How SUVs conquered the world – at the expense of its climate

[ItchyTasty]

I know everyone who drives a SUV is a selfish prick. Both due to the climate and because they'll crush everyone else in a crash.

I take the bike or use public transport, the car has no place in a modern city.

 

[SeanMN]

No justification for them.

I hate seeing people twist themselves in knots trying to justify owning an suv/truck. It as if we couldn't drive on snow 30 yrs ago or carry kids in a car, or do the shopping.

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Sure, but they were a much smaller percentage of the market. According to google, only 7% of new vehicles sold in 1990 were SUVs in the US.

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I'd agree with this. Before you had only the people that needed them were buying them. Now that SUV's are just lifted hatchbacks and wagons, everyone is buying them, because they no longer drive like trucks and average 15mpg.

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Mass market "small" SUVs in general were very limited at the time, and weren't really introduced till the mid to late 80s, with vehicles like the Bronco II, Pathfinder, and 4Runner. These didn't really catch on big till the Explorer in 1991.

A critical piece of data not being discussed in this thread is that the unibody "crossover" SUV didn't even exist as a vehicle category 30 years ago. The RAV4 arrived in the US in 1995 and was the first.

These vehicles were a big departure from the traditional big bulky body on frame SUVs of the time. Offering handling and fuel economy closer to a car, while offering more storage and better driving in challenging conditions.

Other makers followed in the late 90s testing the market, initially with small/compact models. It wasn't till the 2000s that the midsized 3 row seating models started to come out.

Many of the station wagons at the time were body on frame, with big engines and got poor gas mileage. There were some unibody wagons in the 90s (like the Taurus wagon) but other than the Outback, they didn't have awd like this new bread of suv.

This also comes at a time when new safety regulations and requirements for child safety seats are introduced, such as the LATCH system which was required for all cars and carseats after 2002.

 

[FliX]

Humans seem to be yes...

 

[Possum Armada]

Mass market "small" SUVs in general were very limited at the time, and weren't really introduced till the mid to late 80s, with vehicles like the Bronco II, Pathfinder, and 4Runner. These didn't really catch on big till the Explorer in 1991.

A critical piece of data not being discussed in this thread is that the unibody "crossover" SUV didn't even exist as a vehicle category 30 years ago. The RAV4 arrived in the US in 1995 and was the first.

These vehicles were a big departure from the traditional big bulky body on frame SUVs of the time. Offering handling and fuel economy closer to a car, while offering more storage and better driving in challenging conditions.

Other makers followed in the late 90s testing the market, initially with small/compact models. It wasn't till the 2000s that the midsized 3 row seating models started to come out.

Many of the station wagons at the time were body on frame, with big engines and got poor gas mileage. There were some unibody wagons in the 90s (like the Taurus wagon) but other than the Outback, they didn't have awd like this new bread of suv.

This also comes at a time when new safety regulations and requirements for child safety seats are introduced, such as the LATCH system which was required for all cars and carseats after 2002.

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This is an excellent post.

 

[Lmo2017]

Crossovers should really be their own category. They're basically wagons/minivans masquerading as SUVs.

 

[bremon]

Is "SUV" on era a blanket term for crossovers as well? If so... I don't imagine Ford Escapes and other small unibody crossovers with 1.x litre turbo engines are worse for the environment than the gross wagons everyone on the internet and nobody in day to day life lament the death of.

"30 years ago we didn't need such large vehicles!"... 30 years ago vehicles had half the gears they have now at best, and body on frame was not hard to find.

I can understand lamenting the existence of body on frame SUVs; Suburbans, Yukons, Expeditions, etc. are all huge and wasteful but throwing crossovers into the pile seems unintelligent.

One is body on frame with a V8, one is unibody with a smaller engine and lighter weight. People can't afford multiple vehicles so generally buy the most utility they can afford, which for most people seems to be crossovers. Basically a sedan hatchback with more storage space and gets your ass higher off the ground. More and more models are hybrid and being released as electric in the future so the problem seems to be in the process of being solved. Not quickly enough, sure, but these aren't the lumbering dinosaurs of the late 90s and early 00s that bankrupted GM.

