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Hypersexualised Women in Ads in Cyberpunk 2077
- Thread starter Dmax3901
- Start date
Thread re-opened
Official Staff Communication
This is a thread about how in-game ads in Cyberpunk 2077 handle the sexualization of women. You do not have to agree with the premise, but the topic deserves a discussion, and if you attempt to shut that discussion down you will be banned. Mocking or attacking the OP for making the thread will result in long bans. We've permed a few trolls already. Let's also be clear: From this point onwards, any empty drive-by posts attempting to use the setting as an excuse to dismiss the concerns raised in this thread will also earn a ban. You can have a discussion about cyberpunk settings and cyberpunk tropes but you must engage in good faith and contribute more than a couple dismissive lines.
It's a game from a company that decided it was ok to turn female NPCs sex quests into tasteless collectibles.
OP
OP
So... I guess what I would ask from people in this thread is to go beyond "this is Cyberpunk not sure what you expected". I am not American, I am not puritanical. I'm also not 'offended' like so many people have suggested. The content of the ads on their own doesn't disgust me.
This game does not exist in a vacuum. Its developed by a studio with a history of sexualising/objectifying women and of catering to the worst kind of gamers. There's a reason this game is being held up as the second coming of Christ by certain folk and there's a reason that ANY kind of criticism of this game is met with such ferocious, blind resistance on this forum and elsewhere.
I also don't think criticising a game's marketing prior to actually playing it should be dismissed automatically. I'm not crying for the game to be censored or banned and there's plenty of posts in this thread that suggest that a worthwhile, respectful discussion can be had. Don't take it personally when people criticise something you're looking forward to.
I'm also not saying everyone who disagrees with the premise of this thread is wrong, people rightfully brought up that there is one ad featuring two nude men in the trailers in question as well as other ads found in other marketing materials. I didn't omit mentioning these in the OP by choice (I included the screencap after all) I simply thought it was one example among many that don't feature men. It's there, sure, but it's anything but equivalent.
I'm not going to waste any energy responding to people who say "but what about the ultraviolence".
This game does not exist in a vacuum. Its developed by a studio with a history of sexualising/objectifying women and of catering to the worst kind of gamers. There's a reason this game is being held up as the second coming of Christ by certain folk and there's a reason that ANY kind of criticism of this game is met with such ferocious, blind resistance on this forum and elsewhere.
I also don't think criticising a game's marketing prior to actually playing it should be dismissed automatically. I'm not crying for the game to be censored or banned and there's plenty of posts in this thread that suggest that a worthwhile, respectful discussion can be had. Don't take it personally when people criticise something you're looking forward to.
I'm also not saying everyone who disagrees with the premise of this thread is wrong, people rightfully brought up that there is one ad featuring two nude men in the trailers in question as well as other ads found in other marketing materials. I didn't omit mentioning these in the OP by choice (I included the screencap after all) I simply thought it was one example among many that don't feature men. It's there, sure, but it's anything but equivalent.
I'm not going to waste any energy responding to people who say "but what about the ultraviolence".
I...would really like to know if CDPR's team of consultants included sex workers. Or how much of the writing team is composed of women.
Oh I TOTALLY doubt they consulted sex workers. But that would be nice.
Of the footage I've seen of this game, it seems a lot of it takes place in seedy areas of the city, like red light districts and whatnot.
These are the types of things I'd expect to see. Prostitutes, strippers, that sort of thing. Walk down Bourbon st, and you're not gonna see sexy male ads.
These are the types of things I'd expect to see. Prostitutes, strippers, that sort of thing. Walk down Bourbon st, and you're not gonna see sexy male ads.
I can agree with all this. CDPR marketing, and at least certain people in leadership positions, have fucked up enough that they don't automatically deserve the benefit of the doubt on issues such as...is the in-universe exploitive and sexist advertisement meant to say something about the world and that is it, or is it also aimed at real world customers. If they spoke clearly on social issues, it would be easy to say, sure, this game world is shit, and this artistic style shows this, and only this. Bravo and all that. Because of their terrible communication, and willingness to cater to shitheads, they leave themselves open to doubt, concern, disgust, etc.
