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Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
This is a massive "y tho" for me given both the target platform and also the new modern HD ports.

I mean. I have never played Grandia. I would like to play it some day. I have a Saturn w/ Action Replay that could play this but.... why?

I have 2 bullet points for you my friend. Allow me:

  1. Saturn vs PS1: The Sega Saturn Grandia version was superior to the (later ported) PS1 version. Higher (and more stable) framerate, better floor textures in Parm, actual 3D backgrounds in all of the battle scenes (PS1 showed a rotating 2D background, Saturn had actual 3D modeled backgrounds), faster load times, perspective correct textured floors, and lastly, a better scaling method, PS1 sprites seems to be broken into tiles, which causes evident scaling on scenes.
  2. HD Port: The new HD port is based on the PS1 version, with all of the rendering flaws intact (battle scenes are still 2D, floor tiles in Parm are still based on the PS1, etc)
So if you really want to play Grandia "as it should", but you don't understand Japanese...this is the best news in decades for non-Japanese Grandia fans.
 
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Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
This one's a bit like that one:
Super Pilot
ss_c00ca76f6009179f7bf3d1746f7e858b897d7969.600x338.jpg

Sorry I missed this. Have you tried it? Does it feel as polished as F-Zero? It looked a bit jerky on the video.

Great new and old interviews about Xenogears development that got translated recently
20th Anniversary Concert
http://xenogearsxenosagastudyguide.blogspot.com/p/xenogears-20th-anniversary-concert.html

1998 inerview (2018 translated)
http://xenogearsxenosagastudyguide.blogspot.com/p/interview-with-xenogears-staff-1998.html

Thank you for this, I love everything Xenogears related. People tend to focus on the story on all Xenogears discussion, but I think the actual aesthetic of the game is what made interested in the first place.

Well, It's only second hand knowledge :) I was just lucky to work with a few Rare guys for a couple of years as we tried to get our own game off the ground.

https://www.unseen64.net/2011/07/21/popcorn-psx-cancelled/

Those screens actually look good for the time, and claiming high res with 30fps wasn't easy! What would you say was the main reason for the cancellation? There wasn't a market for an explorer-- bomberman game with the publishers?

Do you have any other screen other than the ones shown in that website? (Maybe you saved them back in the day)

One of the greatest legacies of FF7 was how they were able to convey so many emotions through so few polygons, while making them look aesthetically beautiful for its time.

Personally, I think the battle models are timeless.

And I agree with you. They looked good in 1997, they still look good in 2019, and they will always look good (they upscale very well to higher resolutions, with no obvious mistakes or glitches or polygon warping-collition as many other games did back then)

I got Maya 1.0 working in VMware but no hardware acceleration atm so we'll see I guess.

I was able to render something, although saving it was really weird, I had to save as an .iff and then open it to save as an image.

XkgCApuw_o.png

This is great! Do you have experience with newer tools? How would you compare them, is it like traveling back in time with different paradigms or is it still similar ?
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
This is great! Do you have experience with newer tools? How would you compare them, is it like traveling back in time with different paradigms or is it still similar ?
I've been using modern versions of Maya for several years now and they're surprisingly similar, the feature set is obviously simpler, and the UI is less intuitive, but it's definitely Maya. I spent more time playing with shaders and lighting to get the image below, if you compare this to the DKC cover or something you'll see the similarities in the specularity and shading.
wtm6tiIQ_o.png
 
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Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

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Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
I've been using modern versions of Maya for several years now and they're surprisingly similar, the feature set is obviously simpler, and the UI is less intuitive, but it's definitely Maya. I spent more time playing with shaders and lighting to get the image below, if you compare this to the DKC cover or something you'll see the similarities in the specularity and shading.
wtm6tiIQ_o.png
This is great, thank you for your update! Is there a way to import a low-poly model and try to recreate the Mario 64 CGI box look ? (DK may be too complex)
 

napkins

Member
Nov 18, 2017
1,920
Sorry I missed this. Have you tried it? Does it feel as polished as F-Zero? It looked a bit jerky on the video.
I have not played it, but the reviews claim it's the closest a game has come to that. Still early access, but the devs seem very willing to make adjustments to get the feeling right.
The track editor looks especially neat, though.
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
This is great, thank you for your update! Is there a way to import a low-poly model and try to recreate the Mario 64 CGI box look ? (DK may be too complex)
Everything on that cover is most likely made of NURBs not polygons, I did try to import an .obj model of the happy mask salesman, but it didn't work so I'm not sure, I'd have to try other files, it may also be possible to convert it to something Maya 1.0 can make sense of. The renderer is legit though, if you want to create retro looking renders, like the covers of so many N64 games, this is definitely the most authentic way to do that.

cc0d0c31-cae9-4a18-8db3-89604b477445.jpg


I love shit like this so I'll definitely be playing with it some more.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
Man I hated NURBS. I downloaded an illegal copy of 3d studio max R2 when I was 13 and remember trying to model a human head by lofting between hand-drawn NURBS curves.

Something like this:
Lips8.jpg

I could never get a decent result with this method.
3DS MAX had bad NURBS support but they were never a good fit for organic or irregular surfaces to begin with.

