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How strong was Bruce Lee?
- Thread starter fireflame
- Start date
It's not completely irrelevant but it's also ridiculous to pretend that it's always a determining factor; things like skill, speed, and fighting style can make all the difference. Royce Gracie proved that time and time again
Spoiler alert - Gracie makes quick work of a man 3x his size.
Lols
It's just simple physics. Force = mass x acceleration. If Mike Tyson is 100kg and Bruce Lee 65kg all things being equal Lee's arm acceleration would need to be ~41% faster to generate the same amount of force as Tyson. And that doesn't even take into consideration the ability of a 100kg v 65kg body to absorb that force.
Maths:
Tyson: at 100kg (220lbs) has an arm mass of ~7.59kg. Assuming he can swing for an acceleration of 84.9 m/s^2 he'd generate a force of 644N.
7.59kg x 84.0m/s^2 = 644N
Lee: at 65kg (140lbs) has a arm mass of ~4.83kg.
4.83kg x acceleration = 644N; acceleration = 133.3
Reference for determining arm mass and punch acceleration constant.
https://www.livestrong.com/article/538379-how-to-measure-force-on-a-punching-bag/
Force of a strike is probably the most useless number that gets constantly brought up in these kinds of arguments
Should we compare who is the better quaterback by weighing them?
Weight matters, but it matters the least in force production. The added mass is way more useful for defense and grappling than for striking offense.
If you want to actually see how strong he was, or get some idea of it, there's a book called The Art of Expressing the Human Body in the "Bruce Lee Library" that goes into his whole workout regimen. It has reproductions of his workout logs and workouts and whatnot. Here's one from 1965, which is in the Amazon excerpts you can look at:
This isn't a particularly compelling counter. We're talking about a different skill set. Specifically the ability to strike another with their arms and causing harm. A quarterback doesn't do that. Plus there's a reason quarterbacks are on average 6'4" and 225lbs - it lets them generate more force however they need to use it.
Regardless, it's a must be true statement because it would violate the laws of physics if it wasn't true (force requires mass). All things being equal means they are equally skilled to give and receive blows (which if we're being picky Tyson should win out on anyway because he's a professional fighter unlike Lee). If two equally skilled fighters exchange blows the fighter with the lesser mass would still have to generate proportionately more acceleration to match the force generated by the higher massed fighter. This of course assumes the same amount of stamina and their bodies to absorb that force equally, but again that's being generous to Lee because in reality it's unlikely he'd have the ability to do that compared to an elite professional boxer 1.5 times his size.
The side issue is whether Lee's fighting style can compensate for his lack of "strength". If he were a grappler (and continuing to ignore the fact that he was not a professional athlete) or some other style designed to over-compensate for lack of raw force generation the argument in favor of him or for discounting raw force would be more compelling, but that's not the case here - they're both standing position fighters.
Maybe he could kick his way to victory? That seems possible, but then you'd really have to start taking the professional athlete v non professional athlete factor into consideration.
The frequent arguments over how tough Bruce Lee was, or even if he could actually fight at all, really takes me back to reading martial arts forums as a teenager. It's making me nostalgic. While I can understand the continued debating on the realistic limits of his martial arts abilities and the associated minutiae, I'm surprised there's still controversy on if he had any real world fighting abilities at all. It reminds me of a quote from Lee that went along the lines of, "If I tell you I'm any good, you'll think I'm boasting. If I tell you I'm no good, you'll know I'm lying." If you learn about Bruce Lee's background you'd know that, although he's not the invincible martial arts god some worship, he could indeed fight.
After he started studying Wing Chun under Ip Man as a teen, he and his peers would regularly get in to fights with practitioners of other Kung Fu styles. The entire reason he initially studied Wing Chun was in order to learn to--you know--fight. He and the other students would test themselves with these sorts of challenge fights regularly. To my knowledge, there isn't really any record of how well he did in these sorts of fights, but he did at least have a not insignificant amount of experience fighting in them. I had also heard he entered into a small boxing tournament that he ultimately won around that time in Hong Kong too, but I never was able to find a good source on it (though it's been many years since I looked). While the details are a little more murky for his time in Hong Kong, that's not so much the case for when he came back over to America when he turned 18.