 

[BMW]

"I don't have imagination beyond horsepower so I'll just soup up my boring family car"

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Couldn't be more wrong.

 

[skeptem]

how is a minivan different from an SUV aside from style?

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I agree with this as someone who just bought a minivan. A 3 row SUV gets the same roughly the same mileage as a minvan, though less storage.

I think it's more about the aesthetic as a detractor than anything. I would say that people without big families don't buy minivans, but I see/know plenty of people who are just single or even a couple, with large SUVs.

 

[secretanchitman]

I'm pretty much the same. I couldn't find a suitable wagon after my 2004 Saturn L300 wagon died. I settled for a Suzuki SX4, an AWD hatchback which I love, but still miss having a wagon.

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I wanted the BMW 330i xDrive Wagon but my love for manual won out in the end so I ended up getting a coupe instead!

 

[Lv99 Slacker]

I don't have a vehicle at the moment, but electric SUV's like the Rivian R1S, Nissan Ariya, and Cadillac's Lyriq definitely interest me.

 

[SmartBase]

Couldn't be more wrong.

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Still just going to be a dork in an SUV.

 

[Gulfwarvet]

Bmw x3 xdrive 30e on order as my company car. Due January. Cant wair for some decent seats again.

 

[LakeEarth]

And if you're looking to buy a compact car, your options are getting shorter and shorter every year.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

I drive an F150 XLT 4 door that I get through work. It drives really nice but man does it suck up gas (company pays for gas). I do much of my work out of it though and am idling alot. I definitely wouldn't buy one for my personal vehicle

We have a 2015 Toyota Sienna mini-van that my wife drives, nice car and lots of room inside

 

[skeptem]

And if you're looking to buy a compact car, your options are getting shorter and shorter every year.

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This is true, but there are also some great options still out there for affordable, just look at Hyundai.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

Mass market "small" SUVs in general were very limited at the time, and weren't really introduced till the mid to late 80s, with vehicles like the Bronco II, Pathfinder, and 4Runner. These didn't really catch on big till the Explorer in 1991.

A critical piece of data not being discussed in this thread is that the unibody "crossover" SUV didn't even exist as a vehicle category 30 years ago. The RAV4 arrived in the US in 1995 and was the first.

These vehicles were a big departure from the traditional big bulky body on frame SUVs of the time. Offering handling and fuel economy closer to a car, while offering more storage and better driving in challenging conditions.

Other makers followed in the late 90s testing the market, initially with small/compact models. It wasn't till the 2000s that the midsized 3 row seating models started to come out.

Many of the station wagons at the time were body on frame, with big engines and got poor gas mileage. There were some unibody wagons in the 90s (like the Taurus wagon) but other than the Outback, they didn't have awd like this new bread of suv.

This also comes at a time when new safety regulations and requirements for child safety seats are introduced, such as the LATCH system which was required for all cars and carseats after 2002.

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I would say it was the 84 Cherokee that popularized the compact unibody SUV segment.

 

[LakeEarth]

This is true, but there are also some great options still out there for affordable, just look at Hyundai.

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It's just venting because of some frustration when I was in the market for a new car in 2018. My father is a retired Chrysler worker, which means I get a discount if I buy from them, but they've completely abandoned the small car market.

I ended up going with a Chevy Cruze, which they then discontinued later that year.

 

[SP.]

Shitty and misleading article. The worlds most popular "SUVs" are no less efficient than a sedan these days.

 

[Deleted member 10612]

Don't own a car, but would love to have an EV SUV in the future. Takes as much paking space as a limousine and is , all things considered, better for the environment then a diesel city car.

 

[skeptem]

It's just venting because of some frustration when I was in the market for a new car in 2018. My father is a retired Chrysler worker, which means I get a discount if I buy from them, but they've completely abandoned the small car market.

I ended up going with a Chevy Cruze, which they then discontinued later that year.

