How Nintendo Has Hurt the Smash Community: anonymous insider reveals how Nintendo has actively worked against a Smash eSports scene

[TheOGB]

All the quips about the community seem unnecessary to me, especially since all those talks had allegedly been happening years ago, prior to the horror stories coming out this past summer. Regardless of how toxic the Smash scene is or isn't, Nintendo has clearly shown very little interest in competitive Smash. When they did/do, it's in situations where they have the most control. They don't seem to bother otherwise. There could also be the fact that with all the different propertiesthat are now a part of Smash Bros, things get pretty unweildy as far as rights and licensing and such. That could just be a huge mess that they don't feel like dealing with. If something like that is the case, then I get it. I don't like it and I don't agree with it, but I get it.

The thing is, though, they should not have kept flirting with the idea and giving people hope like they did with half-measures and empty gestures. It may have been good for business--and Nintendo is a business, so that's what they do--but obviously it's fucked up to do that to their fans. A very dedicated base of fans, at that. If they were not interested in having anything to do with eSports, they should just come out and say so. But they won't close that door completely, because they may still get opportunities to benefit from hype, viewership, whatever. I think it's shitty for them to do that, but I think that's the nature of business.

The best case scenario for the Smash competitive scene is simply to be left alone, honestly. Keep being self-sufficient and play what and how they want to play. But they can't even have that.

 

[SpaceCrystal]

I love my job so you aren't getting any info out of me! :)

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I'm very sorry, I forgot. I don't want you to get in trouble!

 

[MondoMega]

True, that is a good point I did not think about. Apologies for my broad swipes.

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This is very refreshing compared to how a lot of this thread has gone so far; thank you.

 

[Craymond]

It sounds like you don't particularly care about the topic and are more or less here to crow about how bad things happening to the Smash scene as a whole is karmic justice.

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Like I said, I sincerely do wish the best for the community, I love Smash and watching pros. The SmashMeToo just left me angry, sad, revolted, all of everything bad. I was heavy handed and I have no love for shitty corporate tactics but Smash might be dead to me. You don't need to respond really, I'll stop derailing this OP. Nintendo should be accountable too really and I do care about that.

 

[Fugu]

I am not sure the details of UCF (that's the one related to all the weird gamecube controller inconsistencies right?) or if Nintendo has ever made a statement for or against it, but you keep coming back to the crux of my argument. If you are talking about UCF modded legitimate hardware, that is part of the closed system and within Nintendo's realm of control if they deem it necessary. If there was an issue with it, they could issue a patch that would disable the mod. Similar to what you saw with Capcom disabling the recent SFV PC netcode patch.

When you are talking about fully reverse engineered emulation software, then that is something they have absolutely zero control over, which is why their first reaction is going to be to shut it down.
Obviously their biggest sticking point is the fact that it allows piracy, but it also opens the door for a lot of other things that they could see as harmful to the brand.

Click to shrink...

Nintendo can't patch out UCF - it's beyond their control. You enable it by using a special memory card that exploits a known vulnerability in how Melee handles its save data. Since the Gamecube is an almost completely offline console, it's inconceivable to me how they would handle this without getting everyone to somehow throw out their existing copies.

It is, for all intents and purposes, an open ecosystem.

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

The SmashMeToo just left me angry, sad, revolted, all of everything bad.

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I was under suicide watch during that time because believe it or not, it might hurt people who care about the scene and the people in it a whole lot. Knowing something you've been part of for so long harbored such people isn't something anyone I know was not torn up over.

 

[nanskee]

Like Sajam said, the best thing for the smash community is for Nintendo to ignore their existence entirely. Both parties, especially Nintendo want nothing to do with one another.

 

[Craymond]

I was under suicide watch during that time because believe it or not, it might hurt people who care about the scene and the people in it a whole lot. Knowing something you've been part of for so long harbored such people isn't something anyone I know was not torn up over.

Click to shrink...

I'm sorry that sucks, I really just wish people didn't suck in the first place but here we are. I'm not trying to add to the sadness.

 

[Peleo]

Anyone who has been in the scene for a while knew bits and pieces of the story, but it's good to have a write-up covering it and showing the full picture.

It's always a shame when there are threads on Smash and we get the standard "fuck this toxic community".

Can't say I understand the posts on "Nintendo never hindered Smash" when you have several different sponsor & entities trying to create a Smash Circuit and Nintendo simply goes "nah".

It's very clear Nintendo has a different goal in mind of what they want Smash to be, which differently from Splatoon, doesn't include an esports identity. Still, they remain somewhat in touch with the community, making use opportunities for free advertisement and publicity while giving as little as possible back.

It's a shame really.

 

[MistaTwo]

Nintendo can't patch out UCF - it's beyond their control. You enable it by using a special memory card that exploits a known vulnerability in how Melee handles its save data. Since the Gamecube is an almost completely offline console, it's inconceivable to me how they would handle this without getting everyone to somehow throw out their existing copies.

It is, for all intents and purposes, an open ecosystem.

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Ah yeah, I always forget that Gamecube was mostly an offline beast outside of stuff like PSO.
As a Dreamcast fanboy back in those days, it always amazes me to think back that consoles which came out after it didn't come with built in internet support!

At best, they could just ban it for official tournaments but those don't even exist really anyway!

I think the reason you are seeing more pushback against Dolphin/Slippi is because it opens up a whole bigger can of worms thanks to emulation/piracy entering the fray.

 

[Deleted member 81119]

You clearly didn't because they have been doing this since the beginning with EVO and MLG.
And apparently didn't read what I posted either because its not implied that its Nintendo's job to "sort out all the pedophilia". They just sure as hell aren't helping anyone.

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Saying 'they sure as hell aren't helping' IS implying Nintendo should step in to sort out the pedophilia issue in the smash community. It's the community's job to clean up its act before Nintendo can get involved. But to be honest even if the Smash community wasn't rife with abuse and people protecting abusers, Nintendo still wouldn't want to get involved. That's still not 'actively' hurting the community.

 

[Codeblue]

I love my job so you aren't getting any info out of me! :)



I am not sure the details of UCF (that's the one related to all the weird gamecube controller inconsistencies right?) or if Nintendo has ever made a statement for or against it, but you keep coming back to the crux of my argument. If you are talking about UCF modded legitimate hardware, that is part of the closed system and within Nintendo's realm of control if they deem it necessary. If there was an issue with it, they could issue a patch that would disable the mod. Similar to what you saw with Capcom disabling the recent SFV PC netcode patch.