As for the above renders, there is no reason you can't get the same results with a modern renderer.
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
Man I hated NURBS. I downloaded an illegal copy of 3d studio max R2 when I was 13 and remember trying to model a human head by lofting between hand-drawn NURBS curves.

Something like this:
Lips8.jpg

I could never get a decent result with this method.
3DS MAX had bad NURBS support but it was never a good fit for organic or irregular surfaces.
90's modeling software was not great at creating organic shapes, it still isn't all that intuitive, ZBrush is a much better tool for that sort of work.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
90's modeling software was not great at creating organic shapes, it still isn't all that intuitive, ZBrush is a much better tool for that sort of work.
Absolutely, but even modern(since mid 00's and onward) poly-modeling tools are a dream to work with in comparison to nurbs. Polygonal sub-d modeling felt like a revolution at the time.
 
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hanshen

Member
Jun 24, 2018
3,861
Chicago, IL
Man I hated NURBS. I downloaded an illegal copy of 3d studio max R2 when I was 13 and remember trying to model a human head by lofting between hand-drawn NURBS curves.

Something like this:
Lips8.jpg

I could never get a decent result with this method.
3DS MAX had bad NURBS support but they were never a good fit for organic or irregular surfaces to begin with.

As for the above renders, there is no reason you can't get the same results with a modern renderer.

NURBS was never designed to model organic shapes, given its industrial design root. Although it's gotten a lot easier nowadays. Maya has a really powerful subD to NURBS tool. Rhino3D also has subD support in the work in addition to tspline.
 

dock

Game Designer
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,370
I love that Nendo and Mirai became Wings 3D!! That explains a lot. It's still a great application for 3D models.

I personally know of companies using text files (!) to edit 3D models, checking the results in the game but changing everything by changing coordinates.

My first job in games was doing lots of 400 poly (tri) characters so I know the pain, but it's a really satisfying way to work. Square did amazing work!!
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
NURBS was never designed to model organic shapes, given its industrial design root. Although it's gotten a lot easier nowadays. Maya has a really powerful subD to NURBS tool. Rhino3D also has subD support in the work in addition to tspline.
oh yes, but despite that many used NURBS for organic stuff back in the day. I remember there being a lot of marketing pushing NURBS as the hot shit even for non-design software. Other "fun" approaches were implicit surfaces(meatballs/clay), patches, spline surface modeling and so on. I actually liked spline surface modeling a fair bit, probably because the spline tools in 3dsmax were pretty good and the generated surface had very sane and usable polygons - even for low-poly stuff.
 
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Laser Man

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,683
I always admired what some people were able to achieve with NURBS modeling back in the day, entire awesome looking characters (I had a book full of them from various artists and I was perplexed by the results) I was also trying to achieve something similar in an early version of 3ds Max but I always had problems with getting the transition of 2 surfaces just right, there was always a dent or ridge. When sub-d modeling came around it was like a godsend, I never looked back to NURBS, not even for mechanical objects with round surfaces.
 
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Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
I love that the FFVII battle models dont have blurry/pixelated textures. They're so much better for it.

Oh yes. They are very clean and have just enough polys to remain similar to the original art. Nomura knew what he was doing back then (art that could be portrayed in low-poly). One of the main reasons I created this thread was to see if someone knew who actually made these specific models...

yuffie.jpg
seph.jpg


tifa.jpg
vincent.jpg


red13.jpg
cloud.jpg


cid.jpg
cait1.jpg


(This Barret looks weird)

barret2.jpg
aeris.jpg
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
4,491
I love that Nendo and Mirai became Wings 3D!! That explains a lot. It's still a great application for 3D models.
I haven't heard of those former forms but Wings 3D is great. I've switched off of it to Blender but prior to that I generally preferred using it to 3DS Max for non-skeletal meshes in my game.
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
Modern renderers tend to mute highly saturated colors by default, that's definitely not the case here. For software from 1998, it's actually pretty easy to make something look decent.

Zno7e2v8_o.png
 
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Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

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Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
I apologize in advance for the crappy video quality. I genuinely though it would look better after uploading to YouTube...

Weltall is an amazingly modeled and textured asset, for a 1998 game on PS1:

Xenogears PS1 running on PSP 3000 (original aspect ratio and resolution, official PSN release):

SyJbi9e.jpg


Video rotating the camera. Sadly, quality is crap:



Photo of the figure, bought near Akihabara earlier this year (just finding it was almost a miracle):

Xz3OuiT.jpg
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
I really like how certain metallic objects looked in N64 games, if anyone knows if this effect has a name I'd love to know.

Jiggies-Gifs-banjo-kazooie-31352617-498-371.gif


SlimDarlingBittern-size_restricted.gif


tumblr_pomdqriwnh1vliin0o1_r2_400.gif
 
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Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

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Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
I really like how certain metallic objects looked in N64 games, if anyone knows if this effect has a name I'd love to know.

Jiggies-Gifs-banjo-kazooie-31352617-498-371.gif


SlimDarlingBittern-size_restricted.gif


tumblr_pomdqriwnh1vliin0o1_r2_400.gif

Isnt it a variation of Specular Highlights?

