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Dash Kappei

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,842
I remember looking it up when the PtD Edition came out on PC (forever thank Durante/ DSfix for making it a great experience).

However I'm finally about to begin Bloodborne GOTY today's afternoon, anything I should know first?
 

Shake Appeal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,883
If you have a save that did 100% of the game sitting right before Gwyn and you bought the Artorias of the Abyss DLC, all you need to do is kill a golem and grab the pendant, and the description of the pendant should give you the rest of the information.
In 2020, I tried to play Dark Souls Remastered to its conclusion without any aid or guide, and I agree that paying attention to NPCs and item descriptions is immensely helpful. But I very nearly got to Gwyn without seeing the DLC because it is incredibly obscure; I had to ask a friend, and he immediately laughed because it's such an infamously bad design decision. And I was lucky enough to know that there was DLC; I can imagine situations where first-time players don't even know to look.

I had never even been to that part of the map or met Dusk prior, despite killing the hydra (which is itself optional). It's not even clear you can get out there because the player has likely already died by falling off the cliff while fighting the hydra. There is almost nothing in the level design to point out that small, weird, dead-end corner of the map, and I'd run through that area to take the ladder several times. If I had gone out there right after killing the hydra, it still would have been obscure. Out of context, Dusk does not scream "DLC" at all. "Oolacile" is just another lore word to a first-time player. It has no special significance.

The DLC is packaged with the game. You do not buy it separately. I have never seen the DLC trailer, never read any news about it, and never seen any thumbnail or screenshots of the DLC on a store page. All of that knowledge is metagaming, and it's seemingly difficult for people who are deep in Souls and have run through the game multiple times and anticipated the DLC as it came out to understand how obscure the trigger is without their foreknowledge.
 

LuigiV

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,685
Perth, Australia
I don't know how people found it legit when it released. Using the official guide?
I remember all the gaming sites having instructions on how to access it within a few days.
I believe From literally told players how to do it in the press release and patch notes. At least that's what they did with the DLC for Bloodborne and Three.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
In 2020, I tried to play Dark Souls Remastered to its conclusion without any aid or guide, and I agree that paying attention to NPCs and item descriptions is immensely helpful. But I very nearly got to Gwyn without seeing the DLC because it is incredibly obscure; I had to ask a friend, and he immediately laughed because it's such an infamously bad design decision. And I was lucky enough to know that there was DLC; I can imagine situations where first-time players don't even know to look.

I had never even been to that part of the map or met Dusk prior, despite killing the hydra (which is itself optional). It's not even clear you can get out there because the player has likely already died by falling off the cliff while fighting the hydra. There is almost nothing in the level design to point out that small, weird, dead-end corner of the map, and I'd run through that area to take the ladder several times. If I had gone out there right after killing the hydra, it still would have been obscure. Out of context, Dusk does not scream "DLC" at all. "Oolacile" is just another lore word to a first-time player. It has no special significance.

The DLC is packaged with the game. You do not buy it separately. I have never seen the DLC trailer, never read any news about it, and never seen any thumbnail or screenshots of the DLC on a store page. All of that knowledge is metagaming, and it's seemingly difficult for people who are deep in Souls and have run through the game multiple times and anticipated the DLC as it came out to understand how obscure the trigger is without their foreknowledge.
In that context, to me the only flaw is that the golem isn't spawned automatically as soon as you kill the Hydra, requiring a reload. That players have to go back there after reloading the area after killing the Hydra is the real issue. Not thinking of exploring that part of the map is on the player, imo.

But that's more of a technical issue, since they still didn't change how their engine works up to Sekiro, they just started writing around it. So, for example, an NPC will do a step of their quest, and ask you to return later. What the designers are hoping is that later involves an area load, a death or a bonfire teleport, but what the game is actually telling you, under that NPC dialogue, is "reload this area and talk to this NPC again". If they couldn't fix it in 8 years and with a ton more budget than they had at the time, they wouldn't fix it for that DLC. It's still a valid issue, but less of a design one, in my opinion.

As for it being packaged with the game, to me that only makes the complaints even weaker. What about the Painted World, or Ash Lake? Should they also be easier because there weren't trailers for them? Eh, I really disagree. And I can't imagine how someone playing offline would ever find the entrance to Ash Lake. I guess if you're checking for Mimics by attacking with a large weapon or magic instead of just looking at them, but that's still locking short weapon offline players out of it, and I still have no issues with it. Secrets are fun.

