How Nintendo Has Hurt the Smash Community: anonymous insider reveals how Nintendo has actively worked against a Smash eSports scene

[Atheerios]

This is getting a lot of attention.

To begin, I want to state that I am not a journalist. What I'm writing below is directly from what I've been told by the individuals who work at these companies or are deeply familiar with the business dealings of these companies by the nature of their position in esports. I did not obtain emails, contracts, or documents to verify their claims, I am merely trusting their word. If a journalist wants to take it to the next level to check everything, I would encourage it.

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However, Nintendo's stance feels less innocent when you understand that they also deliberately prevent other entities from helping our scene through various actions, or inaction. Furthermore, these acts have gone on while stamping their names on our grassroot events, or inviting a few of our personalities to their events. We regularly get a smidgen of hope that they're taking steps in the right direction, but no significant changes ever take place. They directly benefit from our community's existence while providing relatively little support and taking actions that hurt our scene.

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This note is written to shed light on the different ways Nintendo has stopped the scene from growing. As a part of this community, you deserve to know what many top players and influencers in the Smash scene have known for years. The only reason I speak on this now is because I feel we're now at the point where we have nothing to lose. In the past, we'd be afraid to speak publicly because there was some hope that we were SO close to having a real esports relationship with Nintendo, only to have that opportunity consistently slip away.

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I recommend reading the whole thing, as it basically explains how multiple companies have approached Nintendo about running official Smash tournaments, yet Nintendo always backs off or just stops cooperating.

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Some reactions from pro players:

 

[AgeEighty]

If I were Nintendo and watched the competitive scene around my cute mascot brawler morph into the hideous creature the Smash community became, I wouldn't want it around, either.

 

[deep_dish]

If I were Nintendo and watched the competitive scene around my cute mascot brawler morph into the hideous creature the Smash community became, I wouldn't want it around, either.

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This is correct.

 

[Chumunga64]

Yeah, I figured Nintendo was like this, the signs were all there

 

[Aaronrules380]

Honestly I wonder if Nintendo would be more on board with the idea of a league like this if they specifically limited it to the newest game only and completely cut out Melee (and any other older game in the franchise). I noticed that all of the proposed leagues included a Melee section and I do wonder if in Nintendo's eyes promoting the Melee scene distracts from the previous games (especially given what was said about the twitch league in this twitlonger)

 

[Arzak]

If I were Nintendo and watched the competitive scene around my cute mascot brawler morph into the hideous creature the Smash community became, I wouldn't want it around, either.

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Read the whole thing in 2 minutes eh?

Or they're responsible for not interveining and controlling the scene. It is much more difficult for a grass roots community to police abhorrent behaviors whereas an overseeing corporation would have a much easier time.

Anyways, all this shit is disgusting from Nintendo and actually makes me feel ill.

 

[My Blue Heaven]

Nintendo should work with the Smash community if for no other reason to put an end to its fucking victim complex.

 

[Kitty Paws]

From my admittedly removed vantage point, the "Smash Community" seems, I dunno, a little... toxic? I can't really fault Nintendo for not wanting to associate with them. I mean just this summer there was a bunch of news posts here about how some well-known competitive players were using their status within the community to abuse minors.

 

[Meatfist]

I mean I can see why Nintendo would distance themselves from a community that has had historical issues with sex pests

 

[Yoshimitsu126]

I imagine this is going to be even harder due to the abuse that happened in the smash and evo scene.

 

[Sams]

While I agree Nintendo is terrible at supporting the scene, the community has way too many bad actors. It sucks. I love watching these events and it seems Nintendo just doesn't want the fans to enjoy this type of content.

 

[jph139]

My guy feeling has always been a regional difference - like, Nintendo of America interested in formalizing a relationship, the main branch in Japan being against it. What few olive branches do go out always seem to be from NoA run events. Does the scene in Japan get anything equivalent?

Ultimately Nintendo doesn't have interest in anything they can't 100% control. Frankly I'm surprised they allow, like, streamers and Youtubers to monetize their games (acknowledging all of the weird hoops you need to jump through in order to do so). It sucks if you're passionate about it, but at some point you need to accept that Nintendo is more conservative than 90% of gaming companies, and they're not changing any time soon.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Read the whole thing in 2 minutes eh?

Or they're responsible for not interveining and controlling the scene. It is much more difficult for a grass roots community to police abhorrent behaviors whereas an overseeing corporation would have a much easier time.

Anyways, all this shit is disgusting from Nintendo and actually makes me feel ill.