When you are talking about fully reverse engineered emulation software, then that is something they have absolutely zero control over, which is why their first reaction is going to be to shut it down.
Obviously their biggest sticking point is the fact that it allows piracy, but it also opens the door for a lot of other things that they could see as harmful to the brand.

Click to shrink...

They actually were the reason UCF couldn't be run at tournaments, though I guess you can't really patch a Gamecube anyway.

This also reminds me of the time a Nintendo sponsorship led to a venue-wide ban of hitbox style controllers at The Big House 7. Like, you couldn't take them out of your bag to play friendlies.

 

[Fugu]

Ah yeah, I always forget that Gamecube was mostly an offline beast outside of stuff like PSO.
As a Dreamcast fanboy back in those days, it always amazes me to think back that consoles which came out after it didn't come with built in internet support!

At best, they could just ban it for official tournaments but I am guessing it is such a minor mod that they may have never even acknowledged it.

I think the reason you are seeing more pushback against Dolphin/Slippi is because it opens up a whole bigger can of works thanks to emulation/piracy entering the fray.

Click to shrink...

Nintendo does say "don't use UCF" for official tournaments, but this is counterproductive for at least three reasons. One, UCF is increasingly important as the stock of good Gamecube controllers gets smaller and smaller. Two, Nintendo doesn't do shit for the Melee community and forcing events they sanction to use suboptimal rules is just going to sour the relationship further. Three, insofar as Nintendo is concerned, UCF is the symptom, not the disease, of Nintendo losing control of the platform. Banning UCF doesn't affect the proliferation of problematic mods; it's an irrelevant, non-problematic mod.

They actually were the reason UCF couldn't be run at tournaments, though I guess you can't really patch a Gamecube anyway.

This also reminds me of the time a Nintendo sponsorship led to a venue-wide ban of hitbox style controllers at The Big House 7. Like, you couldn't take them out of your bag to play friendlies.

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You almost assuredly already know this, but it is worth noting also that hitbox-style controllers have proliferated in Melee explicitly because of accessibility concerns relating to Melee's high execution barrier and the consequent difficulty some people have with using a Gamecube controller for extended periods of time. Accordingly, you can add this to the list of random, pointless and evil things that Nintendo has done to the Melee scene.

 

[Twig]

I dont agree. The community being grassroots for so long promoted the kind of behavior that led to the scandals. The players didnt have to answer to anybody.

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That feeling when you need a massive corporation to babysit people so they don't turn into reprehensible monsters.

 

[Dr. Dr. Dogtooth]

The US Melee and Smash scene in general was always seen as toxic. I follow it, since the release of Melee and what total broke the scene was the release of Brawl. Nintendo directly pushed against the competitive elements of Melee and to be more casual friendly. Ever since then, there was an underlying bitterness and the feel of betrayal: "Nintendo is always after us!" Many people wanted just to enjoy Brawl and Melee fans fought publicly against it. This is were the meme of the toxic Melee community started ("1vs1, No items, Fox only, Final Destination").
This document is just another level of the "Nintendo's conspiracy against the US Smash community". While the truth is, they either don't care (since the series makes money on its own), don't want to support anything, which they don't control, or go against anything, which could damage them (support of emulations, roms and mods).

The best case scenario for the Smash competitive scene is simply to be left alone, honestly. Keep being self-sufficient and play what and how they want to play. But they can't even have that.

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Of course, they never will have that, unless they are willing to go completely underground. But the US Smash competitive scene wants it all: public recognition, big price money and complete control of the game. You can't have it all, escpailly not with Nintendo and a game, which features all of their important IPs.

 

[Fugu]

Of course, they never will have that, unless they are willing to go completely underground. But the US Smash competitive scene wants it all: public recognition, big price money and complete control of the game. You can't have it all, escpailly not with Nintendo and a game, which features all of their important IPs.

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I don't think anyone prominent is saying this. I bet that the overwhelming majority of the community would be very happy just to have the threat of having their tournaments shut down by a uniquely uncooperative publisher extinguished.

 

[seroun]

Are people in this thread really saying that Nintendo.. cares about what went on the Smash community in terms of pedophilia and harassment? Really?
Nintendo didn't care about the community before those things happened, Nintendo didn't care while those things happened and they were not known, and Nintendo doesn't care now that those things are known.

 

[Dr. Dr. Dogtooth]

I don't think anyone prominent is saying this. I bet that the overwhelming majority of the community would be very happy just to have the threat of having their tournaments shut down by a uniquely uncooperative publisher extinguished.

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Tournaments got shoot down, which were previous sponsored by Nintendo. There were Melee tournaments running with Slippy in the last months, there are some running right now and there will be tournaments in the future.

 

[Peleo]

But the US Smash competitive scene wants it all: public recognition, big price money and complete control of the game. You can't have it all, escpailly not with Nintendo and a game, which features all of their important IPs.

Click to shrink...

There is nothing wrong in competitive players wanting their game to be successful so that they can dedicate their time to actually play the game without having to rely on a second job. Not to mention TOs, commentators and other parts of the community who are just scrapping by because the scene doesn't provide enough.

All they want is their game to receive the minimum support any other esport receives from the developer so that they can continue competing and growing the community.

I can understand your reservations based on your Brawl experiences in the past and, by the way you described it, I'm assuming you are also a Smash players outside the US, but Brawl happened 12 years ago, I will say the community has changed and evolved since them in terms of internal cross-games collaboration and support. Many of the biggest events run both games quite seamlessly, which obviously makes sense.

 

[HeroR]

Are people in this thread really saying that Nintendo.. cares about what went on the Smash community in terms of pedophilia and harassment? Really?
Nintendo didn't care about the community before those things happened, Nintendo didn't care while those things happened and they were not known, and Nintendo doesn't care now that those things are known.

Click to shrink...

They care to a point, which is why they keep the Smash community at arm distance. Close enough to used them at events and to slap C&Ds, but far enough that when something like last summer happens the brand of Smash isn't tainted, only that part of the community. Like if the Splatoon community was revealed to be a cesspool of toxicity, pedo, rapists, and other nasty behaviors then that would directly damaged Splatoon and Nintendo since they foster that community.