Basically, they could easily clear this all up if they wanted to, so why defend their ass, even if you/I like their games and play them?
They literally have a photo of the diversity on their team at the studio.
Before posting here, I tried to do some research to see if I could find any dev commenting on these. I found an interview from Polygon with Kasia Redesiuk, one of the art directors of the game, and responsible for all ads (or at least her team, it's not clear). It's about that "Mix It Up" ad. You can see it here.
The thing for me is... even if the intention is to show something horrible that you're fighting against, the presentation of it is different. The whole marketing, and also some of the developer highlights focus more on the "cool fantasy" of it. This video specifically shows this well. I get it is trying to attract a specific audience (it's easy to see which one it is), going from the edgy tone of the presenter to how he says, "living your Terminator fantasy" to exemplify one of the playstyles. Even if the art director is well-intended, there's a huge conflict: the presentation focuses on the "cool edgy future" and the ads are trying to focus on what Cyberpunk was actually intended to be like.
Frankly, I would be surprised if the game doesn't really focus on what we're seeing. If they want to show how horrible this world is, why are we seeing it as something "cool"?
The thing for me is... even if the intention is to show something horrible that you're fighting against, the presentation of it is different. The whole marketing, and also some of the developer highlights focus more on the "cool fantasy" of it. This video specifically shows this well. I get it is trying to attract a specific audience (it's easy to see which one it is), going from the edgy tone of the presenter to how he says, "living your Terminator fantasy" to exemplify one of the playstyles. Even if the art director is well-intended, there's a huge conflict: the presentation focuses on the "cool edgy future" and the ads are trying to focus on what Cyberpunk was actually intended to be like.
Frankly, I would be surprised if the game doesn't really focus on what we're seeing. If they want to show how horrible this world is, why are we seeing it as something "cool"?
The setting supposed to be dark and bad doesn't mean it has to be dark and bad using tropes of seedy red light districts from the 80s. There's no reason they need rampant sexualization of mostly women to convey this. In context of CDPR's general comments and content, there's little evidence so far they have depth and empathy to justify some stale cliches.
User banned (permanent): troll account
That thread when there's nothing left to be outraged over so you go in reverse.
That response has been broken apart for the bullshit it is already but beyond that they used this poster and cans of the drink in offline promo events. So the idea that it's some low-key commentary that's supposed to make everyone angry seems unlikely, in favour of a cheap "look, chick with an erection!" gag that echoes the character creator in plugging diversity and depth as a promo tool while doing everything at the expense of it.
Yeah, this is why I said I'd be surprised if the game actually had the depth the franchise promises. Everything so far makes it look like it's supposed to be "cool and edgy."
A good post about how a lot of recent cyberpunk (like altered carbon and maybe cyberpunk 2077) has stopped using the themes of cyberpunk for a purpose and started using it as a cool window dressing... Missing the whole point.
I hope Cyberpunk 2077 is different.
Weird seeing a depiction of such a future, that still persists in the idea that, mostly, only female bodies are meant to be sexualized. Well, this game does come from the minds of a very "multicultural team from US and all around Europe" right? No surprise that it also has the vision of the future of a straight man, in which 99% of sexualization is made with women bodies.
I mean, this is a conclusion taken from trailers, sure, but I don't expect the ratio of genders sexualized to change in the actual game, the devs probably aren't willing to risk the game looking "gay", right? I mean, the game is supposed to be played by men, right? /s
I mean, this is a conclusion taken from trailers, sure, but I don't expect the ratio of genders sexualized to change in the actual game, the devs probably aren't willing to risk the game looking "gay", right? I mean, the game is supposed to be played by men, right? /s
OP
OP
It's not the fact that is exists in the game at all but rather that it's so skewed towards sexualising women. Both the ads and the footage in the trailers themselves are clearly catering to the straight male gaze.
