How Nintendo Has Hurt the Smash Community: anonymous insider reveals how Nintendo has actively worked against a Smash eSports scene

[WestEgg]

True, Brawlhalla is a good example of what happens when a game with a sizable community is well supported by its publisher. Just imagine how much bigger Smash would be if Nintendo supported it like Ubisoft supports Brawlhalla

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I think there's diminishing returns at work here though, as a new IP will of course benefit from being promoted by one of the larger publishers out there, while from Nintendo's perspective, Smash is big enough that any efforts to promote it at the competitive level are largely unnecessary next to the vastly larger casual market they cater to with flashy marketing and DLC characters.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

y'all proved them right.

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yea, my bad?

 

[Spinluck]

yea, my bad?

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You should probably not take this so personally.

 

[typhy]

That was some pretty disgusting stuff brought to the light. Not a lot of people gonna care when you have a community that was housing pedos and rapists. And imagine being shocked why Nintendo of all companies who never takes risks on these type of things would care to want after you validate a lot of the reasons why they don't.

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hey why did you bring this up if i may ask? it has nothing to do with anything in the op

 

[IneptEMP]

You should probably not take this so personally.

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You should probably read the room.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

You should probably not take this so personally.

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The whole point of this thread was to detail the history of actions taken by Nintendo in the past and your reaction was to come in and be like "y'all pedophiles"

 

[Tbm24]

This community should probably work on repairing it's image after this summer. People were already getting tired of them thinking they're entitled to Nintendo making games or events just to cater to them. As if Smash wouldn't sell without them lol.

That was some pretty disgusting stuff brought to the light. Not a lot of people gonna care when you have a community that was housing pedos and rapists. And imagine being shocked why Nintendo of all companies who never takes risks on these type of things would care to want after you validate a lot of the reasons why they don't.

Instead of proving them wrong y'all proved them right.

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Couple of things about the bolded. First, what do you think they've been doing exactly? I can only assume you don't actually know. Second, this isn't a matter of entitlement or even asking Nintendo to make an Event for them. Read the link in the OP. Third, this isn't about makes new sales more so about supporting the people who support your game by buying/playing it.

 

[Spinluck]

You should probably read the room.

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Yeah you're right.

The whole point of this thread was to detail the history of actions taken by Nintendo in the past and your reaction was to come in and be like "y'all pedophiles"

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My apologies. Didn't mean for it come off that way. The entire Smash community and every single person in it aren't pedophiles.

 

[Spinluck]

Couple of things about the bolded. First, what do you think they've been doing exactly? I can only assume you don't actually know. Second, this isn't a matter of entitlement or even asking Nintendo to make an Event for them. Read the link in the OP. Third, this isn't about makes new sales more so about supporting the people who support your game by buying/playing it.

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Read the OP like 3 different times.

 

[Peleo]

Nintendo doesn't want to deal with them. So the choices are: raging and hashtagging on twitter which means effectively nothing or using the influence of a community to boost an indie smash-style game that does not have the chains of IP. Which is more productive, I think we know the answer.

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There is nothing wrong with a community trying to grow and expand the game they love and wanting better support from the developer. Your post reads as if you told female football/soccer players "Why don't you stop bothering FIFA and go play a sport with more support like volleyball?"

Your proposed "obvious" solution is almost laughable. How easy do you think creating a game is? Just putting out a game is already an herculean task, but in order for the game to thrive it will also need to be at least: Fun to play. Offer enough gameplay depth in a competitive setting. Acessible to newer players.

Even imagining a scenario in which the above worked out, let's say the game has launched and has a certain level of potential. Now you still need to firstly get enough people to buy and play the game. Then the smaller grassroots scenes can be born born locally. Then you can expand a bit into slightly bigger state tournaments. Then, when the community is big enough, you can start with national events. Then when the scene is established you can start attracting sponsors and growing it further. After all of this is done, you probably are a couple levels below where Smash is at the moment. Dozens of competitive games are launched each year, sometimes with massive developer financial support & investment and they still fail. You make it sound so easy in your post.

Trying to get Nintendo to offer enough support and permission for the scene to grow further is the much simpler route, especially because all other parties (Twitch, Smash Scene, Sponsors) are already quite invested in ensuring the esports part thrives.

 

[Ruisu]

I wonder how much of this is related to the attachment the community has to Melee. Nintendo doesn't get anything from supporting it over whatever is it's latest game.

