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RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,056
On the one hand, based on everything that's happened surrounding CDPR during the development of this game, they've kina got a lot to prove on whether CP2077 will land in a good place tonally. I personally don't think it's gonna be GTA-level satire. The writing in the Witcher games I think at least indicates CDPR's writers are aware of a lot of political issues at hand, but that also came from Sapkowski's prose, which CDPR is working without for the first time in CP2077.

That brings me to the other hand: I haven't played Cyberpunk 2020 and don't know where that is tonally, but this all is based on a tabletop game from the 80's. No matter how much they move the setting forward, this is still going to be steeped in a somewhat outdated depiction of cyberpunk. I heard CP2020 even in its own time was sort of just a tongue-in-cheek evocation of Gibson.

Based on what I've seen from CDPR and what I've read about CP2020, I have the feeling CP2077 is gonna fall somewhere in the middle: not totally dismissive of serious issues like most AAA games, but at the same time still a blockbuster AAA game and not a super-serious commentary on our times.

On modern-day cyberpunk though, does anybody else get the feeling the two Mirror's Edge games are the only decent examples of post-cyberpunk in gaming? At least well--known examples? They both take place in worlds where "the corporations won," but instead of being totally shitty for everybody, those worlds are depicted as "tolerable enough" for most people with a deceptively clean aesthetic. The first ME in particular is about a conflict over how to fight this system and whether it should be fought at all: one central character trying to fight the system from the outside, some others believing it can be reformed from within, etc. Then you've got the stuff in ME's lore about the riots.
 

-COOLIO-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,125
Let me quote myself then:
i would suggest editing that second block into your op with emphasis on "So... I guess what I would ask from people in this thread is to go beyond "this is Cyberpunk not sure what you expected". but even then you're likely to get responses that focus on the sex sells and titillation aspect.

i feel like you're mostly trying to state an opinion of why you feel like this is bad, and you want to foster a discussion of why it's bad. otherwise your question is "why is cyberpunk 2077 doing this bad thing, but please don't bother to mention the obvious reasons.", which doesn't make a lot of sense since cyberpunk 2077 is probably doing it for the obvious reasons.
 
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Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I get it's not a perfect world, but it's presented as a world that is far more 'free' than ours, people can run amok with high tech weapons, alter their bodies to the point where they're barely human and megacorps run everything, and yet they're still mostly making ads for horny boys?
This seems...naive. Who the hell knows if they do anything with all this imagery beyond the surface level (I doubt it) but this idea that technology and 'the future' will result in...less objectification and sexualization of people is just not in line with reality. The advent of social media should show you that at the very least.
 

4 Get!

Alt Account
Banned
Apr 8, 2019
1,326
I mean that's what the Official Staff Communication is for. If people wanna read half of my OP, skip the rest of the thread just to post "that's cyberpunk lol" or "you're meant to be offended" or "you must be American" then let them go ahead and show their ass imo.

Sometimes there are good intentioned people(the non trolls) on this board who read the headlines or just the OP and make a mistake of posting based on that information alone. Unjust bans/mistaken bans are what I'm trying to avoid. But I don't call the shots here so for me it's merely a suggestion.
 
OP
OP
Dmax3901

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,873
i would suggest editing that second block into your op with emphasis on "So... I guess what I would ask from people in this thread is to go beyond "this is Cyberpunk not sure what you expected". but even then you're likely to get responses that focus on the sex sells and titillation aspect.

i feel like you're mostly trying to state an opinion of why you feel like this is bad, and you want foster a discussion of why it's bad. otherwise your question is "why is cyberpunk 2077 doing this bad thing, but please don't bother to mention the obvious reasons.", which doesn't make a lot of sense since cyberpunk 2077 is probably doing it for the obvious reasons.

If this kind of material is only included for the obvious reasons, then that in and of itself is still worthy of discussion and critique. I'm not simply asking "why so much sex" but rather "why is it so imbalanced in terms of gender and sexuality and is anything it's trying to say actually of merit?" Which I think I did actually lay out in the OP but of course you're welcome to think otherwise.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,489
Then if this is specifically about cdprs history then I still find it worthwhile to consider that these type of ads seem to originate from the table top game
The source material sexualized all of its female characters and archetypes, but the in-world ads were nothing like this.
Even the Chromebooks with the pervy covers hardly ever got naughty, it's pretty much just dry descriptions of goofy '80s future tech.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
If this kind of material is only included for the obvious reasons, then that in and of itself is still worth of the discussion and critique. I'm not simply asking "why so much sex" but rather "why is it so imbalanced in terms of gender and sexuality and is anything it's trying to say actually of merit?" Which I think I did actually lay out in the OP but of course you're welcome to think otherwise.
Both of these questions are impossible to answer before the game releases. Your guess is as good as anyone's. Based on CDPR's previous work I'm going to guess it probably is imbalanced in favor of the straight male gaze but I can't say that for sure without experiencing the game myself.

Also whether or not it's imbalanced and whether or not they do anything meaningful with the imagery are two very separate things.
 
OP
OP
Dmax3901

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,873
Sometimes there are good intentioned people(the non trolls) on this board who read the headlines or just the OP and make a mistake of posting based on that information alone. Unjust bans/mistaken bans are what I'm trying to avoid. But I don't call the shots here so for me it's merely a suggestion.
A fair point, I've updated the OP.
 

Ovvv

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jan 11, 2019
10,030
User Banned (1 month): Ignoring staff post, trolling
Whatever you do, DON'T go to Japan's red light district, OP.
 

-COOLIO-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,125
If this kind of material is only included for the obvious reasons, then that in and of itself is still worth of the discussion and critique. I'm not simply asking "why so much sex" but rather "why is it so imbalanced in terms of gender and sexuality and is anything it's trying to say actually of merit?" Which I think I did actually lay out in the OP but of course you're welcome to think otherwise.

like i said, it's absolutely open to critique, but then i'd once again suggest making your op a critique instead of an open question.

if you're sincerely asking the question of why is sexuality in cyberpunk 2077 so skewered toward titillating hetero men, then i can confidently answer that for you. it's the same reason that sexuality is skewered toward titillating hetero men in most movies, tv, music, social media, and about half of books. we're easily coaxed into exchanging attention for titillation.
 

Retromess

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Nov 9, 2017
2,039
This shit sucks.

I really want to be excited for this game, since I never could get into the Witcher series because I don't like fantasy settings. I love Cyberpunk settings, even if it's just window dressing. I'm a sucker for the neon and colors and robot limbs and stuff like that.

