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How is it difficult for Sony to have full BC with PS1 & PS2 games, yet Microsoft can have BC with OG Xbox & Xbox 360 games?
- Thread starter SpaceCrystal
- Start date
LOL It seems like you just made this up to fit your narrative. It seems like your very wrong. Have you even read anything about Xbox One BC for you to even feel comfortable saying this? Obviously not.
That and audio, which I seem to recall they said is embedded in the CPU? Which would mean that yes, they'd have to have planned it from the beginning.
MS felt it would be a feature that would help differentiate their product, Sony doesn't. Maybe that will change, but as of now its less a matter of technical ability (specifically for PS1/2) and more a case that Sony probably doesn't see it as something that will help their position.
They're not ports. There is no work being done to the actual code of the games themselves which is why you can system link an OG Xbox to an Xbox One and play Halo CE, Crimson Skies, etc.
They did. If I recall, rather than being able to focus on BC before the system launched they had to focus on shifting the system and it's os to not be always online instead of what they originally intended.
Yes. But no third parties really want to take advantage of it. Or do the work to re-license everything over just doing a remaster.
Can you play those PS2 games by inserting the original discs into the PS4?
Tbf they stopped adding games recently to ensure every game works on Series X. So they're testing 1000s of games to make sure they work seamlessly.
A lot of work has been previously done on the PPC architecture used in the 360.
en.wikipedia.org
Nothing slightly comparable for the CELL. For the PS1/PS2 that could be bruteforced, it's for the same reason than Microsoft that the emulator isn't freely accessible to the end-user, but aggravated by a puny selection of games and zero physical support.
QuickTransit - Wikipedia
Nothing slightly comparable for the CELL. For the PS1/PS2 that could be bruteforced, it's for the same reason than Microsoft that the emulator isn't freely accessible to the end-user, but aggravated by a puny selection of games and zero physical support.
Its not easy. MS put a lot of money, time, and effort into it. Sony probably doesn't want to put that effort in and they don't have to because they are in the lead. Would love it if they firgured out a way to emulate ps3 games on the ps4 but that is probably more money than its worth to them.
No but they added trophy support which is more important to me.
I still can't wrap my head around why Sony went through the trouble of making a PS2 emulator for PS4, and didn't just let us plop disks in and use them. I get that they want to sell PS2 games on PSN (I bought many of them), but for fucks sake, just let us play disks we already own.
The PS2 situation is just particularly frustrating for me, because I have a lot of PS2 games I really would like to play, and I absolutely can't stand using PCSX2. I'm so sick and tired of having to beg for games to get remastered so I can buy them, instead of just having the ability to either use disks I already own, or just buying a PS2 game and playing it on my PS4. I don't want to buy a actual PS2 nor do I want to deal with PCSX2's bullshit.
The PS2 situation is just particularly frustrating for me, because I have a lot of PS2 games I really would like to play, and I absolutely can't stand using PCSX2. I'm so sick and tired of having to beg for games to get remastered so I can buy them, instead of just having the ability to either use disks I already own, or just buying a PS2 game and playing it on my PS4. I don't want to buy a actual PS2 nor do I want to deal with PCSX2's bullshit.
PS3 and XBOX360 were both power PC structure (correct me if I'm wrong). PS4 and XBOX ONE share similar hardware. if ONE can play 360 games then PS4 can play PS3 games, if they want to do it.
idk about them both being power PC structure but even if that were the case, I don't think it changes the fact that the Cell processor was developer's biggest nightmare while the 360 was much easier to work with in comparison. Emulating the PS3's cell architecture isn't exactly easy, despite a PS3 emulator finally getting off the ground on PC.
The only way Sony could have probably pulled it off at the time, is if they literally put the Cell processor inside the PS4, much like how the PS2's emotion engine was put in the early PS3 units to guarantee PS2 backwards compatibility. This would have probably made the PS4 more expensive at the time, and could have resulted in them missing their 399 target price.
Edit: I will say the key difference when it comes to PS5 and PS4 and PS3 backwards compatibility is that the PS5 probably has the raw power to actually handle PS3 emulation without the need to have any actual PS3 hardware inside the unit itself. So if Sony wanted to do it now I'd certainly be inclined to believe that the PS5 hardware could handle it. Especially with how much great progress has been made on the PC side.
Microsoft uses a shared emulator for all their games. The only ones with any specific hacks are the 1X upgraded 4K versions, and even then they're slight.
Technically Microsoft could probably ships the recompiler they use on the series X so you don't actually have to download anything either, but who knows how long that would take to run before the game was ready to go.
And then there are the legal issues where your technically not allowed to modify code according to most EULA's which the recompiler is doing, so even if they could, they still have to ask individual companies for permission to do so :'(. Although perhaps the series X is fast enough for realtime PPC emulation, which would technically forgo that restriction.
MS can't provide full BC for either of their past consoles, unfortunately, and what's there was not done "easily" at all.
There are a lot of licencing issues regarding streaming/capturing, hosting digital versions of the game, altering existing code, etc.
A lot of publishers straight up don't exist anymore, and the rights for some games are mixed up between multiple parties, so negotiating this might be off the table in a lot of cases. It gets worse the older the game is.
The solution - assuming there's no wording that the game has to run on the original hardware only (like PS1 to PS2?) - would be to run the game straight off the disc with no alterations, streaming blocked, completely as it would be if you had a PS1 connected.
There are a lot of licencing issues regarding streaming/capturing, hosting digital versions of the game, altering existing code, etc.