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Not really, almost none of the really bad shit is happening at the venues themselves, they're happening off site with people who met at the tournament and then met up in places like hotels or homes outside of the actual event, so while they're very much tied to the community and the events, they aren't really something that any organizer could stop. At best maybe you could argue they'd be able to make a more comprehensive rules on banning offenders, but this ignores the problem that these types of issues are horribly underreported and usually only come to light years later

 

[typhy]

everyones just on time to not read anything adjacent to what this is about at all and make horrible sweeping accusations about a community who took an active stance in excising abusers (people who exist in every community)

 

[Roliq]

Ultimately Nintendo doesn't have interest in anything they can't 100% control. Frankly I'm surprised they allow, like, streamers and Youtubers to monetize their games (acknowledging all of the weird hoops you need to jump through in order to do so).

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They tried something like that think it was the Nintendo Partner Program (don't remember the name well) yet it was hated by everyone so they stopped it and let youtubers do their thing

 

[Nairume]

I feel like saying this person is an insider is incredibly misleading with regards to who they are and the information they ate presenting.

ESL - ESL Made an attempt to work with Nintendo to run its own circuit/league, but Nintendo was largely unresponsive. They tried making meaningful contact with the company, prepared decks to sell the idea, but it couldn't go anywhere as Nintendo would not respond. I think it's interesting to note that Nintendo was willing to have Splatoon on ESL. To me, this shows that Nintendo will support scenes that don't thrive on their own, like Splatoon and ARMS, but they won't touch Smash because they can hang back and reap the benefits that we create as a grassroots community, essentially letting us do all the work, while doing nothing to help us get bigger.

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Reading this in the context of the reality of smash vs the reality of Splatoon and Arms, it's pretty obvious why Nintendo is supportive of working with outsider groups on esports with properties they fully own versus one with stuff they don't.

 

[Dekuman]

Given how the smash community is riddled with abuse and scandal, i'm fine with Nintendo not sanctioning anything they don't directly control.

I wonder if this insider is from one of those esports promoters negatively impacted by Nintendo's disinterest in supporting them.

 

[AgeEighty]

Read the whole thing in 2 minutes eh?

Or they're responsible for not interveining and controlling the scene. It is much more difficult for a grass roots community to police abhorrent behaviors whereas an overseeing corporation would have a much easier time.

Anyways, all this shit is disgusting from Nintendo and actually makes me feel ill.

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I read it before it was linked here, and it doesn't change anything about what I said.

Nintendo hasn't always done this. For awhile, they were flirting with active engagement with the Smash community, hosting their own tournaments, sponsoring EVO, and things like that. But they got burned badly by the PR nightmare the Smash community ended up being. Maybe when the community starts showing it can mature, Nintendo will come back to the table.

 

[Adulfzen]

Honestly I wonder if Nintendo would be more on board with the idea of a league like this if they specifically limited it to the newest game only and completely cut out Melee (and any other older game in the franchise). I noticed that all of the proposed leagues included a Melee section and I do wonder if in Nintendo's eyes promoting the Melee scene distracts from the previous games (especially given what was said about the twitch league in this twitlonger)

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If that was the case I feel like Nintendo would just say it during those behind the scenes discussions and just go from there.

I doubt any organizations would mind dropping Melee if it meant getting Nintendo full approval, Ultimate has a huge scene by itself and would bring plenty of participants to any event.

Personally I wonder if Nintendo unwillingness involve themselves with esports with Smash specifically comes from the amount of characters belonging to third party publishers and not wanting to deal with the legal ramifications of making "legit" tournaments with money on the line.

Also the recent cases of abuse and grooming will make it even more unlikely for Nintendo to associate with the pro scene.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I feel like saying this person is an insider is incredibly misleading with regards to who they are and the information they ate presenting.


Reading this in the context of the reality of smash vs the reality of Splatoon and Arms, it's pretty obvious why Nintendo is supportive of working with outsider groups on esports with properties they fully own versus one with stuff they don't.

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I mean yeah it's always been obvious. For Nintendo, the costs of being too closely associated with the smash community aren't worth whatever growth they think highlighting that community might provide, especially considering the community is huge without them having to lift a finger

 

[Pancracio17]

I read it before it was linked here, and it doesn't change anything about what I said.

Nintendo hasn't always done this. For awhile, they were flirting with active engagement with the Smash community, hosting their own tournaments, sponsoring EVO, and things like that. But they got burned badly by the PR nightmare the Smash community ended up being. Maybe when the community starts showing it can mature, Nintendo will come back to the table.

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It wont mature. Its grassroots. Nintendo has to get involved, make it professional, and then itll be mature.

 

[sanstesy]

It's, for sure, a shame. Ultimate could have been a T1/T2 esport but it seems like they just have no interest in doing it.