Sure, Oolacile doesn't scream DLC by itself, but the Pendant talking about Oolacile screams Dusk, which will take you to the DLC. If you did meet Dusk, talked to her, read the descriptions of her items, you would know what to do when you get the Broken Pendant. Even if you weren't expecting an entire DLC area with multiple bosses and all, you'd at the very least expect new dialogue and more of her quest. It would be worth checking. I was very disappointed when Yuria didn't have any new dialogue for getting some of the end DLC rewards in Dark Souls 3, because checking was a natural reaction, even if I would never expect another secret area from it.

The two solid issues I can agree with are:

1) No proper communication to check the Duke's Archives. If they were the only other place with golems, that would maybe be fine, but there are golems in Darkroot as well. They should have added an NPC to firelink, or more lines to the Crestfallen Warrior, that would become a note with the dialogue in case he was already dead in your current save. Similar to Gael, in a way, but not as straightforward to the point of "you just talk to him and start the DLC". That was rectified in every DLC since, though, so they did listen to the complaint.

2) The golem containing Dusk doesn't spawn right away. This is more of a technical issue with their engine that they still couldn't solve up to their most recent game. I do hope they find a better way of handling it, though I also hope it won't make it so the quests with NPCs asking for time actually make you have to wait, and reloads can't get around it, that would be a major pain in the ass. This is more of an issue for new players, since OG players had an entire year to figure out about Dusk, but it's still an issue.

If possible, I would change these two things, but I wouldn't change a single thing about the amount of steps required to access the DLC. And while I wouldn't mind changing the Duke's Archive step to somewhere more convenient to access, I also don't think it's important to.

I remember looking it up when the PtD Edition came out on PC (forever thank Durante/ DSfix for making it a great experience).

However I'm finally about to begin Bloodborne GOTY today's afternoon, anything I should know first?
Bloodborne's DLC is much easier to access, just keep in mind that the game throws you straight to NG+, much like Dark Souls 1. If you want to make sure to experience everything on your first playthrough, check before moving on with what is obviously the game's ending.

There's one specific boss fight that requires some quests to be done in order to fight it. It would be major spoilers, though, so it depends on just how much you mind spoiler vs potentially missing on a boss. I didn't do that boss fight on my first playthrough myself, ended up missing it and doing on NG+.

It's not a particularly good fight either, it's worth it more for lore significance and the soundtrack, the fight is whatever and the arena is reused.

I believe From literally told players how to do it in the press release and patch notes. At least that's what they did with the DLC for Bloodborne and Three.
I'm pretty sure From had a blog post explaining it, but it was potentially only in japanese, not sure if Bandai Namco did the same for western audiences.
 

Rai_11

Member
Nov 7, 2017
291
Bloodborne DLC is similar to me. For the whole release of the original game, the giant Amygdala would kill you. But once you get the DLC, the animation will basically be the am that it will kill you, but then all of a sudden it picks you up and transports you to the new DLC world if you WAIT in front of it. No hints or indication as far a I remember.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Bloodborne DLC is similar to me. For the whole release of the original game, the giant Amygdala would kill you. But once you get the DLC, the animation will basically be the am that it will kill you, but then all of a sudden it picks you up and transports you to the new DLC world if you WAIT in front of it. No hints or indication as far a I remember.
851Mjyz.png


It's also the same process as accessing the Nightmare Frontier. The Amygdala will do damage/kill you if you just stand there with nothing, but with a key item, it'll take you to another realm.

The trailer also featured that hand, but that's outside information, just pointing out as a plus, and because it's an incredible trailer:



What you're really saying is it's "on the player" to not explore the dead-end corner behind the hydra twice, once after beating it and again, later, for . . . some reason?
No, I agree that it requiring a revisit is too much, as I mentioned multiple times in the rest of the post that you left out. But you mentioned that you've never been to that part of the map at all. In which case, you'd miss it even if it didn't require a reload. As you did, since you mentioned that you went there multiple times to use the ladder, and never once thought of checking that area.
 