While he could be a little arrogant at times, he was rather cognizant of his own shortcomings as a martial artist (like Lee saying Ali could easily beat him). This is what actually pushed him to start training so obsessively. This is also when he started to further modify his own personal style of fighting, which resulted in Jun Fan Gung Fu and then Jeet Kune Do. This part is important because I get the impression that a lot of people in this thread think his style of fighting resembled what you saw in his movies (or worse yet, Once Upon a Time...In Hollywood). The real flashy stuff you saw there was largely for show. How he actually fought in real life was very different (though the fight scenes he filmed for the game of Death are a lot closer). By that point, he had already discarded a lot of his kung fu techniques and incorporated far more stuff from boxing, savate, judo, jiujistu, and even western fencing. It bore a closer resemblance to modern MMA than Wing Chun in the end. Sadly, there's not as much footage of this (though there is some), but there are many pictures as well as lots of testimony to this from his former students, friends, and acquaintances. So really in terms of saying Lee couldn't win based on his movie style kung fu, he would actually agree with many of you. That's why he didn't use it much as time went on. If he were still alive today, I have no doubt he'd probably be incorporating stuff like Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiujitsu, and the like into his training too.
That really leaves his physical attributes as the deciding factor. On the upside, his strength and conditioning were really incredible. He also was able to generate a lot of force in his striking. IIRC, somebody described being kicked by him as feeling like being hit by a truck. Lee also had a habit of breaking some of his training equipment from hitting them too hard. Pound-for-pound, he was a really strong fighter. That said, he was around 5'7" and weighed around 140 pounds. As much as everything else he had going for him helps, size and weight do matter. Combat sports have different classes for a reason. As tough as Lee was, he'd still be at a disadvantage to bigger fighters. There's just no getting around that.
I also think it's very important to view Bruce Lee as a martial artist within the context of his time. Back then the more traditional martial arts styles could sometimes be a bit rigid. Forms/kata and other types of more static training were a more common focus. Lee, however, put a heavy emphasis on full contact sparring in order to test what actually works. Practitioners could also be discouraged from training under other styles and teachers. Lee certainly wasn't the first to start cross training in (or you could say "mixing") other arts, but he did help popularize it more. While it's far more common now, most people--particularly here in the US--didn't train like him.
So could Lee fight? Yes. Would he be able to win against X fighter from today? Who knows, but if the fighter is of a similar size and weight to him, I certainly don't think he'd the push over that so many imply.
After he started studying Wing Chun under Ip Man as a teen, he and his peers would regularly get in to fights with practitioners of other Kung Fu styles. The entire reason he initially studied Wing Chun was in order to learn to--you know--fight. He and the other students would test themselves with these sorts of challenge fights regularly. To my knowledge, there isn't really any record of how well he did in these sorts of fights, but he did at least have a not insignificant amount of experience fighting in them. I had also heard he entered into a small boxing tournament that he ultimately won around that time in Hong Kong too, but I never was able to find a good source on it (though it's been many years since I looked). While the details are a little more murky for his time in Hong Kong, that's not so much the case for when he came back over to America when he turned 18.
In actuality, the opposite was true. Lee was soon humbled the more he fought and trained in the US. He found that while his style of fighting was decent enough against guys that were of a similar size in Hong Kong, it didn't work as well against bigger Americans. He also predominantly fought against other kung fu practitioners in Hong Kong. Over here, he encountered people from different arts (i.e. karate, judo, boxing, etc.) that required different strategies. Finally, he realized that his physical conditioning was lacking as well. These were conclusions he made after actual fights he had when he got here, which again was the main reason he continued to study and practice martial arts: to fight--not to look cool for Hollywood.