 

[My Blue Heaven]

There is nothing wrong with a community trying to grow and expand the game they love and wanting better support from the developer. Your post reads as if you told female football/soccer players "Why don't you stop bothering FIFA and go play a sport with more support like volleyball?"

Your proposed "obvious" solution is almost laughable. How easy do you think creating a game is? Just putting out a game is already an herculean task, but in order for the game to thrive it will also need to be at least: Fun to play. Offer enough gameplay depth in a competitive setting. Acessible to newer players.

Even imagining a scenario in which the above worked out, let's say the game has launched and has a certain level of potential. Now you still need to firstly get enough people to buy and play the game. Then the smaller grassroots scenes can be born born locally. Then you can expand a bit into slightly bigger state tournaments. Then, when the community is big enough, you can start with national events. Then when the scene is established you can start attracting sponsors and growing it further. After all of this is done, you probably are a couple levels below where Smash is at the moment. Dozens of competitive games are launched each year, sometimes with massive developer financial support & investment and they still fail. You make it sound so easy in your post.

Trying to get Nintendo to offer enough support and permission for the scene to grow further is the much simpler route, especially because all other parties (Twitch, Smash Scene, Sponsors) are already quite invested in ensuring the esports part thrives.

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"Get Nintendo to come to the table" is about as laughable as my idea, lol. Good luck with that.

 

[BGBW]

People on this site don't seem to even want to play the game with each other and rather post idol character images of 100 varieties though. Its not hard to see which users actually give a shit about each other. Fuck those of us people who really just adore a videogame though, praise Nintendo.

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Well, lucky for you this just gave me a laugh rather than rub me the wrong way.

Understandable, but when I see how games like Fortnite and Call of Duty embrace their competitive scenes, while Smash Bros. barely gets a quarter of that attention on Twitch, it bothers me. Obviously these are different game genres, but I think Nintendo not doing anything to encourage these communities to continue to grow will damage the relationship between these communities and the brand. Why would any young aspiring esports kid want to dedicate their career to playing a Nintendo game where there's no real opportunity for growth for them?

Of course getting Banjo in Smash is fantastic. I'm forever grateful. But on the flip side, it probably means they're never going to go out of their way to acquire the rights to the franchise. Microsoft owns a nice chunk of the N64 catalog. Hindsight is 20/20 of course but in this digital era having content is so important. Hate them or love them, Rare IP were a nice break from Nintendo's usual outings. I see Microsoft and Sony acquiring studios while Nintendo is all nope, we're good on that! Let's watch our ex-partners go bankrupt and all the competitors snatch up the IP. Woo!

Still no folders, friend invites, or basic messaging on Switch. The drip feeding of classic titles, because god forbid playing Donkey Kong Country 3 for an hour takes playing time away from Pikmin 3 Deluxe, that you already bought on Wii U. I'm not having fun being a Nintendo fan these days. I think there's plenty of valid reasons to be unhappy with Nintendo's management imo.

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Nintendo is far from perfect. I could write a book about how much Nintendo of Europe disappointed me back in the day, cos that was a real low point. We're talking month long waits, or just not getting games what so ever (since this thread is about Melee, we had to wait six months for it!). So much so that these days I'm almost unfazed by their weird decisions. It's also why I know it's not really worth getting too emotional about their decisions, they are a brick wall. So when the good times come, make the most of it.

The unfortunate thing is that because the competitive community managed to get this far without help from Nintendo, it almost gives Nintendo zero reason to bother. The games sell well and the competitive community keeps on ticking. Nintendo has struck upon a win-win situation.

What happened with Rare was unfortunate. When the news broke early on in the GameCube's life many people, including me, were really gutted. I've heard Nintendo actually returned the IPs back to Rare as a good will gesture. Make of that what you will.

I should note that I'm not against people wanting Nintendo to do more for the tournament scene, I just felt this Tweet Longer was a little unhonest and has been written just to rile people up.

And yes, denying people a chance to play DKC3 is sacrilege. Everyone should play it!

 

[Tbm24]

Read the OP like 3 different times.

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Then frankly I don't understand how you came to conclusion of

"People were already getting tired of them thinking they're entitled to Nintendo making games or events just to cater to them"

 

[Spinluck]

hey why did you bring this up if i may ask? it has nothing to do with anything in the op

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I believe it does. I brought it up because after years of this scene complaining about Nintendo I think it's about time they stopped expecting Nintendo of all companies to meet them half way. People are bringing up Pokemon but that's not a property entirely under their control.