But maaaaaaan this game's marketing and the more I see of it it's like they're actively trying to dissuade me from buying.
 
OP
OP
Dmax3901

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,873
like i said, it's absolutely open to critique, but then i'd once again suggest making your op a critique instead of an open question.

if you're sincerely asking the question of why is sexuality in cyberpunk 2077 so skewered toward titillating hetero men, then i can confidently answer that for you. it's the same reason that sexuality is skewered toward titillating hetero men in most movies, tv, music, social media, and about half of books. we're easily coaxed into exchanging attention for titillation.
I think you misunderstand the purpose of critique. It's not about finding an answer and then being like ok another case solved. It's about actively thinking about the media you consume, don't just accept it because it's normal, a trope, expected. This shit is harmful in the real world and just copy/pasting it into a fictional world without saying anything of real value is not something that should be swept aside by saying things like "cyberpunk has always been like this" or "its comes from the source material" or, in your case, "men like boobs what are you gonna do".
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,111
Los Angeles, CA
Hmm. I think a discussion should be had about what aspects of the cyberpunk genre should be revisited and updated to better reflect what the world actually would be like, as opposed to what the originators of the genre envisioned in their narrow bubble back when the foundations of the genre were conceived.

Like, we've allowed the fantasy genre to grow, evolve, and modernize, and become more inclusive and cognizant of the audiences consuming the material, so what makes the cyberpunk genre immune to those changes? You look at modern fantasy, and you'll find worlds populated by characters of all ethnicities, sexual orientations, gender identities, and everything in between, on top of the orcs, dragons, elves, dwarves, and other staples of the genre.

I love the cyberpunk genre. It's one of my favorite genres, along with fantasy and horror and sci-fi, etc.

I'm sorry, but using the defense of *adjusts glasses* "well, the Cyberpunk tabletop RPG was even worse, so CD Projekt Red could have included that stuff, but they didn't!" isn't really the gotcha, end all argument it seems to be. Like, so what if the source material made back in the 80's and 90's was questionable too. This is a new project, from a current era development studio, and nothing, absolutely nothing, was stopping them from revisiting that source material and revising it to be more socially aware. It's not like various marginalized groups haven't been making their voices and concerns heard over the past few decades.

Obviously, the game isn't out, but CD Projekt Red doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to how they handle ethnicity and women in terms of representation, so I don't have confidence that anything has changed with Cyberpunk 2077. It's one of the things that I'm concerned about.

This is a piece of entertainment media at the end of the day. Cyberpunk isn't real. It's not history. It's not the future. The point here is that it's a piece of entertainment media releasing in the year 2020, and the gaming landscape is made up of millions of individuals from all walks of life, and as such, I feel like it's a responsibility of game developers to be very, very cognizant of the material they are releasing in our very real world, and messages and depictions of women and other marginalized groups. Women are sick and tired of the shitty representation they receive in gaming. The LGBTQ community are sick and tired of the shitty representation they receive in gaming. People of color are sick and tired of the shitty representation they receive in gaming. Yet we're continuously being asked to just "suck it up," and spend our money on experiences that repeatedly underserve our respective communities with embarrassing, offensive, intolerant, and ignorant portrayals and representation. We're being asked to constantly compromise our love of gaming, and our desire to healthily voice our concerns about how we're represented in those games. "Just don't buy it," doesn't really fly as a rebuttal when the vast majority of games feature just shit representation of our communities. You're essentially asking us to walk away from gaming, because so few experiences give us the same care and consideration that it does, say, straight white males.

Voicing our concerns, and not having them shut down and dismissed because a large group of people are completely okay with shitty representation of people that don't look like them, isn't progress. It's causing stagnation in an industry that is global, and universal. Gaming isn't just for you, and it's not just for me. It's for everyone.

I can only speak for myself, but there's hardly a game out there that I don't have to take the additional step of wrestling with how excited I am for the game, and how disappointed I am with shitty representation. Like Final Fantasy VII Remake. I played the original FFVII when it released on PS1 back when I was 17 years old. Even back then, I was embarrassed by the portrayal of Barret, the first black protagonist in a Final Fantasy game (out of the ones I had played). But I was hyped for FFVII, and just had to kind of suck it up to play this really cool game.

Then the Final Fantasy VII Remake was announced, and a part of me foolishly hoped that maybe the English version of the game would revisit Barret, and perhaps represent him in a way that was more in line with the Japanese version of Barret, which was a much better portrayal of the character. But no, we got the same, angry black man trope from 1997. It was still my choice to purchase the FFVII Remake, and I did, because despite it all, I really liked FFVII. As a black man, I've just gotten used to having to suck through my teeth my distaste for the portrayal of black people in gaming, or else I wouldn't really be playing much of any games.

Then there's something like Hogwarts Legacy. I refuse to purchase that game, because I refuse to empower JK Rowling any further in terms of her spreading her anti-transgender rhetoric. I'm a big HP fan (well, I used to be, before Rowling's disgusting shittiness soured the entire series for me), but I just can't give her my money. I refuse to. I don't want to give her voice any more power with my $70. I'd rather donate it to a cause that is supporting the rights of transgender people.

I think it's wonderful to call out this type of shit as often, and as loudly as we can. CD Projekt had an opportunity to re-envision the world of Cyberpunk, and take some mature, and intelligent steps to not only retain the core themes of Cyberpunk, but to do it in a truly modern and progressive way. I don't blame a single person turned off by what they're seeing thus far with the game. Of course the game isn't out, and we don't have full context of everything in the game, but is that our fault? That's on CD Projekt and how they chose to represent their game in their various promotional materials, and we're completely valid in reading into that what they give us.

But I have to ask this: Do we really want women, people of color, the LGBTQ community, and other marginalized groups to just walk away from gaming? Because this shitty representation is definitely having an effect on many of us in the gaming community. Many of us that are just so tired of having to shake our heads in disappointment, or pass up on a promising looking title because the creators have piss poor representation, and seem apathetic at best, when those concerns are brought to light. Do we really want gaming to continue to be gate-kept by people because, as a whole, we so easily dismiss the concerns of the marginalized, in particular when the game being criticized is one we're all excited or hyped about? Is that what we want gaming to represent? Driving men and women away from an industry and pastime that they're passionate and excited about participating in because the cool looking big games that everyone is talking about consistently reminds them that they're something to be mocked, stereotyped, objectified, or disrespected? Because that's some bullshit.

Honestly, when it comes to things like this, that's ultimately my takeaway. "Just deal with it or stop gaming altogether, because this is 'just the way it is.'" Being repeatedly asked to compromise my passion for games, and my desire to not put up with seeing my people (and women, and other marginalized groups) being portrayed poorly is both frustrating and exhausting.

