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Keasar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,724
Umeå, Sweden



A valuable video teaching the dangers of being a "centrist" or "moderate" only serves to help the right wing politics of any country, this video focusing on America specifically.

It is quite known that centrists are not interested in true progression, in justice for the people who have been oppressed and for the rights of the masses of our world. They are interested only in one thing only and that is "order", whether that order be negative or not doesn't matter. Upset the order because of injustice the order invokes upon a group of people and somehow you are the problem.

Martin Luther King knew this and he fucking called them out on it.
MLK-White-Silence-1024x640.jpg
 

Yesterzine

Member
Jan 5, 2022
8,049
Yep, I said this in the BBC thread when someone in 2022 actually used the "If both 'sides' are angry about something then they must be correct" argument. They didn't like it.
 

Joris-truly

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
845
Netherlands
Isn't this the guy who roleplays as a socialist critiquing capitalism, while also roleplaying as a '1%' lib capitalist with his high class car channel?




i r o n i c
 

Beer Monkey

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,308
Is this one of those people who says it's OK to sit out elections or vote third party to teach the Dems a lesson?
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Is this one of those people who says it's OK to sit out elections or vote third party to teach the Dems a lesson?
Liberals should stand for stuff, yes.

Political alignment should be about more than slowing the worsening of society. Conservatives got this down pat; they make society better to their ideals, it's just that their ideals are in making life worse for everyone but them while lining their own pockets, often from their own voter base.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
When I think of someone who is a moderate they are either quite comfortable with the way the status quo is right now, maybe they would be in favor of some small tinkering around the edges but nothing too drastic. They are generally comfortable in their life or they may just not be very invested in politics or have much of an ideological grounding. Of course, in America right wing neoliberalism is firmly in the driver's seat so to be a moderate is to be right wing here and I agree that serve to uphold a right wing status quo.
 

Deleted member 48201

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 29, 2018
1,469
He's not improving society. He's a tankie grifter defending the Cuban government and the CCP. Defending authoritarian regimes isn't improving society.
He made video about anti-Asian racism with Bay Area 415 an Uyghur genocide denier, where he runs defense for the CCP. Claiming to care about Asians while running defense for a racist regime that's oppressing and committing genocide against Asians is disgusting and hypocrite. It shows that he doesn't really care about anti-Asian racism.

Bay Area415 comments.

He also has a podcast with another Uyghur genocide denier Hakim.
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2srstzpexe961.jpg


Not to mention that he doesn't even know what he's talking about. He calls Vietnam and China socialist countries. The guy has zero credibility.
 
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Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
Riding around in fancy sports cars sponsored and engaged with corporate infrastructure whilst complaining about said system, isn't the same as a lower/middle-class person forced/stuck to work within it's system wanting to see change in equality. This is some HasanAbi kindergarten level comeback my dude. ;)

When is the last time he made a video about fancy sports cars?
 

toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,207
I don't usually watch ST videos. I was bored enough on my lunch break to give it a watch though.
I shouldn't have bothered. 6 minutes in and I'm already getting brain worms from this idiot.

Think about classic centrist statements like "we need a mix of socialism and capitalism,"
an idea that makes absolutely zero sense when you know the two ideologies and that their
base disagreement about the ownership of the means of production makes them fundamentally
incompatible.
Like, fucking hell, does this guy even know how Nordic countries do things? Hell, even the UK has a mixed social and capitalist model (as much as recent Tories have tried to pick it apart).
Tricky balancing act? Sure. "Makes zero sense?" LOL, fuck off dude.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,865
Metro Detroit
Riding around in fancy sports cars sponsored and engaged with corporate infrastructure whilst complaining about said system, isn't the same as a lower/middle-class person forced/stuck to work within it's system wanting to see change in equality. This is some HasanAbi kindergarten level comeback my dude. ;)
It's clear that ST has significantly radicalized since that time. I honestly have no idea if he still does videos on fancy sports cars, it's not an output of his I have ever noticed unless it is used to undermine the more recent anti-capitalistic videos he's made...
And where do you draw a line as to what someone who is critical of capitalism is allowed to consume within the confines of the system we are straddled with.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,911
I don't usually watch ST videos. I was bored enough on my lunch break to give it a watch though.
I shouldn't have bothered. 6 minutes in and I'm already getting brain worms from this idiot.


Like, fucking hell, does this guy even know how Nordic countries do things? Hell, even the UK has a mixed social and capitalist model (as much as recent Tories have tried to pick it apart).
Tricky balancing act? Sure. "Makes zero sense?" LOL, fuck off dude.

The two ideologies do fundamentally disagree. He's not wrong in that quote.

Having social programs or a welfare state doesn't make something a mix of socialism and capitalism.
 

