How would a hypothetical Souls easy mode play into the metanarrative?

[Laziness]

There's no need to make a problem out of that. The core and "soul" of FS games is their environmental storytelling methods, not the gameplay and thus the difficulty. This along with the lore itself was the secret sauce that made Dark Soul so popular, the gameplay always comes second. Also, hence why you all been using the term "soulslike" in a wrong way, kinda: games like Code Vein or Nioh are not soulslike, "3rd person action rpg and you die a lot, lol" is not what makes souls games, emm, souls games. Something like Hollow Knight seems 10000 times more suitable for "Soulslike" title than almost every other game that was called that on the net, and not because it's hard, (it kinda is) but because of its ways of telling the story and lore through environment.

 

[Deleted member 49482]

There's nothing quite like celebrating Disability Pride Month, which is July, by reading multiple threads where a whole bunch of people just gatekeep with ableist comments wringing their hands about how much extra work it must be to think about people with disabilities for probably the first time in their entire lives judging by how these threads go.

The recent articles about Psychonauts 2 getting god mode and other accessibility features and responses to accessibility in general (which of course includes people bringing up FromSoft's games) pushed Steven Spohn, COO of AbleGamers to put out this twitter thread going over some of the comments and I'd really like for people to read through them. Like actually read through them and just understand them.

The metanarrative thing is just meaningless in the face of something needed.

Click to shrink...

This is a great thread. Thanks for posting it.

It's a guilty pleasure of mine reading through threads that discuss a hypothetical easy mode in FromSoftware games, and I don't think I've seen a single good reason why an easy mode and/or accessibility features (which could function as a de facto easy mode) can't be included. The "reasons" always read to me like a lack of empathy and not understanding that people experience games in different ways and enjoy games for different reasons.

 

[Praedyth]

I don't know about Dark Souls and its lore, but Demon's Souls clearly has an easy mode in game and in lore, it's called Royalty.

 

[PBalfredo]

Souls players, enjoying the entire breadth of playstyles available in the game: "There already is an easy mode and it's [a narrow playstyle that is commonly derived as being for babies]"

 

[Muetsch]

I mean the implications for the metanarrative is that some of y'all need to get a grip on reality.

How and why is this topic coming up again and again? Just because an "Easy Mode" (what a stupid term) would be available and more people would be able to enjoy "your" game wouldn't take away anything from you. Not any of your personal or in game achievements and obviously not from your giant e-schlong. Ffs

 

[Dr Pears]

Souls players, enjoying the entire breadth of playstyles available in the game: "There already is an easy mode and it's [a narrow playstyle that is commonly derived as being for babies]"

Click to shrink...

??? You can still play online coop with all the playstyles in the game? In fact, many playstyles (weapons/spells etc are only unlocked via some online mechanic). And i've never heard anyone say coop is for babies lol, in fact it could make the game 10 times more fun

 

[Lobster Roll]

lmao Souls games are a drug. Some people just suck at games and want to play a Souls game from end-to-end. The metanarrative can survive if you, the player, just leave the game on the default setting that the developers set it to when you boot it up.

 

[Stat]

One thing I do think is weird is this idea of shared experience. Because right now, the game difficulty isnt the same for everyone. Someone who has faster reflexes, the game will be far easier at its difficulty than someone with slower reflexes. Everyone isnt having the same experience because the difficulty is different for everyone.

I find Dark Souls and Demon Souls very very hard, but I found Sekiro super easy. I actually thought the final boss was one of the easiest bosses in the game. But I know that's also super unique cause most people found him very difficult.

 

[Neilg]

If said Easy Mode would adapt to every individual player (e.g. gradually lower specific enemy damage / enemy health), it would work in this context. Some players who chose to enable it would persevere and "win" in a couple of tries, some would do it in 10+, but they would still experience the death screen. No way around it I think.

Click to shrink...

This is a good idea. If easy mode simply adds a dynamic difficulty so each time you die, it makes you take slightly less damage, and as you make progress without dying, it gradually ramps up back to normal until you're getting stuck again. Reinforces that the game is about dying while allowing people who persevere and still can't get through an opportunity to experience it.