 

[typhy]

From you, I would honestly really appreciate you helping me understand how railing against the Smash scene for its toxic, dangerous culture can be seen as exploitative of victims. I just don't see it.

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ive cooled down a bit so let me respond to this Asriel, it's going to be a bit long and meandering and personal and i dont really care if anyone reads it, i just need to vent a bit.

i'm a very out queer person who has been in the smash scene in person since 2008 and online in forums even before then. since that time i have been yelled at as i was walking out of the door to "wear a condom so you dont get AIDS," been refused a handshake because i'm a "fag," entered a manipulative relationship when i was way too young that happened through smash, and so, so much more. despite all this i kept going to tournaments and chatting with people every single time i could because it was the only place i really had to be myself and socialize with people like me and i had a ton of fun doing it. this included trans people who were constantly misgendered, women who were looked down on, racial minorities who people made awful jokes about constantly, and hell, just kinda weird dudes who got shit on for no reason at all. they ALL went to EVERY tournament they could, and most of us were prepared for all of that. and through it all i complained my ass off about toxic people for a decade, and no one listened. these are issues that every large community has. smash isn't special.

and when smash's version of #metoo hit, i was disgusted and wanted to throw up all day. people i didn't know were bad people were on that list and i didn't know what to think. but then i woke up the next day, filled with such pride that i was in a community with all my friends who wouldnt put up with bullshit like this any more, and incredibly glad that something was finally happening about it and we could move on and grow stronger together and finally rid of a few of the toxic people i knew of, and former friends that aren't friends any more. and they'll never play smash again and we are better for it.

so now, months later, when people like Chumunga64, Kitty Paws, AgeEighty, etc etc etc come into a thread without any knowledge of the community at all and say things like "fuck this community full of child rapists", "nintendo was right to cut that toxic community off", chastising "the community" for "their behavior", and the like and just get to close X on the thread without ever thinking about it again, they're talking about me and my friends. they dont give a rat's ass about me, or my trans friends, or my black friends, or any one of us that still and forever will consider ourselves smash players. you heard it from their mouths directly and so many others here - fuck all of us and this whole toxic community, we all deserve it. that's not an exaggeration, that's what a ton of people *in this thread* said almost verbatim, and even worse sometimes.

and it always leaves me thinking: how is it now, when things are finally coming to a head and starting to get better, finally, finally after a decade of people like me and my friends trying to kick shitty people out and it finally starting to happen, people on a fairly "progressive" website act this way towards the community i'm a part of like this? why now?

it's heart-wrenching to me, not because it affects me per se (i can handle it), but because i know that behind that list of 100 smash players that had credible accusations and the many more unnamed, there are at least 100 people exactly like me behind every single one of those accusations, and i'd bet my life on it that most of them are still going to tournaments and playing because we all love each other. we all hear and see those posts, and we will continue calling ourselves part of the smash community regardless of how fucking morons on resetera feel about us. and it'll hurt some of my friends to see people wish for the destruction of what they've built, but they'll still call themselves smashers and keep playing. that's why it's thoughtless towards victims.

 

[Peleo]

Good interview with Robin, Big House TO:

Big House Organizer Robin Harn talks Nintendo's rocky relationship with Melee, future of Smash

The Big House Tournament Organizer goes through the damage caused by Nintendo's cease and desist letter. Robin "Juggleguy" Harn explains how the war to keep Nintendo involved in esports was lost by the company itself.

www.sportskeeda.com

Do you have any sort of idea on why they avoided just asking directly?

I think it's because the person I talked to didn't know what would happen if I refused. The implication was there's gonna be ramifications, potentially, that we have to escalate to people higher up. I don't know what that meant. There hasn't been an event - or attempted to get shut down - since EVO 2013.

I was like, okay if this means we don't partner together in the future, yeah that's a loss that I'm willing to take because if we don't host something online we don't really come back to anything. So what's the point of trying to skip [events] and play nice for a year? That's not a thing. What do you want me to do? Cancel the event so I can stay partnered in 2021 or 2022? This might be dead if we don't host a year of online events.

That's the part where there's a huge disconnect between me and the person I talked to.

Click to shrink...

I have heard many rumors of TOs making tough decisions so Nintendo wouldn't have to tank PR and so the relationship would be preserved. Have you had any moments like that in your career?

I absolutely have. Nintendo requires certain things to be in place at an event for them to sign off on a license agreement for that event. [...] A lot of Melee TOs like myself we've had to make decisions on the format of our events on what to include and not include in our event to be compliant with what Nintendo requires.

And honestly, a lot of that was in the hopes of a future where we are more actively working with Nintendo to grow the scene even beyond our imaginations. That is, theoretically, the next step to making Smash get to the next level in terms of accessibility and exposure. Now the pendulum has swung, and it's been enough years…

You know, Big House was Nintendo partnered for four years, and there's been no real payoff. There's been no circuit sponsored by Nintendo. No real, actual financial support. So I think a lot of Melee TOs like myself have finally realized it's time to move on from those hopes that we had and that at this point, we're just better off on our own.

The problem is Nintendo, throughout the years, they have tried, however slowly that they do things at the Nintendo pace, they've tried by creating a competitive play department full of people who can talk to these Melee TOs. And they are required to do their due diligence and check in with partnered events. Because of that, there's an open dialogue.

So when I say something like, "Yeah we plan to use Slippi." They might hear that and be like, "Well now I have to go tell that to the higher up and escalate to legal!" And that's unfortunate.

We're in a situation where they are watching some tournaments but not supporting them in a way that's best for the community. People like myself might get punished for having an open dialogue with those Nintendo reps.