Also, I think they should focus on cleaning up their own scene. That isn't Nintendo's job.

 

[LinkStrikesBack]

I wonder how much of this is related to the attachment the community has to Melee. Nintendo doesn't get anything from supporting it over whatever is it's latest game.

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Yeah, I kinda feel like this is the elephant in the room. Until the scene just drops melee, Nintendo is always going to be antagonistic to them. Obviously that's also not going to happen at this point, so they're at a deadlock, but arguably Nintendo doesn't need the scene at all for smash, so they won't be the first to buckle.

 

[collige]

I think there's diminishing returns at work here though, as a new IP will of course benefit from being promoted by one of the larger publishers out there, while from Nintendo's perspective, Smash is big enough that any efforts to promote it at the competitive level are largely unnecessary next to the vastly larger casual market they cater to with flashy marketing and DLC characters.

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I would argue that Nintendo itself is big enough to be able to support two Smash games in some form, especially because the casual Ultimate market you're describing would not be cannibalized by the the Melee fans. People would buy DLC costumes for a Melee remaster in a heartbeat, half of pros already stream using fancy custom outfits.

 

[Glio]

Wrong thread

 

[WindUp]

My apologies. Didn't mean for it come off that way. The entire Smash community and every single person in it aren't pedophiles.

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Respect for being big enough to acknowledge it could have been read that way. There was some pretty abhorrent stuff that people were brave enough to speak up about over the summer so I definitely get that posts will be emotionally charged on the issue.

 

[Ruisu]

Yeah, I kinda feel like this is the elephant in the room. Until the scene just drops melee, Nintendo is always going to be antagonistic to them. Obviously that's also not going to happen at this point, so they're at a deadlock, but arguably Nintendo doesn't need the scene at all for smash, so they won't be the first to buckle.

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It's also weird as fuck though.

Like the community doesn't necessarily NEED direct support from Nintendo to keep the Melee scene going. All they need is that Nintendo doesn't actively try to undermine it, and logically Nintendo doesn't lose anything by letting it be.
And yet, they do undermine it, for the pettiest, most minor reasons.

 

[typhy]

I believe it does

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it quite literally does not, chronologically. it is not a matter of "belief"

 

[Deleted member 10726]

literal, explicit victim blaming now. very cool

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I'm so sorry for this typhy. You are such a brave person for sharing this with us and it's quite frankly disgusting how your, and the contributions of other people in the community, are being buried under this vile drive-by toxicity because people don't like the Smash community.

 

[Glio]

I wonder how much of this is related to the attachment the community has to Melee. Nintendo doesn't get anything from supporting it over whatever is it's latest game.

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I have a feeling that when Melee is on a VC, Nintendo Online or whatever, there is going to be something like "the input lag of this move is slightly different in the new version" and they would still play on Game Cube.

 

[Spinluck]

Then frankly I don't understand how you came to conclusion of

"People were already getting tired of them thinking they're entitled to Nintendo making games or events just to cater to them"

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The OP has to do with the Smash community and things Nintendo has done to undercut their growth. I get that but this has been going on forever. I don't think this really changes what I thought about Nintendo. They've always been assholes with their IPs. At the same time Smash fans aren't entitled to anything. They will never get that, it seems. They should start prioritizing other things.

 

[RPGam3r]

I wonder how much of this is related to the attachment the community has to Melee. Nintendo doesn't get anything from supporting it over whatever is it's latest game.

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This was my thought too (before even thinking well this is Nintendo or that this specific community had recent issues).

Melee is old news for Nintendo. And it's not like their other games that they use for money with rereleases. There are new entries and they want the focus on them. The focus on Melee up front is probably already enough to sour anything beyond.

 

[typhy]

I'm so sorry for this typhy. You are such a brave person for sharing this with us and it's quite frankly disgusting how your, and the contributions of other people in the community, are being buried under this vile drive-by toxicity because people don't like the Smash community.

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i really do appreciate the kind words you and everyone else who responded to me have, like i said in my big post im not one to get that hurt, more frustrated that people like PlumCantaloupe can make posts like that and close their resetera tab and never be held accountable for it and never reply to the people theyre maligning.

