-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
How Nintendo Has Hurt the Smash Community: anonymous insider reveals how Nintendo has actively worked against a Smash eSports scene
- Thread starter Atheerios
- Start date
That's certainly the case now, but in the hypothetical scenario where Nintendo provides Capcom-level support to the competitive scene I think there is a definite chance that Nintendo's intended audience is altered.
I feel like the discussion is going completely off the rails.
There isn't anything pointing to Nintendo completely shutting down events because the game is competitive and they want it to be viewed from a casual angle.
Maybe that has happened in the past, but nowadays they seem to be willing to let events go their own way as long as certain lines aren't crossed (emulators/modded content)
Obviously, people in the scene are going to want more official support and such but as we see with today's MVC3 stream it's certainly possible for the FGC communities to thrive even without full-fledged support.
There isn't anything pointing to Nintendo completely shutting down events because the game is competitive and they want it to be viewed from a casual angle.
Maybe that has happened in the past, but nowadays they seem to be willing to let events go their own way as long as certain lines aren't crossed (emulators/modded content)
Obviously, people in the scene are going to want more official support and such but as we see with today's MVC3 stream it's certainly possible for the FGC communities to thrive even without full-fledged support.
You're calling me a brick wall but you're the one replying with "it doesn't" with no additional substantiation. Pot meet kettle.
I don't think the courting of Nintendo to try and get an e-sports scene jumpstarted is ever gonna stop, if that helps. There seems to be so much potential money on table for corporations to ever really let the discussion die down. Even if Twitch conversations fell through after 3 years, I would be really surprised if that deterred them from trying again. Especially since they apparently had something in place already before being dropped. It's sorta the one thing you can count on in a capitalist system. Someone will keep trying until Nintendo realizes the benefit, either through some change in leadership or further maturing of the professional e-sports scene.
I defiantly think Nintendo should step back and be more hands-off at this point, but I can see them not wanting to let other companies get involved in something so closely tied to their brand image without having total control (aka. The Nintendo Way (tm).
For what it's worth, I don't think Nintendo shutting downthe Big House was a good idea, especially in a COVID year.
I don't understand your point of view. They have treated the scene with disdain in the past, but the sexual allegations haven't come out until this year, so what is your reasoning for Nintendo's behavior prior to now?
This 100%. The game is also a huge hit everytime a new one comes out so I don't see what they gain from supporting it.
It's not like the Smash community didnt suck before this year either, it just didn't openly have pedophiles in it.
street fighter
marvel vs capcom
tekken
divekick
various TCGs
all of them competitive, but all of them are aimed at all audiences and encourage new players to join (and they do!). and you know how all of them continue to get new players? by featuring cool characters doing dope shit in competitive settings.
just because a game is competitive and has that sort of support in mind doesn't mean people are turned off from them. if you were right, all of the things listed would've died off YEARS ago because the more casual players are the ones buying up all those copies.
now I can see how this can be off-putting to bad players who don't have the drive to improve and learn, but to people who see a cool game and its competitive scene and think "wow look at all this cool shit" it just leads to bigger and better things
There was a player who was dating a minor during the brawl era and would openly admit it. But since some called it a "different time" no one really question it much. So it did have one person being open to it.
Nintendo doesnt like wasting resources in esports whats benefits them in having both Melee and ultimate competitive esports?
No publisher supports same games from the same series, you dont see capcom supporting mvc2 or SFIV for a reason.
As long as nintendo is developing new smash games, they dont see a point in supporting an esports scene because the risk of doing so, just ask capcom or Arcys, were they need to take into account esports with modern game design, is not an easy task to do so.
No publisher supports same games from the same series, you dont see capcom supporting mvc2 or SFIV for a reason.
As long as nintendo is developing new smash games, they dont see a point in supporting an esports scene because the risk of doing so, just ask capcom or Arcys, were they need to take into account esports with modern game design, is not an easy task to do so.
I appreciate you making your position clear from the start lmao.
First post really nails it. The Smash community is petty, toxic, disgusting, and predatory. There are far too many victims in this scene and so little action from the fans and the personalities. Hell, you can't even get a lot of them to bathe in their own hotel rooms. Toss in the normal toxicity that comes with a supported competitive scene and Smash won't be the game it tries hard to be.
This is pretty apt. I was never interested in most fighters outside of SF2 and some SNK ones until I saw some of the earlier pre-Evo tournament footage from Battle by the Bay which got me heavily invested in the Super Turbo community for a time.
It was the competitive community itself that got me interested in playing more fighting games. Seeing people play at that high level attracts an audience and will entice folks to pick up the game and play it.