 

[Mirado]

I never got the whole argument against an easy mode/accessibility options, much in the same way I never understand arguments about the "sanctity of the developer's intended vision." Once I buy the game, the game is mine to do what I want with it. With the caveat that you shouldn't be allowed to impose on the multiplayer experiences of others, if I want to chop a game up into bits, I'mma bust out the cleaver.

I don't give a fuck if Todd Howard is crying into his money pile because I turned his dragons into the Macho Man or Thomas The Tank Engine, it's my game. Same goes for people playing on an easier difficulty or using Cheat Engine to make it easier, as long as you aren't fucking around online, do what you want to have fun. You paid for it, fuck this integrity of experience bullshit. Remember that article where people lost their shit over the author making Sekiro easier? It was sad that people would berate the poor author over something that has zero fucking impact on their own accomplishments.

Like the first reply said, you don't need a justification to make the game easier. You paid for the fucking justification when you purchased the game.

 

[ultramooz]

I'm interested in how invasions would work if you're playing on the standard difficulty and invade someone on easy can they one-shot you unarmed?

Click to shrink...

matchmaking people with same diffficulty level - it's not very hard.

Also to make some people happy :
When people play in easy mode, there will be words flashing across the screen constantly : « You didn't get gud » « Baby mode on » «Bloodborne was beaten by a 5 year old child »

To emphasise the shame of the unworthy.

 

[signal]

I've said this before but if they want to be cool about it, make it like the human plus system in armored core where you get powerful upgrades if you die a lot. e.g. you died however many times with a total soul loss of x, you've received the blessing from the deity of your covenant that does something. An aura or OP weapon or whatever.

 

[Love Machine]

It wouldn't play into it at all, imo. The world is still bleak and harsh regardless of player skill/difficulty level.

Introduce an item like "Ring of Divine Birthright" (lore describes it was dropped by a god) that stacks a bunch of boosts: reduces damage taken, increases attack power, stamina is always maxed out, increases dropped souls.

Click to shrink...

Though if you were going to play into it, something like this would be a nice solution. They essentially worked difficulty into the narrative on the flip side with Calamity Ring in DS1 DLC and Demon Bell/Charmless in Sekiro.

 

[GeoGonzo]

Why do gatekeepers always need to come up with such convoluted reasons for their opinions. Just say you don't want everyone to be able to play the game and move on.

Click to shrink...

Haha yup. Also, this thread seems to be unintentionally shitting on pure skill 100% no hit runs, which people should probably avoid to not hurt the metanarrative.

 

[Tovarisc]

1st reply really nailed it.

Having to justify difficulty adjustments through narrative / story / what ever metanarrative is is just form of stupid gatekeeping and roundabout way to say you don't want game to be more accessible.

It's kinda interesting how FROM games keep spawning these threads when they boil down to pointless thought exercises as FROM clearly has no interest in accessibility options either. They just do their thing and their games are X difficult without actual options to adjust that (outside of cheat engine on PC).

 

[Ashrak]

Just add a mode where you are invincible and everything dies in one hit. Everyone who disagrees with me is a toxic gatekeeper.

 

[Bufbaf]

Just add a mode where you are invincible and everything dies in one hit. Everyone who disagrees with me is a toxic gatekeeper.

Click to shrink...

How do you not read the buckets of toxicity within your own post? Like, seriously?


And fuck yes, that is absolutely an option. It's a mode, so you don't need to use it, so what's the issue with it. Call it "Story mode" and be done with it.

 

[Ashrak]

How do you not read the buckets of toxicity within your own post? Like, seriously?

Click to shrink...

I hope you have written a similar reply to everyone here in the thread who unironically rides the "Anyone who thinks a separate Easymode is superfluous, probably also considers himself a space marine of gaming"-wave.

 

[Praedyth]

Just add a mode where you are invincible and everything dies in one hit. Everyone who disagrees with me is a toxic gatekeeper.

Click to shrink...

At this point why not make the game press the buttons for you?

 

[Ashrak]

At this point why not make the game press the buttons for you?