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Pour one out for Lordstown

 

[Deleted member 17092]

It's just venting because of some frustration when I was in the market for a new car in 2018. My father is a retired Chrysler worker, which means I get a discount if I buy from them, but they've completely abandoned the small car market.

I ended up going with a Chevy Cruze, which they then discontinued later that year.

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Yeah it was pretty misguided if them imo to abandon the 200 and Dart platform, which I wouldn't even call small cars. They should have done an EV/hybrid platform with those cars. I guess they have Fiat? Tbh I don't even see how FCA hits EPA guidelines. They pretty much only sell V6s and V8s.

 

[mikeamizzle]

Yeah it was pretty misguided if them imo to abandon the 200 and Dart platform, which I wouldn't even call small cars. They should have done an EV/hybrid platform with those cars. I guess they have Fiat? Tbh I don't even see how FCA hits EPA guidelines. They pretty much only sell V6s and V8s.

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Fiat is a disaster artist.

what a miserable company.

 

[Lion]

Shitty and misleading article. The worlds most popular "SUVs" are no less efficient than a sedan these days.

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It is aerodynamically impossible for your statement to be true.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

imagine owning a car in 2020

 

[Cookie]

imagine owning a car in 2020

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This is a joke, right?

 

[SeanMN]

I would say it was the 84 Cherokee that popularized the compact unibody SUV segment.

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I think it'd be better to say Jeep introduced the unibody SUV to the segment. In the grand scheme of SUVs I don't think it had the sales impact of the Explorer in popularizing the "small - midsized" SUV or the industry impact the Rav4 had in popularizing the unibody SUV. And while it was unibody construction, it still featured traditional truck underpinnings such as solid axles rather than independent suspension.

 

[Davilmar]

I'm driving my parents old SUV, but it's a tough habit to break when everyone has one. Combine with terrible roads and often going on roads. Will consider a hybrid or smaller car when I actually buy my first vehicle.

 

[turbobrick]

Mass market "small" SUVs in general were very limited at the time, and weren't really introduced till the mid to late 80s, with vehicles like the Bronco II, Pathfinder, and 4Runner. These didn't really catch on big till the Explorer in 1991.

A critical piece of data not being discussed in this thread is that the unibody "crossover" SUV didn't even exist as a vehicle category 30 years ago. The RAV4 arrived in the US in 1995 and was the first.

These vehicles were a big departure from the traditional big bulky body on frame SUVs of the time. Offering handling and fuel economy closer to a car, while offering more storage and better driving in challenging conditions.

Other makers followed in the late 90s testing the market, initially with small/compact models. It wasn't till the 2000s that the midsized 3 row seating models started to come out.

Many of the station wagons at the time were body on frame, with big engines and got poor gas mileage. There were some unibody wagons in the 90s (like the Taurus wagon) but other than the Outback, they didn't have awd like this new bread of suv.

This also comes at a time when new safety regulations and requirements for child safety seats are introduced, such as the LATCH system which was required for all cars and carseats after 2002.

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Yeah. Crossovers being car based is really what made them popular. You got the larger size but without the drawbacks.

I will say that most station wagons were not body on frame, unless you're talking about old american wagons from the early 80s and older. I think most of them probably disappeared in the 70s.

Just about all of the European and Japanese station wagons were standard unibody construction with 4 or 6 cyl engines. They were just wagon variants of the cars, and the fuel economy was about the same. I currently own two 80s wagons, an 83 Datsun Maxima and an 86 Volvo 240, and they were definitely modern for time they were released.

I would say it was the 84 Cherokee that popularized the compact unibody SUV segment.

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Yeah, I think it was one of the first smaller SUV's that was popular. Growing up my dad had an 85 cherokee, and besides the garbage GM engine it had, it was a decent vehicle. Though it was still fairly traditional SUV like despite being a unibody, considering it had solid front and rear axels, a proper 4WD system, and drove like a truck.

 

[jotun?]