In high school, I used to go to the Temple of Time, press C-UP and stare at the 3 rotating Spiritual Stones. I also rotated the camera (press Z looking at a wall) to see the Biggoron Sword with its "realistic metal shine".

latest


The Barney guards helmets in Half Life 1 also looked good with that shine:

ozfln0ohiso11.jpg
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
Isnt it a variation of Specular Highlights?

In high school, I used to go to the Temple of Time, press C-UP and stare at the 3 rotating Spiritual Stones. I also rotated the camera (press Z looking at a wall) to see the Biggoron Sword with its "realistic metal shine".

latest


The Barney guards helmets in Half Life 1 also looked good with that shine:

ozfln0ohiso11.jpg
The revolver too

latest
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,890
Columbia, SC
I really like the look of low poly models with higher resolution textures. Like 512x512 size or so instead of like 128x128 or 256x256.

Obligatory Bobo the Seal picture:

engineer-final02.jpg

engineer-final01.jpg


The legs look pretty basic but from the waist up, it is so good.
The model probably has close to the same polycount as that cloud model up above.

That dude was pretty much why I lurked around the polycount forums in the early 00's. That texturework was bonkers and it still holds up all these years later.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,909
For anybody wondering about software

Engines where by and large built internally, there were some 3rd party engines here and there like Torque but most Japanese dev houses would always build their own engines

3D production changed a lot very quickly, N64 era had SGI workstations but by PS2/Dreamcast days you just needed a beefy Pentium of some capacity. For 3D software the 4 big ones were 3D Studio Max, XSI, Lightwave and, later, Maya. XSI and Lightwave were HUGE in Japan, 3DS Max and Maya were constantly at each others throats with 3DS being older and thus giving developers a chance to build a lot of handy tools to make life easier but Maya being the new boy in town offered a lot of new features, specifically in animation. Blizzard, for instance, was traditionally a 3DS house because of their crazy expanded toolset they built, having only just recently switched to Maya for Overwatch.

Another thing to consider is that in the earlier days, these programs didnt have much of a user interface AT ALL. Friends who learned 3D shortly before I did couldnt believe that our version of Maya had on screen controls, they had to model all their shit WITH NUMBERS.

For industry veterans at the time the mid 90's were an inflexion point were this entire generation of 2D artists had to either learn a brand new set of very difficult skills, move up in the corporate ladder or get the fuck out of the industry because pixel artists were seen as caveman that wouldn't be able to find work.
 
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Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

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Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
For anybody wondering about software

Engines where by and large built internally, there were some 3rd party engines here and there like Torque but most Japanese dev houses would always build their own engines

3D production changed a lot very quickly, N64 era had SGI workstations but by PS2/Dreamcast days you just needed a beefy Pentium of some capacity. For 3D software the 4 big ones were 3D Studio Max, XSI, Lightwave and, later, Maya. XSI and Lightwave were HUGE in Japan, 3DS Max and Maya were constantly at each others throats with 3DS being older and thus giving developers a chance to build a lot of handy tools to make life easier but Maya being the new boy in town offered a lot of new features, specifically in animation. Blizzard, for instance, was traditionally a 3DS house because of their crazy expanded toolset they built, having only just recently switched to Maya for Overwatch.

Another thing to consider is that in the earlier days, these programs didnt have much of a user interface AT ALL. Friends who learned 3D shortly before I did couldnt believe that our version of Maya had on screen controls, they had to model all their shit WITH NUMBERS.

For industry veterans at the time the mid 90's were an inflexion point were this entire generation of 2D artists had to either learn a brand new set of very difficult skills, move up in the corporate ladder or get the fuck out of the industry because pixel artists were seen as caveman that wouldn't be able to find work.

Fantastic post with a lot of insight and context. Gracias!

Since you may know a bit about the Blizzard workflow, do you have any insight on how the Diablo 2 sprites were originally created? I assume they created sprites out of the 3D models (like in Starcraft 1?). Was it 3DS then? How would they "convert" from the 3D image to the 2D one?

I would assume the following games used a similar 3D to 2D workflow?

  • Diablo 1 - Diablo 2
  • Starcraft 1
  • Fallout 1 - Fallout 2 (Interplay)

These are screenshots I took last week, with added scanlines (Reshade). Love how the game looks, it holds up today:

jW4sX48.jpg


IZjUVWx.jpg


Some enemies:

Ghost_%28Diablo_II%29.gif
Blunderbore_%28Diablo_II%29.gif
Fetish_Shaman_%28Diablo_II%29.gif
Blood_Lord_%28Diablo_II%29.gif
Mephisto_%28Diablo_II%29.gif
 

Deleted member 2620

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I really like how certain metallic objects looked in N64 games, if anyone knows if this effect has a name I'd love to know.