While he could be a little arrogant at times, he was rather cognizant of his own shortcomings as a martial artist (like Lee saying Ali could easily beat him). This is what actually pushed him to start training so obsessively. This is also when he started to further modify his own personal style of fighting, which resulted in Jun Fan Gung Fu and then Jeet Kune Do. This part is important because I get the impression that a lot of people in this thread think his style of fighting resembled what you saw in his movies (or worse yet, Once Upon a Time...In Hollywood). The real flashy stuff you saw there was largely for show. How he actually fought in real life was very different (though the fight scenes he filmed for the game of Death are a lot closer). By that point, he had already discarded a lot of his kung fu techniques and incorporated far more stuff from boxing, savate, judo, jiujistu, and even western fencing. It bore a closer resemblance to modern MMA than Wing Chun in the end. Sadly, there's not as much footage of this (though there is some), but there are many pictures as well as lots of testimony to this from his former students, friends, and acquaintances. So really in terms of saying Lee couldn't win based on his movie style kung fu, he would actually agree with many of you. That's why he didn't use it much as time went on. If he were still alive today, I have no doubt he'd probably be incorporating stuff like Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiujitsu, and the like into his training too.
That really leaves his physical attributes as the deciding factor. On the upside, his strength and conditioning were really incredible. He also was able to generate a lot of force in his striking. IIRC, somebody described being kicked by him as feeling like being hit by a truck. Lee also had a habit of breaking some of his training equipment from hitting them too hard. Pound-for-pound, he was a really strong fighter. That said, he was around 5'7" and weighed around 140 pounds. As much as everything else he had going for him helps, size and weight do matter. Combat sports have different classes for a reason. As tough as Lee was, he'd still be at a disadvantage to bigger fighters. There's just no getting around that.
I also think it's very important to view Bruce Lee as a martial artist within the context of his time. Back then the more traditional martial arts styles could sometimes be a bit rigid. Forms/kata and other types of more static training were a more common focus. Lee, however, put a heavy emphasis on full contact sparring in order to test what actually works. Practitioners could also be discouraged from training under other styles and teachers. Lee certainly wasn't the first to start cross training in (or you could say "mixing") other arts, but he did help popularize it more. While it's far more common now, most people--particularly here in the US--didn't train like him.
So could Lee fight? Yes. Would he be able to win against X fighter from today? Who knows, but if the fighter is of a similar size and weight to him, I certainly don't think he'd the push over that so many imply.
Not disagreeing, just highlighting how wing chun can be a pretty devastating experience to someone who us unaware of it, especially if that person is well trained. Once we get to the top %1 its a different story.
Thank you, very much.
These threads lately have done a disservice to his legacy, and its very disappointing. I'm haven't been liking how Era has been shitting on a dead legend. A practitioner that was a student under Yip Man, and was constantly improving upon his own evolving fighting style, was supposedly a fraud? That's a turn off. We can and should definitely do better.
I'd be with you if we were talking about any other sport but boxing.
Grappling sports like judo, sure.
6 French Presses? I don't know about strength, but that motherfucker could really drink some coffee.If you want to actually see how strong he was, or get some idea of it, there's a book called The Art of Expressing the Human Body in the "Bruce Lee Library" that goes into his whole workout regimen. It has reproductions of his workout logs and workouts and whatnot. Here's one from 1965, which is in the Amazon excerpts you can look at:
QB's tend to be taller for field vision, not to generate more force, and throwing technique plays a larger role in their ability to generate force than weight does. Otherwise we'd see QB's with more muscle mass than we typically do.
I think you're relying on the label of "professional athlete" too much here. A person doesn't have to actually be a professional in a sport to be an athlete of the same or similiar performance level overall. The primary difference between professionals and non-professionals in any field comes from specialized training of techniques and of course experience.
In this particular case, I don't think that the specialized training differences are as large as you're insinuating with the labels you're using. The techniques used to generate maximum force through a punch are the same regardless of discipline because mechanically, all humans operate the same way.
In any case, the laws of physics in delivering force when taking the human body into account aren't as simple as you're making them out to be. This doesn't at all mean that Bruce Lee could hit harder than Mike Tyson. It just means your logic as to WHY Mike Tyson hits harder than Bruce Lee has faults.
Yeah, I agree. Chuck was just being nice.
When they were in Return Of The Dragon, Norris was very close to top form. Chuck Norris wasn't some actor with a black belt, he was a world champion and king of the black belts. I think he would have destroyed Bruce Lee.
I'm sure Bruce Lee was strong for his size and tough as nails, but he did not have the competitive experience. It's not about strength. There is no replacement for actual fighting experience and the defence that comes with it. The top competitive fighters have a significant advantage over someone without that experience.