 

[Arzak]

Not really, almost none of the really bad shit is happening at the venues themselves, they're happening off site with people who met at the tournament and then met up in places like hotels or homes outside of the actual event, so while they're very much tied to the community and the events, they aren't really something that any organizer could stop. At best maybe you could argue they'd be able to make a more comprehensive rules on banning offenders, but this ignores the problem that these types of issues are horribly underreported and usually only come to light years later

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They could completely shape the culture of the scene, many of the abuses happened at parties happening post tournament it's easy to see how Nintendo could create an environment where that kind of thing is not encouraged or maybe even punished.

The point is that they're in the best position to help establish a professional safe environment and they haven't. People are going to play their games competitively wether they like it or not. Obviously it's never completely avoidable but there's always going to be some bad eggs in a basket.

 

[typhy]

everyones just on time to not read anything adjacent to what this is about at all and make horrible sweeping accusations about a community who took an active stance in excising abusers (people who exist in every community)

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like seriously, what are the point of posts like that? signaling that if you out people that are toxic and abusive, your community will be looked down on as "the one with abusers" in perpetuity by people who dont give a shit about you otherwise because you actually made moves to publicize shitheads (as should be done)? really cool message to send

 

[ZeroX]

The whole thing reads like the Smash community has a huge victim complex.

Like Nintendo not engaging with the community is completely understandable, just look at the last six months. As far as sending C&Ds over using emulators, I don't love that abuse of power and it's a shame nobody is really in a position to fight that.

 

[Deleted member 10629]

Nintendo, being Nintendo, wants to control the way their products are used. They don't want Smash to be considered an eSports tournament fighter, which sucks for the community but them's the breaks.

I don't agree with them, btw.

 

[AgeEighty]

It wont mature. Its grassroots. Nintendo has to get involved, make it professional, and then itll be mature.

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That's a poor excuse. The community's behavior is on them; if they keep whining because Nintendo won't pre-sanction their abusive culture and refuse to grow up as a result, then this is how things will stay. Nintendo tried getting involved already and it didn't help.

 

[Seafoam Gaming]

Reading through that twitlonger, it definitely rings true to me that Nintendo in general wouldn't do circuits or big ESPN-style promotions for Smash tournaments, I heard similar myself. That's more or less, from what I assume, due to the fact that they just don't really care about letting other do that stuff or doing it themselves though? They prefer said events to be on their terms with control, and licensing it out to others isn't a thing they do willingly unless it's someone big like EVO... And after this year they'll absolutely never touch EVO again, and probably not touch a good portion of the smash community either. I do not blame them. Yes, I know the community has tried very hard and mostly succeeded in kicking out a lot of those creeps for good, but the fact it happened to begin with is likely enough for Nintendo to be super duper wary of such collaborations with that community in the future, since you don't easily recover your community from ordeals like that

But I do wish they'd give their competitive games some sort of spotlight. Smash doesn't need it, it'll always live, (Their ancient fossil of a game around the same age as Capcom Vs SNK 2 manages to still be popular despite no rerelease at all and insanely high resale prices, it'll never die no matter how much some hope it will) but man i'd be over the moon if Pokken got more than a halfassed league from TPCI, or if NES Remix's world champion mode to enter a E3 tourney wasn't a dumb best buy only event. But yeah, gonna side with some here and pretty much think the smash community is in a "poor me" state right now and don't seem to get why nintendo won't associate with them when it's absolutely obvious as to why especially now. I would like Melee HD to happen and think it would help the scene a bit, but moreso so I can enjoy the single player and get all the trophies for nostalgic fun rather than mastering complex mechanics to play with no items.

But yeah, stuff right now... is pretty iffy. People are still mad about the big house deal despite how there's literally no way that could have happened online in a legal manner since there's 0% chance that everyone would be able to burn their own ISO copies to enter the tourney, so nintendo taking action especially if it was someone they sponsored in the past was inevitable. They want to do things on their own terms and even remotely endorsing people to entered a paid tourney which would likely used copied disc files is a huge legal no-no. (and the reason why they don't seem to care about the free tournies going on, not from folk endorsed by them) I think the community definitely needs to spend time reflecting rather than spamming. Or at least, pushing the Ultimate community ahead, since that's the newest community that can use online and can still do some sort of online presence.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I wonder if some part of Nintendo also thinks that highlighting smash a competitive game too hard might make it seem less approachable to the casual audince. I don't think this is correct in any way mind you, but it seems like the type of attitude I could see Nintendo having

 

[Saturday]

It's a fascinating read and it points out that there's no active action being taken to suppress eSports efforts, but laid out plain their decisions (or.. lack of decision for the most part?) is damning to the scene nevertheless; with this said I don't agree with this Anon's belief that Nintendo is being big brained here and hamstringing efforts in quiet to continue reaping publicity.