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[Fugu]

ive cooled down a bit so let me respond to this Asriel, it's going to be a bit long and meandering and personal and i dont really care if anyone reads it, i just need to vent a bit.

i'm a very out queer person who has been in the smash scene in person since 2008 and online in forums even before then. since that time i have been yelled at as i was walking out of the door to "wear a condom so you dont get AIDS," been refused a handshake because i'm a "fag," entered a manipulative relationship when i was way too young that happened through smash, and so, so much more. despite all this i kept going to tournaments and chatting with people every single time i could because it was the only place i really had to be myself and socialize with people like me and i had a ton of fun doing it. this included trans people who were constantly misgendered, women who were looked down on, racial minorities who people made awful jokes about constantly, and hell, just kinda weird dudes who got shit on for no reason at all. they ALL went to EVERY tournament they could, and most of us were prepared for all of that. and through it all i complained my ass off about toxic people for a decade, and no one listened. these are issues that every large community has. smash isn't special.

and when smash's version of #metoo hit, i was disgusted and wanted to throw up all day. people i didn't know were bad people were on that list and i didn't know what to think. but then i woke up the next day, filled with such pride that i was in a community with all my friends who wouldnt put up with bullshit like this any more, and incredibly glad that something was finally happening about it and we could move on and grow stronger together and finally rid of a few of the toxic people i knew of, and former friends that aren't friends any more. and they'll never play smash again and we are better for it.

so now, months later, when people like Chumunga64, Kitty Paws, AgeEighty, etc etc etc come into a thread without any knowledge of the community at all and say things like "fuck this community full of child rapists", "nintendo was right to cut that toxic community off", chastising "the community" for "their behavior", and the like and just get to close X on the thread without ever thinking about it again, they're talking about me and my friends. they dont give a rat's ass about me, or my trans friends, or my black friends, or any one of us that still and forever will consider ourselves smash players. you heard it from their mouths directly and so many others here - fuck all of us and this whole toxic community, we all deserve it. that's not an exaggeration, that's what a ton of people *in this thread* said almost verbatim, and even worse sometimes.

and it always leaves me thinking: how is it now, when things are finally coming to a head and starting to get better, finally, finally after a decade of people like me and my friends trying to kick shitty people out and it finally starting to happen, people on a fairly "progressive" website act this way towards the community i'm a part of like this? why now?

it's heart-wrenching to me, not because it affects me per se (i can handle it), but because i know that behind that list of 100 smash players that had credible accusations and the many more unnamed, there are at least 100 people exactly like me behind every single one of those accusations, and i'd bet my life on it that most of them are still going to tournaments and playing because we all love each other. we all hear and see those posts, and we will continue calling ourselves part of the smash community regardless of how fucking morons on resetera feel about us. and it'll hurt some of my friends to see people wish for the destruction of what they've built, but they'll still call themselves smashers and keep playing. that's why it's thoughtless towards victims.

Click to shrink...

I really appreciate you posting this even as I bemoan that it probably only happened because of the frankly remarkable lack of empathy on display in this thread.

 

[Vector]

After the flurry of pedophilia allegations coming out of the Smash community im not exactly surprised Nintendo wants zero involvement whatsoever and would rather see it dissipate.

The Smash competitive community is notorious for its toxicity.

Nintendo has no way of reining it in.

 

[Atheerios]

Now this tweet makes a lot of sense...

 

[Peleo]

After the flurry of pedophilia allegations coming out of the Smash community im not exactly surprised Nintendo wants zero involvement whatsoever and would rather see it dissipate.

The Smash competitive community is notorious for its toxicity.

Nintendo has no way of reining it in.

Click to shrink...

Read the full thread, this has happened for years now, not really related to the scandal.

Moreover, even after everything that transpired earlier this year, Nintendo still was going to partner with The Big House, so that clearly is not it.

 

[MistaTwo]

Good interview with Robin, Big House TO:

Big House Organizer Robin Harn talks Nintendo's rocky relationship with Melee, future of Smash

The Big House Tournament Organizer goes through the damage caused by Nintendo's cease and desist letter. Robin "Juggleguy" Harn explains how the war to keep Nintendo involved in esports was lost by the company itself.

www.sportskeeda.com

Click to shrink...

Reading through this now it really feels like the best decision for the overall community would have been to acknowledge Nintendo's concerns about slippi and shift the event to focus on Ultimate. I am sure that sort of decision would have angered the fanbase for that game, of course.

Trying to push forward despite the IP holder and sponsor voicing concerns directly was never going to end well for anyone...

 

[Fugu]

Reading through this now it really feels like the best decision for the overall community would have been to acknowledge Nintendo's concerns about slippi and shift the event to focus on Ultimate. I am sure that sort of decision would have angered the fanbase for that game, of course.

Trying to push forward despite the IP holder and sponsor voicing concerns directly was never going to end well for anyone...

Click to shrink...

TBH is, first and foremost, a Melee event. Accordingly, saying "they should've just cancelled the Melee component" is a bit of a non-sequitur, especially since in 2020 Melee has much better netcode than Ultimate does so even within their respective communities online Melee tournaments are taken far more seriously than online Ultimate tournaments.

 

[MondoMega]

ive cooled down a bit so let me respond to this Asriel, it's going to be a bit long and meandering and personal and i dont really care if anyone reads it, i just need to vent a bit.

i'm a very out queer person who has been in the smash scene in person since 2008 and online in forums even before then. since that time i have been yelled at as i was walking out of the door to "wear a condom so you dont get AIDS," been refused a handshake because i'm a "fag," entered a manipulative relationship when i was way too young that happened through smash, and so, so much more. despite all this i kept going to tournaments and chatting with people every single time i could because it was the only place i really had to be myself and socialize with people like me and i had a ton of fun doing it. this included trans people who were constantly misgendered, women who were looked down on, racial minorities who people made awful jokes about constantly, and hell, just kinda weird dudes who got shit on for no reason at all. they ALL went to EVERY tournament they could, and most of us were prepared for all of that. and through it all i complained my ass off about toxic people for a decade, and no one listened. these are issues that every large community has. smash isn't special.

and when smash's version of #metoo hit, i was disgusted and wanted to throw up all day. people i didn't know were bad people were on that list and i didn't know what to think. but then i woke up the next day, filled with such pride that i was in a community with all my friends who wouldnt put up with bullshit like this any more, and incredibly glad that something was finally happening about it and we could move on and grow stronger together and finally rid of a few of the toxic people i knew of, and former friends that aren't friends any more. and they'll never play smash again and we are better for it.