Forgiven Empathy

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
571
England
On one hand, I think having it be a little hidden is fine but was kind of out of the way. It made sense to someone how had beat the game and gotten a bit into the lore, but thinking of it as a completely new player it would be rather easy to miss on the first go. The game shouldn't instantly enter NG+, and I think that's something they improved on later with Dks2 and Dks3.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
On one hand, I think having it be a little hidden is fine but was kind of out of the way. It made sense to someone how had beat the game and gotten a bit into the lore, but thinking of it as a completely new player it would be rather easy to miss on the first go. The game shouldn't instantly enter NG+, and I think that's something they improved on later with Dks2 and Dks3.
That I agree with. I find the pop-up asking if you want to go to NG+ a little lame, even though I understand it's a ridiculous complaint, but if anything to get rid of it they should make not going into NG+ the default behavior, and NG+ being a feature you always need to access from the bonfire, not just throw you into NG+ right way.

Either way, yeah, fair complaint that they did listen to with their next game. They took a step back with Bloodborne, but that was likely just a result of everything being in development at the same time, since every game after used DS2's solution.
 

Mendrox

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,439
Back then it wasn't hidden if you bought the DLC. Well except if you ignore online information by From Software. With every single DLC since Dark Souls they told everyone how to access those new areas and what you need to do.

But yeah if you go in blind nowadays it's difficult to find, but makes a replay way more fun.

I believe From literally told players how to do it in the press release and patch notes. At least that's what they did with the DLC for Bloodborne and Three.

Yes they did that for Dark Souls too
 
Oct 29, 2017
4,276
People are always gonna complain about this as it's just the typical conplaint for how souls conveys info. DS1 was pretty bad tho, as it basically did it in a way like it was always supposed to be there.
 
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jman1954goat

jman1954goat

Linked the Fire
Member
May 9, 2020
12,427
Gbraga First of all Thanks for so many responses I really Like your contributions to the thread and your posts are a pleasure to read and very insightful even when I disagree with things.

The golem containing Dusk doesn't spawn right away. This is more of a technical issue with their engine that they still couldn't solve up to their most recent game.
This is not true actually. Quelana spawns as soon as pyromancy +10 is gotten by you or enters your game by invader. if you stand in front of her spot and someone invades you with pyromancy +10 she pops in front of you right away.

I don't think not spawning the golem is a technical limitation it was a design choice to mimick passage of time. (this was a mistake they should have imediatly spawned gold golem.)

Also they should make the golem in duke's archeves drop the item you need when you first kill him regardless of killing gold golem first. makes no sense that he drops nothing at first and just makes players expect theres no drop from him. let us complete these steps in any order.


Question for you. Since you like the Puzzle of finding DLC what about compromise that the DLC is very easy to get to but inside the DLC itself theres multiple complex puzzles for extra content inside the DLC.
My main problem is without "solving" the obscure puzzle you get 0% DLC content.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Gbraga First of all Thanks for so many responses I really Like your contributions to the thread and your posts are a pleasure to read and very insightful even when I disagree with things.


This is not true actually. Quelana spawns as soon as pyromancy +10 is gotten by you or enters your game by invader. if you stand in front of her spot and someone invades you with pyromancy +10 she pops in front of you right away.

I don't think not spawning the golem is a technical limitation it was a design choice to mimick passage of time. (this was a mistake they should have imediatly spawned gold golem.)

Also they should make the golem in duke's archeves drop the item you need when you first kill him regardless of killing gold golem first. makes no sense that he drops nothing at first and just makes players expect theres no drop from him. let us complete these steps in any order.


Question for you. Since you like the Puzzle of finding DLC what about compromise that the DLC is very easy to get to but inside the DLC itself theres multiple complex puzzles for extra content inside the DLC.
My main problem is without "solving" the obscure puzzle you get 0% DLC content.
I actually didn't know Quelana spawns right away. I have to imagine this is a different trigger, like she already being loaded but invisible, and wouldn't work with AI involved, for some reason. Because if they had the tech back in DS 1, forget about the golem, why the hell is everything tied to reloads all the way up to Sekiro? Was having a death animation and sound for Yoel really that time consuming if they could just do it right away and didn't actually need a reload to "refresh the quest"?

That's very very interesting. I wish some people who poke at the code on twitter would try to figure that out. If it was merely a design decision, and has been ever since, then I have to agree that it's a pretty weird one, at least.