I have a Kia Niro which is marketed as a small SUV. It gets 50+ MPG. Huge difference between something like that and a Suburban

 

[bremon]

I drive an F150 XLT 4 door that I get through work. It drives really nice but man does it suck up gas (company pays for gas). I do much of my work out of it though and am idling alot. I definitely wouldn't buy one for my personal vehicle

We have a 2015 Toyota Sienna mini-van that my wife drives, nice car and lots of room inside

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I drive an extended cab Silverado 1500. Mileage could be better but the idling is the killer. I try to keep it off if I'm doing paperwork etc., and I think the most recent trucks have auto start/stop now which should help as well, I'm trying to hold out for at least a hybrid.

It sometimes feels disappointing to see so many pickups used solely as large cars for grocery trips and taking kids to sports practice etc. I know a white collar couple with an F-150 raptor used solely for grocery trips and going to the golf course.

 

[mikeamizzle]

It sometimes feels disappointing to see so many pickups used solely as large cars for grocery trips and taking kids to sports practice etc. I know a white collar couple with an F-150 raptor used solely for grocery trips and going to the golf course.

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At least theyre not driving a heavy duty truck like a F-250 i guess lol (people around here driving their dually's to the office)

It is mind blowing how many people by F-150's and Tacoma's though.

 

[Sems4arsenal]

People want them cause they're safer and they Don't get damaged on speed bumbs.

 

[DanSensei]

You know, people love Jurassic Park so much, but I don't really like it so much because the Ford Explorer product placement in it kicked off the SUV boom.

 

[turbobrick]

At least theyre not driving a heavy duty truck like a F-250 i guess lol (people around here driving their dually's to the office)

It is mind blowing how many people by F-150's and Tacoma's though.

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Remember when the Tacoma used to be a small pickup? Remember when small pickups even existed? Its a shame you really can't get a small pickup anymore, at least not in the US.

 

[thesoapster]

People want them cause they're safer and they Don't get damaged on speed bumbs.

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Slightly safer for head-on, worse for basically everything else because they topple much easier.

 

[bremon]

At least theyre not driving a heavy duty truck like a F-250 i guess lol (people around here driving their dually's to the office)

It is mind blowing how many people by F-150's and Tacoma's though.

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I can't imagine a raptor is much more fuel efficient than an F250 to be honest. And as someone who normally drives gas F350 crew cabs with 8' boxes at work... I'm aware that they are horrendous on fuel.

The amount of people who buy too much truck is just... incredible. I understand that cheap gas and volume incentives make half tons look like a good deal compared to a mid size but... the math just isn't there if you look into it at all. I've worked construction using my half ton for ten years, and my next truck will likely be a midsize. I just absolutely need to have a 6'2"+ box.

I enjoy the utility I get out of my truck because it makes me money. If it didn't, it would just be an expense like any other monthly cost of living expense, and I would be looking to claw it back the same way I try to save money on my cell phone and internet lol.

Remember when the Tacoma used to be a small pickup? Remember when small pickups even existed? Its a shame you really can't get a small pickup anymore, at least not in the US.

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Ford has a new unibody pickup on the way slotting in under the Ranger. Basically like the Honda Ridgeline. If they have success with it I'm sure GM will follow in half a decade. Maybe an electric Sonoma or S-10 could be in the future. As it is a hybrid Ranger or Colorado is what I'm hoping for in a few years. Those trucks are already the size a 1500 was in the 90s.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

Remember when the Tacoma used to be a small pickup? Remember when small pickups even existed? Its a shame you really can't get a small pickup anymore, at least not in the US.

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I think it's kind of that SUVs have sort of taken over the small pickup market. When you have 70cu ft of cargo space in the back and nicer 5 passenger seating the small pickup isn't very appealing.

 

[turbobrick]

I think it's kind of that SUVs have sort of taken over the small pickup market. When you have 70cu ft of cargo space in the back and nicer 5 passenger seating the small pickup isn't very appealing.

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Yeah, but I also realize I'm part of the almost non-existent group of people that would buy a small single cab pickup. If/when I end up getting a pickup, its probably going to be 20+ years old.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

But yeah I'm actually guilty here owning a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Decent hwy mileage but man does it suck up gas in the city.