I personally feel we've moved past the trope in fiction of being like "look at this exaggerated version of stuff that exists in the real world, really makes you think huh?" It's not the deep critique so many people think it is.
I get it's not a perfect world, but it's presented as a world that is far more 'free' than ours, people can run amok with high tech weapons, alter their bodies to the point where they're barely human and megacorps run everything, and yet they're still mostly making ads for horny boys?
Isn't this how games like GTA got successful in the first place? Because you could sleep with hookers in your car and go to strip clubs and people thought it was cool.
CD project red are intentionally doing this, nothing is a mistake and shows you the type of devs they are.
Take The Witcher 3 for example, especially early on in Hearts of a Stone, Geralt gets cursed and his body gets invaded by a ghost as an excuse to be a misogynist. Plus all the unnecessary sex in the game.
CD project red are intentionally doing this, nothing is a mistake and shows you the type of devs they are.
Take The Witcher 3 for example, especially early on in Hearts of a Stone, Geralt gets cursed and his body gets invaded by a ghost as an excuse to be a misogynist. Plus all the unnecessary sex in the game.
Hopefully they use it to good use like in Blade Runner 2049
If cyberpunk can even have a couple moments like that, even in a side quest, I think it will be worth it.
When K sees the 100 tall naked ad for Joi that talks to him you see so many emotions going through his head. Regret for falling in love with a hologram but also sadness because he's just like her, made in a factory and when he dies they can just buy a new one. He's not at all interested in the fact she's naked, it's there to show how they sell those holograms.
If cyberpunk can even have a couple moments like that, even in a side quest, I think it will be worth it.
It's hard to say, without playing the game, how the game will actually handle this sutff. BUt a lot of the cyberpunk genre and cyberpunk franchise of rpgs in general are mean to be a criticism of stuff like capitalism appealing to the lowest common denominator and a future that revolves around that.
Whether or not the studio truly understands that is yet to be seen (as far as I know... obviously they have work to do on their social media front but i cant help but judge that on a separate vector than how the actual game handles things). Hopefully it's a bit more than just "TITTIES AN PENIS WOW COOL SO EDGY!"
Whether or not the studio truly understands that is yet to be seen (as far as I know... obviously they have work to do on their social media front but i cant help but judge that on a separate vector than how the actual game handles things). Hopefully it's a bit more than just "TITTIES AN PENIS WOW COOL SO EDGY!"
"It's cyberpunk, deal with it" is such a weird response. If the point they're trying to make with these examples of the advertising is "wow shit in the future is bad dude", then that's not remotely interesting and I'd question why they're making a cyberpunk game at all if they're going with such an entry-level take on the genre. It's been done a thousand times before.
Yeah. You only have to look at how William Gibson is still venerated today as the "godfather of cyberpunk" (but people really only talk about Neuromancer, which is ironically his weakest work to date) but he hasn't written anything in the setting since 1988, and even considers it to be a dead genre. It only really worked as a "future projection" of the hopes and fears of 1980s culture. It's full of tired tropes that have been beaten to death, and at some points had really interesting things to say about the way humans and our society interact with technology, but there hasn't been (imo) a truly worthwhile cyberpunk story for years. The only reason it's stuck around as a setting is the "wow, cool future" factor. Which is fine, btw. Just kind of a shame.
Yeah. You only have to look at how William Gibson is still venerated today as the "godfather of cyberpunk" (but people really only talk about Neuromancer, which is ironically his weakest work to date) but he hasn't written anything in the setting since 1988, and even considers it to be a dead genre. It only really worked as a "future projection" of the hopes and fears of 1980s culture. It's full of tired tropes that have been beaten to death, and at some points had really interesting things to say about the way humans and our society interact with technology, but there hasn't been (imo) a truly worthwhile cyberpunk story for years. The only reason it's stuck around as a setting is the "wow, cool future" factor. Which is fine, btw. Just kind of a shame.
