OP
OP
How would this work for bosses? Would you spawn outside the boss arena or a bit before?
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How would a hypothetical Souls easy mode play into the metanarrative?
- Thread starter vestan
- Start date
Not what i said. Not having time and patience does not mean its hard, it means... no time or patience.
An easy mode would split the heavens, hearkening the release of the woeful cries of thousands of elite pro players, sundering their e-peens to the smallest of wisps.
Also, would bear zero repercussions to the enjoyment of their game that isn't played on easy mode.
Also, would bear zero repercussions to the enjoyment of their game that isn't played on easy mode.
The exact gosh darn same way the "normal" mode would fit into the narrative.
You can still make a world oppressive and challenging and dark through world design, lore, music, and enemy design. It doesn't matter if an enemy kills you in 1 hit or 10 hits, it wouldn't detract from the overall story they're trying to tell.
How many games that are praised for their narrative (Last of Us, Uncharted, etc.) have dissonance like this where a character can be shot 300 times and be fine, but once it's a "cutscene" it's for real? It's just like that.
You can still make a world oppressive and challenging and dark through world design, lore, music, and enemy design. It doesn't matter if an enemy kills you in 1 hit or 10 hits, it wouldn't detract from the overall story they're trying to tell.
How many games that are praised for their narrative (Last of Us, Uncharted, etc.) have dissonance like this where a character can be shot 300 times and be fine, but once it's a "cutscene" it's for real? It's just like that.
LOL, that wasn't my intention. (Locking easy mode behind normal mode is delicious in its irony.)
And I think it would be super funny to play through a Souls game dressed as a clown and one-hitting all the enemies!
(This is all just having fun and isn't really responsive to your question.)
Like it's literally as simple as this.
I can play Souls games and beat them with decent death rates nowadays. That's me, someone who's been playing them for five years now. I can't beat Dark Souls III and do find it too difficult, but I also think it's a dumb bullshit game that sucks so even though I am capable of learning the reactions and patterns of particular segments, I don't want to because the whole game is super goddamn boring.
Someone else might just not be good enough to play Souls on my level, in which case they get an Easy Mode because they want to play this super cool game everyone tells them is rad, and instead of hitting a brick wall that is a Fair and Honest challenge for me, they get a mode that provides them that same level of Fair and Honest challenge. That's one avenue to approach this.
The other is in service to players with physical impairments, so they can play Souls on a level that allows them to enjoy it and provide them the same challenge on a level they not only can handle, but can actually interact with.
It's because I have a mental disability and my life is severely impacted by it, so I do a lot of thinking about accessibility and accommodation.
It's not about the sanctity of your electronic toy, and cut your bullshit about virtue signaling. It's degrading to the both of us.
I can play Souls games and beat them with decent death rates nowadays. That's me, someone who's been playing them for five years now. I can't beat Dark Souls III and do find it too difficult, but I also think it's a dumb bullshit game that sucks so even though I am capable of learning the reactions and patterns of particular segments, I don't want to because the whole game is super goddamn boring.
Someone else might just not be good enough to play Souls on my level, in which case they get an Easy Mode because they want to play this super cool game everyone tells them is rad, and instead of hitting a brick wall that is a Fair and Honest challenge for me, they get a mode that provides them that same level of Fair and Honest challenge. That's one avenue to approach this.
The other is in service to players with physical impairments, so they can play Souls on a level that allows them to enjoy it and provide them the same challenge on a level they not only can handle, but can actually interact with.
It's because I have a mental disability and my life is severely impacted by it, so I do a lot of thinking about accessibility and accommodation.
It's not about the sanctity of your electronic toy, and cut your bullshit about virtue signaling. It's degrading to the both of us.
I understand what you're saying and agree. I personally haven't played Sekiro because from what I've read I think it would be too hard for me, but that's ok. I've beaten Demon's Souls a couple of times but that's mostly through brute force and over levelling, I'm not very good at the games.
Maybe easy mode characters would still be able to read and make messages, but wouldn't be able to summon help (or maybe only summon 1 person?) and cannot be invaded.
I know a lot of people would trade PVP for an easy mode.
And I would like more people to feel comfortable approaching the series. If a half damage toggle, free summons toggle, etc would do that then good. Like outside of Sekiro I just summon or grind my way through the games if I don't beat a boss in the first few tries for the most part and tons of players already experience the games that way. I see very little difference in experiences between just rolling around while two dudes clobber a giant tree for me and clicking 1/2 damage taken in a menu.