 

[Dyle]

This was my thought too (before even thinking well this is Nintendo or that this specific community had recent issues).

Melee is old news for Nintendo. And it's not like their other games that they use for money with rereleases. There are new entries and they want the focus on them. The focus on Melee up front is probably already enough to sour anything beyond.

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It's just not true though, because Nintendo doesn't care about the competitive communities for their newest entries either. They shut down stuff for Brawl, they shut down stuff for Smash 4, and they've shut down stuff for Ultimate. It has very little, if anything to do with the age of the game, they just don't like anything they can't control

 

[The Adder]

Let's be real here, the netcode of Slippy is VERY selective. It only works in a 1vs1 fight without items. Also you have mainly people, who actually want a good connection. Not casual player using Wifi. Smash has actually much more moving parts and a bigger audience with different connection levels, which make it hard to create a good netcode.
Good Netcode actually is just a great use of "Smoke and Mirrors". That's why games, which are much more Offline-Play focused, have a harder time online. Smash biggest problem with Online-Play is the age of its foundation. Sakurai reuse a lot of elements from previous games, so that the games can become even bigger. Those elements were never designed with Online-Play in mind. So Nintendo would need to build Smash from scratch. Throwing away all the older elements and rework it for Online-Play, so that more "Smoke and Mirrors" can be used.

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Oh hey. Some actual sense of perspective.

 

[WindUp]

At the same time Smash fans aren't entitled to anything. They will never get that, it seems. They should start prioritizing other things.

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But they're aren't asking for anything? They just want to be left alone / not actively blocked by Nintendo. Even if you don't care, I feel like it isn't that hard to see why that might be frustrating for people.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

I have a feeling that when Melee is on a VC, Nintendo Online or whatever, there is going to be something like "the input lag of this move is slightly different in the new version" and they would still play on Game Cube.

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How is this not a completely reasonable reaction to a shitty product? VC Smash 64 was a poor alternative to the original for this very reason.

Oh hey. Some actual sense of perspective.

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Not really. It was developed by one person and 4 player works really damn well for Brawlhalla's netcode. People who work GGPO have also been quoted saying they think 4 player casual smash is plausible also.

Desyncs in Slippi were found to be caused by things like Game and Watch's Judge move (the random 1-9 number move) and fixed by having a shared "seed" shared among players per game.

 

[RPGam3r]

It's just not true though, because Nintendo doesn't care about the competitive communities for their newest entries either. They shut down stuff for Brawl, they shut down stuff for Smash 4, and they've shut down stuff for Ultimate. It has very little, if anything to do with the age of the game, they just don't like anything they can't control

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Oh I agree that they don't care about the competitive scene. I just think the Melee focus ruins an already diminished chance of them caring even more.

 

[Spinluck]

it quite literally does not, chronologically. it is not a matter of "belief"

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You'd have to elaborate more.

I understand that you're saying we didn't know about the events of this summer until this summer and that Nintendo has been doing this long before that. But I simply cannot sympathize after that stuff has come to light. Say Nintendo was all for the Smash scene before that or while that is taking place? Who is left picking up the pieces in that scenario?

Anyway, I'm not trying to derail the thread further since people have made it clear this isn't the thread for that and I won't speak up on all the allegations this past year regarding huge names in the scene. My bad.

 

[typhy]

But I simply cannot sympathize after that stuff has come to light.

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if you cannot sympathize with the people who are still in the community who the abuse happened to and still want to build something special for themselves you can kindly go kick rocks

 

[Spinluck]

But they're aren't asking for anything? They just want to be left alone / not actively blocked by Nintendo. Even if you don't care, I feel like it isn't that hard to see why that might be frustrating for people.

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I haven't really been part of the scene since Smash 4. I walked away so my bad if my info was out of date. But I thought it was known that Nintendo actively preventing Smash events from happening for a long time. I could've sworn this was always a thing.

 

[WindUp]

I'm so sorry for this typhy. You are such a brave person for sharing this with us and it's quite frankly disgusting how your, and the contributions of other people in the community, are being buried under this vile drive-by toxicity because people don't like the Smash community.

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Quoting just to echo how disappointing this thread has been, especially posters that have made mean-spirited drive-by posts and proceeded to ignore respectful replies that attempt to explain why people who care about these games feel the way they do.