Cyberpunk isn't a genre that is incapable of growing and evolving beyond its dated roots. If other genres have done it, nothing is stopping it from doing the same. And what better opportunity to push the genre forward than a massive, high profile game that will be played by millions of gamers across PC, Xbox ONE, Xbox Series X, Xbox Series S, PlayStation 4, and PlayStation 5? The jury is still out on how CD Projekt tackles the genre, but I don't blame people's skepticism given their track record. Especially considering what we've been shown so far.
 
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-COOLIO-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,125
I think you misunderstand the purpose of critique. It's not about finding an answer and then being like ok another case solved. It's about actively thinking about the media you consume, don't just accept it because it's normal, a trope, expected. This shit is harmful in the real world and just copy/pasting it into a fictional world without saying anything of real value is not something that should be swept aside by saying things like "cyberpunk has always been like this" or "its comes from the source material" or, in your case, "men like boobs what are you gonna do".
this post is exactly what your op should have been instead, this is a critique instead of an open ended question.

it's even an interesting one at that that even when making use of a largely defined genre, we may want to trade the presence of seemingly core elements for inclusion. you could have a pretty good discussions around that thesis.
 

Catshade

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,198
It's telling that only Spielberg has the forethought to portray personalized ads in a dystopia (I don't know if it's already present in Phil K Dick's original story). Imagine in 2077 you're a male character dating numerous other men, and you get different set of ads compared to your other character, a female who's not interested in sexuality at all. That's Cyberpunk AF, and it's weird that the marketing executives in CP 2077 world are still thinking conventionally.
 
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Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Hypersexualized everything is very cyberpunk.

Yeah. I don't mean any offense to the OP. But this seems odd since hyper-sexualized everything is like, cyberpunk in a nutshell, and as other people have pointed out, there are more male and even sexually ambiguous sexualization imagery than in any other game I can think of. I can't remember the last video game that showed males as sexualized as some of these.

I guess my question is, Dmax3901 bring this up and say that it's harmful unless the game frames it as bad, but like, I'm wondering how that could be satisfied? Because you are showing the ads, okay cool. But you're saying they can only good with the right context or framing. But...you've presented them devoid of context. You've just said they're bad for existing, but by other posts you are making here it seems like you're saying their bad if they aren't being framed as bad. Which is it? I have read your OP and I don't understand what you are trying to communicate. If anything it sounds like you are complaining about the advertising. But I don't even know what you are wanting the advertising to do I guess?

EDIT: and worse, all you do in your follow up post is just reiterate what you are NOT doing, but...you don't clarify what you are doing.

Like, maybe I am dense, but in my best good faith effort here, all I can really eek out is you saying "CDPR don't have a good track record of this stuff, so them showing this stuff means they're handling it badly, even though we don't know how they will handle it. They just have in the past so this is just evidence they will again, because they're handling it at all." which seems like jumping the gun to me. That seems like a very incomplete conclusion.
 
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Zelda

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,079
User Banned (3 Months): Misogynistic trolling. Previously banned for racist trolling.
Kim Kardashian and WAP did this.
 
OP
OP
Dmax3901

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,873
this post is exactly what your op should have been instead, this is a critique instead of an open ended question.

it's even an interesting one at that that even when making use of a largely defined genre, we may want to trade the presence of seemingly core elements for inclusion. you could have a pretty good discussions around that thesis.
There's a reason threads don't end after the OP. Your post is somewhat condescending but thanks I guess for sticking around long enough to eke a good point out of me.

I don't love the insinuation that if I just wrote a better OP the thread would've gone smoother, I highly doubt it in fact. I'm sure most if not all of the people who got banned knew exactly what they were doing.

Hmm. I think a discussion should be had about what aspects of the cyberpunk genre should be revisited and updated to better reflect what the world actually would be like, as opposed to what the originators of the genre envisioned in their narrow bubble back when the foundations of the genre were conceived.

Like, we've allowed the fantasy genre to grow, evolve, and modernize, and become more inclusive and cognizant of the audiences consuming the material, so what makes the cyberpunk genre immune to those changes? You look at modern fantasy, and you'll find worlds populated by characters of all ethnicities, sexual orientations, gender identities, and everything in between, on top of the orcs, dragons, elves, dwarves, and other staples of the genre.

I love the cyberpunk genre. It's one of my favorite genres, along with fantasy and horror and sci-fi, etc.

I'm sorry, but using the defense of *adjusts glasses* "well, the Cyberpunk tabletop RPG was even worse, so CD Projekt Red could have included that stuff, but they didn't!" isn't really the gotcha, end all argument it seems to be. Like, so what if the source material made back in the 80's and 90's was questionable too. This is a new project, from a current era development studio, and nothing, absolutely nothing, was stopping them from revisiting that source material and revising it to be more socially aware. It's not like various marginalized groups haven't been making their voices and concerns heard over the past few decades.

Obviously, the game isn't out, but CD Projekt Red doesn't exactly have the best track record when it comes to how they handle ethnicity and women in terms of representation, so I don't have confidence that anything has changed with Cyberpunk 2077. It's one of the things that I'm concerned about.

This is a piece of entertainment media at the end of the day. Cyberpunk isn't real. It's not history. It's not the future. The point here is that it's a piece of entertainment media releasing in the year 2020, and the gaming landscape is made up of millions of individuals from all walks of life, and as such, I feel like it's a responsibility of game developers to be very, very cognizant of the material they are releasing in our very real world, and messages and depictions of women and other marginalized groups. Women are sick and tired of the shitty representation they receive in gaming. The LGBTQ community are sick and tired of the shitty representation they receive in gaming. People of color are sick and tired of the shitty representation they receive in gaming. Yet we're continuously being asked to just "suck it up," and spend our money on experiences that repeatedly underserve our respective communities with embarrassing, offensive, intolerant, and ignorant portrayals and representation. We're being asked to constantly compromise our love of gaming, and our desire to healthily voice our concerns about how we're represented in those games. "Just don't buy it," doesn't really fly as a rebuttal when the vast majority of games feature just shit representation of our communities. You're essentially asking us to walk away from gaming, because so few experiences give us the same care and consideration that it does, say, straight white males.

Voicing our concerns, and not having them shut down and dismissed because a large group of people are completely okay with shitty representation of people that don't look like them, isn't progress. It's causing stagnation in an industry that is global, and universal. Gaming isn't just for you, and it's not just for me. It's for everyone.

