How important is logic, consistency, and lack of plot holes to you in media?

[Chairman Yang]

As I've grown older, I've started caring a lot more about media feeling "logical". In other words, with the plot carefully thought out to avoid as many holes as possible, with character motivations reasonably self-consistent (unless the inconsistency is the point), with the larger world around the story being properly developed and with as much verisimilitude as possible. I'll even be happy for the writers to sacrifice some short-term "cool" scenes in service of logic and worldbuilding consistency.

Game of Thrones really brought the importance of this home for me. From the excellent logic of the books and earlier seasons, to the trashfire of the last season in particular, the contrast really stood out to me.

What do you think? Do you have different expectations for movies vs. TV vs. books vs. games? Have your preferences changed over time?

 

[Mona]

not important at all if im engrossed in it

for example it seems alot of people couldn't get into A Quiet Place because they just kept having questions nagging at them, but i was fully onboard so the peripheral concerns just melted away

and then you have movies like Eraserhead that have their own type of nightmare logic, trying to use our reality as an exact comparison to make sense of that world is kind of missing the point, some pieces of art aren't meant to "make sense", they're meant to be felt and experienced instinctively

heres a quote from tarkovsky and accompanying video about it

"We can express our feelings regarding the world around us either by poetic or by descriptive means. I prefer to express myself metaphorically. Let me stress: metaphorically, not symbolically. A symbol contains within itself a definite meaning, certain intellectual formula, while metaphor is an image. An image possessing the same distinguishing features as the world it represents. An image — as opposed to a symbol — is indefinite in meaning. One cannot speak of the infinite world by applying tools that are definite and finite. We can analyse the formula that constitutes a symbol, while metaphor is a being-within-itself, it's a monomial. It falls apart at any attempt of touching it."
― Andrei Tarkovsky

 

[808s & Villainy]

Good fiction needs logic and consistency to seem believable and make sense

 

[capitalCORN]

As long as it's not gimmicky.

 

[Deleted member 13645]

If it's the type of gaps that the mind can fill in or there's a reasonable explanation for the logical mismatch i'm fine with that. When it becomes severe is when I struggle to immerse or mentally engage with the material. This is why I really like Sanderson's books, I find he's incredibly good at defining the laws and rules for his worlds and then abiding by those. Characters don't suddenly violate those laws to move the plot forward or to beat a baddie, they adhere to the rules of the world. On the other end is something like WoW where as much as I like the universe, I can't engage with the story of the game anymore. There's far too many plot holes and inconsistency for me to care. If you can't seem like you care about your story why should I?

 

[Odesu]

Good fiction needs logic and consistency to seem believable and make sense

Click to shrink...

Good fiction doesn't necessarily need to "make sense". Fiction can be entirely metaphorical in a way that only the author understands or it can be a visualisation of an emotional process that speak to the artist in some profound way.

None of David Lynch's projects would be any better if they just had more "logic and consistency".

 

[Royalan]

I wish there were an option between mildly and extremely. LOL.

For the most part, I don't care if the story is good. There are certain story types of avoid almost entirely, though, because plot-holes and logic loops are almost unavoidable. Time travel, for example.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Stealth Star Wars thread

 

[sphagnum]

Depends on what the story is aiming for.

 

[Link]

If it's something that relies on continuity, it's extremely important. Otherwise, not so much.

 

[Maxim726x]

Depends on what we're talking about.

If it's something that has built itself of consistency and character development (Game of Thrones), it matters quite a fucking bit.

If it's a show where people are screaming and changing their hair color to defeat opponents, then not at all.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Good logic will greatly enhance a piece of media, BUT bad logic will not detract.

 

[BDS]

One of the most fundamental storytelling maxims:

If the audience is enjoying your story, they'll forgive almost anything when it comes to plot inconsistencies or continuity errors.
If the audience isn't enjoying your story, they'll forgive nothing.

 

[Deleted member 6173]

If the characters are good I don't necessarily need flawless logic

 

[Brian McDoogle]

I don't think good movies or stories need to be solved. I think it's an active problem in online/nerd criticism where everything must be explained away. And I think people blame things on logic, consistency, and plot holes when sometimes it's just sloppy storytelling and execution that doesn't necessitate bad logic or plot holes. For example, I think the issues people are waiving away with Joker as "it's all in his head!" showcase a desire to explain the movie rather than engage with it on its terms and coming to grips with some problems in it, and I think some of the Season 8 stuff in Game of Thrones is again poorly executed but the "none of it makes sense" hyperbole doesn't contribute much to discussion. And then, of course, there's Star Wars "logic" which is usually an excuse to fight petty proxy-wars against other issues.

 

[808s & Villainy]

Good fiction doesn't necessarily need to "make sense". Fiction can be entirely metaphorical in a way that only the author understands or it can be a visualisation of an emotional process simply music and visuals that speak to the artist in some profound way.

None of David Lynch's projects would be any better if they just had more "logic and consistency".

Click to shrink...