This reminds me about the 2 leads in altered carbon season 1 being asked about the nude scenes, the guy was swedish and the woman was mexican and they both said their counties were much more relaxed about nakedness so im wondering if the people hung up on this are from more uptight countries?
Not having played cp2077 yet there was an interview with a producer from altered carbon where she explained their reasons and it would apply to cp2077 aswell. You may still not agree with the reasons or logic, but if your doing something like a story in a setting where your body is almost as replaceable as your car it kinda makes sense.
www.gizmodo.com.au
Talking to Gamespot a couple days ago, she said, "Our worst instincts as human beings have to do with our carelessness with natural resources, and when the body itself becomes just one more of those resources, how will we treat it? Will we treat it with such indifference and with such depersonalization that it becomes more like a very fancy car than a repository of the self?"
This, she explained, is the reason for the show's nudity: it illustrates the frivolousness of the future's bodies. "And that, I think, is one reason that the nudity itself is not gratuitous; it's meant to reinforce to you, as a viewer, that the advent of this technology fundamentally and substantially changes people's relationships with their idea of their own body," Kalogridis said."
Not having played cp2077 yet there was an interview with a producer from altered carbon where she explained their reasons and it would apply to cp2077 aswell. You may still not agree with the reasons or logic, but if your doing something like a story in a setting where your body is almost as replaceable as your car it kinda makes sense.
Altered Carbon's Showrunner Talks The Show's High Nudity Quotient
Altered Carbon is a show that is obsessed with nipples. There are nipples, and butts, and general displays of nudity, absolutely everywhere, from the pilot on. According to showrunner, writer, and executive producer Laeta Kalogridis, that’s done for intentional effect. Talking to Gamespot a...
www.gizmodo.com.au
Talking to Gamespot a couple days ago, she said, "Our worst instincts as human beings have to do with our carelessness with natural resources, and when the body itself becomes just one more of those resources, how will we treat it? Will we treat it with such indifference and with such depersonalization that it becomes more like a very fancy car than a repository of the self?"
This, she explained, is the reason for the show's nudity: it illustrates the frivolousness of the future's bodies. "And that, I think, is one reason that the nudity itself is not gratuitous; it's meant to reinforce to you, as a viewer, that the advent of this technology fundamentally and substantially changes people's relationships with their idea of their own body," Kalogridis said."
Basically this. I'm expecting to find a lot of disgusting stuff on this game including, but not limited to: commoditization of human life; modern day slavery in some fashion; absolutely degraded work relations/conditions and the hyper-sexualization the OP brought up. I'm also hopeful these elements will have direct implications on the game's main cast and side characters.
They are just establishing the setting. Its a dystopia.
We will need to see how characters and narratives that touch on these themes are portrayed before passing judgement. Its too early to tell.
We will need to see how characters and narratives that touch on these themes are portrayed before passing judgement. Its too early to tell.
OP
OP
This reminds me about the 2 leads in altered carbon season 1 being asked about the nude scenes, the guy was swedish and the woman was mexican and they both said their counties were much more relaxed about nakedness so im wondering if the people hung up on this are from more uptight countries?
Not having played cp2077 yet there was an interview with a producer from altered carbon where she explained their reasons and it would apply to cp2077 aswell. You may still not agree with the reasons or logic, but if your doing something like a story in a setting where your body is almost as replaceable as your car it kinda makes sense.
Altered Carbon's Showrunner Talks The Show's High Nudity Quotient
Altered Carbon is a show that is obsessed with nipples. There are nipples, and butts, and general displays of nudity, absolutely everywhere, from the pilot on. According to showrunner, writer, and executive producer Laeta Kalogridis, that’s done for intentional effect. Talking to Gamespot a...