I can only speak for myself, but there's hardly a game out there that I don't have to take the additional step of wrestling with how excited I am for the game, and how disappointed I am with shitty representation. Like Final Fantasy VII Remake. I played the original FFVII when it released on PS1 back when I was 17 years old. Even back then, I was embarrassed by the portrayal of Barret, the first black protagonist in a Final Fantasy game (out of the ones I had played). But I was hyped for FFVII, and just had to kind of suck it up to play this really cool game.

Then the Final Fantasy VII Remake was announced, and a part of me foolishly hoped that maybe the English version of the game would revisit Barret, and perhaps represent him in a way that was more in line with the Japanese version of Barret, which was a much better portrayal of the character. But no, we got the same, angry black man trope from 1997. It was still my choice to purchase the FFVII Remake, and I did, because despite it all, I really liked FFVII. As a black man, I've just gotten used to having to suck through my teeth my distaste for the portrayal of black people in gaming, or else I wouldn't really be playing much of any games.

Then there's something like Hogwarts Legacy. I refuse to purchase that game, because I refuse to empower JK Rowling any further in terms of her spreading her anti-transgender rhetoric. I'm a big HP fan (well, I used to be, before Rowling's disgusting shittiness soured the entire series for me), but I just can't give her my money. I refuse to. I don't want to give her voice any more power with my $70. I'd rather donate it to a cause that is supporting the rights of transgender people.

I think it's wonderful to call out this type of shit as often, and as loudly as we can. CD Projekt had an opportunity to re-envision the world of Cyberpunk, and take some mature, and intelligent steps to not only retain the core themes of Cyberpunk, but to do it in a truly modern and progressive way. I don't blame a single person turned off by what they're seeing thus far with the game. Of course the game isn't out, and we don't have full context of everything in the game, but is that our fault? That's on CD Projekt and how they chose to represent their game in their various promotional materials, and we're completely valid in reading into that what they give us.

But I have to ask this: Do we really want women, people of color, the LGBTQ community, and other marginalized groups to just walk away from gaming? Because this shitty representation is definitely having an effect on many of us in the gaming community. Many of us that are just so tired of having to shake our heads in disappointment, or pass up on a promising looking title because the creators have piss poor representation, and seem apathetic at best, when those concerns are brought to light. Do we really want gaming to continue to be gate-kept by people because, as a whole, we so easily dismiss the concerns of the marginalized, in particular when the game being criticized is one we're all excited or hyped about? Is that what we want gaming to represent? Driving men and women away from an industry and pastime that they're passionate and excited about participating in because the cool looking big games that everyone is talking about consistently reminds them that they're something to be mocked, stereotyped, objectified, or disrespected? Because that's some bullshit.

Honestly, when it comes to things like this, that's ultimately my takeaway. "Just deal with it or stop gaming altogether, because this is 'just the way it is.'" Being repeatedly asked to compromise my passion for games, and my desire to not put up with seeing my people (and women, and other marginalized groups) being portrayed poorly is both frustrating and exhausting.

Cyberpunk isn't a genre that is incapable of growing and evolving beyond its dated roots. If other genres have done it, nothing is stopping it from doing the same. And what better opportunity to push the genre forward than a massive, high profile game that will be played by millions of gamers across PC, Xbox ONE, Xbox Series X, Xbox Series S, PlayStation 4, and PlayStation 5? The jury is still out on how CD Projekt tackles the genre, but I don't blame people's skepticism given their track record. Especially considering what we've been shown so far.

Thanks for taking the time to write such an in-depth, well-written post.
 

Goslopo

Member
Sep 9, 2020
22
I don't blame a single person turned off by what they're seeing thus far with the game. Of course the game isn't out, and we don't have full context of everything in the game, but is that our fault? That's on CD Projekt and how they chose to represent their game in their various promotional materials, and we're completely valid in reading into that what they give us.
This is a good point. I can see why they would include hypersexualization in many of their advertisements since sex sells, but without any context from the actual product it's pretty scummy and seems to devalue their work as a whole. I just hope that once the actual game releases, they at least address the hypersexualized content in game.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
7,565
Generally I'm skeptical about the game's ability to take its source material seriously, but this is definitely something to keep an eye on (I don't think we can tell if you're right yet).

It could be even worse than being there for 'edge' too. They might revel in it. i.e. the Warhammer 40K fan perception "ooh cool future"

Worst case:
0e79qtzua0d11.jpg

Yeah. It's a thin line between exploiting sexuality, and talking about exploitation of sexuality. I don't have faith that they can go beyond the surface and do the latter. That's why I am still not going to get the game for now, especially if they want to maintain that their game isn't political.

Also, is it mean-spirited of me to suggest that we ban people who come into this thread for a long enough time for them to not be able to participate in launch period discussion? It's very tiring to continually see them dismissing the concerns that some of us have. Keep them banned till end Dec or something.
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
8,035
like i said, it's absolutely open to critique, but then i'd once again suggest making your op a critique instead of an open question.

if you're sincerely asking the question of why is sexuality in cyberpunk 2077 so skewered toward titillating hetero men, then i can confidently answer that for you. it's the same reason that sexuality is skewered toward titillating hetero men in most movies, tv, music, social media, and about half of books. we're easily coaxed into exchanging attention for titillation.

This isn't true and if i'm being honest is a fairly sexist take. Women like this type of material just as much as men (look at the popularity of things like 50 shades). The truth is that most media has traditionally been dominated by men and what men want, that's why the female gaze is so prevalent. Not because guys like sexual things more than women, that's nonsense quite frankly.
 

Zelda

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,079
As long as sex sells then this type of exploitation will continue. If we want to see change then we need to vote with our wallet.
 

-COOLIO-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,125
This isn't true and if i'm being honest is a fairly sexist take. Women like this type of material just as much as men (look at the popularity of things like 50 shades). The truth is that most media has traditionally been dominated by men and what men want, that's why the female gaze is so prevalent. Not because guys like sexual things more than women, that's nonsense quite frankly.
did you mean the male gaze?

i actually agree with you, and i think media should make more of an effort to titillate women more too. i think it is getting better in that respect.
 
OP
OP
Dmax3901

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,873
Yeah. I don't mean any offense to the OP. But this seems odd since hyper-sexualized everything is like, cyberpunk in a nutshell, and as other people have pointed out, there are more male and even sexually ambiguous sexualization imagery than in any other game I can think of. I can't remember the last video game that showed males as sexualized as some of these.