 

[Darren Lamb]

I know that there is a use case for trucks and SUVs but what is the main reason people see them as a necessity now vs. 40 years ago? Is it mostly that we're getting fatter, or wagon/mini van options have been less over time? Is it purely for convenience? I understand that many people like the option of more space but we all managed to get around with smaller cars before.

I would be more aggressive about phasing out ICE engines, too, especially expensive ones. I can see the argument for keeping production going for more years on the Corolla Hybrid since it's cheap and relatively efficient but why you can get an ICE SUV from Mercedes for 131k that gets 15mpg eludes me. We have property tax based on MSRP in MA but there should be a climate nihilist tax for people who have the means to go electric and refuse, or businesses should not be able sell vehicles that inefficient and expensive

 

[Sems4arsenal]

Slightly safer for head-on, worse for basically everything else because they topple much easier.

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The average Joe doesn't know that

 

[Cookie]

I know that there is a use case for trucks and SUVs but what is the main reason people see them as a necessity now vs. 40 years ago? Is it mostly that we're getting fatter, or wagon/mini van options have been less over time? Is it purely for convenience? I understand that many people like the option of more space but we all managed to get around with smaller cars before.

I would be more aggressive about phasing out ICE engines, too, especially expensive ones. I can see the argument for keeping production going for more years on the Corolla Hybrid since it's cheap and relatively efficient but why you can get an ICE SUV from Mercedes for 131k that gets 15mpg eludes me. We have property tax based on MSRP in MA but there should be a climate nihilist tax for people who have the means to go electric and refuse, or businesses should not be able sell vehicles that inefficient and expensive

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Change the topic and your first paragraph could be used for literally any technology that we use more today.

"Why do people need $1000 smartphones? People did fine staying in contact with one home phone 20 years ago"

 

[turbobrick]

I know that there is a use case for trucks and SUVs but what is the main reason people see them as a necessity now vs. 40 years ago? Is it mostly that we're getting fatter, or wagon/mini van options have been less over time? Is it purely for convenience? I understand that many people like the option of more space but we all managed to get around with smaller cars before.

I would be more aggressive about phasing out ICE engines, too, especially expensive ones. I can see the argument for keeping production going for more years on the Corolla Hybrid since it's cheap and relatively efficient but why you can get an ICE SUV from Mercedes for 131k that gets 15mpg eludes me. We have property tax based on MSRP in MA but there should be a climate nihilist tax for people who have the means to go electric and refuse, or businesses should not be able sell vehicles that inefficient and expensive

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The problem is, electric cars just aren't at the level of ICE cars yet. They're improving every year, but they're not there yet.

Also I think the number of people buying $100k+ vehicles is so small it makes no difference. Just like all those high end luxury/performance vehicles, their production numbers are so little that I bet they have little effect. I assume you're talking about the Mercedes G-wagon, if so more people in the US buy a pickup truck each day than Mercedes sells G-wagons in a whole year.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

I know that there is a use case for trucks and SUVs but what is the main reason people see them as a necessity now vs. 40 years ago? Is it mostly that we're getting fatter, or wagon/mini van options have been less over time? Is it purely for convenience? I understand that many people like the option of more space but we all managed to get around with smaller cars before.

I would be more aggressive about phasing out ICE engines, too, especially expensive ones. I can see the argument for keeping production going for more years on the Corolla Hybrid since it's cheap and relatively efficient but why you can get an ICE SUV from Mercedes for 131k that gets 15mpg eludes me. We have property tax based on MSRP in MA but there should be a climate nihilist tax for people who have the means to go electric and refuse, or businesses should not be able sell vehicles that inefficient and expensive

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I can't speak for everyone but for me it's I need a lot of cargo space for camping, currently tent camping but I just put the towing package on there as I plan on buying a camper next spring. So basically need good cargo and towing capacity and don't really want a pick-up.

 

[Rotkehle]

A Chevy Equinox 2020 has 28 city / 39 highway MPG, while a Volkswagen Golf 2020 is 29 city / 35 highway. They are practically the same.