 

[Pancracio17]

That's a poor excuse. The community's behavior is on them; if they keep whining because Nintendo won't pre-sanction their abusive culture and refuse to grow up as a result, then this is how things will stay. Nintendo tried getting involved already and it didn't help.

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I dont agree. The community being grassroots for so long promoted the kind of behavior that led to the scandals. The players didnt have to answer to anybody.

Besides I dont even think this is the reason Nintendo is doing this. They just dont want esports culture getting serious within their games I think. Other franchises would get the same treatment.

 

[Kcannon]

Ultimately Nintendo doesn't have interest in anything they can't 100% control.

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That more or less sums it up.

 

[dgamemaster]

To those that are going to make posts about the sexual harassment stuff, as far as I know, most of the spectators and players that carried the majority of community support were unaware of these situations happening until they became public. Then, they pushed them out and have moved past them since. Don't confuse the issue about the maturity and professionalism of the Smash community with the issue about Nintendo's support for Smash esports. They may have some interconnection, but it's not the primary issue at hand.

As for this post, honestly, I am shocked about how terrible Nintendo has handled support for Melee and Ultimate to a degree. They need to be at the very least more supportive of the grassroots efforts of Melee. They don't need to fully offer pot bonuses or provide set-ups, just give a small sponsorship and do not shut down community efforts to make their game more accessible.

 

[Brainfreeze]

The issues outlined here date back 10+ years (and extended over a time period where Nintendo was actively using major community members to help sell their products), but sure, Nintendo knew there were major instances of sexual abuse and this is retroactively completely justified because of some accusations that came out 4 months ago.

On another note, do any of those same members shitting on the Smash scene remember how ResetEra started? Just curious if I'm allowed to call this forum a shithole for the same reason.



The accusations that came to light in July were serious, and they were taken seriously. The scene is healing and, despite being completely decentralized, is laying the ground work for a safer community as best as they can. As I mentioned last time this was brought up - many of the high profile victims that came forward in July are still a part of the community and are also tweeting about feeling hurt by Nintendo's actions. Your pot shots here aren't helping them, they're just petty.

 

[Dyle]

Not at all surprising, this was all rumored but good to have it out there. The way the company both leeches off successful community efforts and shuts down those that don't help them is incredibly frustrating. Sure corporations aren't your friends but do they have to make themselves your enemy?

I feel like saying this person is an insider is incredibly misleading with regards to who they are and the information they ate presenting.

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How else would you describe the author? Someone with intimate, previously undisclosed knowledge of the business of organizing tournaments and building partnerships with multiple organizations seems to fit that term

My guy feeling has always been a regional difference - like, Nintendo of America interested in formalizing a relationship, the main branch in Japan being against it. What few olive branches do go out always seem to be from NoA run events. Does the scene in Japan get anything equivalent?

Ultimately Nintendo doesn't have interest in anything they can't 100% control. Frankly I'm surprised they allow, like, streamers and Youtubers to monetize their games (acknowledging all of the weird hoops you need to jump through in order to do so).

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The Japanese community gets nothing but it's also a much smaller, much less organized community, so they don't "need" the help. They don't have a history of clamping down on the Japanese scene though.

 

[Shirkelton]

Hasn't Nintendo and Sakurai's explicitly stated policy pretty much always been 'this isn't ours and we don't really want it' towards the competitive Smash scene? Coupled with the fact that it's a fairly ugly beast and even long before the recent slew of sexual assaults and predatory behaviour has had longstanding public relations issues, it's not really surprising they would be hostile towards it.

 

[AgeEighty]

I dont agree. The community being grassroots for so long promoted the kind of behavior that led to the scandals. The players didnt have to answer to anybody.

Besides I dont even think this is the reason Nintendo is doing this. They just dont want esports culture getting serious within their games I think. Other franchises would get the same treatment.

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The community is grassroots, but the correction to their behavior can't be? Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. If the community can create itself, it can regulate itself.

I don't think the abusive community is the entire reason they're doing what they are, but I do think it's a major piece of it.

 

[Pancracio17]

The community is grassroots, but the correction to their behavior can't be? Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. If the community can create itself, it can regulate itself.

I don't think the abusive community is the entire reason they're doing what they are, but I do think it's a major piece of it.

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Sure it can regulate itself, but that happening to grassroots communites takes literal ages, and part of the process includes scandals (and the community fixing itself afterwards) that honestly couldve been avoided.