I guess my question is, Dmax3901 bring this up and say that it's harmful unless the game frames it as bad, but like, I'm wondering how that could be satisfied? Because you are showing the ads, okay cool. But you're saying they can only good with the right context or framing. But...you've presented them devoid of context. You've just said they're bad for existing, but by other posts you are making here it seems like you're saying their bad if they aren't being framed as bad. Which is it? I have read your OP and I don't understand what you are trying to communicate. If anything it sounds like you are complaining about the advertising. But I don't even know what you are wanting the advertising to do I guess?

EDIT: and worse, all you do in your follow up post is just reiterate what you are NOT doing, but...you don't clarify what you are doing.

Like, maybe I am dense, but in my best good faith effort here, all I can really eek out is you saying "CDPR don't have a good track record of this stuff, so them showing this stuff means they're handling it badly, even though we don't know how they will handle it. They just have in the past so this is just evidence they will again, because they're handling it at all." which seems like jumping the gun to me. That seems like a very incomplete conclusion.
Here ya go champ:

I think you misunderstand the purpose of critique. It's not about finding an answer and then being like ok another case solved. It's about actively thinking about the media you consume, don't just accept it because it's normal, a trope, expected. This shit is harmful in the real world and just copy/pasting it into a fictional world without saying anything of real value is not something that should be swept aside by saying things like "cyberpunk has always been like this" or "its comes from the source material" or "men like boobs what are you gonna do".

I might even have more to say when the game comes out too, would that be ok with you?

Kim Kardashian and WAP did this.

This one almost slipped by me. What are you talking about? Are you aware that Cyberpunk 2077 is a fictional video game created by people and Kim Kardashian, Cardi B and Mel Thee Stallion are real human women?
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,537
Other folks have already made the point that treating sex and sexuality as overtly commercialized products for capitalist consumption is apparently supposed to be an intentional part of this specific take on a cyberpunk setting, particularly since Night City is not meant to be a functional (let alone ideal) model for inclusivity and progressive sex positivity, which goes along with the cynical, crass and messed up aspects of how corporations (real and fictional) tend to take advantage of sexualization in order to sell you something.

However, I can still agree that it's legitimate to question whether these ads are the best way of portraying such a hypesexualized future in a video game. What's more, whether or not the game's main story and side quests are insightful and tactful enough to deal with the situation is still completely up in the air. Let alone whether players across the board will feel comfortable during their experience, especially when the marketing for the game itself also seems to be emphasizing these in-game sexual characteristics for its own commercial benefit. Which can be both meta and hypocritical/ironic, depending on how you wish to frame it.
 

-COOLIO-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,125
There's a reason threads don't end after the OP. Your post is somewhat condescending but thanks I guess for sticking around long enough to eke a good point out of me.

I don't love the insinuation that if I just wrote a better OP the thread would've gone smoother, I highly doubt it in fact. I'm sure most if not all of the people who got banned knew exactly what they were doing.

rereading it, i can definitely see how the tone may have seemed condescending. my bad there. but i really think the op might be worth updating to get the discussion you're looking for. another poster above me just dropped the sex sells point again, which isn't the kind of response you're looking for
 
OP
OP
Dmax3901

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,873
rereading it, i can definitely see how the tone may have seemed condescending. my bad there. but i really think the op might be worth updating to get the discussion you're looking for. another poster above me just dropped the sex sells point again, which isn't the kind of response you're looking for
I have updated the OP to some extent, but I'm not gonna keep updating it every time a salient point is made just to avoid people posting surface-level takes as if they're revolutionary. It's on them to read, think, then post.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
8,967
I don't think you're supposed to agree with the world where these ads take place, world's like this hold a twisted mirror up to the world you live in and show you where things end up for worse or better. This is a capitalist world if guys like Trump kept on getting into power. It's a parody of capitalism and those adverts are just cranked up adverts from the 50s (onwards) beyond what were used to, they take it beyond what society has seen.

We may disagree, with it but I don't think we're supposed to agree, I don't think you're supposed want to live in this cyberpunk future. It's a window into another world and a cautionary tale on capitalism gone amok. Sure the prosthetics are cool, gender doesn't seem to be as rigid, but everything else sucks.
 

-COOLIO-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,125
I have updated the OP to some extent, but I'm not gonna keep updating it every time a salient point is made just to avoid people posting surface-level takes as if they're revolutionary. It's on them to read, think, then post.
ok but the poster above this post just dropped the sex sells angle again.

anyway, fair enough, it's your thread. do your thang 🤷‍♂️
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Here ya go champ:



I might even have more to say when the game comes out too, would that be ok with you?

" This shit is harmful in the real world and just copy/pasting it into a fictional world without saying anything of real value "

Umm. So you are doing what I said you were doing.

You are claiming they are not saying anything of real value. How do you know that? You're taking imagery from some trailers designed to sell the aesthetic and world of this game.

I am not dismissing this as "men like boobs what are ya gonna do."

I'm saying, you are saying it's harmful without the game saying anything about it...but you haven't even played the game. NO ONE here knows how they will handle it. The trailers that exist right now are simply trying to sell a world. In this case it is trying to sell a cyberpunk world.

When people are telling you "um yeah that's cyperpunk" they are not saying "don't critique cyberpunk, cyberpunk is fine how it is." Like. Lol no. They are saying "Cyberpunk is about a hyper-capitalistic society that has run to it's natural, awful extreme. In order to portray this, Cyberpunk features exaggerated and exploitative advertising and other things to portray this world." Cyberpunk IS a commentary on capitalism, by saying, hey look this is where it leads.

Now, CDPR may bungle it, sure, but like, what you are doing right now is criticizing them...for making cyberpunk, which seems really silly. You aren't criticizing how they are handling it. You aren't saying anything at all it feels like? You just keep talking ABOUT what you are saying, which is really vague.

I'm not trying to be dismissive here. I am trying to engage you in good faith. But I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to accomplish.

You are claiming that CDPR are just putting this stuff into the game without saying anything about it, which you do not know to be true.

If anything you have a problem with the marketing, but I mean, the purpose of trailers like this is to sell a setting, not comment on it. That is the game's job. The trailer is just there to sell the setting because if you don't like that, you're not going to engage with the game. I'm not sure how you would address it. And yes, I do think that's fair to ask you, because otherwise what you are doing is not critique, it is just complaining. And I think you'd have a lot more people convinced if you wanted to engage in critique that is constructive. And I'm sorry so far, I am not understanding what exactly you want here.

I get it's not a perfect world, but it's presented as a world that is far more 'free' than ours, people can run amok with high tech weapons, alter their bodies to the point where they're barely human and megacorps run everything, and yet they're still mostly making ads for horny boys?

Okay what?

That...this is the point of cyperpunk.