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As a golf 7 1.2l TSI driver I call bullshit on those numbers. I really have to get the pedal on every signal to get to 8 l/100kmh or 29mpg.
It's more about 6 l/100km in city and 5 l/100km on Highway. And 8 l/100km at around 140kmh.

 

[turbobrick]

As a golf 7 1.2l TSI driver I call bullshit on those numbers. I really have to get the pedal on every signal to get to 8 l/100kmh or 29mpg.
It's more about 6 l/100km in city and 5 l/100km on Highway. And 8 l/100km at around 140kmh.

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In the US the smallest engine the Golf comes with is the 1.4L TSI, which is rated at 28 city 36 highway

 

[ItchyTasty]

This is a joke, right?

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Well, where I live it would cost more to own a car than to rent one for potential roadtrips. Getting to work is cheaper with public transport than with a car. Finding a parking space is both super expensive and hard.

America as I understand it is built around driving but that definitely isn't the case in my city.

 

[Deleted member 17092]

As a golf 7 1.2l TSI driver I call bullshit on those numbers. I really have to get the pedal on every signal to get to 8 l/100kmh or 29mpg.
It's more about 6 l/100km in city and 5 l/100km on Highway. And 8 l/100km at around 140kmh.

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US golfs are probably running a 1.4/1.8/2.0T, but yeah I'd say generally even the 1.8T does 25 city.

Issue too with turbos, and I don't care if VW says running 87 is fine, it's really not as you lose performance, mileage, and need more frequent oil changes. Premium in the US is like a 50% price increase so I realize consumption wise I'm being a dick but wallet wise there isn't a huge difference between running an NA V6 or even a V8 vs smaller cars with turbos that are still fun to drive vs something with NA 300hp or so. I can even run E85 which is dirt cheap at least where I'm at and 20mpg highway and with my handheld tuner thats 340hp. If I'm paying 2x the gallon for 93 gas it's basically like I'm getting 40mpg with a 2.0 turbo.

 

[Darren Lamb]

Change the topic and your first paragraph could be used for literally any technology that we use more today.

"Why do people need $1000 smartphones? People did fine staying in contact with one home phone 20 years ago"

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That's not a great analogy, imo. The fundamentals of how/why we use cars have changed significantly less than how we communicate and use the internet. Still gotta get places somehow.

The problem is, electric cars just aren't at the level of ICE cars yet. They're improving every year, but they're not there yet.

Also I think the number of people buying $100k+ vehicles is so small it makes no difference. Just like all those high end luxury/performance vehicles, their production numbers are so little that I bet they have little effect. I assume you're talking about the Mercedes G-wagon, if so more people in the US buy a pickup truck each day than Mercedes sells G-wagons in a whole year.

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Yeah I brought the G-wagon up as an example of something that should be discouraged, agree with you that it's not a large contributor to the problem.

The next year or so will see the release of a lot of EVs that will satisfy the needs of most, I think. The VW ID.4, Ariya, Model Y, are all crossovers that will have fast charging and ranges of 300 miles+ for the upper models.

 

[Desi]

Everything has gotten bigger over the years; we see it in mean size, house square foot size, clothing size, and also in vehicles. So of course when we cars got too long they just raised them a bit and now you got the Crossover. When I had a 94 5 Series it was shorter than a 2012 3 Series. I know an SUV or Crossover is not for me simply because my house was built in the late '30s and has a built-in single car garage in the basement. Nothing a foot or so higher than a Soul is going to fit in that.

When I sold cars at a dealership for about a year or so, I sold so many crossovers and SUVs. You can explain the benefits of a sedan, wagon, minivan but at the end of the day, someone is going to be looking at something in their driveway for four-six years. I love wagons but most don't think they are "cool". So they buy something bigger with more slopes and lines which most of the time was a Crossover. Now to me, the majority of them look hideous besides a few like the Jeep Renegade (cute little toy) and the Kia Soul, which I have and actually seems to classify as a Wagon but whatever.