Agreed about the any order thing, but that's most likely because they tied the portal to simply having the pendant, and tied the pendant appearing to saving Dusk. Maybe it caused issues for them to tie the portal to both things, and that was the best they could do.

It reminds me of the recent Doom Eternal Master Level that recently came out, there was an optional encounter in it that had a very high chance of softlocking you, requiring a restart. They releasaed a hotfix, and that hotfix just completely deleted the encounter entirely. There's just armor to pick up in that room now instead. Some people were confused by this, but the answer is simply "couldn't fix it while keeping everything the same, so we changed it instead". I suspect there are a lot of fixes that are more workarounds in game development, even though I have no experience myself. If removing one encounter eliminates a game breaking issue, why waste precious time trying to keep it? Just delete the encounter and move on.

I don't think your compromise is actually a compromise, it's probably more of a pain in the ass for people who dislike it, to be honest. Instead of googling how to access the DLC once, you have to google how to access content inside the DLC multiple times. In any case, we're arguing about no longer existing issues. I miss having a little challenge to find the DLC areas, but they're no longer doing that for any other game, so From has spoken, as Morrigan said, and they agree that it's a problem. Much like the easy mode discussion, I always respect From's decision, even if I disagree with them. I don't think Souls needs an easy mode, but I would never ask for it to be removed if Elden Ring has one. I still think something would be lost, but I trust them.
 
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jman1954goat

jman1954goat

Linked the Fire
Member
May 9, 2020
12,427
I actually didn't know Quelana spawns right away. I have to imagine this is a different trigger, like she already being loaded but invisible, and wouldn't work with AI involved, for some reason. Because if they had the tech back in DS 1, forget about the golem, why the hell is everything tied to reloads all the way up to Sekiro? Was having a death animation and sound for Yoel really that time consuming if they could just do it right away and didn't actually need a reload to "refresh the quest"?

That's very very interesting. I wish some people who poke at the code on twitter would try to figure that out. If it was merely a design decision, and has been ever since, then I have to agree that it's a pretty weird one, at least.

Agreed about the any order thing, but that's most likely because they tied the portal to simply having the pendant, and tied the pendant appearing to saving Dusk. Maybe it caused issues for them to tie the portal to both things, and that was the best they could do.

It reminds me of the recent Doom Eternal Master Level that recently came out, there was an optional encounter in it that had a very high chance of softlocking you, requiring a restart. They releasaed a hotfix, and that hotfix just completely deleted the encounter entirely. There's just armor to pick up in that room now instead. Some people were confused by this, but the answer is simply "couldn't fix it while keeping everything the same, so we changed it instead". I suspect there are a lot of fixes that are more workarounds in game development, even though I have no experience myself. If removing one encounter eliminates a game breaking issue, why waste precious time trying to keep it? Just delete the encounter and move on.

I don't think your compromise is actually a compromise, it's probably more of a pain in the ass for people who dislike it, to be honest. Instead of googling how to access the DLC once, you have to google how to access content inside the DLC multiple times. In any case, we're arguing about no longer existing issues. I miss having a little challenge to find the DLC areas, but they're no longer doing that for any other game, so From has spoken, as Morrigan said, and they agree that it's a problem. Much like the easy mode discussion, I always respect From's decision, even if I disagree with them. I don't think Souls needs an easy mode, but I would never ask for it to be removed if Elden Ring has one. I still think something would be lost, but I trust them.
Here's the quelana video you can see the spawn at about 2 and a half minutes but the whole video is very neat.

 

OGM_Madness

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Dec 3, 2019
508
Well, the DLC came like a year after the original game came out.

There was a secret NPC princess in the vanilla game called Dusk of Oolacile and she sells you some weird spells.

From Softwafe never did DLC. But Dark Souls was such a hit and the fan base was begging for more, so they ported the game to PC and released the whole Abyss DLC.

That DLC is tied to this Oolacile princess, so you need to find her in order to access the DLC. This is the hardest part, because you need to literally go to a specific area and quit the game, and when you log back in, there's the monster you need to kill.

In my first play through, I missed the Ash Lake. Go to the hollow tree. Hit the wall, grab the chest and head back. Much later, I found behind the chest is another wall that hides 2 whole new areas!

Years later, I replayed the game, grab the platinum and did absolutely everything I could in the game (including the DLC).
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Here's the quelana video you can see the spawn at about 2 and a half minutes but the whole video is very neat.