PunchyMalone

Member
May 1, 2018
2,248
It's clear that ST has significantly radicalized since that time. I honestly have no idea if he still does videos on fancy sports cars, it's not an output of his I have ever noticed unless it is used to undermine the more recent anti-capitalistic videos he's made...
And where do you draw a line as to what someone who is critical of capitalism is allowed to consume within the confines of the system we are straddled with.

Its an age old tactic. Can't survive, work or even enjoy things if you're against the current system. You need to embody the ideology 100% otherwise you're a grifter.

And if you do live that life, good luck making any progress in the current system.
 

rognas

Member
Feb 23, 2021
203
I don't usually watch ST videos. I was bored enough on my lunch break to give it a watch though.
I shouldn't have bothered. 6 minutes in and I'm already getting brain worms from this idiot.


Like, fucking hell, does this guy even know how Nordic countries do things? Hell, even the UK has a mixed social and capitalist model (as much as recent Tories have tried to pick it apart).
Tricky balancing act? Sure. "Makes zero sense?" LOL, fuck off dude.

No offence but apparently you have no clue what socialism and capitalism are. They are fundamentally different economic systems. Nordic countries don't have a "mix" of capitalism and socialism. Their economic system is capitalism with Keynesian (aka socialdemocratic) management.
 

toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,207
While its fresh in my mind, I figured I might as well get the particular ST quote that turned me off him completely. I've mentioned it before in another Keasar thread (they seem to post quite a few ST videos). Its an interview with Guardian writer Owen Jones. Owen presses him on the question of China and its treatment of the Uyghur Muslims. It is possibly the softest low-ball opportunity for him to condemn the CCP's treatment of them. He comes back with this......
yeah i think it's it's a tough uh it's a tough discussion um because I mean everything is an ongoing process and what we see in the US is rapidly progressing in a negative direction, and what we see in china arguably is going in a more positive direction.
I mean if to take the the treatment of muslims for example, between the two nations, between the us and China, there is you know highly questionable re-education initiatives (referring to China)...... where there's occupation and bombing and murder for 20 years (referring to the US). So one of those is worse clearly like the US treatment of muslims is dramatically worse that's not to say the other is good but....yeah i don't know what the answer is there.
I think we need to be cognizant of a country's progress in in whichever direction it's going and i am critically supportive of China.
I think some of their initiatives are very good, um poverty alleviation um, public transportation, um sustainable cities that they're building. now I have my problems with them but without the existence of a superpower that fits all our criteria here in the west, if China is willing to support democratic socialist nations, or budding socialist movements, and not be coercive of them or meddle in their affairs like the united states does, I think that is a more positive approach.
Apologies for the shit formatting. I just discovered YouTube's Transcript function, but anyway, yea, "Highly questionable re-education initiatives" is the most damning thing he is prepared to say about it? Once again, fuck off dude.

Link to video btw. 21:50 is roughly when it starts.
www.youtube.com

Second Thought on US imperialism, capitalism and the rise of the US left

Second Thought is an extremely popular leftist US YouTuber who brings radical politics to younger Americans and beyonds. We talk about US imperialism in the ...
 

Joris-truly

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
845
Netherlands
It's clear that ST has significantly radicalized since that time. I honestly have no idea if he still does videos on fancy sports cars, it's not an output of his I have ever noticed unless it is used to undermine the more recent anti-capitalistic videos he's made...
And where do you draw a line as to what someone who is critical of capitalism is allowed to consume within the confines of the system we are straddled with.
True, those can be vague. I'm critical of capitalism while being a victim and engaged with said system. At the same time, I can notice and appreciate the benefits of living in a capitalist society and try to work within it's borders while being appreciative of what I have. What i'm not doing is grifting on YouTube to score cheap radicalized lefty points, -Tankie conspiratorial propaganda even, without data backing up his claims- capitalising on the trend, while at the same time not even remotely living those same standards. His climate change video is extra hilarious in hindsight. Second Thought's rhetoric feels hallow and grifty as a result.

It's fine by the way for him to post these videos and for people to watch them, i'm personally just tired of these empty unconstructive grifting lefty ideologue's that sprung up recently.
 
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Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,911
Any examples? Changing enough to shift 80% of people from "bad" to "good"(enough to support your desired changes) sound like a feat that has not occurred often.

You don't need to change 80% of people to "good".Just enough to get things done.

If one thinks it's impossible to get change done then there's no point even discussing it.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,911
Let me rephrase changing enough of 80% opposed to change to accomplish anything sounds rare

It is because it's hard work. Not to mention, different ideas on how to get things done. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.

I also don't think 80% of people are necessarily opposed to change. They are often more opposed to certain methods and timelines of change.