Not to diminish the feats of Royce or the Gracie family, but he dominated largely due to nobody knowing shit about BJJ at the time. It's a different game when everyone is training with the same knowledge base. Typically speaking, size is going to at least provide an advantage assuming both people are athletes/ trained.
I'm not at all disagreeing that size plays a factor and even sometimes a decisive one. My only point is that it is not an insurmountable obstacle as some people seem to believe.
You are absolutely correct that Gracie's dominance was in large part due to MMA being in its infancy. I don't think that changes the fact that superior fighting style as well as superior training and even mentality are just as big a determining factor in any fight.
Perhaps a better example from MMA would be Bob Sapp. The man was absolutely gigantic and had a size advantage over almost every single opponent he faced and yet he has a losing record and it's not even really close. Faster and better fighters were often able to dismantle that mountain of a man.
I think the main difference is that Asian people often see Bruce Lee as a teacher. Whereas Western audience only think of him as that Asian badass. So it's no surprise many white potheads dream of kicking Bruce Lee's ass.
Weight matters a whole fucking lot in Judo. Practice fighting against a 100+Kg guy when I was 70 Kg is how I got tendinosis in both my knees in a single day that fucked me up for a whole summer, one knee for an ippon sionage on the knees that didn't work... because the guy was 100 kg, and the other that got twisted because the guy crushed me when grappling on the floor despite me technically having the technical advantage at that moment.
There's very little you can do in Judo once you go past a weight difference. You simply cannot drag somebody to the floor when they are so much heavier than you, provided they know what they are doing.
Have you ever wrestling a smaller person? Yeah, now apply that to professionals where it's a smaller person versus a larger person who both are equally trained. The smaller person isn't destined to lose 100% of the time but I'd wager they lose 9/10 times and the 1 out of 10 is the random "1 punch" or technical slip from the other. Weight is an absolute killer in a fight. For every video of a smaller person getting that KO, there's a dozen of a larger person literally bear hugging a person to death.
Lee is obviously not a Segal type fraud, but his legacy should be more as a teacher, academic, and innovator of fighting/martial arts, rather than as a strongman or fighter himself. He never really fought professionally, and if you look at some of the people who were around back then at the professional level in various contact sports, it's reasonable to say he would not have beaten them. I don't doubt that with his work ethic, training, and ways thinking that he could have become some kind of champion in his weight class if he had devoted his time to that, but he didn't. He became a movie star.
If we are talking in comparison to other movie star fighters, dudes like Norris, Van Damme, etc., have actual professional fight/martial arts records to back them up, so even on that front it's hard to look at Lee as being the best.
If we are talking in comparison to other movie star fighters, dudes like Norris, Van Damme, etc., have actual professional fight/martial arts records to back them up, so even on that front it's hard to look at Lee as being the best.
Well, people like Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis trained with him and have publicly stated it improved their overall skills.
I've spent considerable time studying Bruce over the years and I was prepared – each time a new book, article or documentary came out – to discover that his skills were overhyped if not outright fabricated.
What I've consistently discovered instead is that his skill level was practically off the charts in terms of what he was pulling off, especially given his size. He was not only a pioneer in martial arts but his speed and power were absolutely ridiculous, as verified by numerous people.
There's plenty of information out there about how easily Bruce took down various people in real, unsanctioned street fights and altercations but one of the best sources is this book, which I've mentioned many times before:
It's not always flattering (Bruce was quite a womanizer) but it verifies many of the stories I'd heard over the years in regards to his prowess as an actual fighter.
I've spent considerable time studying Bruce over the years and I was prepared – each time a new book, article or documentary came out – to discover that his skills were overhyped if not outright fabricated.
What I've consistently discovered instead is that his skill level was practically off the charts in terms of what he was pulling off, especially given his size. He was not only a pioneer in martial arts but his speed and power were absolutely ridiculous, as verified by numerous people.
There's plenty of information out there about how easily Bruce took down various people in real, unsanctioned street fights and altercations but one of the best sources is this book, which I've mentioned many times before:
It's not always flattering (Bruce was quite a womanizer) but it verifies many of the stories I'd heard over the years in regards to his prowess as an actual fighter.
I like how you went to explain to us that he could never beat Ali, but didn't bother to find out that he said he wouldn't be able to beat Ali
Bruce Lees daughter and his friends have to chill out. Okay.