Click to shrink...

welp... if you summon a player phantom that's experienced enough, we have that already. And this is literally an option that decreases the difficulty *alot*. You can summon even up to 3 phantoms if you are fine with placing a mark on your head. 2 if you don't want the risk of increased chance of invasions.

 

[Paquete_PT]

I think people are wrongly assuming that a person that (hypothetically) plays a Souls game on easy mode would not die and it would be a walk in the park. Easy mode is not for the hardcore players, it's for those that die so much and get so frustrated with the normal game that they can't make progress. It's for players with lower skills or some limitations. Their "easy" experience would probably be a lot similar to your original experience. They would die and die again but with a chance to make solid progress in between deaths.

 

[MP!]

Lol like I wouldn't die 100 times on easy mode

 

[Bufbaf]

At this point why not make the game press the buttons for you?

Click to shrink...

Yes, why not? If it's an option, what would speak against it? Wouldn't you like the Souls lore being experienced by all players who are interested, but are simply not able to play the game for various reasons?

Celeste has a TON of these options and it's a super hard core game, yet i never heard complaints about it having a "baby" mode or whatever. It's doing just fine even in Speedruns or similar environments.

 

[Snormy]

I think an easy mode doesn't need to fit into the narrative at all. For easy "mode" I would make it so the player gets more hints. More drops. Etc. Stuff like estus replenish after kills happens more regularly. Maybe you get a little more experience per kill. Maybe you retrain a certain amount of exp after death.

Here are some considerations that might make things easier without relying on a mode for example. In an Easy Mode perhaps these can be more common or happen more regularly or what have you.
- Enemies no longer respawning (done before)
- Leaving multiple blood stains, thus allowing you to try and reclaim them to recover more exp etc.
- More friendly and accessible co-op options.
- Hidden OP options that might help get through the game. Think drake sword -> Lightning Spear -> Zweihander route in Dark Souls 1. Doesn't need to be this but something similar, designed to be an option for those who might need it.
- Training room - summon an enemy you struggle with and practice safely. Get those dodge/parry windows.
- NPCs that turn up at bonfires after x number of deaths and offer some small token of items and advice on how to defeat enemies you were slain by.
- Following the above maybe they can join you for a bit and help push forward at least helping clear some ways to your blood stain. Maybe they might even tell you to watch them dodge specific enemies. "Ah, he raises the brick to strike And I fire my pistol as he steps forward like this... see?"

I find it baffling how there is so much excitement from a nothing announcement trailer such as eldenring. Fans are frothing at the mouth in hype because of the developers but also have no faith that these same developers cannot work out make the game still fun, challenging and have a variety of options in terms of difficulty and/or accessibility. That they cannot fathom the possibility that the developers might be able to keep their vision or alter it without making the game less fun and enjoyable.

It reminds me of Max's comment on fighting games and how simplifying mechanics is not always bad. Maybe there are less mechanics but the ones that exist gain additional uses in different situations. Thinking about it (an any change really) in an overly negative way and not giving it any chance is just blind bias.

And none if this even goes into a mode that might be designed for special needs type accessibility options. In that scope I imagine I would start off much more heavy handed as needed by virtue of focusing on addressing needs first and then work into bring the fun up. I think an entire mode is a probably the wrong approach though, probably best to have toggles and settings you can tweak as needed. That is another topic entirely any way.

 

[VectorOne]

I find it baffling how there is so much excitement from a nothing announcement trailer such as eldenring. Fans are frothing at the mouth in hype because of the developers but also have no faith that these same developers cannot work out make the game still fun, challenging and have a variety of options in terms of difficulty and/or accessibility. That they cannot fathom the possibility that the developers might be able to keep their vision or alter it without making the game less fun and enjoyable.

Click to shrink...

Have you ever considered that there is value in making everyone who plays a game subject to the same experience? Miyazaki doesn't want to add a difficulty level for that exact reason.

If a game developer has a specific vision, they should be allowed to execute that vision even if it means that the game won't be able to be enjoyed by everyone.

 

[Protome]

Haha yup. Also, this thread seems to be unintentionally shitting on pure skill 100% no hit runs, which people should probably avoid to not hurt the metanarrative.