 

[Firestorm]

My guy feeling has always been a regional difference - like, Nintendo of America interested in formalizing a relationship, the main branch in Japan being against it. What few olive branches do go out always seem to be from NoA run events. Does the scene in Japan get anything equivalent?

Ultimately Nintendo doesn't have interest in anything they can't 100% control. Frankly I'm surprised they allow, like, streamers and Youtubers to monetize their games (acknowledging all of the weird hoops you need to jump through in order to do so). It sucks if you're passionate about it, but at some point you need to accept that Nintendo is more conservative than 90% of gaming companies, and they're not changing any time soon.

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Your gut feeling is pretty accurate I think. This mostly looks like initiatives that NoA tried to get off the ground but couldn't get full agreement from NCL which would be required for anything at this scale. That's the timeline I'd expect before most companies give up on trying to work with them or need to move on.

 

[Arzak]

I read it before it was linked here, and it doesn't change anything about what I said.

Nintendo hasn't always done this. For awhile, they were flirting with active engagement with the Smash community, hosting their own tournaments, sponsoring EVO, and things like that. But they got burned badly by the PR nightmare the Smash community ended up being. Maybe when the community starts showing it can mature, Nintendo will come back to the table.

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Clearly you didn't read it, fuck off.

 

[RealDealRusty]

I think Nintendo should at the very least stop with the C&Ds, but genuinely asking here is there another company in a similar situation as Nintendo with melee that is allowing it? Just curious since it seems like a weird scenario for a company to be in and interested in how others handle it.

 

[typhy]

imagine being someone brave enough to out an abuser and trying to make their scene better and then logging into resetera dot com and seeing "theyre just full of sex pests and abusers lol fuck them" months later from people who have no fucking clue what the scene is like at all. absolutely mind-boggling that people who make shitty drive-by snipes like that pretend to care about issues like this seriously or put any thought into caring about the actual people affected by the said abuse. disgusting and shameful.

 

[nanskee]

Read some of it and it's really no surprise to me, I remember hearing about e-league, ESL and red bull events for smash but nothing came about. Nintendo simply wants nothing to do with the smash community, which is fine, but, actively sabotaging third party investments and grassroots growth is pretty messed up

 

[Chaosblade]

The whole thing reads like the Smash community has a huge victim complex.

Like Nintendo not engaging with the community is completely understandable, just look at the last six months. As far as sending C&Ds over using emulators, I don't love that abuse of power and it's a shame nobody is really in a position to fight that.

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Then they can just, you know, not engage and let the community and other companies that want to support it continue on without them. The problem is that Nintendo actively holds the community and scene back. Smash could be significantly bigger as an esport if Nintendo never once engaged a TO or sponsor.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

They don't have any interest in Smash being an esport. That's really the full extent of it. The community being dumpster fire doesn't help but they have avoided this far far before any of this was common knowledge. They don't want anything thriving unless it is by their own construction.

 

[Firestorm]

Read the whole thing in 2 minutes eh?

Or they're responsible for not interveining and controlling the scene. It is much more difficult for a grass roots community to police abhorrent behaviors whereas an overseeing corporation would have a much easier time.

Anyways, all this shit is disgusting from Nintendo and actually makes me feel ill.

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It wont mature. Its grassroots. Nintendo has to get involved, make it professional, and then itll be mature.

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They could completely shape the culture of the scene, many of the abuses happened at parties happening post tournament it's easy to see how Nintendo could create an environment where that kind of thing is not encouraged or maybe even punished.

The point is that they're in the best position to help establish a professional safe environment and they haven't. People are going to play their games competitively wether they like it or not. Obviously it's never completely avoidable but there's always going to be some bad eggs in a basket.

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I dont agree. The community being grassroots for so long promoted the kind of behavior that led to the scandals. The players didnt have to answer to anybody.

Besides I dont even think this is the reason Nintendo is doing this. They just dont want esports culture getting serious within their games I think. Other franchises would get the same treatment.

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These are incredibly poor understandings of how competitive communities operate. Y'all talking out of your asses.

 

[KillstealWolf]

Watching Max's Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3 Twitch Rivals tournament at the moment and comparing it to Nintedo's handling of Smash is just... yeah.

 

[AgeEighty]

Clearly you didn't read it, fuck off.

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You're doing wonders for proving my point for me; thank you.

 

[DecoReturns]

Some of this is actually old news. People have talked about certain deals with companies never progression pass talks or attempted talks.

can't remember how long ago but I remember reading all this. Or perhaps it was a video. Wish I could link it

 

[TimeFire]

Fuck Nintendo. The way they killed PM by giving the TO's hope they'd help the scene was so insidious.