so now, months later, when people like Chumunga64, Kitty Paws, AgeEighty, etc etc etc come into a thread without any knowledge of the community at all and say things like "fuck this community full of child rapists", "nintendo was right to cut that toxic community off", chastising "the community" for "their behavior", and the like and just get to close X on the thread without ever thinking about it again, they're talking about me and my friends. they dont give a rat's ass about me, or my trans friends, or my black friends, or any one of us that still and forever will consider ourselves smash players. you heard it from their mouths directly and so many others here - fuck all of us and this whole toxic community, we all deserve it. that's not an exaggeration, that's what a ton of people *in this thread* said almost verbatim, and even worse sometimes.

and it always leaves me thinking: how is it now, when things are finally coming to a head and starting to get better, finally, finally after a decade of people like me and my friends trying to kick shitty people out and it finally starting to happen, people on a fairly "progressive" website act this way towards the community i'm a part of like this? why now?

it's heart-wrenching to me, not because it affects me per se (i can handle it), but because i know that behind that list of 100 smash players that had credible accusations and the many more unnamed, there are at least 100 people exactly like me behind every single one of those accusations, and i'd bet my life on it that most of them are still going to tournaments and playing because we all love each other. we all hear and see those posts, and we will continue calling ourselves part of the smash community regardless of how fucking morons on resetera feel about us. and it'll hurt some of my friends to see people wish for the destruction of what they've built, but they'll still call themselves smashers and keep playing. that's why it's thoughtless towards victims.

Click to shrink...

You're strong for being able to share this with everyone, and you deserve to have a space to vent this out; some of the responses in this thread have truly been appalling.

 

[typhy]

to put it more succinctly: resetera's intensely negative opinion of my community is specifically a result of my friends being brave enough to speak up. and that fucking sucks, my dudes

 

[Deleted member 69942]

Melee players haul CRT monitors to events (ask my SO how many CRTs I own), pay the increasingly exorbitant prices for legitimate copies of the game, and have developed a considerable amount of resources to deal with the dwindling stock of first party Gamecube controllers. They're only running tournaments on emulator now because they absolutely have to.

Click to shrink...

I know. I am not saying that they always used emulation. It was more towards the discussion on emulation that people say it is allowed, which afaik is not allowed. That said, it should be great if Nintendo said: cool due to COVID we allow it only now but afterwards we block it again. Or they are nicer towards it, but from what I understand they are legally in the right to stop the event.

 

[MistaTwo]

TBH is, first and foremost, a Melee event. Accordingly, saying "they should've just cancelled the Melee component" is a bit of a non-sequitur, especially since in 2020 Melee has much better netcode than Ultimate does so even within their respective communities online Melee tournaments are taken far more seriously than online Ultimate tournaments.

Click to shrink...

I understand that of course. I honestly didn't even remember if it had an Ultimate section until reading that article.

But it was basically a choice between having something or nothing.....

 

[Deleted member 69942]

TBH is, first and foremost, a Melee event. Accordingly, saying "they should've just cancelled the Melee component" is a bit of a non-sequitur, especially since in 2020 Melee has much better netcode than Ultimate does so even within their respective communities online Melee tournaments are taken far more seriously than online Ultimate tournaments.

Click to shrink...

The netcode is thirdparty on Melee and puts the netcode of Ultimate in embarrasment. Probably another reason why they do not want it. Nintendo is super conservative and I dont think you can force them to change. Unless their leadership changes as people like Miyamoto are very conservative. I hope when Miyamoto really leaves Nintendo things will start to get better for Nintendo. Though with Furukawa in the leadership I doubt it as I feel he is quite conservative still whereas I thought Iwata seemed much more progressive.

 

[HeroR]

to put it more succinctly: resetera's intensely negative opinion of my community is specifically a result of my friends being brave enough to speak up. and that fucking sucks, my dudes

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I would say most people on this forum didn't like the Smash community before then because Smash was associated with some very immature behavior. Learning that the Smash community was reeked with pedo and rapists just made things worst and turned what was disliked or not taking the community seriously to righteous anger and hatred. This on top of what happened his year at EVO and what a crappy year 2020 have been for all of us, and you get a lot of people not caring what happens to Smash and feel whatever misery that falls before them is deserved.

The netcode is thirdparty on Melee and puts the netcode of Ultimate in embarrasment. Probably another reason why they do not want it. Nintendo is super conservative and I dont think you can force them to change. Unless their leadership changes as people like Miyamoto are very conservative. I hope when Miyamoto really leaves Nintendo things will start to get better for Nintendo. Though with Furukawa in the leadership I doubt it as I feel he is quite conservative still whereas I thought Iwata seemed much more progressive.

Click to shrink...

Not sure what Miyamoto have to do with any of this since he's only involved with the creation side, not really the business aspect of Nintendo. And Nintendo was doing this stuff when Iwata was president, so not sure how you got the idea that he was progressive on this aspect. Unless you think Miyamoto somehow influence him.

 

[Elfforkusu]

After reading this, there's virtually nothing about Nintendo actively working against the smash community. Nintendo just don't respond. Nintendo clearly don't want to associate themselves with the smash community, and who can blame them.

Click to shrink...

Did you miss the part where they gave Red Bull and Twitch the runaround for setting up a Smash circuit? Do you think there wasn't man-months of effort tied up in those negotiations?

"Nintendo just don't respond" is literally the worst thing they could've done. They strung everyone along and wasted everyone's time. A "No" would've been a hundred times better.

And that's just one example!

ive cooled down a bit so let me respond to this Asriel, it's going to be a bit long and meandering and personal and i dont really care if anyone reads it, i just need to vent a bit.

i'm a very out queer person who has been in the smash scene in person since 2008 and online in forums even before then. since that time i have been yelled at as i was walking out of the door to "wear a condom so you dont get AIDS," been refused a handshake because i'm a "fag," entered a manipulative relationship when i was way too young that happened through smash, and so, so much more. despite all this i kept going to tournaments and chatting with people every single time i could because it was the only place i really had to be myself and socialize with people like me and i had a ton of fun doing it. this included trans people who were constantly misgendered, women who were looked down on, racial minorities who people made awful jokes about constantly, and hell, just kinda weird dudes who got shit on for no reason at all. they ALL went to EVERY tournament they could, and most of us were prepared for all of that. and through it all i complained my ass off about toxic people for a decade, and no one listened. these are issues that every large community has. smash isn't special.

