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Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I like the way it's handled in some rpgs, like Trails, where the area it's set in is only one part of the larger world. Lot's of fantasy WRPGs do it this way too, where you are usually going from tackling small threats in small areas to tackling a large threat threatening a huge area, rather than heading to outer space to confront some alien god or whatnot. Such games tend to make personal development slow and remind you that, no matter how strong the party is, you're still one (interesting and random) element in a world of powerful factions you haven't even met yet.

Part of it comes from the idea of a 'world map' allowing you to traverse every inch of habitable existence, combined with the game world only existing for the purposes of that one game and one story. Once the party can zip around the world in under ten seconds, summon elementals and has taken down dragons and greater demons, and any hint of opposing factions can be traversed to and defeated, an enemy that's just a mortal ruler of one place or whatever feels like small fry. It's then combined with bullshit anime power levels crap (Hey, Trails again). That can't help but make a teenager go from a naive nobody to an awakened master sanctioned by the earth goddess/tree of life (another way-overused trope in JRPGS) or whatever inside of a few weeks.

I just finished playing The Outer Worlds, and it was great that the plot that affected the lives of everybody in an entire solar system didn't need gods, aliens or alien gods to have the party make a major impact forever, for good or ill.
 

MrCinos

Member
Oct 26, 2017
740
I'm not gonna lie, its worn off on me and I'd be happy to see a few more jpgs where the end boss is just a person or maybe a group that is similar to yours in design / ability etc etc.
When me and my friend finished Tales of Xillia we were really impressed by the final boss of the game for him being similar to what you describe.
 

mrgoomba

Member
Dec 10, 2017
225
Nothing can top killing a god I love doing it.

But killing your best friend is almost as good
 
OP
OP
Ignis

Ignis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
Yup OP, this got old ages ago right up there with throwing random Christian imagery and characters even if it mad No sense whatsoever back in the 90's (I think Evagelion was to blame for this one honestly)

Technically
FF7 and by extension R? counts because
even with Sephiroth's Hebrew type imagery and naming conventions you actually Shut him down on the very last phase, right before he can truly ascend. Truth be told you are actually fighting weird as hell aliens and their half breed so it was interesting on that front.

From what I can remember
There's

Final Fantasy Tactics
FF3
FF4 (ayyy lmao)
Chrono Trigger
FF12 runs kinda close
Ironically enough Persona 3 and 4 count
I think I have to go back through my games and check.
IMO FF12 and Tactics were the worst for this. Because they had genuinely great down to earth plots with interesting characters that noodled out of control for no god damn reason.
 

Truly Gargantuan

Still doesn't have a tag :'(
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,034
I'm not gonna lie, its worn off on me and I'd be happy to see a few more jpgs where the end boss is just a person or maybe a group that is similar to yours in design / ability etc etc.

Eg I'd be super interested in seeing Persona 6 be about 2 opposing teams of Persona users and the last battle is just some super powered battle between you two and nothing to do with a god. Or maybe the other team knows how to make an artificial god or something and use that to enhance their powers so they are further along than you are and you need to get better to fight them on equal terms at the end.
Persona is the exact wrong series to be looking for this in. SMT has been about killing gods since before it was cool. I mean the series exists in a world where every religion and mythology is real and you can even summon and control gods from those religions. It only makes sense for you to kill God at the end.
In the mainline SMT games you're usually choosing between siding with Yahweh or Lucifer. In Persona you can literally summon Lucifer. There's even a spell type that is labeled as Almighty.
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,783
Yakuza 7 doesn't deal with any sort of god. Just a story about middle aged characters getting their groove back and making a name for themselves.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,360
I'm not gonna lie, its worn off on me and I'd be happy to see a few more jpgs where the end boss is just a person or maybe a group that is similar to yours in design / ability etc etc.

Eg I'd be super interested in seeing Persona 6 be about 2 opposing teams of Persona users and the last battle is just some super powered battle between you two and nothing to do with a god. Or maybe the other team knows how to make an artificial god or something and use that to enhance their powers so they are further along than you are and you need to get better to fight them on equal terms at the end.
That would be it basically going full JoJo, and I'd be happy with it.
is this a serious question? How many JRPG's have you played in the last ten or twenty years?
Err, it's like... 1/5 JRPGs at most, if we're being generous.
 

Camisado

Member
Nov 3, 2017
1,383
I understand that it's done to death, but I don't usually mind it too much?

I would really like to see a JRPG with a really personal story though, where the final fight means so much to the main character but maybe nothing to the rest of the world.
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,220
If it's part of the plot from day 1, it can be amazing. Look at how

Xenogears did it. The entire god concept was fundamental to the entire game, even from the first cutscene.