You...you don't understand it at all.

The point of cyberpunk is to say, no matter how far society advances, there will always be shitty people, and systems like capitalism will always exist to exploit human nature.

The point of cyberpunk is to say that technology will not save us from these things. If anything, it'll just make them possible in new ways. And it will always be exploited for power and gain.

Why would you think they would stop making these ads?
 
Last edited:
Oct 26, 2017
7,323
Other folks have already made the point that treating sex and sexuality as overtly commercialized products for capitalist consumption is apparently supposed to be an intentional part of this specific take on a cyberpunk setting, particularly since Night City is not meant to be a functional (let alone ideal) model for inclusivity and progressive sex positivity, which goes along with the cynical, crass and messed up aspects of how corporations (real and fictional) tend to take advantage of sexualization in order to sell you something.

However, I can still agree that it's legitimate to question whether these ads are the best way of portraying such a hypesexualized future in a video game. What's more, whether or not the game's main story and side quests are insightful and tactful enough to deal with the situation is still completely up in the air. Let alone whether players across the board will feel comfortable during their experience, especially when the marketing for the game itself also seems to be emphasizing these in-game sexual characteristics for its own commercial benefit. Which can be both meta and hypocritical/ironic, depending on how you wish to frame it.

The thing with dystopian stories is that they are by definition hypocritical. "Oh my, look at all the sex, violence and social misery, oh the depravity of it all!"

While at the same time going "Society has broken down, you could do some awesome depraved shit here and noone is going to stop you, enjoy!"

CDPR are definitely trying to have their cheesecake and eat it too. It remains to be seen if there's genuine commentary in there or if it's just a way to sell the game.
 
OP
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Dmax3901

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,873
" This shit is harmful in the real world and just copy/pasting it into a fictional world without saying anything of real value "

Umm. So you are doing what I said you were doing.

You are claiming they are not saying anything of real value. How do you know that? You're taking imagery from some trailers designed to sell the aesthetic and world of this game.

I am not dismissing this as "men like boobs what are ya gonna do."

I'm saying, you are saying it's harmful without the game saying anything about it...but you haven't even played the game. NO ONE here knows how they will handle it. The trailers that exist right now are simply trying to sell a world. In this case it is trying to sell a cyberpunk world.

When people are telling you "um yeah that's cyperpunk" they are not saying "don't critique cyberpunk, cyberpunk is fine how it is." Like. Lol no. They are saying "Cyberpunk is about a hyper-capitalistic society that has run to it's natural, awful extreme. In order to portray this, Cyberpunk features exaggerated and exploitative advertising and other things to portray this world." Cyberpunk IS a commentary on capitalism, by saying, hey look this is where it leads.

Now, CDPR may bungle it, sure, but like, what you are doing right now is criticizing them...for making cyberpunk, which seems really silly. You aren't criticizing how they are handling it. You aren't saying anything at all it feels like? You just keep talking ABOUT what you are saying, which is really vague.

I'm not trying to be dismissive here. I am trying to engage you in good faith. But I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to accomplish.

You are claiming that CDPR are just putting this stuff into the game without saying anything about it, which you do not know to be true.

If anything you have a problem with the marketing, but I mean, the purpose of trailers like this is to sell a setting, not comment on it. That is the game's job. The trailer is just there to sell the setting because if you don't like that, you're not going to engage with the game. I'm not sure how you would address it. And yes, I do think that's fair to ask you, because otherwise what you are doing is not critique, it is just complaining. And I think you'd have a lot more people convinced if you wanted to engage in critique that is constructive. And I'm sorry so far, I am not understanding what exactly you want here.
Are you reading all the posts in this thread or just mine? Plenty of people have made good points on various sides of the discussion.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,111
Los Angeles, CA
There's a reason threads don't end after the OP. Your post is somewhat condescending but thanks I guess for sticking around long enough to eke a good point out of me.

I don't love the insinuation that if I just wrote a better OP the thread would've gone smoother, I highly doubt it in fact. I'm sure most if not all of the people who got banned knew exactly what they were doing.



Thanks for taking the time to write such an in-depth, well-written post.

Thank you! I didn't mean to make such a long post, but representation is something that I'm incredibly passionate about, and as a person of color who works in the gaming industry, my hope is that one day I may be in a position where my voice, and voices like mine, will actually matter in terms of representation in games.

This is a good point. I can see why they would include hypersexualization in many of their advertisements since sex sells, but without any context from the actual product it's pretty scummy and seems to devalue their work as a whole. I just hope that once the actual game releases, they at least address the hypersexualized content in game.

Yeah, it's definitely slightly difficult to fully judge the game, in that it isn't released yet, but I just don't have high hopes that they'll address any of this shit with any kind of meaningful purpose or nuance. I'm hoping that other prominent characters of color and gender are represented better than what they've shown. I don't want my player character to be the only cool black woman in the game, for example. And I'm not a fan of what I've seen of the gangs so far, personally.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Are you reading all the posts in this thread or just mine? Plenty of people have made good points on various sides of the discussion.

I am trying to follow along, I'm just pointing out that your own points are extremely lacking.

With Figboy's post, like, it's a good post and I appreciate the perspective it brings, and I appreciate how it addresses a lot of dismissive comments. It does a good job of that. But I don't feel it supports whatever concern you are trying to bring up, because I still have yet to see what exactly you want here. Are you saying you want more varied sexual advertisement? Because it seems you have said you do not want that. But like...if cyberpunk wants to be true to the entire point of the genre, then it is absolutely going to include that sort of thing.

EDIT: See look what Figboy does in this post. It acknowledges his limited knowledge, raises concerns based on CDPR's past, and notes that some of the things are worrying. I feel like when I read this post I understand his perspective and I go, yeah I agree. It's not just saying oh CDPR is bad for making a cyberpunk game (not to speak over you Figboy if you do find that problematic).

Yeah, it's definitely slightly difficult to fully judge the game, in that it isn't released yet, but I just don't have high hopes that they'll address any of this shit with any kind of meaningful purpose or nuance. I'm hoping that other prominent characters of color and gender are represented better than what they've shown. I don't want my player character to be the only cool black woman in the game, for example. And I'm not a fan of what I've seen of the gangs so far, personally.
 

XboxNexus

Banned
Jul 25, 2020
3
User Banned (Permanent): Troll account
well that's too bad but you know the old argument Sex Sells !
 