and when smash's version of #metoo hit, i was disgusted and wanted to throw up all day. people i didn't know were bad people were on that list and i didn't know what to think. but then i woke up the next day, filled with such pride that i was in a community with all my friends who wouldnt put up with bullshit like this any more, and incredibly glad that something was finally happening about it and we could move on and grow stronger together and finally rid of a few of the toxic people i knew of, and former friends that aren't friends any more. and they'll never play smash again and we are better for it.

so now, months later, when people like Chumunga64, Kitty Paws, AgeEighty, etc etc etc come into a thread without any knowledge of the community at all and say things like "fuck this community full of child rapists", "nintendo was right to cut that toxic community off", chastising "the community" for "their behavior", and the like and just get to close X on the thread without ever thinking about it again, they're talking about me and my friends. they dont give a rat's ass about me, or my trans friends, or my black friends, or any one of us that still and forever will consider ourselves smash players. you heard it from their mouths directly and so many others here - fuck all of us and this whole toxic community, we all deserve it. that's not an exaggeration, that's what a ton of people *in this thread* said almost verbatim, and even worse sometimes.

and it always leaves me thinking: how is it now, when things are finally coming to a head and starting to get better, finally, finally after a decade of people like me and my friends trying to kick shitty people out and it finally starting to happen, people on a fairly "progressive" website act this way towards the community i'm a part of like this? why now?

it's heart-wrenching to me, not because it affects me per se (i can handle it), but because i know that behind that list of 100 smash players that had credible accusations and the many more unnamed, there are at least 100 people exactly like me behind every single one of those accusations, and i'd bet my life on it that most of them are still going to tournaments and playing because we all love each other. we all hear and see those posts, and we will continue calling ourselves part of the smash community regardless of how fucking morons on resetera feel about us. and it'll hurt some of my friends to see people wish for the destruction of what they've built, but they'll still call themselves smashers and keep playing. that's why it's thoughtless towards victims.

Click to shrink...

Just want to say I really appreciate this post.

 

[blueredandgold]

Been following this and not wanting to post and come off looking apathetic or say anything unhelpful, only want to add things instead of clouding what's clearly an important issue.

And as luck would have it there's a new interview and even a threadmark as type.

I think we can all agree this is more than one important discussion going on at once and people are annoyed at all the noise rather than each other.

I would gladly still like to play SSBU with anybody here if that happens in a discord or something too.

The Melee love being used a crutch or being weaponised has always sucked, and it's a great game with lots of ardent fans (I count myself among them).

My pet theory has always been it's very much like 90s era Star Wars or at least the way those fans would 'disagree' with the way that franchise was handled.

You can decide whether or not you want to think of the prequels era here, up to you.

But I say again, we are talking about multiple very important subjects at once in here and we are all of us getting anxious. We are allowed to be passionate, we are allowed to enquire, but we shouldn't attack, or try to look like we are.

 

[Friskyrum]

ive cooled down a bit so let me respond to this Asriel, it's going to be a bit long and meandering and personal and i dont really care if anyone reads it, i just need to vent a bit.

i'm a very out queer person who has been in the smash scene in person since 2008 and online in forums even before then. since that time i have been yelled at as i was walking out of the door to "wear a condom so you dont get AIDS," been refused a handshake because i'm a "fag," entered a manipulative relationship when i was way too young that happened through smash, and so, so much more. despite all this i kept going to tournaments and chatting with people every single time i could because it was the only place i really had to be myself and socialize with people like me and i had a ton of fun doing it. this included trans people who were constantly misgendered, women who were looked down on, racial minorities who people made awful jokes about constantly, and hell, just kinda weird dudes who got shit on for no reason at all. they ALL went to EVERY tournament they could, and most of us were prepared for all of that. and through it all i complained my ass off about toxic people for a decade, and no one listened. these are issues that every large community has. smash isn't special.

and when smash's version of #metoo hit, i was disgusted and wanted to throw up all day. people i didn't know were bad people were on that list and i didn't know what to think. but then i woke up the next day, filled with such pride that i was in a community with all my friends who wouldnt put up with bullshit like this any more, and incredibly glad that something was finally happening about it and we could move on and grow stronger together and finally rid of a few of the toxic people i knew of, and former friends that aren't friends any more. and they'll never play smash again and we are better for it.

so now, months later, when people like Chumunga64, Kitty Paws, AgeEighty, etc etc etc come into a thread without any knowledge of the community at all and say things like "fuck this community full of child rapists", "nintendo was right to cut that toxic community off", chastising "the community" for "their behavior", and the like and just get to close X on the thread without ever thinking about it again, they're talking about me and my friends. they dont give a rat's ass about me, or my trans friends, or my black friends, or any one of us that still and forever will consider ourselves smash players. you heard it from their mouths directly and so many others here - fuck all of us and this whole toxic community, we all deserve it. that's not an exaggeration, that's what a ton of people *in this thread* said almost verbatim, and even worse sometimes.

and it always leaves me thinking: how is it now, when things are finally coming to a head and starting to get better, finally, finally after a decade of people like me and my friends trying to kick shitty people out and it finally starting to happen, people on a fairly "progressive" website act this way towards the community i'm a part of like this? why now?

it's heart-wrenching to me, not because it affects me per se (i can handle it), but because i know that behind that list of 100 smash players that had credible accusations and the many more unnamed, there are at least 100 people exactly like me behind every single one of those accusations, and i'd bet my life on it that most of them are still going to tournaments and playing because we all love each other. we all hear and see those posts, and we will continue calling ourselves part of the smash community regardless of how fucking morons on resetera feel about us. and it'll hurt some of my friends to see people wish for the destruction of what they've built, but they'll still call themselves smashers and keep playing. that's why it's thoughtless towards victims.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for this post. I've tried to put it into words my self and it's always been in the back of my mind every time the discussion comes to it but I've never really been able to bring it out.

Every melee thread is the same. I could go into a big rant about this but I can't bring my self to do it as I feel like I would be wasting my time but you basically went into it for me.

 

[Fugu]

I understand that of course. I honestly didn't even remember if it had an Ultimate section until reading that article.

But it was basically a choice between having something or nothing.....

Click to shrink...

No, it was a choice between having nothing and having a different kind of nothing for the sake of preserving a relationship that was, by that point, not worth maintaining. The entire premise behind TBHO is only really possible with slippi, and if it was Ultimate-only it'd either be one of the dozens of heavily region-locked events or a shitshow.