EDIT: And also of course, to echo how sorry I am that those such as typhy that have been brave enough to share their experiences have been ignored by many of those drive by posts :(

 

[Spinluck]

if you cannot sympathize with the people who are still in the community who the abuse happened to and still want to build something special for themselves you can kindly go kick rocks

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I'm more so referring to the people who knew and were complicit. But I understand people will pick and choose when to see nuance so I'll go kick rocks.

 

[Glio]

How is this not a completely reasonable reaction to a shitty product? VC Smash 64 was a poor alternative to the original for this very reason.



Not really. It was developed by one person and 4 player works really damn well for Brawlhalla's netcode. People who work GGPO have also been quoted saying they think 4 player casual smash is plausible also.

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Well that's what I say, the Melee situation will not be solved, finally all CTR and Game Cubes will die and Nintendo will continue to release new Smash games.

The End.

 

[typhy]

I'm more so referring to the people who knew and were complicit. But I understand people will pick and choose when to see nuance so I'll go kick rocks.

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"nuance" lol

 

[The Adder]

I would argue that Nintendo itself is big enough to be able to support two Smash games in some form, especially because the casual Ultimate market you're describing would not be cannibalized by the the Melee fans. People would buy DLC costumes for a Melee remaster in a heartbeat, half of pros already stream using fancy custom outfits.

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Never been a Smash game without Sakurai's involvement. I have my doubts Nintendo has any interest in there ever being a Smash without Sakurai's direct involvement. And not only do I suspect he has no interest in working on Melee again, but he's already stretched pretty thin on top of that.

 

[Spinluck]

"nuance" lol

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This is some very effective communication.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

Well that's what I say, the Melee situation will not be solved, finally all CTR and Game Cubes will die and Nintendo will continue to release new Smash games.

The End.

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Would you enjoy that?

Never been a Smash game without Sakurai's involvement. I have my doubts Nintendo has any interest in there ever being a Smash without Sakurai's direct involvement. And not only do I suspect he has no interest in working on Melee again, but he's already stretched pretty thin on top of that.

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I do hope you reply to my post that addressed your "finally someone with perspective"

 

[typhy]

This some very effective communication.

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you obviously didnt read my previous posts in this thread, i dont have anything to prove to you nor do i need to engage with you

 

[Glio]

Would you enjoy that?

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No, I would not.

 

[Deleted member 442]

But they're aren't asking for anything? They just want to be left alone / not actively blocked by Nintendo. Even if you don't care, I feel like it isn't that hard to see why that might be frustrating for people.

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They're asking for the right to hold a public performance of Nintendo's IP, which Nintendo are seemingly entitled to withhold or release to their whim.

That may not be a physical thing or something that Nintendo have to dedicate time or resources towards but it is theirs to withhold.

 

[collige]

Never been a Smash game without Sakurai's involvement. I have my doubts Nintendo has any interest in there ever being a Smash without Sakurai's direct involvement. And not only do I suspect he has no interest in working on Melee again, but he's already stretched pretty thin on top of that.

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I know, but it's fun to dream. I'm just saying they could make money off it since some people are arguing that this is a result of N being business oriented instead of stubborn.

 

[Glio]

I know, but it's fun to dream. I'm just saying they could make money off it since some people are arguing that this is a result of N being business oriented instead of stubborn.

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From a business point of view, the resources dedicated to Melee HD would likely make more money if used for the new Smash Bros. Opportunity cost.

 

[Spinluck]

you obviously didnt read my previous posts in this thread, i dont have anything to prove to you nor do i need to engage with you

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Of course I didn't.

I don't have the time.

 

[typhy]

Of course I didn't.

I don't have the time.

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so you didnt read shit and then literally came into this thread by saying "Instead of proving them wrong y'all proved them right." and then told someone not to take it personally. so you even insinuating that there was anything "nuanced" about the words you said is fucking laughable, frankly. that's why i said "lol"

 

[Horohorohoro]

Of course I didn't.

I don't have the time.

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You're making yourself look like a genuinely awful human being with this, especially considering just what their other posts were about.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

From a business point of view, the resources dedicated to Melee HD would likely make more money if used for the new Smash Bros. Opportunity cost.

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How much do you think an HD remaster would cost to do? It looks great just upscaled to higher resolution on emulation.
Looking at how piss poor their efforts are with remasters can be they likely wouldn't even bother increasing the resolution. They couldn't even give people Mario 64 at 1080p....