OP
OP
that si the thing I don't get in fact. Quentin Tarantino said Bruce's wife wrote in a book that he said he could have beaten Ali...
This is a easy one. Tarantino is wrong. His wife quoted a TV critic as an example how amazed people were by her husband
Very strong for his size, and very well conditioned.
Ali would have crushed him though, and it seems that Lee knew that anyway. MAYBE if Lee was able to stay out of the way long enough to tire Ali out, and then was able to get in his kitchen, he'd have a chance, but that's a pretty huge "if," since Ali's hands were fast as hell in his prime. One good ding on the jaw with that weight difference would likely have put Lee down.
Ali would have crushed him though, and it seems that Lee knew that anyway. MAYBE if Lee was able to stay out of the way long enough to tire Ali out, and then was able to get in his kitchen, he'd have a chance, but that's a pretty huge "if," since Ali's hands were fast as hell in his prime. One good ding on the jaw with that weight difference would likely have put Lee down.
This quarterback stuff is taking what I originally said out of context. I never said weight was the most important thing for a quarterback. I said a quarterback wasn't an appropriate counter-argument (because their athleticism is too different from a boxer or fighter mechanically). By mentioning height and weight I was merely pointing out that the more mass someone has the easier it is for them to generate force (which must be true and the point of my original post anyway).
I don't agree at all about what a professional athlete is. A professional athlete is someone who has the tested skills to perform an athletic test at the highest levels of competition. You make is sound like they just have better training. Clearly training makes you better, but you also have to have the skills and talent to get there in the first place and no amount of training will get someone without the talent to that level. Regardless, you're over-thinking it because the point is that anyway is that Mike Tyson (or Ali) are top-tier athletes in their field, and competitively fight for a living. Bruce Lee, on the other hand, is not. Therefore they have considerable advantages in a competitive fight over Lee that goes beyond the ability to generate raw bunching force.
Right, I said they were in my original post. My original post merely states that all things being equal Lee would have to bunch with 41% more acceleration than Tyson to achieve the same force. However, in reality things are not equal and not simple, and those factors still favor Tyson for the reasons stated above.
Mixing Bruce Lee's natural talent with his passion to learn and his motivation to be the best, put him in any generation and he'd be a top fighter, if not *the* top fighter.
Styles change and training methods improve. If Bruce was born in the late 80's or early 90's, he'd be fairly dominant in MMA right now if he chose that path instead of a career in Hollywood.
Styles change and training methods improve. If Bruce was born in the late 80's or early 90's, he'd be fairly dominant in MMA right now if he chose that path instead of a career in Hollywood.
A professional athlete is just an athlete that has reached the "professional" level of their respective sport. Talent isn't an objectively measurable figure, it's a variable (that can often times overcome things like imperfect mechanics). Again, the difference between a professional and a non-professional athlete is training and experience. That marks the difference between Amateurs and Professionals in every sport. But one does not need to be a Professional in order to be an Athlete on the same performance tier as a Professional. And by all accounts given by those with the experience and knowledge to determine so, Bruce Lee absolutely was a top tier athlete in his field, which was Martial Arts.
What your post tries to suppose is that both Tyson and Bruce have perfect punching mechanics... but then you suggest that because Bruce isn't a professional, that he wouldn't have perfect punching mechanics but Tyson, again by the label of professional, still would. But that's not how it works. Not in combat sports at all. Any combat sports fan will tell you that you can not "math" out outcomes of competition. It's perfectly reasonable to surmise that Tyson would hit harder than Bruce even if only looking at the video proof of how hard Tyson hit his opponents in his prime. But math is not the proving factor because there are far too many variables that are incalculable involved and that's before you impose the fallacy of mechanics assumed by the labels of "professional" vs "non-professional."
A bit.
Its a parody, a satire, not a documentary.
Bruce Lee is widely considered the best fighter of all time eventhough he was a Hollywood actor with little discernible proof of his real fighting skill. Id say his legacy is fine.
So yeah, chill out a bit.
Disingenious misconstructing of words in sake of trolling. I like it, one more for the ignore list.