Click to shrink...

Tbf this thread has now very much moved passed the bad metanarrative argument in the OP to the usual suspects coming out and going "Well, it's good actually that some people can't play the game I like, it makes it a better game somehow. Also I'm not a toxic gatekeeper, please stop calling me that it makes me sad. I'm not a gatekeeper I just don't want people playing a game I like 😭😭😭" like always.

 

[Small Red Boy]

I don't understand the use of "metanarrative" instead of "narrative" in this thread.

 

[HMS_Pinafore]

If Elden Ring has an easy mode my fragile masculinity will shrivel up and die! And I'll have to find another personally trait then just finishing video games that others can not.

 

[IMCaprica]

Have you ever considered that there is value in making everyone who plays a game subject to the same experience? Miyazaki doesn't want to add a difficulty level for that exact reason.

If a game developer has a specific vision, they should be allowed to execute that vision even if it means that the game won't be able to be enjoyed by everyone.

Click to shrink...

Except that's literally never been the case in any of these games. They're purposely designed to allow players some freedoms to go about the games as they please. I imagine this will be even truer with Elden Ring than their previous games. Their "vision" is exclusionary, and more successful studios are greatly expanding accessibility while From can't even bring themselves to use something as old as difficulty options.

 

[KeRaSh]

I've beaten all Souls games so far.
I recently replayed Dark Souls 3 on PC with modded stats via Cheat Engine.
That shit was fun as fuck. Don't care about gatekee... I mean metanarrative.

 

[Mukrab]

Im sorry but i disagree with every game should be for everyone. 99.8% of the games arent for me. So pardon my selfishness but the one or two games every year that are for me, i rather them be as much for me as possible. Not that i care if they would add an easy mode, but i dont think it NEEDS one. Just disagreeing with it having to be for everyone. And just to be clear yes games should be for everyone, and they are, just not every game. That doesnt even work. You can never make a game that is for everyone, the best outcome is to have games for everyone and that is already the case. Same with books, movies, and every other form of media and also everything else outside of media.

 

[VectorOne]

Except that's literally never been the case in any of these games. They're purposely designed to allow players some freedoms to go about the games as they please. I imagine this will be even truer with Elden Ring than their previous games. Their "vision" is exclusionary, and more successful studios are greatly expanding accessibility while From can't even bring themselves to use something as old as difficulty options.

Click to shrink...

Every game allows players some freedoms to go about the game as they please regardless of whether or not it has difficulty options.

I'm not sure why you put vision in quotes or what you mean by more successful studios. Fromsoftware makes games that are critically and commercially successful. Maybe not as commercially successful as some other games, but I think that's because they make games that aren't for everyone.

I just don't think they should have to add a difficulty option if they feel it compromises their vision.

 

[fushi]

Jedi Fallen Order was pretty well received and had selectable difficulty.

Click to shrink...

I just recently finished it and it felt rather unbalanced. Kind of made me understand why From focuses on a single difficulty level.

Have you ever considered that there is value in making everyone who plays a game subject to the same experience? Miyazaki doesn't want to add a difficulty level for that exact reason.

If a game developer has a specific vision, they should be allowed to execute that vision even if it means that the game won't be able to be enjoyed by everyone.

Click to shrink...

Agreed with this. People generally don't complain about writers or directors who use non-linear narratives for example, if it serves a clear purpose. It's more difficult to follow, yet also more rewarding by the end. Same with From games. The difficulty is a core part of the author's vision as well as the shared experience of players. An easy/accessibility mode wouldn't exactly take that away, but if the author decided it to be one way and the majority seems to enjoy that as well then I see little fault in that.

The insinuations of gatekeeping are also odd to me as I have had the exact opposite experience. Wander around the game world and there are tons of messages from other players who offer either advice or just words of encouragement to the player. Same with any youtube video on the more difficult bosses: lots and lots of tips on how to overcome them, easily drowning out the assholish "git gud" crowd.

If anything, I find the crowd demanding an easy mode to be way more rude and petty, as evidenced by this thread. "Fuck you for overcoming the challenges in these games and fuck From for not making the games exactly to my liking" seems to be the core argument here. To me that is a rather myopic view.