Making a game targeting all ages / everyone has absolutely nothing to do with it. A community that embraces more people to play the game of all levels of skill is a healthy one that promotes growth.
It's undeniable that a ton more people got invested into wanting to try 3rd Strike (which by all metrics the CPS3 was basically a failure) entirely because of EVO moment 37. It kind of speaks for itself really.
The issue with that is that a lot of what they do to hurt Melee hurts Ultimate too because the communities are so tightly connected. It drives away viewership, sponsors, and organizers that are shared between both games. If their goal was to get the most promotional value possible out of Ultimate tournaments they'd be better off ignoring Melee completely and let it exist as its own thing rather than actively sabotaging it. Though it's not like Nintendo really invests in the Ultimate community anyway
HEY! Our support at SNK is mostly grassroots and focuses on local events but we do officially support literally every single fighting game ever created by SNK, as long as it's an official release.
Rampant speculation on my part, but competitive Smash--especially Melee, is primarily a thing in the West. I wouldn't be surprised if it's mostly NoJ dragging their heels here. But yeah, I think most of the problems are obvious. How people like to play Smash is irrelevant, Nintendo markets it as a party game. The amount of money they could reap from hypothetical esports earnings doesn't matter to them because Smash games have an extremely long tail sales-wise and with the biggest icons in video games duking it out the thing basically publicizes itself. Character reveals have the capability of breaking Twitter for God's sake. They do, as the anonymous twitlonger author said, still probably appreciate the star power that people like Leffen and Hbox have though, as long as it's under the table.
As for Melee, considering the very strange and distressing fact that it's one of the few big successful first party Nintendo games on the Gamecube not to ever get a second look, they have even less incentive to do anything with that game. What's funny is that they also acknowledge its elephant-in-the-room presence as one of their most stubbornly popular titles by the fact that they made special Gamecube controllers and adapters for Smash 4 and Ultimate.
It's also a passionate community full of players and spectators that number in the multiple thousands, who have cherished Smash for going on 20 years now, just as with any other competitive game. I feel like the gross aspects could get cleaned up easier if it had some official support to get some more professional event organizers in the room. I don't like to throw shade at the grassroots TO's, but this year has made it abundantly clear that the way smash tournaments are conducted leave gaping holes open for abuse, which is a byproduct, I think, of a pretty damned large grassroots community that is amazingly popular but with absolutely no oversight.
As for Melee, considering the very strange and distressing fact that it's one of the few big successful first party Nintendo games on the Gamecube not to ever get a second look, they have even less incentive to do anything with that game. What's funny is that they also acknowledge its elephant-in-the-room presence as one of their most stubbornly popular titles by the fact that they made special Gamecube controllers and adapters for Smash 4 and Ultimate.
It's also a passionate community full of players and spectators that number in the multiple thousands, who have cherished Smash for going on 20 years now, just as with any other competitive game. I feel like the gross aspects could get cleaned up easier if it had some official support to get some more professional event organizers in the room. I don't like to throw shade at the grassroots TO's, but this year has made it abundantly clear that the way smash tournaments are conducted leave gaping holes open for abuse, which is a byproduct, I think, of a pretty damned large grassroots community that is amazingly popular but with absolutely no oversight.
So how about they just stop wasting those resources they are already using and let the community thrive without them. Did you read the twitlonger? Smash as an esport (not just Melee) would be significantly bigger without Nintendo's involvement. They have actively inhibited its growth.
SNK, as always, being the real ones. You guys were for a long time the only ones that gave a damn about your latam/brazilian fans. Y'all rock
Thank you for elaborating.
A few points:
1. Those games you cited are developed as competitive games - the majority of mechanics in those games mesh well with a highly competitive play style, rewarding players that take the time to master said mechanics with relatively consistent results. Competitive Smash on the other hand throws out a large portion of the games' mechanics (stages, items, 3+ player games, etc) in order to reduce the influence of random factors or jank - because of this, promotion of a competitive playstylecan be seen as underselling the full mechanical (and commercial) potential of smash.
2. While most sales of those games are indeed from casual players, it's still a different audience imo.Nintendo wants Smash to appeal to people who may be intimidated or turned off by aspects of high level play (quick movements, mechanic abuse, majority male player base). For a game like street fighter, most people buying the game understand that they need to get good or they'll be rekd. A potentially large amount of Smash's audience just wants to see Isabelle, DK, and Princess Peach play a zany game on Hyrule temple with Smash balls on high, and would be deterred from playing if most of their peers had a more competitive mindset.