Holy shit, she straight up spawns before taking her pose, she's not just invisible.

What the hell, LMAO.

Well, if they're require to spawn in this weird looking way, then I guess I can see why they saved it for this very specific scenario you're really unlikely to see. They need to figure out how to spawn things in real time without it looking goofy, then. Though I don't think that would be an issue with the Golem, nobody will be at that point of the map before the Hydra finishes her dying animation unless they're specifically trying to do it, like in a speedrun, so it's a nonissue if the golem spawns with a weird looking animation.

Thank you for this link, I really need to watch this series.
 

Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,451
being esoteric is like a core component of the genre in my opinion lol

it's always fun discovering something new each playthrough imo, I can understand not everyone likes this.

the game forcing you into NG+ after Gwyn is hot garbage though
 

EnVy_CaLiBeR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
289
As much as I love Dark Souls and it's one of my favorite games ever, I agree. The DLC can be easily missed and you almost certainly have to go online and find out how to access it. Completely valid complaint.
 
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jman1954goat

jman1954goat

Linked the Fire
Member
May 9, 2020
12,427
Thank you for this link, I really need to watch this series.
Illusionary wall writes wiki's for dark souls and was active in the scene back when people were trying to figure things out.

some of the videos might be basic for veterans but really cool info is there on how the back bone works.

There are 11 videos for ds1 but only 3 for ds2 and 1 for ds3 as he is still working on videos now.

here's a link to the DS1 playlist Number #9 Lodran's Layout is my favorite. also I liked the soul memory DS2 video (ds2 and ds3 are on a diffrent playlist)

 

CustĂłdio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,901
Brazil, UnaĂ­/MG
Yeah it's horseshit. I think outside of PS3 players on the day of release who just raked through the entire game with a fine-tooth comb, the only person I saw figure it out was a streamer named Kay Plays who took extensive physical notes the whole time.

I'm doing a co-op playthrough with a new player right now—which I realize is already verboten to the experience, but it's pretty fun to shoot things he attacks with my Greatbow and watch them go flying. He still has to do the majority of the boss/enemy dodging if I play a ranged character, so I think it works out well.

There's a gang of us Souls oldies helping him in this playthrough and we haven't exactly set rules on how much stuff we tell him about. I've found it agreeable when he asks for guidance to give him options, like (1) you can go here, (2) you can investigate this thing you saw before, or (3) you can talk to this NPC and see if they have any tips. Using this tried and true method I was able to convince him to go to the Catacombs at his base level where he was immediately blown off a staircase by an exploding head.

Our default guidance to him is to read the descriptions on his key items and exhaust all NPC dialogue and that has served him pretty well. He figured out how to get to lower Undead Burg through a combination of the key description + realizing the Undead Merchant talked about a "terrible goat demon down below."

Then again, he also ran straight past the lower bonfire in Blighttown without noticing it. I forgot our last general tip to him was "Use your eyes"...that's the one he's probably worst at.

Kay's playthrough is just awesome. Everyone at least mildly interested in the souls series or even in gaming design as a whole should watch it
 
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jman1954goat

jman1954goat

Linked the Fire
Member
May 9, 2020
12,427
Surprised no one shitposted with this yet

uo4QgMW.jpg
Ok this image is super funny the waypoint to your lost blood echoes killed me.

to be honest I would not mind a pop up that tells you where your quicksilver bullets go the first time you pick up extra. I did not understand the bullet mechanics when I first started bloodbourne.
 

Tya

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,662
It is DLC. How did you download it if you also don't have the ability to look up how to access it?

For people who didn't forget google existed, it represented a fun experience trying to figure it out.

If you just want a big glowing sign post then as usual, the rest of modern gaming will make you feel good about yourself.

You follow a guide to play these games. You don't get to act smug.
 

Ashgarth

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
250
I love figuring out things like these in rpgs... when there are any clues to figure out.
The method to unlock the DLC descrived here is basically "look it up on the internet after someone else stumbles upon it".
 

4 Get!

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 8, 2019
1,326
Yeah it's horseshit. I think outside of PS3 players on the day of release who just raked through the entire game with a fine-tooth comb, the only person I saw figure it out was a streamer named Kay Plays who took extensive physical notes the whole time.