People think Pocahontas was a grownass woman falling in love with John Smith, think Trump is a successful business man and are convinced Lee thought he could beat Ali. Tarantino was one of these persons , OP another one. It happens. I mean some people even think popular media has no effect on the collective conscience. People are... uneducated you know?
Guess Im on the ignore list now, so OK, thanks. Those are some leaps youre making and honestly linking being ignorant about Pocahontas to Trump is pretty gross, you can know the objective truth about somebody and still be fine with some levity in a movie made by a known eccentric.
When I watched Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, what I got wasn't that that scene was supposed to be an actual depiction of Lee, but just supposed to be Brad Pitt's fantasy of him. Like he's on the roof thinking about how he would beat up Bruce Lee and then afterwards he's like 'Not worth it' or something. Or did I misread that scene?
I gonna ignore my ignore list once. What your "chill down a bit" was, was emotion policing, one of the most vile ways to talk down to someone. Given that you adressed noone with your broad disrespectful attack, its hard to exclude his daughter and friends, in particular because they are the most outspoken critics. Given the nature of being outspoken, you could listen. You don't. Instead you attack me and didn't even bother to engage with my criticism. Oh well except you managed to paint yourself as the victim because I gave you easy to understand examples how media affects public conscience.
Thus our conversation had ended.
They had a significant size difference and both knew how to fight. Bruce Lee wouldn't have stood a chance.
Royce Gracie had the advantage of being a BJJ black belt while his opponents had no idea what to do when grappling :/
I guess Ken Shamrock gave him some trouble cause he was a wrestler but in the end Royce choked him.
It really has ended because holy shit at the amount of assumptions you have made with extremely little information.
Of course I am not telling Bruce Lee's family to chill out, how on Earth do you even get to the place where thats the case? I say "people" as in "people in this thread" that much should be obvious. Lee is an icon and public figure who is as close to "legend" status as you can find in popular media in the last century so as far as that version of him goes, yes, there should be room for levity, just like there is room to glorify and exaggerate his many accomplishments (and I dont see too many people complain when that happens, again, note that when I say "people" I dont mean his family, also note how exhausting it would be to type all of that every time)
Saying I am attacking you is extremely off base. You start the pleasantries by saying I am to be put on mute and then I dare to say youre making a leap and you think thats an "attack"? OK dude, if thats how you think conversations work.
I already addressed your criticism. I am from Spain, trust me, I know how much of an asshole Columbus is, as well as Pizarro and Cortez. I know how stories get twisted and perversed, I also understand that movies are works of fiction. The solution is to educate people to not take movies as gospel. If anything, Bruce's legacy has benefited from this trend rather than be hurt by it.
Also, another assumption on your part, I aint a victim of jack shit. Maybe you are tired of having this conversation with other people and youre starting to lump everyone into the same group.
Have a good one.
That's not true at all. What marks a professional and non-professional is that a professional made the cut while a non-professional did not for whatever reasons. Regardless, that entirely the point of bringing up the difference - a professional has training and experience to compete at the highest levels - which in this case is a fight.
That's speculation. It's also irrelevant because I'm not claiming Lee wasn't good (or great) at what he did. I'm merely pointing out that in a fight (specifically) between Bruce Lee and Mike Tyson (although I should have said Ali, but whatever) Tyson has physical advantages over Lee that Lee would need to compensate for somehow. There's a reason there are weight classes in fights. Do you have an argument or evidence that Lee had advantages that could make up for his deficiency in mass?
You're putting words into my mouth. I said nothing of mechanics. In fact, I assumed both of their mechanics equal.
Furthermore, pointing out that Tyson is a professional fighter and Lee was not was meant to illustrate that (at the highest levels of competition) Tyson's job is to fight people - to take and gives blows - to beat up others while simultaneously not get beat up - this "experience" you keep mentioning - he has experience as a fighter in a way Lee does not.
This is Reddit level of unnecessarily argumentative because it all at the same time cedes my point (that Tyson could hit harder) while decontextualizing something else I said (the continued misconstruing of professional and non-professional labels) to contort my original statement into something I never said (ignoring myriad variables that go into who would win a fight).
So unless you believe Lee could compensate for his lack of size to beat Tyson in a fight then I have no idea what your point is or why you keep arguing about nothing.