A lot of publishers straight up don't exist anymore, and the rights for some games are mixed up between multiple parties, so negotiating this might be off the table in a lot of cases. It gets worse the older the game is.
The solution - assuming there's no wording that the game has to run on the original hardware only (like PS1 to PS2?) - would be to run the game straight off the disc with no alterations, streaming blocked, completely as it would be if you had a PS1 connected.
One nice thing Microsoft did with the Xbox one was define a virtual machine that all software runs within. So in the future, they only have to be compatible with that virtualized environment to get full binary compatibility. In other words, Microsoft kind of solved this going forward, and if it runs on the Xbox One it should rub on all future hardware.
That's a rather tough one to argue because this gen *no* game runs off a disc.
OP
OP
Pretty sure Microsoft was planning BC before the Xbox One launched. I read somewhere that there is some bit of hardware built into Xbox One for some of the things needed for 360 emulation. I think Phil or someone said it was delayed because of the whole launch debacle and pulling engineers away from the project.
If hobbyists can build rpcs3, then Sony can do it, too, from a technical point of view. Of course the PS4 would not have the power to emulate the PS4 at full speed, though.A lot of work has been previously done on the PPC architecture used in the 360.
QuickTransit - Wikipedia
Nothing slightly comparable for the CELL. For the PS1/PS2 that could be bruteforced, it's for the same reason than Microsoft that the emulator isn't freely accessible to the end-user, but aggravated by a puny selection of games and zero physical support.
Sony could have technically done something for sur, but the difference is quit large between a (remarkable) hobbyist software and a consumer-grade one. It wasn't to give them excuses but to separate the technical and the "distribution" problem, something that MS solved well.
Oh, for sure, Dolphin, one of the most mature emulators out there, still receives updates and fixes games. What I wanted to say is that while ppc emulation is quite common in the emulator scene, hobbyists even found a way to emulate Cell. And let's be honest: no one besides hobbyists and Sony will ever do anything in terms of emulation for SPUs because they are easy too niche nowadays (and even were when released).
I think you are overestimating how many OG Xbox games are BC
Also isn't there weird compatibility issues with PS2 emulation on PC? Where it isn't 100% perfect?
Also isn't there weird compatibility issues with PS2 emulation on PC? Where it isn't 100% perfect?
PS5 is powerful enough to have PS3 back-compat, OP. The Zen 2 CPU is exceptionally well at PS3 emulation judging from its performance in the RPCS3 (PS3) emulator on PC. If Sony wants they can provide emulation from PSX to PS4. It remains to be seen whether they choose to do that.
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Ah found it, here is the article with a lot of the tech details on how the 360 BC stuff works.
www.eurogamer.net
Xbox One backwards compatibility: how does it actually work?
One of the most memorable of E3 reveals also happens to be one of the greatest technological achievements of the curren…
www.eurogamer.net
This applies to pcsx2 which is done by hobbyists who don't have access to the full hardware documentation. Sony should be able to do it but instead they decided that PS2 games should get trophies as an additional argument for further monetization.
It wasn't just for BC (it was the "SPU2" audio processor), but yeah, they incorporated the original PS1 CPU into the PS2's design.
Microsoft built some necessary things into the Xbox One to make it possible, so it certainly seems like they were planning to do it either way.
I have a huge backlog and sometimes do itch to play old PS2 and 3 games. How hard is it seriously to make it fully BC?? At least Ps1,2 and 4. I know PS3 are hard to emulate but no excuse for the rest when MS will most likely market that next gen as a plus to own Xbox Series X.
I think the reality is most people just don't play old ps1/2/3 games and they must have looked at it that way in terms of a financial move. MS have the resource and manpower and obviously had to try harder to win the appeal of the hardcore crowd back after xb1
That Jim Ryan quotation is like the Toy Story quotation in that it gets misquoted more than it gets correctly quoted.
My understanding is they use different approaches and PS5 uses hardware BC whereas Microsoft uses a software emulator. I don't know why. Could be how the games work or the amount of investment. It is a really unique thing to see old games look better. I can't say I use it though.
We can judge them by their record. Hopefully PS5 changes the trend.
And that record only includes the PS4 right? I'm all for pushing BC, I think it's great, but acting like Sony at one point wasn't the best in class in this area isn't accurate. I wish they did a better job with the PS4 and I hope with the PS5 they support all the PS1/PS2/PS3/PS4/PSP/PSV purchases but it's disingenuous to do what you did with that quotation.
I don't get why people would want such older BC so badly, but Sony needs old-BC just from a marketing response.
They are losing valuable market mind-share come non BC, even though I doubt many people use it to warrant such a costly affair.
They are losing valuable market mind-share come non BC, even though I doubt many people use it to warrant such a costly affair.
Only a million times or so.
As others have already said, it's not quite as easy as it may seem. There is obviously a reason why it hasn't happened, but we don't know anything about it.
It wasn't easy for MS to get it done , it must have cost a lot but may be MS software skills came into play and even Sony didn't think it was possible.
Sony Surprised By Microsoft’s Announcement About Xbox One Backward Compatibility Support
At E3, Microsoft announced that Xbox One will be the only console to support backward compatibility natively for select Xbox 360 games, for free, and all with X
mspoweruser.com
I'm aware, but Sony has changed a lot. And I didn't even quote anyone.
It wasn't a "panic response" though, factually incorrect. Although not announced at the time, BC was originally planned to launch with XBO but priorities shifted on to Kinect and other nonsense as we know, and it got delayed. There is custom hardware in the XBO for 360 BC.
Also they haven't "wrapped up" BC support, the team shifted their focus on to next gen.