I felt like Kay knew exactly what she was walking into with this game, which is why she took notes. It's essentially an obscure PS1 game wrapped in PS3-era graphics. There are people here who understand exactly what that means and what to expect from that. Then there are those in this thread who might have never played games like Tomb Raider(1,2,3) , Myst, Resident Evil 1 and 2, Soul Reaver, etc that would leave you hard-stuck on a puzzle with zero help. You had to take notes back then especially if you didn't play the game often.

Unfortunately I have to be on the side of support when it comes to this. I understand the frustrations, but I also didn't like the fact that before the souls games blew up, puzzles and secrets in games were starting to slowly die out in favor of weapon skins and 'showcase' puzzles(like what you find in Uncharted that doesn't require much thought at all and is just a breather from gunplay).
 

4 Get!

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 8, 2019
1,326
to be fair while most are very simple Uncharted had some legit challenging fun to solve puzzles.

To each their own. For me they were fun but not challenging. There wasn't a single time I felt stuck on an Uncharted puzzle and they felt like guided experiences. In comparison an entire Tomb Raider level(in the old games) would load with no arrows, no pre-written notebooks, no easily recognizable slots for figures, and would pretty much tell you "figure it out". The only type of clue you would get would be a familiar chime:



And that's all. While it was frustrating at times and there were times I took a few days to think over a puzzle, it felt way more rewarding to me when I did figure it out using the clues given.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
In that context, to me the only flaw is that the golem isn't spawned automatically as soon as you kill the Hydra, requiring a reload.
It's a pretty big fucking flaw, lol.
Sure, Oolacile doesn't scream DLC by itself, but the Pendant talking about Oolacile screams Dusk, which will take you to the DLC.
But that means nothing for first-time DLC buyers because they don't have the pendant to start with. When you buy the DLC you don't know it's set in Oolacile or anything like that. It's just called "Artorias of the Abyss". Why would you know to explore the Darkroot Basin, or the Duke's Archives, to get started?

This is why I'm saying this DLC access was badly designed. It forces the player to re-explore every single inch of the game map to "spot the difference". This isn't a cool puzzle, it's just pure tedium and it's indefensible.

What you're really saying is it's "on the player" to not explore the dead-end corner behind the hydra twice, once after beating it and again, later, for . . . some reason?
The mental gymnastics in this thread are strong indeed.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,708
New Orleans
I remember being really unhappy that lighting the bonfire after the final boss (a routine and normal thing to do) triggered NG+. I figured NG+ would be triggered by something more obvious, like killing the "final" boss in Demon's Souls.

I had so much more I wanted to explore lol.

I was also annoyed at Best Buy for not receiving my pre-ordered steelbook edition.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
It's a pretty big fucking flaw, lol.

But that means nothing for first-time DLC buyers because they don't have the pendant to start with. When you buy the DLC you don't know it's set in Oolacile or anything like that. It's just called "Artorias of the Abyss". Why would you know to explore the Darkroot Basin, or the Duke's Archives, to get started?

This is why I'm saying this DLC access was badly designed. It forces the player to re-explore every single inch of the game map to "spot the difference". This isn't a cool puzzle, it's just pure tedium and it's indefensible.


The mental gymnastics in this thread are strong indeed.
Dusk was already in the game, they didn't add her role in it just for the DLC, so it's not like someone who just bought it needs to go back to the Hydra spot on a completed (minus Gwyn) save, they just need the pendant, which will tell you about Oolacile, prompting you to return to Dusk. But yes, as far as I'm aware, there's no way of knowing you have to explore the Duke's Archives, that part is indeed a flaw.

I don't think you're arguing in good faith when saying people buying the DLC after owning the game wouldn't know anything about it being related to Oolacile or the Darkroot Garden, though, since the announcement trailer shows the portal and its location, and any information about it would mention Oolacile. It would require a very specific kind of player that played and enjoyed the game, and one day saw the DLC pop up on the store, and didn't bother looking up anything about it to know if they even wanted the DLC, but went ahead and bought it anyway. This specific angle you're pushing for feels very unrealistic.

A lot of people seem to be trying to sell the "what about the PS360 people who bought it as DLC?" angle as if they're the original customers, the people who played it first and had no other way of knowing, when in reality it was originally released as additional content for the PC version, and a couple of months later came out as standalone DLC. They had plenty of ways of knowing by the time they could even buy the DLC.