Feign

Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,504
<-- Coast
It's telling that only Spielberg has the forethought to portray personalized ads in a dystopia (I don't know if it's already present in Phil K Dick's original story). Imagine in 2077 you're a male character dating numerous other men, and you get different set of ads compared to your other character, a female who's not interested in sexuality at all. That's Cyberpunk AF, and it's weird that the marketing executives in CP 2077 world are still thinking conventionally.

Especially when that's already happening today, just not in physical media. If you can swap out body parts, you should be able to make it so two people looking at a screen can see two completely different things. It would be especially interesting if they used the character you created in these ads. I think that more than anything would do a great job at living up to a corporate nightmare. Essentially presenting all of these different versions of yourself, maybe in settings you know you could never afford and constantly have you wanting for more instead of being happy with what you have. You could even find ads from smaller companies who couldn't afford your exact data, just your looks, and find your character in a poster that's distinctly wrong and provoke an unsettling response. There's so much you could do in an interactive media like video games to show the horror and oppression a corporate society might throw at you.
 

Thagirion

Member
Dec 6, 2018
493
Played cyber punk or consumed other cyberpunk material? That's how the world build is, because it's a criticism of how our world is. Everything is even more decadent everything more extreme in juxtaposition.

I find strange someone criticize this as this is to show how we are decayed
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
You could even find ads from smaller companies who couldn't afford your exact data, just your looks, and find your character in a poster that's distinctly wrong and provoke an unsettling response.

Man this would be really cool although I feel like it would take a ton of work to implement into a video game. Would also work into story stuff quite well too if they could.
 

Thagirion

Member
Dec 6, 2018
493
Hi, I'm not an idiot. I understand 'the commentary', I just don't think it's saying anything as nuanced or original as you seem to think it is. What does homelessness and crime have to do with commentating on the sexualisation in this world?
As it's a dystopian mirror of our society, It has everything to do with the sexualization, it's how the people are sedated, and it happens now, shiny new things, shiny new toys, shallow discussions mask reality, and sex is one of the primal one people are obsessed trying to mentally pass by to cope we their own existence.

just look how bands had it harder to breakthrough and even mainstream musicians had more political songs and now is easier to be discovered and now there's less political songs.
On de sex side, trans related porn went through the roof from 2014 to today, yet it's a churned social group
 
OP
OP
Dmax3901

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,873
I am trying to follow along, I'm just pointing out that your own points are extremely lacking.

With Figboy's post, like, it's a good post and I appreciate the perspective it brings, and I appreciate how it addresses a lot of dismissive comments. It does a good job of that. But I don't feel it supports whatever concern you are trying to bring up, because I still have yet to see what exactly you want here. Are you saying you want more varied sexual advertisement? Because it seems you have said you do not want that. But like...if cyberpunk wants to be true to the entire point of the genre, then it is absolutely going to include that sort of thing.

EDIT: See look what Figboy does in this post. It acknowledges his limited knowledge, raises concerns based on CDPR's past, and notes that some of the things are worrying. I feel like when I read this post I understand his perspective and I go, yeah I agree. It's not just saying oh CDPR is bad for making a cyberpunk game (not to speak over you Figboy if you do find that problematic).

I don't really know why you're fixating on me and my posts so much. I was interested in kicking off a discussion on the topic specifically because I don't have all the answers, I don't necessarily think I need to make consistently bulletproof points throughout the thread.

That said, I personally would love to see way more diversity in these ads. Normalise LGBTQ+ relationships, bodies and sexuality. That said, as a straight cis man, I'm also not entirely sure that 'sexualise everyone!' is the right way to go either.

Especially when that's already happening today, just not in physical media. If you can swap out body parts, you should be able to make it so two people looking at a screen can see two completely different things. It would be especially interesting if they used the character you created in these ads. I think that more than anything would do a great job at living up to a corporate nightmare. Essentially presenting all of these different versions of yourself, maybe in settings you know you could never afford and constantly have you wanting for more instead of being happy with what you have. You could even find ads from smaller companies who couldn't afford your exact data, just your looks, and find your character in a poster that's distinctly wrong and provoke an unsettling response. There's so much you could do in an interactive media like video games to show the horror and oppression a corporate society might throw at you.
This game is primed for this sort of thing too with the different origin stories. A nomad could see different ads to a corp for example. You could even have Keanu's character in your head like "yo wtf are you doing to get fucked up ads like this".

On de sex side, trans related porn went through the roof from 2014 to today, yet it's a churned social group

Precisely why ads like the Mix it Up and Watson Whore ones are so problematic. It just feeds that exact same beast. I suppose it's possible the game itself will successfully comment on the fetishisation of trans women but I highly doubt it.
 

eso76

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2017
8,115
CP2077's world doesn't look like the ideal society where misogyny, homophobia and racism are eradicated and people live in harmony now though.

Those ads are meant to look offensive and the sign of a degraded society, not meant as fanservice.

Gay interaction to be featured in those?
Can you imagine how that would be perceived in that context?
It would look like CDPR is trying to convey how far morality has gone down the shithole by showing us they even have ads openly showing gay interaction!

it would immediately give it a negative connotation, so hopefully representation is to be found elsewhere in the story.

I agree though that hypersexualised men wouldn't have gone against the tone they are trying to set and should have been there.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
I don't really know why you're fixating on me and my posts so much. I was interested in kicking off a discussion on the topic specifically because I don't have all the answers, I don't necessarily think I need to make consistently bulletproof points throughout the thread.

That said, I personally would love to see way more diversity in these ads. Normalise LGBTQ+ relationships, bodies and sexuality. That said, as a straight cis man, I'm also not entirely sure that 'sexualise everyone!' is the right way to go either.

I guess it just seems odd to me because typically when someone kicks off a discussion they have a point that they want to communicate, and I just can't really figure out what yours is.

In addition, I think maybe you should pay attention to those last two opposing points you just made.

On one hand you want them to be diverse. But on the other hand you don't like the idea of sexualizing everyone for money.

Well, yeah. Because the standard doesn't really make a ton of sense. The entire point of cyberpunk is the depths capitalism goes down to. It will go down to whatever exploitation of whatever human need or desire there is and profit from that. So to me you saying you want more diversity sounds a lot like "more women CEOs!" kind of thing. Like...what? The whole point is that it's bad. It's all bad. The whole system is bad. The whole point is this world is depraved. The whole point is that no amount of technology will save us but instead by being created within a capitalist system will thus be created in order to further that system.

I don't think YOU know what you want here. And I guess it seems to me that you are upset that others in this thread have been somewhat dismissive, but while I dislike the one liners that Resetera loves to do, I feel like you didn't give anyone much to go on. You keep saying "well there's some other good posts in this thread." But they are all just kind of one offs. It's a meandering discussion that doesn't know what it's about.