I've always called that Environment Mapping. These days you usually get a drastically higher-resolution cubemap being used for reflections and maybe this is the same idea but it really has a distinct feel in early games that used super low-resolution fixed images for the reflections. Or maybe I'm off-base and these older games are doing something totally different?
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
I've always called that Environment Mapping. These days you usually get a drastically higher-resolution cubemap being used for reflections and maybe this is the same idea but it really has a distinct feel in early games that used super low-resolution fixed images for the reflections. Or maybe I'm off-base and these older games are doing something totally different?
That was my assumption too, we're probably right I think, it's definitely texture based, in this case probably a low res dithered gradient (or procedural clouds) if I had to guess.
 

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Oct 25, 2017
4,491
That was my assumption too, we're probably right I think, it's definitely texture based, in this case probably a low res dithered gradient if I had to guess.

Took a quick look for environment maps used in OoT and ran into this Cutting Room Floor page: https://tcrf.net/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Ocarina_of_Time/Unused_Textures

Apparently this little 16x16 texture was used for most reflection in OoT and Mario 64, lol:
OoT_Unused_Jelly_Enemy-Texture.png


I had UE4 open so I threw the image in there and tried to come up with a really simple material using it and I can kinda see something starting to resemble?

 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
Found this: http://the303.org/tutorials/gold_mdl_chrome.htm

Surprisingly it's a MatCap (which might be a familiar word for people doing 3D art).
I expected something like primitive cubemapping instead? But I guess it was way too early for that - apparently that's how it's done in HL2.
Took a quick look for environment maps used in OoT and ran into this Cutting Room Floor page: https://tcrf.net/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Ocarina_of_Time/Unused_Textures

Apparently this little 16x16 texture was used for most reflection in OoT and Mario 64, lol:
OoT_Unused_Jelly_Enemy-Texture.png


I had UE4 open so I threw the image in there and tried to come up with a really simple material using it and I can kinda see something starting to resemble?

Looks like I had the right idea:

OoT_Unused_Jelly_Enemy-Texture.png
- texture

OoT-Unused_Jelly_Enemy.png


It's so primitive but it looks so satisfyingly lustrous
 

Accoun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
How would they "convert" from the 3D image to the 2D one?
They would just render out a series of low-res images on a set background under multiple angles and create sprite sheets from that. Here's the OG Rollercoaster Tycoon artist showing how he automated it with Photoshop:



[EDIT]
Bonus from comments that might interest people:
For RCT 1 I used Lightwave for the modelling and Raydream Studio (now called Carrara) for the animation and rendering. For RCT 2 I used Lightwave for the modelling and 3d Studio Max for the rendering.
don't have Max installed anymore so this is from memory... Use the same lighting rig for all your work. Set up a set of lights for your main light direction but also use filler lights to catch details in the shadows. The camera was something like rotated 45 degrees on the vertical axis and pointing down by 30 degrees. Make sure it's set to orthographic. Draw out an (eg) 64 by 64 by 64 meter cube and do a series of tests with the zoom to make sure you have 1 meter = 1 pixel horizontally. It'll be less vertically so stretch your cube up & down until you get to a point when you can say 'Ah! so if I have a height of (for example) .578 meters It'll render out as half a pixel tall. Keep the size of your final render the same for everything and crop out of the middle using the techniques described in this video. I used the default scanline renderer and there's an option somewhere to disable render antia alias against the background. Make sure you check it and keep it checked so you get crisp edges with no anti aliasing against whatever colour your background is. The default scanline renderer doesn't do global illumination, hence the need for experimenting with the lights to get some detail in the shadow areas - the default fill light (can't remember how that's exactly called) for the scene makes terrible shadow effects. Hope that helps
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
Took a quick look for environment maps used in OoT and ran into this Cutting Room Floor page: https://tcrf.net/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Ocarina_of_Time/Unused_Textures

Apparently this little 16x16 texture was used for most reflection in OoT and Mario 64, lol:
OoT_Unused_Jelly_Enemy-Texture.png


I had UE4 open so I threw the image in there and tried to come up with a really simple material using it and I can kinda see something starting to resemble?

Looks about right, though it should probably repeat less
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,909
Fantastic post with a lot of insight and context. Gracias!

Since you may know a bit about the Blizzard workflow, do you have any insight on how the Diablo 2 sprites were originally created? I assume they created sprites out of the 3D models (like in Starcraft 1?). Was it 3DS then? How would they "convert" from the 3D image to the 2D one?

I would assume the following games used a similar 3D to 2D workflow?

  • Diablo 1 - Diablo 2
  • Starcraft 1
  • Fallout 1 - Fallout 2 (Interplay)

These are screenshots I took last week, with added scanlines (Reshade). Love how the game looks, it holds up today:

jW4sX48.jpg


IZjUVWx.jpg


Some enemies:

Ghost_%28Diablo_II%29.gif
Blunderbore_%28Diablo_II%29.gif
Fetish_Shaman_%28Diablo_II%29.gif
Blood_Lord_%28Diablo_II%29.gif
Mephisto_%28Diablo_II%29.gif

Yeah thats pretty easy, modern games use the same technique nowadays too, You make everything in 3D, setup a render scene, render every frame from every angle and then you turn those renders into a 2D spritesheet. Not unlike Donkey Kong Country or, more recently, Clash of Clans. It can get pretty expensive based on the number of angles you want, minimum is 2 which then you flip but you can add more for smoother animations. Back then I dont think 3DS had a renderer so they probably needed to find a 3rd party solution to render their models, nowadays its mostly all integrated because every company bought every company