As a player you don't have to learn most of that though. I play largely for the world and monster designs and just brute force or summon my way through. Even with Sekiro I largely just looked up guides and AI exploits for the tougher fights. Some people just want to see col stuff.
No, some games are designed better on Hard or some other mode. I felt this way about Resident Evil 8. Also, it is not as simple as a Google search to determine a nuanced thing such as that. I'd prefer that developers spend their time balancing one focused experience.
Also, "there's plenty of players". Where are you getting that from? At launch that might be true, but after a couple months?
Regardless, FromSoftware isn't going to add difficulty modes.
That's actually a way better alternative than cutting the online altogether, or maybe enable summons but disable invasions for Easy Mode players.
Too many other instances of game series sacrificing something it's known for(and made it popular in the first place) for more sales, only for it to destroy the series as a result?
If I want to make a game that has difficulty and challenge as it's primary gameplay pillar then that's my choice and that is what the game is meant to be. If I don't want to include an easy difficulty, I should not be criticized for it, it's just not a game for everyone everywhere in all walks of life.
Not sure why there is always so much debate around this and I am a semi disabled gamer myself.
Not sure why there is always so much debate around this and I am a semi disabled gamer myself.
It's also hilarious how many people tread the hypothetical addition of an "easy mode" as a complete and utter removal of a "normal" or "hard" mode.
I don't think people are asking for Elden Ring or Dark Souls 4 or whatever to ONLY have an "easy mode", but for it to be an option. Nothing would stop you from being able to select the non-"easy mode" and confronting the challenges and all that stuff that's so important to people who oppose difficulty options.
Heck, even add a little wartermark to "normal mode" screens where it puts a little trophy on so you know you're playing the "real" game. Totally not gatekeeping. Or do the inverse and add a watermark to "easy mode" where it has a baby sucking on a bottle so you know whoever is posting that image is a wussy casual who isn't a "real gamer" like you who plays the game "as the developer intended".
The biggest of all /s in that last paragraph btw
I don't think people are asking for Elden Ring or Dark Souls 4 or whatever to ONLY have an "easy mode", but for it to be an option. Nothing would stop you from being able to select the non-"easy mode" and confronting the challenges and all that stuff that's so important to people who oppose difficulty options.
Heck, even add a little wartermark to "normal mode" screens where it puts a little trophy on so you know you're playing the "real" game. Totally not gatekeeping. Or do the inverse and add a watermark to "easy mode" where it has a baby sucking on a bottle so you know whoever is posting that image is a wussy casual who isn't a "real gamer" like you who plays the game "as the developer intended".
The biggest of all /s in that last paragraph btw
I swear this is same moral high ground / victim reaction I get any time I make this argument. Guess what? I have a mental disability too, that's honestly not a unique characteristic in gaming audiences. I like that I can't just slide the easy toggle when these games get tough, and the sense of accomplishment I get from persevering so shoot me I guess.
Then don't use it, as it is clearly not intended for you.
It's for the kind of person who cannot do the same things you and I can, so now they get a way to experience the same joys we do.
Giving an option that has no impact on the existing playerbase is literally the same as removing a series' unique identity in service of chasing trends. Exactly the same, no difference whatsoever.
Difficulty options wouldn't change a thing. It's just ridiculous to keep a game away from gamers that aren't as skilled as others.
Any sort of easy mode ought to be relegated to offline only. And even then, that's pushing players down a path that's very limiting. They might get half way through the game and then realize they'd want to play with friends, or do PVP, or they don't need the easy mode. And then they should have to start over.
I don't want people coming into my world who cruised through the game on easy mode. They were able to level up and get certain items with significantly greater ease.
I don't take the idea of "more options are always better". Most developers don't choose to include God modes in their games. If a developer chooses to not include that, I don't think they are unreasonable for doing so.
I'd rather FromSoft stick to what they are doing and offer more resources to make the games more accessible. More Co Op. More exploitable weaknesses. More weapons designed to cheese certain bosses. Maybe more favorable spawn placement. Secret ways to destroy bosses. Fast load times. Etc.
I don't want people coming into my world who cruised through the game on easy mode. They were able to level up and get certain items with significantly greater ease.
I don't take the idea of "more options are always better". Most developers don't choose to include God modes in their games. If a developer chooses to not include that, I don't think they are unreasonable for doing so.
I'd rather FromSoft stick to what they are doing and offer more resources to make the games more accessible. More Co Op. More exploitable weaknesses. More weapons designed to cheese certain bosses. Maybe more favorable spawn placement. Secret ways to destroy bosses. Fast load times. Etc.
You're right, it's not the same. At the same time, yo can't say with certainty that needing to put in an easy mode wouldn't negatively effect core game decisions making a worse experience.