I agree that they should have properly communicated the Duke's Archives part of it in some way, be it a new NPC in Firelink, new dialogue for the Crestfallen Warrior (that would be replaced by a note if he's already dead in your current save) or something like that. That much is fine. The problem is that the criticism of the way it's accessed often comes tied to praise to how other games handled it, which is just "buy DLC, go to where we tell you". That isn't a proper replacement, it's just giving up entirely on the idea. Which is also valid, but not a straight improvement. With an added message to point you in the direction of the Broken Pendant, Dark Souls 1 would still have a very noticeably harder to access DLC than any other game in the series. The difference isn't just in communication.

I remember being really unhappy that lighting the bonfire after the final boss (a routine and normal thing to do) triggered NG+. I figured NG+ would be triggered by something more obvious, like killing the "final" boss in Demon's Souls.

I had so much more I wanted to explore lol.

I was also annoyed at Best Buy for not receiving my pre-ordered steelbook edition.
Bosses didn't spawn bonfires before Bloodborne, though. I understand feeling this way if Dark Souls 1 wasn't your first, but to me it was very obviously the game's ending. You still shouldn't go straight to NG+, I completely agree with most people on this, but with the only precedent being Demon's Souls, which handled it the exact same way, it shouldn't be really surprising, even if still a negative.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
I don't think you're arguing in good faith when saying people buying the DLC after owning the game wouldn't know anything about it being related to Oolacile or the Darkroot Garden, though, since the announcement trailer shows the portal and its location, and any information about it would mention Oolacile. It would require a very specific kind of player that played and enjoyed the game, and one day saw the DLC pop up on the store, and didn't bother looking up anything about it to know if they even wanted the DLC, but went ahead and bought it anyway. This specific angle you're pushing for feels very unrealistic.

A lot of people seem to be trying to sell the "what about the PS360 people who bought it as DLC?" angle as if they're the original customers, the people who played it first and had no other way of knowing, when in reality it was originally released as additional content for the PC version, and a couple of months later came out as standalone DLC. They had plenty of ways of knowing by the time they could even buy the DLC.
Wat. You say I'm not arguing in good faith when I'm literally the type of player I'm describing, when my main argument wasn't even the Oolacile connection anyway (but the pendant being dropped by that golem in Duke's Archives), and then you... flippantly disregard all the original Dark Souls players who bought the DLC? Those "plenty of ways of knowing" were basically just a google search lol... not in-game hints.

The real solution would have been to either give a clue to go to Duke's Archives in Firelink and get the chain started, or better yet, just pop the broken pendant in your inventory when you buy the DLC. Which is what Dark Souls 2 did, and it worked great.
 

ClearMetal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,315
the Netherlands
But that means nothing for first-time DLC buyers because they don't have the pendant to start with. When you buy the DLC you don't know it's set in Oolacile or anything like that. It's just called "Artorias of the Abyss". Why would you know to explore the Darkroot Basin, or the Duke's Archives, to get started?
Darkroot is where Artorias's grave is located, but that's about it. And even then. Artorias is mentioned on the Abyss ring, but a new player would first have to realise that the DLC is called Artorias of the Abyss, would then have to recall the ring and where they got it, would then have return to that area... and cross several bridges, descend several ladders and thrudge through a lake with short invisible ledges to get to the hidden cave where the DLC actually starts.

Oh but only if they have the pendant collected from a 'unique' mob in a completely unrelated area of the game. Otherwise it doesn't work.

It's what makes these "some people don't want to be spoon fed the DLC" takes so infuriating to me. It's both elitism and black-and-white thinking taken to the absolute extreme. Like the only possible alternative to extreme obtuseness is literally shoving it into your face.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,362
It's what makes these "some people don't want to be spoon fed the DLC" takes so infuriating to me. It's both elitism and black-and-white thinking taken to the absolute extreme. Like the only possible alternative to extreme obtuseness is literally shoving it into your face.
Pretty much. This is an actual textbook example of bad faith, funnily enough.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Wat. You say I'm not arguing in good faith when I'm literally the type of player I'm describing, when my main argument wasn't even the Oolacile connection anyway (but the pendant being dropped by that golem in Duke's Archives), and then you... flippantly disregard all the original Dark Souls players who bought the DLC? Those "plenty of ways of knowing" were basically just a google search lol... not in-game hints.