To continue the spritesheet conversation, I have worked on games that rendered 3D into 2D sprites AND have done a couple of textureless projects. Heres some assets from a cancelled mobile game

minion_elemental_3d.jpg


These are elemental variants for the enemies in our game. We had a barebones art team. One Art Director/Lead Artist/concept/environment artist (meee), one Animator/Renderer/Rigger guru (who went to Blizzard right after and now Niantic), one character modeler and one env modeler/vfx artist. So, SMALL ASS TEAM, in order to make the game we came up with a pipeline that only had two angles front and back) and no textures of any kind, it was all handled through shaders and straight up adding color to the models. This freed up the production pipeline enormously to the point we could even add a weapon mask to our character renders so we were able to have swappable weapons

For environments, we leveraged our strengths. Im a pretty damn fast 2D artist and we had a pretty fast zbrush artist at work. I had already figured out the tiling tech we were going to need and had the look of the game approved so I needed assets FAST so we came up with a pipeline that would work for everyone. Concept from me, he models the shit out of it without textures, makes a giant grayscale render with Ambient Occlusion baked in, I take that to Photoshop and paint it out.

040bdb_3771552d2244484686f5209d58f69738~mv2_d_2171_1211_s_2.webp


End result was pretty damn good so thats how we built the rest of the game, this is our ice level tile set and below some ingame screenshots showing how easy you can make diverse layouts with it.

snow_tileset.jpg


snow_screens.jpg


And thats just one way to do things, another example is the upcoming Steambirds Alliance by Spryfox. The game has been in dev for a while and when I came in was struggling because of its 2D tileset. I was asked to come up with a 3D pipeline that would make the game resonate with potential publishers and ... shit, Im just one guy so, again, the last thing I wanted to do was texture every.single.thing in the game! Its a huge game, a goddamn MMO Roguelike SHMUP (and its awesome!)

Another big problem was that big sprite cause big demands from performance. People dont know this but polygons are MUCH cheaper than textures, so if you want your game to perform better on low end device, take a look at your texture budget and find ways to optimize that shit.

So, solutions, get rid of the sprites and have no textures! We were using Unity and Unity for PC has some sweet sweet solutions that can make your game look "artsy af on purpose" by doing the following
  • fog
  • multiple lights, allowing for cast shadows and colorways
  • ambient color separate from the other lights
  • realtime ambient occlusion
  • depth of field
So I used all those things (except DoP, we couldnt fit that one in) and I colored the assets in Maya by coloring their vertices. Now, you may or may not know what the fuck a vertex is. Its the "dot" on a 3D model, here

3D_mesh_components.jpg


And guess what you can do with that shit, you can PAINT IT

bRRFA.png


The color originates at the vertex until it reaches the next one. Based on the number of vertices on a given model, the painting will look more or less detailed, if its too low poly gradients tend to look pretty bad.

Anyways, to test the theory I made some mockups and prototypes. This is a mix of a 3D render with 2D on top

high_concept_05.jpg


Parallax test to see the "level up" from 2D to 3D

3d_test.gif


and tiling tests to see if we could make a giant 3D world with a non crazy number of tiles (given the FOV in the game these models had to be pretty tall)

tiled_terrain_06.jpg


SO, how does it look? Heres some comparison shots from the old to the new look. This was before I left two years ago, the game has made more visual strides since, btw! I was just there for 6 ish months to help set the new direction.

ice_dungeon.jpg


beach.jpg


highmountains.jpg


And some cooler standalone shots, all the colors in the model are handled by painting the vertices

5-19-2017-military.jpg


5-29-2017-tank.jpg


march22_17_03.jpg


5-30-2017-forest.jpg


feb19_17_01.jpg


5-30-2017-bomboss.jpg


The flat colors combine really well with the ambient light, colored fog, AO, traditional VFX etc to create what I think was a pretty unique look. Even now 2 years after I left the look has stayed mostly the same which is a good indication that it holds up

 
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Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

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Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
Took a quick look for environment maps used in OoT and ran into this Cutting Room Floor page: https://tcrf.net/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Ocarina_of_Time/Unused_Textures

Apparently this little 16x16 texture was used for most reflection in OoT and Mario 64, lol:
OoT_Unused_Jelly_Enemy-Texture.png


I had UE4 open so I threw the image in there and tried to come up with a really simple material using it and I can kinda see something starting to resemble?


That looks pretty close. Seems like you found the source (or a very similar texture)

They would just render out a series of low-res images on a set background under multiple angles and create sprite sheets from that. Here's the OG Rollercoaster Tycoon artist showing how he automated it with Photoshop:



[EDIT]
Bonus from comments that might interest people:


This was fantastic. We have to use automation at work (pre planned or ad-hoc) but this is one of the first times I see it done like this, step by step, for a game I know and love. I can only imagine the pain of producing these assets without the help of automation. Back then you wouldnt have a lot of pre-existing options in the software suites, so engineers had to make custom export-import-converters. I know thats probably still the case today, but back then everything was harder and more time consuming.