But yeah, games that do a "Ok you have to fight god now" 20 minutes before the end of the game suck.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,986
To all the people who are saying God deserves to be dethroned:

That was never part of the discussion, no matter how you feel towards any supreme being or for that matter, any object of faith, this is a discussion about the plot point being boring.

Even if that plot point is a universally moral thing, it can get boring and can be done badly.
 

Shake Appeal

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,883
Play Kiseki!

But also (huge Crossbell arc spoilers):
Does the battle against KeA's final form in Ao count as attacking and dethroning God?
 

Biestmann

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,410
The Tales series is quite good at keeping the stakes personal. Some world fuckery always is involved, but the conflict is very much between people.
 

Aja91

Member
Dec 24, 2017
159
I actually think it's fierce. Especially when there's accuracy yo specific mythologies (shin megami tensei games are great at that). I just wish it was more fleshed out and not a last minute plot device throwaway.
 
OP
OP
Ignis

Ignis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,757
To all the people who are saying God deserves to be dethroned:

That was never part of the discussion, no matter how you feel towards any supreme being or for that matter, any object of faith, this is a discussion about the plot point being boring.

Even if that plot point is a universally moral thing, it can get boring and can be done badly.

thanks for reading the OP lol
 

Duffking

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,687
Lost Oddyssey avoids this pretty nicely, the main antagonist is largely a mirror abilities-wise of the protagonists.
 

pbayne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,315
I'm not gonna lie, its worn off on me and I'd be happy to see a few more jpgs where the end boss is just a person or maybe a group that is similar to yours in design / ability etc etc.

Eg I'd be super interested in seeing Persona 6 be about 2 opposing teams of Persona users and the last battle is just some super powered battle between you two and nothing to do with a god. Or maybe the other team knows how to make an artificial god or something and use that to enhance their powers so they are further along than you are and you need to get better to fight them on equal terms at the end.

P6 team should be a sentai team trying to catch the phantom thieves.
 

Dec

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,512
That is only a plot point in one out of 4 games lol

first game is a god and 2 is directly connected to its detriment.
Either way it remains, the games are character developement focused until they get up their own ass by raising the stakes to an absurd degree. Story in these games are trash.
 

Deleted member 34949

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 30, 2017
19,101
I've always loved that Breath of Fire 3's emphasis was less about defeating God and more about seeking out God to ask why the world is in the state that it's currently in and what they could do to fix it. Yeah, they do end up coming into physical conflict when all is said and done, but it genuinely seems like a last resort as opposed to being the point of the journey.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
This is why the new final boss in Royal is so great. Just a man given power who wants to do good.
 

TigerBrownie

One Winged Slayer
Member
May 9, 2018
485
I feel like God should be saved for a potential sequel or something, I mean who do you even kill after that? Satan I guess?
 

Gurgelhals

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,709
Does anyone know where that trope came from originally? I'm just curious because this "dethroning God and taking fate into your own hands" really is that common in JRPG stories. Also connected to this: If there's a stand-in for the Catholic Church in a JRPG, you can bet your ass that it will turn out to be corrupt and evil (no argument there, to be honest).

Is there some specific cultural-historical context or tradition that explains why this trope is so widespread? You know, similar to the hows and whys, in Western popular culture, the Nazis are basically your go-to example, if your story requires an unambiguously evil and irredeemable villain.
 

Shiloh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,709
I know the mother series gets used a lot for ditching tropes but

Mother: Alien, not even the highest ranking one
Earthbound/Mother 2: Same Alien + a Child
Mother 3: Children... Kinda? Definitely not gods.
 

etrain911

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,800
I think this trope is mostly there in SMT/Persona games and some Final Fantasies. DQ 11 S doesn't really have this, neither does Tales of Vesperia, or Ni No Kuni, or the Mother series.
 
Oct 25, 2017
128
It is indeed a tired trope for me. It is annoying when the final boss is a god that shows up at the last second with no explanation. Would prefer if the final boss is a person or group that you fight through out the course of the game and is fleshed out.
 

RROCKMAN

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,810
Persona is the exact wrong series to be looking for this in. SMT has been about killing gods since before it was cool. I mean the series exists in a world where every religion and mythology is real and you can even summon and control gods from those religions. It only makes sense for you to kill God at the end.
In the mainline SMT games you're usually choosing between siding with Yahweh or Lucifer. In Persona you can literally summon Lucifer. There's even a spell type that is labeled as Almighty.

Yet in P3 you can only stall one and in P4 you convince one to piss off

There was only a dethroning of sorts in P5

Actually P5 walked back to a lot of SMT principals that Persona stepped away from

IMO FF12 and Tactics were the worst for this. Because they had genuinely great down to earth plots with interesting characters that noodled out of control for no god damn reason.

I knew 12 ran close but I couldn't remember if you actually got rid of the occuria or not

And I guess I completely forgot about the tail end of FFT, my bad.