Seem to recall Dead Rising losing the timer aspect to make things easier, and, well…
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissing Concerns of Accessibility
So.... like...play a different game? Maybe come to terms with the fact that the world doesn't revolve around you or them? IDK, but this line of reasoning is genuinely futile. I can think of a thousand better things to get upset about.
JRPGs are mostly games where shit is meted out through a menu with little reaction time needed and those games still remember to give difficulty options, as if players wanting more or less challenge can be catered to.
Don't you think designing a game in such a way that its sole difficulty level has to appeal to as many players of multiple skill levels as possible is going to cause a decline in the quality and challenge of these games moreso than a game designed specifically for high difficulty that is then scaled down in service of less experienced players?
Like the Psychonauts 2 thread had folks complaining that they'd feel compelled to toggle on God Mode, you think anyone would avoid using a specific weapon designed to cheese a boss?
Don't you think designing a game in such a way that its sole difficulty level has to appeal to as many players of multiple skill levels as possible is going to cause a decline in the quality and challenge of these games moreso than a game designed specifically for high difficulty that is then scaled down in service of less experienced players?
Like the Psychonauts 2 thread had folks complaining that they'd feel compelled to toggle on God Mode, you think anyone would avoid using a specific weapon designed to cheese a boss?
I don't think an offline (or messages/bloodstains only) easy mode would change my experience of any narrative, meta- or otherwise
I think people playing on easy will know that they are playing on easy. No need to come up with a story about it
I would just appreciate the extra options. I tend to be in favor of more options even if I don't use them
I think people playing on easy will know that they are playing on easy. No need to come up with a story about it
I would just appreciate the extra options. I tend to be in favor of more options even if I don't use them
Exactly. And this is what they have been doing. It already seems certain that this trend will continue with Elden Ring, given the pokemon-style summons that you can supposedly carry with you and the open world that will allow you to go somewhere else when you get stuck. Difficulty modes arent the best way to implement difficulty for most games in my opinion, so it's ridiculous that this conversation is always so binary. FromSoftware knows what they are doing and what is best for their game.
It doesn't need to?
But, you're not getting an Easy Mode anyway. So, the conversation is moot. Either learn or get it on PC with trainers.
But, you're not getting an Easy Mode anyway. So, the conversation is moot. Either learn or get it on PC with trainers.
I'd just have easy mode in the settings as an option and then the regular Souls difficulty signaled as the "intended" experience. No need to come up with excuses this way.
Likely one of the most pointless thought exercises we gratuitously engage in here. Souls will never have an easy mode, and as such this won't ever matter.
That sounds like Dead Rising threw out something its core playerbase liked in the face of declining interest as opposed to finding a way to creating separate experiences for different skill levels.
Like I agree Dead Rising kinda needs the timer, I wouldn't want to play Majora's Mask without the timer, but this comparison is apples and oranges.
Imagine being so shitty at creating art that you design something that fundamentally excludes certain people from enjoying it.
The amount of pride y'all take in knowing some people don't get to beat the same video games as you is wack tbh
That is clearly disingenuous though. If it's so shitty would you even care?
What are you talking about? I reiterated that OP's post is nonsense, an Easy Mode doesn't need a narrative justification. However, even still it doesn't matter because FROM isn't going to make one. So, if you want Easy Mode buy on PC and install trainers. Otherwise, there's nothing else that can be done except try to learn the game.
Schrodinger's Dark Souls.
I struggle to think of any book, painting, or movie that doesn't exclude someone from experiencing it.
It's also OK that From don't want to make a tweaked mode. I disagree that their games are made poorly, they are intentionally targeting a certain audience knowing full well it excludes other potential audiences. There's nothing wrong with that.
It's definitely a balancing act. Fortunately, the enthusiasts do get themselves into the NG+ realm where they can continue to challenge themselves. So even if the first playthrough has lots of options to beat bosses and its not too hard, the next time around may still be hard.
That's no one's goal. Souls fans will always help anyone asking for help with these games so they could have the experiences that first made them fans of these games.
There's plenty of literature that's not certainly meant to be enjoyed by novice readers.
I don't exactly see authors rushing to publish spark notes versions of their books.
The souls community is generally pretty supportive. If you were to ask a subreddit for help, you'll be met with tips on how to beat an area. People will critique your build. People will offer to co op with you. People may offer to donate some weapons/items.
The community is quite supportive.
I've co oped entire Souls games with noobs to the series. I actively want people to enjoy the experience.