3. In my previous post, I mentioned that Nintendo probably fears not having total control over a potential competitive community so tied to their IP. Imagine if Nintendo WAS much more involved with the scene and then many accounts of abuse within the community came to light- that would be a huge hit to Nintendo's family-friendly image, which they've continuously prized highly throughout their history as a toy company.
Ultimately, I'm not saying that a game marketed as competitive cannot sell well - rather, I'm saying that it's not a risk Nintendo wants to take.
But nintendo doesnt want their Brand be associate with third parties, that they dont have full control.
We are definitely the exception to the rule, of course, so your point still stands in the context of this discussion.
I do think it is a side effect of our esports program focusing on supporting local events over big tours.
This year was basically going to be our first foray into a larger global event (after a trial run for KOFXIV back in 2017?) before everything had to be postponed indefinitely so even our position could have changed at some point.
Once you get to a point where you are expending millions of dollars and thousands of man-hours into a select catalogue of games, it is natural to start disincentivizing any other games that don't apply.
Nintendo could simply leave it the fuck alone then. They don't have to put a cent toward it. The entire issue is Nintendo wants full ass control over it even though they had absolutely nothing to do with nurturing the community itself outside of the creation of Melee forever ago.
I mean this has been know for awhile. Nintendo advertises tournaments with items and usually non item 1 v 1 tournaments are few. It's sad but it's the reality Nintendo is living in about smash. They just don't see this as competitive at all. I remember when one of their item tourneys was on stream for ultimate and they cut to the announcers talking to show that it wasn't lagging. Absolutely ridiculous.
This argument of them wanting to keep competition out doesn't hold any weight when they're holding giant tournaments in Japan for Splatoon and Arms while actively not supporting tournaments in the West. The disparity of the support is quite disgusting.
It's pretty simple. Nintendo is branded for kids and they will do anything in their powers to keep it that way with their characters.
The smash community has always have that toxic feel and this yea it's at it's worst. I can totally understand why Nintendo doesn't want that to relate to them at all.
Nintendo sees no benefits for tournaments and see bad pr for these tournaments using their characters.
If the community stop buying their games then they'll react in a different way. However, the truth is the majority of users are casual base and honestly don't care about the competitive side at all which is why Nintendo can get away with it.
The smash community has always have that toxic feel and this yea it's at it's worst. I can totally understand why Nintendo doesn't want that to relate to them at all.
Nintendo sees no benefits for tournaments and see bad pr for these tournaments using their characters.
If the community stop buying their games then they'll react in a different way. However, the truth is the majority of users are casual base and honestly don't care about the competitive side at all which is why Nintendo can get away with it.
I guess it also helps that you all (And capcom to a point) are better about keeping your catalog of fighting games on the market than some
Smash is my favorite game franchise of all time, but I don't blame Nintendo at all.
Have you seen how fucking gross the Smash community is? Like, Jesus fucking Christ.
Have you seen how fucking gross the Smash community is? Like, Jesus fucking Christ.
The community does not fit Nintendo's public image whatsoever. They have no issue with competitive pokemon.
Nintendo is trash.
To all the scrubs talking shit about the scene. I don't know how many times this has to be said, but real scenes with bigger followings, music, sports, corporate world, are worse, our scene is actually thankful bad actors were caught and we are growing and making the scene safer as a result. We aren't just sliding it under the rug like the NFL, Hollywood, etc.
I love how the smash scene handled it. Some casuals that don't go to events might be salty that their favorite players are absent, but the people that actually go to events are happy to let those people go. A safer and more exclusive communiy is what we want.
Resetera seems to be filled with scrubs that can't appreciate competitive play. 🤷🏽♂️ It's disgusting.
To all the scrubs talking shit about the scene. I don't know how many times this has to be said, but real scenes with bigger followings, music, sports, corporate world, are worse, our scene is actually thankful bad actors were caught and we are growing and making the scene safer as a result. We aren't just sliding it under the rug like the NFL, Hollywood, etc.
I love how the smash scene handled it. Some casuals that don't go to events might be salty that their favorite players are absent, but the people that actually go to events are happy to let those people go. A safer and more exclusive communiy is what we want.
Resetera seems to be filled with scrubs that can't appreciate competitive play. 🤷🏽♂️ It's disgusting.
For those bashing the entire Smash community: if you really gave a fuck about abuse victims, you'd want Nintendo to support the Smash scene.
Smash being a grassroots community for so long is what led to abuse being so rampant in the community. Nintendo supporting the community would give it much needed structure, and real consequence for abusers.
At the end of the day, people throwing their hands up about the Smash community are missing the forest for the trees. The community will still exist regardless of Nintendo ignoring it, and it's systemically still ripe for abusers to prey upon others. Nintendo cleaning it up would help tremendously.