Yeah thats pretty easy, modern games use the same technique nowadays too, You make everything in 3D, setup a render scene, render every frame from every angle and then you turn those renders into a 2D spritesheet. Not unlike Donkey Kong Country or, more recently, Clash of Clans. It can get pretty expensive based on the number of angles you want, minimum is 2 which then you flip but you can add more for smoother animations. Back then I dont think 3DS had a renderer so they probably needed to find a 3rd party solution to render their models, nowadays its mostly all integrated because every company bought every company

To continue the spritesheet conversation, I have worked on games that rendered 3D into 2D sprites AND have done a couple of textureless projects. Heres some assets from a cancelled mobile game

These are elemental variants for the enemies in our game. We had a barebones art team. One Art Director/Lead Artist/concept/environment artist (meee), one Animator/Renderer/Rigger guru (who went to Blizzard right after and now Niantic), one character modeler and one env modeler/vfx artist. So, SMALL ASS TEAM, in order to make the game we came up with a pipeline that only had two angles front and back) and no textures of any kind, it was all handled through shaders and straight up adding color to the models. This freed up the production pipeline enormously to the point we could even add a weapon mask to our character renders so we were able to have swappable weapons

For environments, we leveraged our strengths. Im a pretty damn fast 2D artist and we had a pretty fast zbrush artist at work. I had already figured out the tiling tech we were going to need and had the look of the game approved so I needed assets FAST so we came up with a pipeline that would work for everyone. Concept from me, he models the shit out of it without textures, makes a giant grayscale render with Ambient Occlusion baked in, I take that to Photoshop and paint it out.

040bdb_3771552d2244484686f5209d58f69738~mv2_d_2171_1211_s_2.webp


End result was pretty damn good so thats how we built the rest of the game, this is our ice level tile set and below some ingame screenshots showing how easy you can make diverse layouts with it.


And thats just one way to do things, another example is the upcoming Steambirds Alliance by Spryfox. The game has been in dev for a while and when I came in was struggling because of its 2D tileset. I was asked to come up with a 3D pipeline that would make the game resonate with potential publishers and ... shit, Im just one guy so, again, the last thing I wanted to do was texture every.single.thing in the game! Its a huge game, a goddamn MMO Roguelike SHMUP (and its awesome!)

Another big problem was that big sprite cause big demands from performance. People dont know this but polygons are MUCH cheaper than textures, so if you want your game to perform better on low end device, take a look at your texture budget and find ways to optimize that shit.

So, solutions, get rid of the sprites and have no textures! We were using Unity and Unity for PC has some sweet sweet solutions that can make your game look "artsy af on purpose" by doing the following
  • fog
  • multiple lights, allowing for cast shadows and colorways
  • ambient color separate from the other lights
  • realtime ambient occlusion
  • depth of field
So I used all those things (except DoP, we couldnt fit that one in) and I colored the assets in Maya by coloring their vertices. Now, you may or may not know what the fuck a vertex is. Its the "dot" on a 3D model, here

3D_mesh_components.jpg


And guess what you can do with that shit, you can PAINT IT

bRRFA.png


The color originates at the vertex until it reaches the next one. Based on the number of vertices on a given model, the painting will look more or less detailed, if its too low poly gradients tend to look pretty bad.

Anyways, to test the theory I made some mockups and prototypes. This is a mix of a 3D render with 2D on top

high_concept_05.jpg


Parallax test to see the "level up" from 2D to 3D

3d_test.gif


and tiling tests to see if we could make a giant 3D world with a non crazy number of tiles (given the FOV in the game these models had to be pretty tall)

tiled_terrain_06.jpg


SO, how does it look? Heres some comparison shots from the old to the new look. This was before I left two years ago, the game has made more visual strides since, btw! I was just there for 6 ish months to help set the new direction.

ice_dungeon.jpg


beach.jpg


highmountains.jpg


And some cooler standalone shots, all the colors in the model are handled by painting the vertices

5-19-2017-military.jpg


5-29-2017-tank.jpg


march22_17_03.jpg


5-30-2017-forest.jpg


feb19_17_01.jpg


5-30-2017-bomboss.jpg


The flat colors combine really well with the ambient light, colored fog, AO, traditional VFX etc to create what I think was a pretty unique look. Even now 2 years after I left the look has stayed mostly the same which is a good indication that it holds up


Another great post. I agree that the flat colors and shading grant it a timeless look. Thank you for the insight on your workflow!

Do you think Square also followed the "color the vertices" approach for their un-textured 3D assets in the 90s? I'm not sure if that would be the same as Gouraud Shading.

Tying this post to the other automation-post, did you have to create any automated process from scratch in order to make your life easier or did you leverage already-existing options in your software suite?
 

Pottuvoi

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,065
Took a quick look for environment maps used in OoT and ran into this Cutting Room Floor page: https://tcrf.net/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Ocarina_of_Time/Unused_Textures

Apparently this little 16x16 texture was used for most reflection in OoT and Mario 64, lol:
OoT_Unused_Jelly_Enemy-Texture.png


I had UE4 open so I threw the image in there and tried to come up with a really simple material using it and I can kinda see something starting to resemble?