The country is as right wing as it is because of targeted effort by the right to make people distrustful of government assistance, to atomize society, to push individualism, dismantle unions, not to mention the state has murdered a lot of the most prominent left wing leaders. Yet, how many people were actually against the financial support they received during the pandemic?

This.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
The country is as right wing as it is because of targeted effort by the right to make people distrustful of government assistance, to atomize society, to push individualism, dismantle unions, not to mention the state has murdered some of the most prominent left wing leaders. Yet, how many people were actually against the financial support they received during the pandemic?
 

Apollon

alt account
Banned
Jan 7, 2022
129
*User posts a video by one of the most concise and convincing leftist voices on Youtube*

*The entire thread is now about questioning his left bona fides, instead of responding to the content*

This. This is why we never win. We're so suspicious of anyone and everyone who agrees with us that we alienate a massive portion of our potential allies. We cannot accept the help of anyone who is less than 100% in alignment with us on all issues at all times.

Meanwhile, the right is like: "You wanna make more money? Welcome aboard!"
 
OP
OP
Keasar

Keasar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,724
Umeå, Sweden
Oh great another thread where someone just drops a video and an MLK with no original thoughts of their own and fucks off
Some people have shit to do during the day, the time of which may vary depending on where in the world you are.

As for "lack of original thought", I posted my own thoughts right there. In the OP. I am sorry that they are not "original" enough for you.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
17,911
The way the online left talks about centrists / moderates hardens their views and turns them away though and the right sit there with open arms allowing people into the fold. until the left stops being so damn judgmental of the opinions the vast majority of people hold they will continue to repeatedly lose.

What do you recommend "the Left" should do?

I would argue that the Left has historically been pretty good at uniting different groups. The problem is that the government tends to harass, imprison, and kill Leftist leaders.
 
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Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,866
The way the online left talks about centrists / moderates hardens their views and turns them away though and the right sit there with open arms allowing people into the fold. until the left stops being so damn judgmental of the opinions the vast majority of people hold they will continue to repeatedly lose.

Funny enough, this is the exact line of centrist thinking that gets me so frustrated. Anything that upsets the comfort of the moderates is seen as too extreme. "I like what you say but..
It's too fast
Too much change at once
I don't agree with how you said it
It will only make the right more extreme"

At the end of the day, it's all just a further barrier to any real change.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,991
Houston
*User posts a video by one of the most concise and convincing leftist voices on Youtube*

*The entire thread is now about questioning his left bona fides, instead of responding to the content*

This. This is why we never win. We're so suspicious of anyone and everyone who agrees with us that we alienate a massive portion of our potential allies. We cannot accept the help of anyone who is less than 100% in alignment with us on all issues at all times.

Meanwhile, the right is like: "You wanna make more money? Welcome aboard!"
So much this.

Your not woke enough. You participate is society why should I listen to you. You said/did bad thing X time ago, your not allowed to change and be better.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,117
UK
I've come across centrists and been able to convince them of leftist causes or actions, but they have to come in good faith and not resort to defensiveness or tone policing.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,991
Houston
The way the online left talks about centrists / moderates hardens their views and turns them away though and the right sit there with open arms allowing people into the fold. until the left stops being so damn judgmental of the opinions the vast majority of people hold they will continue to repeatedly lose.
please, this is such horsehit.

right wing "blacks and jews and mexicans are taking your job and increasing crime"

left wing "thats pretty racist, you know"

centrists "why did you have to call them racist?"


fuck outta here with that nonsense. Centrists dont like the way "left people" talk because they dont like the message and want the status quo to stay the same.
 

Arjen

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,025
Centrist parties in a coaliton of multiple parties can help put progressive/ leftist issues on the agenda. I think it's a bit shortsighted to just say centrist=bad.
 

i_am_ben

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,012
If you can be excluded from the left for being too 'moderate' can you be excluded from the left for being to radical? Cos, let's be real, some on the left are utter wackos and they can also be accused of serving the right.
 

Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,866
If you can be excluded from the left for being too 'moderate' can you be excluded from the left for being to radical? Cos, let's be real, some on the left are utter wackos and they can also be accused of serving the right.

I don't think the takeaway should be to exclude moderates. It should be not to bend over backwards to appeal to them at the expense of an actual agenda.

But also, what do you think represents too extreme on the left?
 

Apollon

alt account
Banned
Jan 7, 2022
129
So much this.

Your not woke enough. You participate is society why should I listen to you. You said/did bad thing X time ago, your not allowed to change and be better.
It drives me insane.

