding. I was floored when I found out it was missable when a friend told me he had no clue what scene I was talking about.
 
Oct 30, 2017
9,200
I totally agree with you OP.

He is also my favourite protagonist of all time,I got so attached and fascinated by how the character was written and developed.

What made it so amazing is how realistic the character is...very HUMAN.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,607
My god it was an HBO miniseries in video game form. The only other protagonist I liked that much this gen was Geralt. Controls be damned rockstar knocked this one out of the park
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
He was an excellent character, well acted and well written, with an exceptional development

But I felt that he took shit from Dutch a little too much, for a little too long

He had enough with Dutch at the first half of the game. It took way too long for him to do something about it. I was already pissed at him because of it.

I didnt enjoy the story of the game. I think it had too much filler, and most of it was inconsequential. But Arthur made the game enjoyable.
 

packy17

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,901
I don't think Arthur is some great character, and it's not because he's a bad guy. The actual writing is just poor and contradictory. Dutch isn't insane, despite what the game keeps repeating. His actions are completely logical. Dutch isn't disloyal, he's quite loyal to his people even near the end when he looked insane.

Arthur sits in the backseat of the story for the majority of the game whose only purpose is to nag every gosh darn character to death but never actually doing anything or coming up with alternative solutions himself. Then he suddenly becomes aware he's a shit heel and tries to do some good before dying.

Dutch is a complete narcissist and a literal tyrant. He uses the gang for his own comforts. He always has the nicest tents, clothes, horses, etc. The entire "Tahiti" plan was his sole decision; it's what he wanted, not what the gang wanted. And the game uses Guarma beautifully to show that he never really had a plan to begin with. They crashed on a tropical island, with money to boot. It's exactly what he said he wanted. But he immediately wants to go back home because there's no profit or comfort there.

He's an extremely charming man, so much so that he seems to have charmed you into thinking everything he did was for the good of the gang. That was the whole point of the story - Arthur couldn't see it because he was too enamored with Dutch. The walls start to fall in Guarma and then vanish completely when Dutch leaves him to die later. He does not care about anyone but himself.
 
Oct 26, 2017
12,541
UK
Goddamn this game was amazing. I never played online because by the time I finished the single player I felt I'd had enough RDR2, but boy do I appreciate it so much whenever I think about it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,348
Canada
Arthur Morgan is the type of protagonist RockStar has been attempting to make since GTA IV.

He is by far my favourite protagonist this gen, maybe even of all time.
 

Omanisat

Member
Sep 25, 2018
2,392
North Bay, Canada
Not really? The voice acting's incredible and the dialogue itself it really snappy, but at the end of the day he still falls victum to Rockstar HD Protagonist Syndrome, doing shitty things for shitty people and whining about it the whole time but never actually doing anything about it, never being proactive, never taking any initiative. He's utterly passive, utterly reactive. Up until the very end he's still toadying about for Dutch, for no discernible reason and despite knowing full well Dutch can't be trusted.
 

Ryo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,523
I love how pre-release everyone was thought he was some generic jerk and a letdown after Marston but then we had a Morgan vs Marston poll after the game released and Morgan won comfortably.

A thug and a jerk on the surface but he's actually a much more complex character and by the end you realize he's a total badass.