I can't imagine a universe in which it would have made sense for them to host an Ultimate-only event.

The netcode is thirdparty on Melee and puts the netcode of Ultimate in embarrasment. Probably another reason why they do not want it. Nintendo is super conservative and I dont think you can force them to change. Unless their leadership changes as people like Miyamoto are very conservative. I hope when Miyamoto really leaves Nintendo things will start to get better for Nintendo. Though with Furukawa in the leadership I doubt it as I feel he is quite conservative still whereas I thought Iwata seemed much more progressive.

Click to shrink...

There are tonnes of other tournaments that are still going ahead with slippi. Hell, there was one less than 36 hours ago. Nintendo generally does not pay attention to Melee, which leaves us with the impression that the real reason TBH was canned was not slippi but because of their relationship with Nintendo, and that's... honestly really stupid.

 

[Dr. Dr. Dogtooth]

There is nothing wrong in competitive players wanting their game to be successful so that they can dedicate their time to actually play the game without having to rely on a second job. Not to mention TOs, commentators and other parts of the community who are just scrapping by because the scene doesn't provide enough.

Click to shrink...

I like competitive Smash Brothers. I watch it often and played some small tournaments myself. I also love Melee, if have a strong, personal connection to the game. But everybody has to finally face the truth, that being angry at Nintendo and trying to walk around them never worked. The community made more progress in the last years by being cooperative. Then we had multiple scandals and now the communoty tries to push for emulation. What do people suspect Nintendo to do?

All they want is their game to receive the minimum support any other esport receives from the developer so that they can continue competing and growing the community.

Click to shrink...

Those developers need the competitive community much more, then Nintendo does. So there is a different kind of synergy going on.

I can understand your reservations based on your Brawl experiences in the past and, by the way you described it, I'm assuming you are also a Smash players outside the US, but Brawl happened 12 years ago, I will say the community has changed and evolved since them in terms of internal cross-games collaboration and support. Many of the biggest events run both games quite seamlessly, which obviously makes sense.

Click to shrink...

It really doesn't. I remember the pre-release tournament of Smash 4 at E3, where many different players from Melee and Brawl were invited. Direly after the show, one player was attacking Nintendo, because she felt Nintendo was trying to kill Project M.

Hell, while i was tying to look for the name of this player, the SmashWiki list many controversies with the other player of that tournament:

• Lilo: "[...] she gained recognition because of her infographics about sexual assault/harassment in female smashers. "
• milktea: "milktea stopped entering major tournaments in 2008 due to issues with how the Melee community treated her as a player"
• DJ Nintendo: " DJ Nintendo, along with many others exposed for sexual misconduct during this time, was soon permanently banned from attending events in the Smash community. "
• ZeRo: " On July 2nd, 2020, amidst a wave of sexual harassment allegations in the community, [...] ".
• MacD: "[...] amid a wave of sexual harassment and assault allegations in the Smash community, [...]"
• HungryBox: " [...] has issued an apology after anonymous allegations surfaced accusing the pro of sexual misconduct at tournaments. "

 

[Oddish1]

Did you miss the part where they gave Red Bull and Twitch the runaround for setting up a Smash circuit? Do you think there wasn't man-months of effort tied up in those negotiations?

"Nintendo just don't respond" is literally the worst thing they could've done. They strung everyone along and wasted everyone's time. A "No" would've been a hundred times better.


Just want to say I really appreciate this post.

Click to shrink...

This assumes that there wasn't any interest on their part. Which is kinda dumb because a company isn't wasting their time or another company's time just for the sake of giving them a "runaround".

An explanation that makes sense is that maybe NOA had interest but they were held up due to policy differences between them or NCL or even policy disputes happening entirely within NOA. This also would have been happening from 2015 to 2018 which was a turbulent time for Nintendo between the failure of the Wii U and getting the Switch out the door as well as changing leadership. If anything the Twitch and Red Bull bit kinda confirms that Nintendo did have some intent on setting up a circuit but fell through for reasons that we are not privy to.

 

[Elfforkusu]

There are tonnes of other tournaments that are still going ahead with slippi. Hell, there was one less than 36 hours ago. Nintendo generally does not pay attention to Melee, which leaves us with the impression that the real reason TBH was canned was not slippi but because of their relationship with Nintendo, and that's... honestly really stupid.

Click to shrink...

The other thing here is Nintendo's consistently remarkable lack of communication. It might be as simple as "don't name drop Slippi in your PR", or have something to do with entry fees, or tournament size, or the history as a Nintendo-sponsored event in the past, or some combination of all those things. But there's no way to know what they actually want, because they probably don't even know what they want.

 

[Fugu]

Direly after the show, one player was attacking Nintendo, because she felt Nintendo was trying to kill Project M.

Click to shrink...

Nintendo was trying to kill Project M. They did kill Project M. It's dead expressly because Nintendo threatened to "Evo 2013" events that PM was at.

 

[Elfforkusu]

This assumes that there wasn't any interest on their part. Which is kinda dumb because a company isn't wasting their time or another company's time just for the sake of giving them a "runaround".

An explanation that makes sense is that maybe NOA had interest but they were held up due to policy differences between them or NCL or even policy disputes happening entirely within NOA. This also would have been happening from 2015 to 2018 which was a turbulent time for Nintendo between the failure of the Wii U and getting the Switch out the door as well as changing leadership. If anything the Twitch and Red Bull bit kinda confirms that Nintendo did have some intent on setting up a circuit but fell through for reasons that we are not privy to.

Click to shrink...

If it were an isolated occurrence, it would be easier to buy into good faith explanations. This was not an isolated occurrence.

But it doesn't really matter why they gave them the runaround -- corporate decisions are the sum of dozens of different individual decisions throughout a company, and the net result is what matters. The net result is consistent: don't work with Nintendo on e-sports. If you partner with them. If you try to accommodate them... it won't work out. It's bad business. They'll fuck you over.

 

[TimeFire]

Nintendo was trying to kill Project M. They did kill Project M. It's dead expressly because Nintendo threatened to "Evo 2013" events that PM was at.

Click to shrink...