Talking to Gamespot a couple days ago, she said, "Our worst instincts as human beings have to do with our carelessness with natural resources, and when the body itself becomes just one more of those resources, how will we treat it? Will we treat it with such indifference and with such depersonalization that it becomes more like a very fancy car than a repository of the self?"
This, she explained, is the reason for the show's nudity: it illustrates the frivolousness of the future's bodies. "And that, I think, is one reason that the nudity itself is not gratuitous; it's meant to reinforce to you, as a viewer, that the advent of this technology fundamentally and substantially changes people's relationships with their idea of their own body," Kalogridis said."
It's not the nudity itself that is the problem, it's that it is heavily skewed towards the heterosexual male gaze.
I mean that's what the Official Staff Communication is for. If people wanna read half of my OP, skip the rest of the thread just to post "that's cyberpunk lol" or "you're meant to be offended" or "you must be American" then let them go ahead and show their ass imo.
The sheer number of surface-level takes in this thread is kind of astonishing.
But then, I expect it at this point. People still don't respect women, even here. I don't even have much else to say about it because, really, when it's all boiled down, it's really that simple. Thanks a lot for reminding me how little I, and people like myself, matter to the general populace.
I'm so very tired.
But then, I expect it at this point. People still don't respect women, even here. I don't even have much else to say about it because, really, when it's all boiled down, it's really that simple. Thanks a lot for reminding me how little I, and people like myself, matter to the general populace.
I'm so very tired.
i feel like the reasons are pretty obvious:
1.) atmosphere. it's one part of a pretty straight forward reproduction of the grimy seedy urban underbelly vibe that is especially prevalent in retro 80s cyberpunk.
2.) titillation for what they probably expect to be a mostly hetero male audience. until sex somehow doesn't sell, we're going to keep seeing sex.
1.) atmosphere. it's one part of a pretty straight forward reproduction of the grimy seedy urban underbelly vibe that is especially prevalent in retro 80s cyberpunk.
2.) titillation for what they probably expect to be a mostly hetero male audience. until sex somehow doesn't sell, we're going to keep seeing sex.
If that's the point they're trying to make, then someone needs to buy them a mirror because they've been using the same kind of imagery in their own ads.
Honestly, most of the in-game ads seem kinda tame when you remember that this game was announced with a CG teaser of lingering shot of a sexy cyborg being executed by a shot to the back of her head.
OP
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Yeah, and even in just the two trailers I mentioned in the OP there's several very focused and deliberate shots of women dancing. I'm sure there will be male strippers in the game but they're all but absent in the marketing of the game itself.
Therefore making it immune to criticism or discussion?
The idea that we'd still be questioning gender and shit by the time we're thinking about trans-humanism was always funny. Cyberpunk didn't have much foresight. "What if 2080 was exactly the same as the 80s?"
maybe i'm misreading in the op but it feels like you phrased it as a very open ended question of "why do these ads exist in the game?".
the reasons are certainly open to criticism but i feel like you asked for the reasons. if you wanted to discuss the merit of the ads despite the likely reasons i would have phrased the op as something like "i think the hypersexualied ads in cyberpunk 2077 are indefensible despite being a trope of the genre, and here's why".
cyberpunk is rarely about attempting accurate futurism. cyberpunk 2077 even less so. a lot of the tech they show in the game is seemingly less elegant that current solutions because they're going for a retro cyberpunk vibe. similarly to blade runner 2049
The setting for this game is born from a country that has giant corporate chains of establishments best referred to as "breastaurants." I honestly can't believe this is a question you would ask.
OP
OP
While I agree that hypersexualization is a thing in the cyberpunk genre, this is from the same developers that gave you sexy trading cards for sleeping with every woman you encountered in the first Witcher. I'm not sure I buy in to the thesis that the developers want us to be offended.
Then if this is specifically about cdprs history then I still find it worthwhile to consider that these type of ads seem to originate from the table top game