 

[Incommensurability]

I've been thinking about this. I used to be in the no easy mode camp, because I believed it would have never made me persist in my first souls game and that would have locked me out of the amazing feeling of overcoming the difficulty. But now I think that an easy mode could be implemented as long as the player is forced to choose their mode right at the start (and not bump it down for that one difficult boss).

 

[Kwigo]

No one cares, stop this stupid gatekeeping.

 

[EVIL]

What on earth is a metanarrative?

Who cares?

Let people enjoy games in whatever way they want.

I had more fun with Control once I turned on invincibility and unlimited ammo. Who was impacted by it?

Click to shrink...

That to me just reads as Control being a badly designed game, which I agree.

but on topic. My personal opinion is that not all games should be for everybody. There is a reason a soul game is a souls game and for me that should be okay. Each game has their target audience. Now do I think more games should have accessibility options for those who who need them to support one handed players, or those who are deaf or have vision problems, sure, but then it needs a way to retain the difficulty without making it impossible to play for those who need it and this should also be supported on a hardware level with console controllers etc.

Do I think sould games need to be changed just so a larger audience can play it because its too difficult for some? no. the game is simply not for you and that should be okay. there are plenty of easier games you can play, or you can watch streams on twitch/youtube etc if you are really into the lore of the game.

For souls game the large part of the experience IS overcoming great challenges and that was the vision that was set by miyazaki and his team.

 

[Protome]

That to me just reads as Control being a badly designed game, which I agree.

but on topic. My personal opinion is that not all games should be for everybody. There is a reason a soul game is a souls game and for me that should be okay. Each game has their target audience. Now do I think more games should have accessibility options for those who who need them to support one handed players, or those who are deaf or have vision problems, sure, but then it needs a way to retain the difficulty without making it impossible to play for those who need it and this should also be supported on a hardware level with console controllers etc.

Do I think sould games need to be changed just so a larger audience can play it because its too difficult for some? no. the game is simply not for you and that should be okay. there are plenty of easier games you can play, or you can watch streams on twitch/youtube etc if you are really into the lore of the game.

For souls game the large part of the experience IS overcoming great challenges and that was the vision that was set by miyazaki and his team.

Click to shrink...

The thing this argument always misses for me is...any actual reason why an easy mode would be detrimental to any of that.
Like literally any reason. You're just trying to say "Well, the easy mode wouldn't get the 'real' experience of what From wanted to do" but...so? If that lets some people who can't experience the rest of the game be able to experience it at all, in what way is that a bad thing beyond gatekeeping?

I wouldn't even use an Easy mode, I just don't understand the pretzels that people fold themselves up into trying to justify why they want to exclude people from playing a game.

 

[Weiss]

An Easy Mode provides the same meaty and rewarding challenge for less experienced players that the standard difficulty provides you or I. Furthermore, options like this could provide the only method of entry for players with disabilities.

This has been said and restated a hundred times now but y'all are in a rush to make sure everyone knows how much you respect the Developer's Vision in this incredibly specific instance that keeps someone else from playing your stupid electronic toy, as if this entire forum isn't constantly having at least five conversations about games to the effect of "I want this game to be more like this because I think it'd be better that way."

 

[.exe]

I don't think it matters much. Yes, there is a degree of synergy between the experience of playing the game and this theme. But that's not what people who want an easier experience are looking for, so there can just be an easy mode and separate the multiplayer pools (assuming the easy mode has different damage/defense modifiers). Bing, bang, boom.

It won't really matter anyway, because people will find reasons to complain about the easy mode too for not having a (mini)map, quest/boss markers, convoluted story, not enough story, too much walking, unresponsive combat, etc. and generally attribute dissatisfaction to anything except the game not being their cup of tea. It is the nature of things with Souls games.

 

[Deleted member 29464]

If you found a Souls game easy then did you actually truly experience it?

 

[Weiss]

I think they can just have an easy mode and separate the multiplayer pools (assuming the easy mode as different damage/defense modifiers).