Well I did say "to make sense". If that isn't the goal, then you can forgoe those things. And when I say logic, I meant internal logic, not necessarily real world logic. For instance I love the Harry Potter books/movies, but they're so inconsistent the world makes little logical sense, but that's ok because they're entertaining

 

[Deleted member 8257]

Depends on the movie. If it's brainless fun like Avengers, then not really. If it's something serious, then it's important.

More importantly, internal logic needs to be consistent.

 

[BlackGoku03]

Good fiction doesn't necessarily need to "make sense". Fiction can be entirely metaphorical in a way that only the author understands or it can be a visualisation of an emotional process simply music and visuals that speak to the artist in some profound way.

None of David Lynch's projects would be any better if they just had more "logic and consistency".

Click to shrink...

Damn. I was about to write this.

This is the answer, OP.

 

[saenima]

Depends on what it's going for. If you're making a rules based story, then you better have consistency, otherwise it all falls apart and i lose interest. If the plot is not as important to the piece as the characters or themes, then i don't really care.

 

[Addi]

I if the movie relies mostly on plot, sure it's important to some degree. I don't find that types of movies to be great in the first place though.

 

[SoH]

People who don't know a plot hole from their ass in their 800k+ viewed take down youtube "critical" video gets my goat more often than characters doing silly, irrational things.

 

[Deleted member 9035]

I believe it's common to find at least a small amount of inconsistency in most works of fiction, if you check thoroughly enough.

The question is then: do you disengage with the work because of said inconsistencies or are you more prone to notice them because you're already disengaged?

Chicken and egg sort of thing.

 

[Str0ngStyle]

To me, you can set up whatever you want as long as you stick to the internal logic you setup that you set up in the beginning. If you deviate from that, I have less of a tolerance for that.

 

[Addi]

People who don't know a plot hole from their ass in their 800k+ viewed take down youtube "critical" video gets my goat more often than characters doing silly, irrational things.

Click to shrink...

"Doens't matter what emotional turmoil that character is going through and what feeling the director wants us to experience, that type of gun can't have that many bullets. PLOT HOLE"

 

[Betty]

Oh it's pretty damn important to me.

Story can be as crazy as you want, but you have to have some logic and consistency or it just falls apart.

 

[wenis]

i dont care.

 

[Brinbe]

it's important, but as long as it's not terribly bad, i can overlook it. i do appreciate tightly written art though.

and really atrocious logic/motivation/action just completely kills story dead no matter what.

 

[BDS]

do you disengage with the work because of said inconsistencies or are you more prone to notice them because you're already disengaged?

Click to shrink...

It's the latter. People will often claim it's the former, but in reality it's usually something about the character or narrative arcs that has broken the person's suspension of disbelief, triggering the "bitch eating crackers" syndrome that we all end up being guilty of where a film we were previously predisposed to enjoy can suddenly do nothing right because we can no longer give it the benefit of the doubt.

The comparison I always use is it's like a relationship. Your partner will always have quirks and behaviors that annoy you, but in a healthy relationship you overlook them because the positive aspects are so much stronger than minor annoyances. But when the relationship goes downhill, suddenly everything they do annoys the shit out of you until the relationship eventually breaks irreparably.

 

[Edgar]

Plot driven films never seem to engage me as much as character driven ones/character studies. So as long as its lightly consisten with its own movie logic i am fine . I am more harsh on dialogue and people interactions and how characters themselves are consistent

 

[molnizzle]

Extremely. Without a logical plot, you only have superficial nonsense. What's the point?

 

[Deleted member 9035]

It's the latter. People will often claim it's the former, but in reality it's usually something about the character or narrative arcs that has broken the person's suspension of disbelief, triggering the "bitch eating crackers" syndrome that we all end up being guilty of where a film we were previously predisposed to enjoy can suddenly do nothing right because we can no longer give it the benefit of the doubt.

The comparison I always use is it's like a relationship. Your partner will always have quirks and behaviors that annoy you, but in a healthy relationship you overlook them because the positive aspects are so much stronger than minor annoyances. But when the relationship goes downhill, suddenly everything they do annoys the shit out of you until the relationship eventually breaks irreparably.

Click to shrink...

Certainly agree that the latter is far more common than most are willing to admit, but I think the former also happens. And in relationships too.

 

[Wilf Netherton]

Not at all. I usually prefer media that isn't plot heavy.

 

[kubev]

for example it seems alot of people couldn't get into A Quiet Place because they just kept having questions nagging at them, but i was fully onboard so the peripheral concerns just melted away

Click to shrink...

I immediately thought of A Quiet Place when I saw the thread title, as it was probably one of the worst offenders of this for me.

 

[TheCthultist]

In documentaries, very.
In regular entertainment, I care a whole lot less.

 

[JCHandsom]

not important at all if im engrossed in it

for example it seems alot of people couldn't get into A Quiet Place because they just kept having questions nagging at them, but i was fully onboard so the peripheral concerns just melted away

and then you have movies like Eraserhead that have their own type of nightmare logic, trying to use our reality as an exact comparison to make sense of that world is kind of missing the point, some pieces of art aren't meant to "make sense", they're meant to be felt and experienced instinctively

Click to shrink...