Pretty sure the classic way to use environment maps was just shift UV from center to x&y directions depending on vertexes normals in viewport.

This caused spheres to show the image as is.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,909
Another great post. I agree that the flat colors and shading grant it a timeless look. Thank you for the insight on your workflow!

Do you think Square also followed the "color the vertices" approach for their un-textured 3D assets in the 90s? I'm not sure if that would be the same as Gouraud Shading.

Tying this post to the other automation-post, did you have to create any automated process from scratch in order to make your life easier or did you leverage already-existing options in your software suite?

Goraud shading comes free since its textureless but it can also expose shitty models. Early 3D games really had no choice since textures were sooo expensive but the only reason they hold up now is by happy accident. Its not something you want to replicate unless you have a very specific idea in mind.

For the color, you just give the default material a color and assign it to the mesh so Cloud in VII probably had his model be a bunch of separate meshes combined together ...and I say probably because that was made 10 years before I joined the industry so theres a lot of gaps there for me as well, some stuff carries over but a lot doesnt.

Processes yes, well thats funny. You are referring to Tools, thats the term. Thing is, we ALL want tools to make things easier and faster but tools are typically the one thing that we can never get in the budget. Technical Artists are the people that make tools for you and every team, usually has ONE if theyre lucky. Its REALLY hard to sell the higher ups on giving time to make tools because its not sexy stuff, they see that time better spent in making the game not, you know, making tools to make the game making easier. Look up most games postmortems on gamasutra and you usually find the "wish we had more time for tools" paragraph. Why do you think PS3 games suddenly were super expensive to make and took forever? Because the tools necessary for high res 3D production were NOT available for a LONG time! Anything made for low poly PS2 days was useless and instead people used the same pipelines from the PS2 era and it nearly fucked everyone up, hell, Japan took a LONG time to recover, Squaresoft finally NOW has good production tools.

To give you the example Im dealing with right now. In our game we use Unity, 2 years ago Unity did NOT have a way to make cinematics so you needed to download a Cinematics Tool from the assets tore. Ok, we get it but it doesnt like, work by default, you know? Its Open Source thankfully so we fuck with it and get it to work because mind you, the tool itself is still in development and gets updated every now and then. The tool itself has steep limitations such as no camera tracking so if I want the camera to circle a character I have to do it by hand instead of setting a track for the camera to circle around a designated target. That is too much work for our tools department to add to the app so IO make do in the meantime. 2 years later Unity adds their OWN cinematics tool AND it has camera tracking! The problem is ... we cant use it because ALL of our cinematics have been done in the other app and they wouldnt work with the new one AND it is lacking some features the old app DOES have so we are stuck in the middle waiting for the right time to incorporate the new one ... meaning that I will have to use BOTH in the future which ... kinda sucks! Good for job security but it doesnt exactly make life faster or easier. I have like 3 more paragraphs of content regarding the damn cinematics tool (because its also full of bugs that we can only fix one at a time because the tech guy also has other shit to do) but thats one example for you. Tools usually have to be made in-house from scratch and when you dont then you better hope you use an engine people make apps for that you can use and edit otherwise theres a ton of shit your game wont be able to do, even simple shit like "do you want your characters head to always turn and face the enemy they interact with" thats tools. Do you want a setup that removes 6 hours from rigging a character? Thats tools.
 
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OP
Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
Goraud shading comes free since its textureless but it can also expose shitty models. Early 3D games really had no choice since textures were sooo expensive but the only reason they hold up now is by happy accident. Its not something you want to replicate unless you have a very specific idea in mind.

For the color, you just give the default material a color and assign it to the mesh so Cloud in VII probably had his model be a bunch of separate meshes combined together ...and I say probably because that was made 10 years before I joined the industry so theres a lot of gaps there for me as well, some stuff carries over but a lot doesnt.

Processes yes, well thats funny. You are referring to Tools, thats the term. Thing is, we ALL want tools to make things easier and faster but tools are typically the one thing that we can never get in the budget. Technical Artists are the people that make tools for you and every team, usually has ONE if theyre lucky. Its REALLY hard to sell the higher ups on giving time to make tools because its not sexy stuff, they see that time better spent in making the game not, you know, making tools to make the game making easier. Look up most games postmortems on gamasutra and you usually find the "wish we had more time for tools" paragraph. Why do you think PS3 games suddenly were super expensive to make and took forever? Because the tools necessary for high res 3D production were NOT available for a LONG time! Anything made for low poly PS2 days was useless and instead people used the same pipelines from the PS2 era and it nearly fucked everyone up, hell, Japan took a LONG time to recover, Squaresoft finally NOW has good production tools.