Not only that but Nintendo threw poor GIMR under the bus by saying "hey, the only reason why we're not helping with a tourney circuit is because of Project M, wink wink" and then peacing out when PM got removed

Poor guy still gets people commenting "GIMR killed PM" to this day

 

[NHarmonic.]

If I were Nintendo and watched the competitive scene around my cute mascot brawler morph into the hideous creature the Smash community became, I wouldn't want it around, either.

Click to shrink...

I know the community is kinda crazy, but it's not like the abuse of minors happens while the tournaments are being played / on tournament grounds right? It's outside of it.

 

[Dr. Dr. Dogtooth]

Nintendo was trying to kill Project M. They did kill Project M. It's dead expressly because Nintendo threatened to "Evo 2013" events that PM was at.

Click to shrink...

Of course, Nintendo didn't like Project M. No surprises there. But if you don't like there stand, why would you go to a promotional tournament and then stab them in the back afterwards? Then people act surprised, when Nintendo wants to control over the messaging around there game.

The netcode is thirdparty on Melee and puts the netcode of Ultimate in embarrasment. Probably another reason why they do not want it.

Click to shrink...

Let's be real here, the netcode of Slippy is VERY selective. It only works in a 1vs1 fight without items. Also you have mainly people, who actually want a good connection. Not casual player using Wifi. Smash has actually much more moving parts and a bigger audience with different connection levels, which make it hard to create a good netcode.
Good Netcode actually is just a great use of "Smoke and Mirrors". That's why games, which are much more Offline-Play focused, have a harder time online. Smash biggest problem with Online-Play is the age of its foundation. Sakurai reuse a lot of elements from previous games, so that the games can become even bigger. Those elements were never designed with Online-Play in mind. So Nintendo would need to build Smash from scratch. Throwing away all the older elements and rework it for Online-Play, so that more "Smoke and Mirrors" can be used.

 

[Oddish1]

If it were an isolated occurrence, it would be easier to buy into good faith explanations. This was not an isolated occurrence.

But it doesn't really matter why they gave them the runaround -- corporate decisions are the sum of dozens of different individual decisions throughout a company, and the net result is what matters. The net result is consistent: don't work with Nintendo on e-sports. If you partner with them. If you try to accommodate them... it won't work out. It's bad business. They'll fuck you over.

Click to shrink...

Working on it through three years is a pretty big "isolated occurrence."

To me, it sounds like the complaints from the community are less "nintendo is actively stopping us" and more "nintendo isn't supporting us as much as we like". Which is a fine criticism but also isn't as dramatic as the former and I imagine wouldn't get as much support.

 

[JustJavi]

The first post after the op literally nails what I think about this situation.

 

[Elfforkusu]

Working on it through three years is a pretty big "isolated occurrence."

To me, it sounds like the complaints from the community are less "nintendo is actively stopping us" and more "nintendo isn't supporting us as much as we like". Which is a fine criticism but also isn't as dramatic as the former and I imagine wouldn't get as much support.

Click to shrink...

All Nintendo has to do to offer "support" here is to get out of the way. There's no need for financial support at this point -- just give tournaments the right to stream and to run events without endless corporate shenanigans. Nintendo is actively stopping Smash from growing. That's the point! All they have to do is get out of the way, but they won't do that.

The first post after the op literally nails what I think about this situation.

Click to shrink...

Read this and try again

ive cooled down a bit so let me respond to this Asriel, it's going to be a bit long and meandering and personal and i dont really care if anyone reads it, i just need to vent a bit.

i'm a very out queer person who has been in the smash scene in person since 2008 and online in forums even before then. since that time i have been yelled at as i was walking out of the door to "wear a condom so you dont get AIDS," been refused a handshake because i'm a "fag," entered a manipulative relationship when i was way too young that happened through smash, and so, so much more. despite all this i kept going to tournaments and chatting with people every single time i could because it was the only place i really had to be myself and socialize with people like me and i had a ton of fun doing it. this included trans people who were constantly misgendered, women who were looked down on, racial minorities who people made awful jokes about constantly, and hell, just kinda weird dudes who got shit on for no reason at all. they ALL went to EVERY tournament they could, and most of us were prepared for all of that. and through it all i complained my ass off about toxic people for a decade, and no one listened. these are issues that every large community has. smash isn't special.

and when smash's version of #metoo hit, i was disgusted and wanted to throw up all day. people i didn't know were bad people were on that list and i didn't know what to think. but then i woke up the next day, filled with such pride that i was in a community with all my friends who wouldnt put up with bullshit like this any more, and incredibly glad that something was finally happening about it and we could move on and grow stronger together and finally rid of a few of the toxic people i knew of, and former friends that aren't friends any more. and they'll never play smash again and we are better for it.

so now, months later, when people like Chumunga64, Kitty Paws, AgeEighty, etc etc etc come into a thread without any knowledge of the community at all and say things like "fuck this community full of child rapists", "nintendo was right to cut that toxic community off", chastising "the community" for "their behavior", and the like and just get to close X on the thread without ever thinking about it again, they're talking about me and my friends. they dont give a rat's ass about me, or my trans friends, or my black friends, or any one of us that still and forever will consider ourselves smash players. you heard it from their mouths directly and so many others here - fuck all of us and this whole toxic community, we all deserve it. that's not an exaggeration, that's what a ton of people *in this thread* said almost verbatim, and even worse sometimes.

and it always leaves me thinking: how is it now, when things are finally coming to a head and starting to get better, finally, finally after a decade of people like me and my friends trying to kick shitty people out and it finally starting to happen, people on a fairly "progressive" website act this way towards the community i'm a part of like this? why now?

it's heart-wrenching to me, not because it affects me per se (i can handle it), but because i know that behind that list of 100 smash players that had credible accusations and the many more unnamed, there are at least 100 people exactly like me behind every single one of those accusations, and i'd bet my life on it that most of them are still going to tournaments and playing because we all love each other. we all hear and see those posts, and we will continue calling ourselves part of the smash community regardless of how fucking morons on resetera feel about us. and it'll hurt some of my friends to see people wish for the destruction of what they've built, but they'll still call themselves smashers and keep playing. that's why it's thoughtless towards victims.

Click to shrink...

 

[MondoMega]

The first post after the op literally nails what I think about this situation.

Click to shrink...

Should've kept reading to find out why they're wrong.