Dudes like Hasan, who is literally bringing our message to (and popularizing our values amongst), a massive amount of young people regularly talk about how the most vicious and personal harrassment they receive online is not from the right, but from the left. A huge number of genuine leftists examine every word these folks say with a microscope, looking for anything to criticize them over. Praying for an opportunity to scold, because it's one of the only ways they can feel empowered.

Youtube/Twitch content creators are some of the only people who can become wealthy with zero exploitation of labor, purely by uploading their own content , but we're still ready to crucify them when they buy something nice for themselves or have a bad take 1 out of 100 times. Insanity.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
The way the online left talks about centrists / moderates hardens their views and turns them away though and the right sit there with open arms allowing people into the fold. until the left stops being so damn judgmental of the opinions the vast majority of people hold they will continue to repeatedly lose.

If moderate/centrism was so popular as you claim, economic populism wouldn't be as popular as it is, which is at odds with moderate/centrism, Democratic leaders like neoliberal moderate politics. It might be popular among the white managerial class, others who are among the petite bourgeoise whose interests broadly align with the ruling class but these are not most people. There is an aversion to some of these things based on labels because the state has spent decades propagandizing against them but people broadly approve economic support from the government when its detached from them, the challenge is winning against these propagandists.
 
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Pirateluigi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,866
I'm not saying that left leaning figures shouldn't advocate for positive changes. but there has to be some level of realization that we can only move as fast as what the majority of people in a country are accepting of. if you cant get the votes or manufacture the consent to do something from the public then its not really possible because the opposition will take advantage of that and it gets reversed next cycle. you can find it frustrating. but its the reality we live in, you can't really ignore that.

Desegregation was wildly unpopular with moderates. In 1968, MLK had a public disapproval rating of 75%. Public support for legalized gay marriage in 1997 was 27%.

The thing with moderate ideology is a general aversion to change. But they tend to support those changes AFTER they happen. Historically, the best way to appeal to moderates is to simply make those progressive changes and they'll usually get on board afterward.
 

captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,991
Houston
I'm not saying that left leaning figures shouldn't advocate for positive changes. but there has to be some level of realization that we can only move as fast as what the majority of people in a country are accepting of. if you cant get the votes or manufacture the consent to do something from the public then its not really possible because the opposition will take advantage of that and it gets reversed next cycle. you can find it frustrating. but its the reality we live in, you can't really ignore that.



nah you get the fuck out of there with your nonsense you've just made some strawman argument to dismiss what im saying. the example you cite here isn't what I'm defending, that is plainly unacceptable. "Centrists" dont like the way "left people" talk because they do shit like what you've just done, make up some bullshit no one said to pin that individual as bad and can therefore be dismissed.
bullshit.

that comic posted above of "compromise" is exactly what im talking about. and your ignoring.

edit:
here, you're exactly the person MLK Jr as talking about.


"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says, "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action";"
 
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EntelechyFuff

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Nov 19, 2019
10,139
The way the online left talks about centrists / moderates hardens their views and turns them away though and the right sit there with open arms allowing people into the fold. until the left stops being so damn judgmental of the opinions the vast majority of people hold they will continue to repeatedly lose.
I don't agree that it hardens the views of moderates, but I do agree with your earlier posts that leftists tend to circle up and declare their intention to not genuinely engage with an increasingly larger group at their own peril.

Like, we're never gonna achieve leftist goals if we declare three-quarters of society persona non grata and not worth talking to. Part of making big changes is engaging with unsavory (or "unsavory") people.
 

Deleted member 48201

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 29, 2018
1,469
*User posts a video by one of the most concise and convincing leftist voices on Youtube*

*The entire thread is now about questioning his left bona fides, instead of responding to the content*

This. This is why we never win. We're so suspicious of anyone and everyone who agrees with us that we alienate a massive portion of our potential allies. We cannot accept the help of anyone who is less than 100% in alignment with us on all issues at all times.

Meanwhile, the right is like: "You wanna make more money? Welcome aboard!"
There's a difference between working with people that do not have the completely same views or ideas as you and repeatedly working with people that made it clear that they are fine with authoritarianism, genocide and slavery.
You are just going to ignore all that just because some governments call themselves socialist when in reality they are just state led capitalist authoritarian regimes?
You lose all credibility when you do. Nobody is forcing him to work with these people to create videos or podcasts.
 
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Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Desegregation was wildly unpopular with moderates. In 1968, MLK had a public disapproval rating of 75%. Public support for legalized gay marriage in 1997 was 27%.

The thing with moderate ideology is a general aversion to change. But they tend to support those changes AFTER they happen. Historically, the best way to appeal to moderates is to simply make those progressive changes and they'll usually get on board afterward.
Yeah that.

Marriage equality is moderate now, because it exists and the moderate is fine with it.

Because what defines a moderate is compliance with the status quo.