It won't really matter anyway, because people will find reasons to complain about the easy mode too, like not having a (mini)map, quest/boss markers, etc. rather than recognizing the game sn't for them.

Click to shrink...

Let me put it this way.

I hate roguelikes. Can't stand 'em, the absolute fucking worst waste of time imaginable.

Despite hating roguelikes, some of them these days are getting designed in such a way that while the core "try, die, try again" experience is there, because that is so essential to the roguelike experience that once you take it out then it's no longer a roguelike, there's still some perk for the less diehard roguelike players. Hades is so roguelike its built into the bones of its story, but you can still toggle a defense modifier for people who want less of the constant repetition as opposed to all of the constant repetition.

Which is to say that if options exist to maintain what is the core experience for as many players as possible, if you can design your game in such a way that everyone can see your vision, how awful at your job are you that you can't give it to them?

If you found a Souls game easy then did you actually truly experience it?

Click to shrink...

I find Dark Souls 1 a baby game for babies now. Am I not experiencing it on replays, or does it provide me with something worth loving outside of the immediate challenge?

(the answer is yes)

Moreover, what's preventing Easy Mode from providing the same level of challenge to less experienced players, or players with disabilities preventing them from even being able to use the same physical dexterity that Souls asks of you? Why is the assumption that you, existing Souls fan, are now getting bombarded with Easy Mode?

 

[Aska]

Co-op is the easy mode.

 

[HBK]

An Easy mode doesn't need to be justified by making it a narrative dilemma.

Click to shrink...

👏

Not much to add really. There are always potential technical points about maintaining game balance and basically keeping the gameplay "interesting", which means making an easy mode can be harder than some may think to do it right, but people getting mad about FromSoft games potentially getting easy modes is genuinely laughable.

 

[Cyanity]

Co-op is the easy mode.

Click to shrink...

This is a meme for a reason. You can't offload an easy mode on a playstyle that won't be available in the future when the servers go down.

 

[Weiss]

I like how y'all fucking braintrusts think that not only is an esoteric mode reliant on a finite resource the widely available easy mode, but that your already existing solution of "just let someone carry you through the game" is better than tweaking the game to provide for other players, as if letting someone beat the game for you is "respecting the developer's vision of overcoming challenge."

Souls diehards just got no off button, huh.

 

[Unaha-Closp]

I feel like this has been solved without any narrative implications. You do a bit more damage, the enemies do a little less damage. It's not rocket science. Your healing items heal a little bit more. If you want to get really crazy, I assume nothing like this exists in these games as I do not play them, you can start with a health regen ring. That slow tick of health regen might just be enough for a less 'skilled' player to push on around the next corner. None of this affects the narrative and the gatekeepers can sleep easy at night knowing they are the true kings of gaming.....

 

[Zeron]

Damn, another thread I can't read because my eyes fell out of my head after rolling them too hard at the thread title.

 

[The Shape]

Why do gatekeepers always need to come up with such convoluted reasons for their opinions. Just say you don't want everyone to be able to play the game and move on.

Click to shrink...

Seriously. I burst out laughing at the OP. What person who wants to play an easier version of these games would care if it would supposedly ruin the metanarrative?

I like the lore, the visuals, the gameplay, but I can't, for the life of me, finish a Souls game. I'd play any easy mode I could (less enemy health, more mc health, slower enemies, adaptive difficulty, anything).

 

[Thera]

Why is it so difficult to understand difficulty is relative? For each game and each player.

All I want is a better checkpoint system. I don't mind the difficulty. Just give me a better checkpoint system and I'm good.

Click to shrink...

Well it's part of it. Any accessibility features are a way to make the game fit your play style / abilities.

 

[Dogui]

I think the thread idea is interesting and had a lot of potential until it turned into just another Dark Souls difficulty thread. Like, regardless of OP's opinion about if Souls games should have easy mode or not, From would probably justify in lore if they decide to put traditional difficulty modes. The integration between gameplay and lore is basically their sauce.

I mean, if you want difficulty modes in Souls, you could easily argue that the metanarrative should be adapted for the situation in some way, while giving examples on why OP is not right on being inflexible towards it. Instead, the argument here is just "Nobody cares" lol