Smash being a grassroots community for so long is what led to abuse being so rampant in the community. Nintendo supporting the community would give it much needed structure, and real consequence for abusers.
At the end of the day, people throwing their hands up about the Smash community are missing the forest for the trees. The community will still exist regardless of Nintendo ignoring it, and it's systemically still ripe for abusers to prey upon others. Nintendo cleaning it up would help tremendously.
Hmm given how eager they are to support Splatoon and Arms, I wonder if they are more hesitant to support Smash because they themselves don't fully own everything in Smash. Not even talking about Ultimate, talking about Melee. Like, Nintendo doesn't fully own the Pokémon IP. And I think the rights situation around Mother is also a little weird.
And multiple outside composers are involved with Smash and music rights can be messy. Who knows if Nintendo owns all of that.
I dunno, the contrast between their support of other games and Smash is just a little odd.
And multiple outside composers are involved with Smash and music rights can be messy. Who knows if Nintendo owns all of that.
I dunno, the contrast between their support of other games and Smash is just a little odd.
100% the people with anti-melee hate aren't actually thinking, it's all emotion.
Not our fault Melee is better than the latest Smash games 🤷🏽♂️.
I also think we should reward communities for having successful Me Too like movements. If this is the lasting result from them it only encourages other scenes to hide bad behavior rather than actively engaging with it out in the open. This stuff happens in other scenes, anime, DND, pokemon, YuGiOh, etc. We just handled it publicaly which I'm super proud of.
I personally think that the lack of non-grassroots influence is what led to the monstrous events and monstrous people involved in the scene. After all, there aren't any comissions, aren't any fines to pay, aren't any concrete ways to ban players from a scene, aren't even consistent rules regarding things like alcohol on a tournament to tournament basis (let alone locals). This isn't a situation where the community AND the company can shut down those who are horrible people. Instead it's entirely on the community, with no authorities other than individual organizers and popular players (some of which unsurprisingly were those that should've been shut down). And this has been a scene with no internet presence for play, if people wanted to play they had to go in person, to locals. 0 other choices. I can only think that had a larger company created a circuit and implemented standard competitive play things like the above, Melee would not only be different as a whole, but different for the better of the community & those within.
Alternatively, as people earlier in the thread have suggested, Nintendo could stand the fuck down and give the Smash community the ability to police itself, because it's much harder with Nintendo's presence.
After the abuse claims came to light, plenty of community leaders castigated the abusers and publicly offered suggestions as to make the community safer, from adult supervisors monitoring the event, to separate tournaments for children. Introducing sponsors would definitely help with structuring bringing these ideas to fruition.
But, Nintendo continues to have their foot on the community's neck. And the community isn't going away regardless of the wishes of drive-by posters.
tl;dr Nintendo shit or get off the pot
After the abuse claims came to light, plenty of community leaders castigated the abusers and publicly offered suggestions as to make the community safer, from adult supervisors monitoring the event, to separate tournaments for children. Introducing sponsors would definitely help with structuring bringing these ideas to fruition.
But, Nintendo continues to have their foot on the community's neck. And the community isn't going away regardless of the wishes of drive-by posters.
tl;dr Nintendo shit or get off the pot
That's what I don't get about Era constantly shitting on the Smash community over this. The community owned up to it. The abusers are no longer part of the community. People are actually upset about a successful Me Too movement that ousted abusers.
Era discussion of competitive Smash and especially Melee is utterly embarrassing, and far more toxic than the communities they love shitting on so much.
Everyone saying "well duh they don't wanna engage with Smash, it's toxic!" is missing the point. If they don't wanna engage with it then leave it the fuck alone and stop trying to ruin it.
Yeah, can you believe a community policed itself and outed the few abusers within it in order to better itself? How fucking disgusting, right?
The lack of nuance in your post is disrespectful to those abused brave enough to step forward.
Yeah, can you believe a community policed itself and outed the few abusers within it in order to better itself? How fucking disgusting, right?
The lack of nuance in your post is disrespectful to those abused brave enough to step forward.
Top tier developers, Bottom tier company.
Pokemon literally had convicted pedophiles in its scene. I doubt any of that has to do with this current attitude, especially considering the article in the OP that everyone seemingly refuses to even read about you know, this being a thing that's always happened with Nintendo.
Pokemon literally had convicted pedophiles in its scene. I doubt any of that has to do with this current attitude, especially considering the article in the OP that everyone seemingly refuses to even read about you know, this being a thing that's always happened with Nintendo.