Good first post, it's something that can enhance a viewing experience, but a story can still be excellent even without it. I do think there can be context-dependent examples of logic issues that can become deal breakers (Lex Luthor's plan in BvS comes to mind) but by and large they are not as prevalent as issues with characterization, narrative, structure, theme, etc. and pretty much anytime there are egregious plot holes plaguing a film, those more substantial issues are there as well (see again BvS).

I think the trend towards pointing to "plot holes," be they real or imagined (so many so-called plot-holes are in fact just contrivance or convenience for the sake of serving something more important like pacing or tone) comes from the fact that it is more immediately accessible to lay-people; cause and effect are pretty easy concepts to grasp because they factor into every part of day-to-day life, whereas stuff like genre conventions, metaphor, etc. (not to mention medium specific stuff like film-making or game design) require more than a little specialization and teaching to grasp.

The fact that you can find plot holes in popular, critically acclaimed classics like Back to the Future and Jurassic Park is evidence that good movies, and good stories in general, are good not because they are totally logically sound, but because they succeed on an emotional and thematic level more than anything else.

 

[Enoch]

Very important if the content is average/good (from my perspective) .

If some aspects are truly great and fun then generally I don't care.

 

[Cross-Section]

As long as the work nails its emotional beats (either with or without the qualities mentioned by OP) I don't really care

 

[Deleted member 42105]

I learned pretty young that plot doesn't mean shit to me, it's all about characters and world building. If you can nail those 2 things, I'll forgive almost anything.

It's why I love 90s Disney and Jojos.

 

[Deleted member 41502]

I don't really care about "plot holes" most of the time. I like when a movie has some internal consistency though. I liked how magic sorta followed some rules in the Harry Potter books.

I sorta think its more important to me that characters have motivations that make sense. I really hate the "bad guy, wants to destroy/take over the world" character, or the "guy so good even Jesus would feel awkward talking to him" one. Its like the biggest stain on the LOTR books/movies to me. But then... I watched MI:Fallout last week and liked it, and the bad guy there is really dumb. So I guess I can live without it too.

 

[SweetVermouth]

It's very important to me when I watch movies that definitely try to tell a good story. It's not like I'm watching a movie just to point out plot holes though, It's more like I get so invested into the story and characters that when they do stuff that seems out of character or extremely stupid, I get disappointed in it.

For me to fully enjoy a movie and get emotional I have to like, feel and understand what is happening. This is why when I see a Michael Bay movie and the world is collapsing and he shows kids/families dying I do not care in the slightest because I have only met them in that one scene. It's cheap and garbage film making.

On the other hand it's not important at all when I watch stuff like Jason X. Movies that were created that do not take itself seriously, then it becomes a whole different thing. I can enjoy these too because sometimes maybe you just want a little mindless fun.

 

[caliph95]

Eh I nitpick shit but the older I get the less I give a shit about plot holes

There are times when it's so egregious or bad it breaks the plot for me but as long the character and emotional beats are good or at least the story is enjoyable I tend to give stories leeway

I care about other stuff than the story being super tight

So mildly

 

[ZackieChan]

Doesn't really affect me unless it's so egregious, like Prometheus, where everyone is so stupid I can't handle it. Most of the time, I go with it and just enjoy the ride.

 

[shaneo632]

Totally depends. A film like The Dark Knight Rises is more about operatic heft and shock and awe so when I'm watching it I'm not thinking too much about the silly bits.

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

It's really dependent on the media and what they're going for. I'll take compelling characters and their story over anything; this is why I love Lost but found GoT trash fire by the end.

 

[Deleted member 15428]

You guys would suffer during a Jodorowsky movie

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Completely depends on the kind of movie so I picked "Mildly Important". Comic book movie or action flick? Really don't give a shit to nitpick. Movies meant to be taken quite seriously or something depicting real or even real-is events? I obviously care about details.

 

[Gentlemen]

I usually only notice writing inconsistency if my brain starts to look for something to do because a film's look or acting has otherwise failed to grab me.

If I'm being entertained I stop caring if small parts of a film fall apart under close scrutiny.

Nitpicking doesn't happen if I some other part of the journey felt worthwhile for long enough.

 

[AnansiThePersona]

The more crazy out there the concept, the more I expect the story to follow it's rules consistently.

 

[Night Hunter]

Depends. There are shows, movies, etc. that run entirely on dream logic. And I couldn't really care less. Hannibal for example. The TV show that is.

And then there are things where it really detracts from the experience when the internal rules get broken, which is a bit harder to swallow, but I don't really care for the most part. A good example here would be the 50 years of Star Trek continuity.

The only times it really bugs me is when they already made a big plot point out of why something is the way it is and they disregard this very thing later on. Maybe a bad example, but it always rubbed me the wrong way how they pretty much teleported around the 4 nations in the third Avatar The Last Airbender season while taking forever to get anywhere in the first season.

 

[chrisPjelly]

It's mildly important. Obviously, more aggressively stupid omissions will bother me, but things like smaller retcons and visual updates due to the passage of time are just too silly to be concerned about. So long as the flow of the storytelling isn't broken and the same themes are followed through on, it's fine.