Like, that should cause you to reflect. Because to me, my honest assessment here is that you don't know what problem there is that you might have with this. It seems like you saw a lack of representation and so you had an emotional response to that of "I want there to be diversity." Which is a good thing to want, but then it strikes you that that is a weird thing to want when we are literally talking about sexual exploitation for money. So now you're in a proverbial no-man's-land. And instead of examining that you've done that, you just kind of want to rely on other people to make points for you. The points you do make just...don't go anywhere. You don't know what you're asking for. And as a result you keep getting reactions because you have given no one a point to contend with.

You say I'm free to disagree with you but I don't know what the fuck you want me to disagree with.
 

Feign

Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,504
<-- Coast
Man this would be really cool although I feel like it would take a ton of work to implement into a video game. Would also work into story stuff quite well too if they could.

You'd just need to make it obviously smaller or placed somewhere there's not a lot of traffic and have either the player character or someone near you comment on it like, "You have to give them credit for trying. Not everyone can say they paid to get it wrong." Because even if the character is used to it, the player might not be.

Not necessarily cyberpunk, but a game with that could go further:

It could lead to some fun with systems breaking down and seeing things on ads in big billboards placing their characters in disturbing situations with the normal branding and causing a mass panic in the general public, not realizing the extent of how the technology could be abused. A corporate future is based on selling illusion as reality. It just takes a crack for everything to start falling apart. There's a lot of potential to make a genuinely disturbing experience that's new while sticking to genre conventions. You'd only need so many templates for asset swaps and filters to achieve it. It probably wouldn't be as stylized as the games current ads, but I think it would be a lot more personally emotive. Which is the exact point really. Stripping art of a human touch to sell.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
You'd just need to make it obviously smaller or placed somewhere there's not a lot of traffic and have either the player character or someone near you comment on it like, "You have to give them credit for trying. Not everyone can say they paid to get it wrong." Because even if the character is used to it, the player might not be.

Not necessarily cyberpunk, but a game with that could go further:

It could lead to some fun with systems breaking down and seeing things on ads in big billboards placing their characters in disturbing situations with the normal branding and causing a mass panic in the general public, not realizing the extent of how the technology could be abused. A corporate future is based on selling illusion as reality. It just takes a crack for everything to start falling apart. There's a lot of potential to make a genuinely disturbing experience that's new while sticking to genre conventions. You'd only need so many templates for asset swaps and filters to achieve it. It probably wouldn't be as stylized as the games current ads, but I think it would be a lot more personally emotive. Which is the exact point really. Stripping art of a human touch to sell.

It sounds like a lot of work but I do really like that idea.

It would be even more interesting if say you started the player in a higher level of the town, where ads perfectly work to you, and everything seems nice and even if you as a player know that this ain't so right, it's easy to slip into it. But as the game progresses and the story takes you lower into the city, the cracks start to form and it starts to affect you more directly in more negative ways. I think that could be really powerful.
 

ConVito

Member
Oct 16, 2018
3,090
The sheer number of surface-level takes in this thread is kind of astonishing.

But then, I expect it at this point. People still don't respect women, even here. I don't even have much else to say about it because, really, when it's all boiled down, it's really that simple. Thanks a lot for reminding me how little I, and people like myself, matter to the general populace.

I'm so very tired.
I'm sorry you have to go through this in a space that's supposed to be inclusive. It's times like this where I kind of wish Era's moderation was more strict than it is.

I'm a straight cis white man, so I can't imagine what it's like to hear stuff like this that's indirectly (and directly) targeted at people like me.

But in the interest of staying on topic, I hate how even when all genders are supposedly "equally objectified," it's always women and feminine-presenting people being treated as sex objects while the majority of men/masculine figures are maybe shirtless at most and still focus on the male power fantasy. (And yes, I've seen the pictures in the thread showing obviously objectifying pictures of men. That's why I said "the majority.")
 
OP
OP
Dmax3901

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,873
I don't think YOU know what you want here. And I guess it seems to me that you are upset that others in this thread have been somewhat dismissive, but while I dislike the one liners that Resetera loves to do, I feel like you didn't give anyone much to go on. You keep saying "well there's some other good posts in this thread." But they are all just kind of one offs. It's a meandering discussion that doesn't know what it's about.

Like, that should cause you to reflect. Because to me, my honest assessment here is that you don't know what problem there is that you might have with this. It seems like you saw a lack of representation and so you had an emotional response to that of "I want there to be diversity." Which is a good thing to want, but then it strikes you that that is a weird thing to want when we are literally talking about sexual exploitation for money. So now you're in a proverbial no-man's-land. And instead of examining that you've done that, you just kind of want to rely on other people to make points for you. The points you do make just...don't go anywhere. You don't know what you're asking for. And as a result you keep getting reactions because you have given no one a point to contend with.

You say I'm free to disagree with you but I don't know what the fuck you want me to disagree with.

You seem quite upset, do you think maybe you could take it down a notch? I admitted in the very post you quoted that I don't have all the answers and I'm looking to get more perspectives on this issue.

I didn't see a lack of representation and think 'I want more diverse porn ads in this game please', I saw an overwhelming amount of sexualised women in two trailers for a game set in an enormous world and questioned what value there was in their inclusion.

I think it makes sense that if they want to depict a capitalist world taken to the extreme that everyone would be sexualised, but I honestly don't trust CD Projekt Red (based on their back catalogue and all the PR surrounding this game) to handle those kinds of themes with the nuance and tact they require.
 

Feign

Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,504
<-- Coast
It sounds like a lot of work but I do really like that idea.

It would be even more interesting if say you started the player in a higher level of the town, where ads perfectly work to you, and everything seems nice and even if you as a player know that this ain't so right, it's easy to slip into it. But as the game progresses and the story takes you lower into the city, the cracks start to form and it starts to affect you more directly in more negative ways. I think that could be really powerful.

Definitely. And that's part of why I think not having it be known cyberpunk for that section would be more effective. Because if you withheld that information from the player and character it could lead to some great moments. Especially as a video game where you may expect something like supernatural elements or visions to be misleading you but really you're seeing technological breakdown. It could be fun in that usually there's something like, "The AI decided humanity was evil!" But in this case I imagine it would be purely error, but humanity being what it is some people would take it as a government conspiracy and start to rebel. People's minds would be the only true antagonist. Just a bunch of individuals trying to justify what is happening as needing to have a reason, but it's solely companies being cheap with their systems to mass produce giving out, ultimately having created the problem due to negligence and greed, and their need to target individuals so their profits constantly improve year to year.