The real solution would have been to either give a clue to go to Duke's Archives in Firelink and get the chain started, or better yet, just pop the broken pendant in your inventory when you buy the DLC. Which is what Dark Souls 2 did, and it worked great.
So not a single of the original Dark Souls players who bought the DLC watched the trailer or read any information on it? Are you really surprised that I don't think this argument is being made in good faith?

If we ignore the Oolacile part of it, then sure, I can see that. It's not what you did when you quoted me talking about Oolacile and then proceeded to talk about Oolacile, but sure. I agree.

Darkroot is where Artorias's grave is located, but that's about it. And even then. Artorias is mentioned on the Abyss ring, but a new player would first have to realise that the DLC is called Artorias of the Abyss, would then have to recall the ring and where they got it, would then have return to that area... and cross several bridges, descend several ladders and thrudge through a lake with short invisible ledges to get to the hidden cave where the DLC actually starts.

Oh but only if they have the pendant collected from a 'unique' mob in a completely unrelated area of the game. Otherwise it doesn't work.

It's what makes these "some people don't want to be spoon fed the DLC" takes so infuriating to me. It's both elitism and black-and-white thinking taken to the absolute extreme. Like the only possible alternative to extreme obtuseness is literally shoving it into your face.
That's not what should prompt you to go to Darkroot, it's the pendant's description:

Half of a broken stone pendant.
The vine appears to originate from Oolacile.

A powerful magic can be sensed from this
ancient stone. Yet men of this time can
neither manipulate nor sense its power,
which has a distinct air consisting of
both reverence and nostalgia.


The only character from Oolacile in the game is Dusk, so you go back to where Dusk is located, and that's where you get to the DLC. It's even more obvious if you watched the announcement trailer for the DLC, which is in at least a considerable amount of cases the thing that would make you want to buy the DLC in the first place, but ok, apparently none of the original players did that.

Nobody should think of going to Darkroot just by reading the DLC's name, they should think of going to Darkroot after getting the pendant. That there isn't any way of knowing where it is, even in a way as vague as "the Anor Londo archives", is indeed a problem, I completely agree.

And it's not that the only alternative is shoving it into your face, but it's the only alternative they have used since. With the exception of the Scholar of the First Sin version of Dark Souls, that hid the keys again instead of having them pop up in your inventory like the vanilla game. Ironically, in that case I prefer the vanilla approach, since you get access to the DLC areas earlier, increasing build variety by allowing you to make a run for specific equipment.

If we're talking about the way From handled access to DLCs in all of their games, then yeah, Dark Souls 1 is my favorite. It's not that it can't be improved, it's that it hasn't been, they just completely gave up on the idea since. Bloodborne is my favorite Souls game, The Old Hunters is my favorite DLC, but I find the way we access Artorias of the Abyss more interesting than the way we access The Old Hunters. I wish this wasn't seen as such an outlandish, unacceptable claim.
 

Neobunch

Member
Nov 21, 2017
225
One of the more inspired design decisions about Demon's Souls (among an already impressive amount of game-changing decisions, pun intended), was making it in the context and with full knowledge that videogames inevitably become community affairs, and the Internet becomes the bridge between the members. So they went with stupidly obtuse and obscure mechanics, knowing full well everybody's different experiences and notes would complement each other and, as a community, would figure out even each and every last game mechanic. The messages and jolly cooperation are key facets of this same design spirit.

Dark Sould then upped the ante on this. There's huge swaths of mechanics, areas, weapons, characters, quests and interactions that are completely missable. It's part of the core game design. You want to see what you missed? You plug into the community, and decide on the level of help you want to extract from it: simple hints, full walkthroughs, even as far as having the community directly help you advance in the game (through summoning).

And it's already been said, but by the time the Prepare to Die PC version came along, the game was pretty much completely mapped by the community, it would have taken a couple of hours tops to figure out the starting point to get to the DLC, which was ultimately unnecessary as From themselves gave pretty clear hints as to how to get to it.

I'll agree that From should have made it easier for all players to stumble into the DLC, but that's only becuase I firmly believe Artorias of the Abyss is the best piece of DLC ever released for a videogame.