To give you the example Im dealing with right now. In our game we use Unity, 2 years ago Unity did NOT have a way to make cinematics so you needed to download a Cinematics Tool from the assets tore. Ok, we get it but it doesnt like, work by default, you know? Its Open Source thankfully so we fuck with it and get it to work because mind you, the tool itself is still in development and gets updated every now and then. The tool itself has steep limitations such as no camera tracking so if I want the camera to circle a character I have to do it by hand instead of setting a track for the camera to circle around a designated target. That is too much work for our tools department to add to the app so IO make do in the meantime. 2 years later Unity adds their OWN cinematics tool AND it has camera tracking! The problem is ... we cant use it because ALL of our cinematics have been done in the other app and they wouldnt work with the new one AND it is lacking some features the old app DOES have so we are stuck in the middle waiting for the right time to incorporate the new one ... meaning that I will have to use BOTH in the future which ... kinda sucks! Good for job security but it doesnt exactly make life faster or easier. I have like 3 more paragraphs of content regarding the damn cinematics tool (because its also full of bugs that we can only fix one at a time because the tech guy also has other shit to do) but thats one example for you. Tools usually have to be made in-house from scratch and when you dont then you better hope you use an engine people make apps for that you can use and edit otherwise theres a ton of shit your game wont be able to do, even simple shit like "do you want your characters head to always turn and face the enemy they interact with" thats tools. Do you want a setup that removes 6 hours from rigging a character? Thats tools.

Thanks again.

1- Yes, the "HD era" bit us a decade ago. Things looked "better", but required much more time (and money) to build. We even saw reductions in scope (see Final Fantasy XIII) as a way to probably mitigate the impact in time and cost. I'm just glad that Japan in particular finally figured it out...although it was by buying Unreal Engine 4 this gen instead of keep throwing money at their own in-house tools.

2- Thanks for the correction. I also work in the digital services industry, but more focused in UX, creative, front-end/back-end and content - production workflows. There are very mature tools for all of these though, so even when we experiment or automate via current or custom tools, it´s usually done to optimize the process, not to make it "work". Your current scenario is a complicated one, if management doesnt see a direct correlation between the desired tool or system, and the eventual impact, it will probably not get approved. I have found out ways to streamline this "I really need this: see here and understand why" approach, but its not the same industry. Even when something "extra" does get approved, you run the risk of something better (like the new Unity-provided cinematic module) being available, but not compatible with your previous effort.

Pre-planing and risk management can foresee some of those scenarios but with such a small team, I completely understand your frustration.
 
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Dash Kappei

Member
Nov 1, 2017
4,842
Great thread.
I've been lucky enough ( = I'm old as fuck) to have worked on plenty of SGI workstations and I well remember getting my Alias|Wavefront certification, the advent of SoftImage (I still have all the books from iirc 1.4 edition) revolutionizing the animation space and then integrating the almighty Mental Ray; then Maya changing everything again and the industry kinda looking down on 3DSMax just for it to become a serious player and changing the landscape forever in bringing CGI to the "masses" and to affordable home computers which would result in the demise of SGI.
 
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Leo-Tyrant

Leo-Tyrant

Member
Jan 14, 2019
5,095
San Jose, Costa Rica
Great thread.
I've been lucky enough ( = I'm old as fuck) to have worked on plenty of SGI workstations and I well remember getting my Alias|Wavefront certification, the advent of SoftImage (I still have all the books from iirc 1.4 edition) revolutionizing the animation space and then integrating the almighty Mental Ray; then Maya changing everything again and the industry kinda looking down on 3DSMax just for it to become a serious player and changing the landscape forever in bringing CGI to the "masses" and to affordable home computers which would result in the demise of SGI.

What was your personal favorite software suite back in those days?

Also: interesting video about the AI in Goldeneye:

 
Nov 23, 2017
4,302
Took a quick look for environment maps used in OoT and ran into this Cutting Room Floor page: https://tcrf.net/The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Ocarina_of_Time/Unused_Textures

Apparently this little 16x16 texture was used for most reflection in OoT and Mario 64, lol:
OoT_Unused_Jelly_Enemy-Texture.png


I had UE4 open so I threw the image in there and tried to come up with a really simple material using it and I can kinda see something starting to resemble?

How does that really really tiny non shiny image become "useful" for making those nice n64 reflections (which I also love)? Seems like it would just tile 1000s of times on a model?
 

Aaronmac

Member
Nov 12, 2017
554
How does that really really tiny non shiny image become "useful" for making those nice n64 reflections (which I also love)? Seems like it would just tile 1000s of times on a model?

It's likely that Tain is using a simple reflection vector node within UE4's material system to sample the small reflection texture. The reflection vector goes by the surface normal, and across large flat surfaces the distortion will be so significant that the chances of the texture tiling many times are very slim (but can still happen at certain angles, and you can actually see it in the provided gif for short amounts of time). It works excellently for emulating old school reflections like this!
 

7thFloor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,646
U.S.
I just found this Japanese artist/dev on twitter that's done a fantastic job imitating PS1 graphics (albeit nicer looking)

D_7plOEVAAEAKUa


EAFPAAbU4AAbfwC


EACNob6U4AA3jTf


D_2FdINU4AADZhn


D_tnxbcUEAAozVt
 

Accoun

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,905
Yeah, shared those on a few Discords before. From what I understand, they want to make a game with those, so whatever they do - I'm up for it.