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The thing about these discussions that makes no sense is that people against difficulty and accessibility modes aren't the people who would be affected by them, why even participate then? There aren't any games which have been made worse because they have accessibility settings. And those who say "Dark Souls already has easier and accessibility options baked into the game", what if people need more? What about those who cannot keep up with the game regardless because of a disability? Why support some accessibility but then draw a line at "too much" of something in the game that already doesn't affect you? If you're truly supportive of accessibility, more wouldn't affect you.
It speaks volumes that people are even saying "Fromsoft will never include them anyways". If you say that, then it's literally admitting that you're only here to debate something that not only doesn't affect you, but also in your own words, is something that doesn't have a chance of existing. It's admitting that you don't even have any reason to come into these threads other than to tell people to stop expressing their desire to have more difficulty and accessibility options.
It speaks volumes that people are even saying "Fromsoft will never include them anyways". If you say that, then it's literally admitting that you're only here to debate something that not only doesn't affect you, but also in your own words, is something that doesn't have a chance of existing. It's admitting that you don't even have any reason to come into these threads other than to tell people to stop expressing their desire to have more difficulty and accessibility options.
This is definitely a response to a thing I said and not a goalpost shift to avoid acknowledging what has actually been written.
We got braille and audio books, we got closed captioning for the hearing impaired.
Sounds to me like games are being lapped, and moreover if the ability to make that change is there to the detriment of literally nobody, then there's no good reason not to do it.
There is absolutely something wrong with that.
Like, I shouldn't need an example that is sensible to literally everyone of sound moral fiber like "but what about players with disabilities", the fuck y'all so worried about folks you don't know playing Easy Mode for??
That sounds like an example wherein I could, theoretically, improve myself to the point where I can read a piece of advanced literature, as opposed to this situation where the mechanical difficulty of this video game, a medium where progress is meted out through the actions of the player, can be stifled by a player who physically cannot perform the same way as large amounts of the audience.
Moreover, if a game can be tweaked in a way a book cannot, that sounds like a leg-up for games more than a reason for them to be held back.
That sounds like a reason to keep talking about it, then, instead of throwing my hands up.
Maybe the same rule applies. But can only die once during a boss fight, lose access to souls but revive and keep trying boss.
Man, some of you folks take Dark Souls WAY too seriously. And I love Dark Souls.
An easy mode doesn't need narrative justification. Good lord.
An easy mode doesn't need narrative justification. Good lord.
No it was me pointing out a contradiction, and puzzling over the argument you were trying to make. You called it art. Art is highly subjective and not really enjoyed by everyone or created with that intention most of the time.
Art has the capacity to be enjoyed by as many people as it possibly can, and then that capacity is measured by subjective interpretation.
Which is probably a lot different than "I would like to play this game, but I physically cannot keep up with its demands."
User Banned (2 Weeks): Ableist Rhetoric
then don't play such game if it giving you such a hard time. If something is not for you why force it.
Not gonna lie, I think it would be a hilarious troll by the devs if an Easy Mode toggle was added, but it was still considered too hard.
But back on topic, I don't really see the need for a metanarrative reason for easy modes, even though the Souls-games already do kind of have it (as mentioned in the thread already) in the form of summoning, etc. I realize it isn't the same though, as having someone else come in to do the challenging work for you is different from overcoming it by yourself.
I also don't think an easy mode needs to be in every videogame, but I wouldn't be up in arms with its inclusion, however.
But back on topic, I don't really see the need for a metanarrative reason for easy modes, even though the Souls-games already do kind of have it (as mentioned in the thread already) in the form of summoning, etc. I realize it isn't the same though, as having someone else come in to do the challenging work for you is different from overcoming it by yourself.
I also don't think an easy mode needs to be in every videogame, but I wouldn't be up in arms with its inclusion, however.
I would prefer if they'd contextualize any would be difficulty/accessibility options, but I don't think it's a necessity. While I think something akin to RE4's system for handling difficulty would be ideal, there's nothing wrong with picking an easy mode from a menu.
The difficulty isn't the draw for me when it comes to these games (though it can be incredibly rewarding). For me, the Souls games are about exploring the wonderful levels and enjoying the ambience and environmental storytelling that From Software is so excellent at. I'd love to see new players appreciate those aspects if the difficulty of enemy and boss encounters can be off-putting.
The difficulty isn't the draw for me when it comes to these games (though it can be incredibly rewarding). For me, the Souls games are about exploring the wonderful levels and enjoying the ambience and environmental storytelling that From Software is so excellent at. I'd love to see new players appreciate those aspects if the difficulty of enemy and boss encounters can be off-putting.
