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fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,682
England
felt all that much like a Zelda game at all.

I think the main thing is that what a Zelda game is has now been re-written. And it was about time. If it wanted to be a freedom experience game, it can be. If it wants to be a champions vs. 1000 foes battler, it can be. Arbitrary rules stifle creativity and it is good to break them down.
 

Timbuktu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,234
Why is it so important to fans that the next Zelda game have little to no deviation from BotW?

In the history of the Legend of Zelda franchise history how many times have they done direct sequels that are exactly like the predecessor?

I mean, its great that you really liked BotW and you want more of the same but if you are a fan of the Legend of Zelda then you should accustomed to change.

I think deviation from BotW is inevitable, as much a departure that Majora''s Mask was to OoT. You can't make it about that sense of exploration again in a direct sequel. I think there will be exploration, but at its core it'll be about something else.
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
I think the main thing is that what a Zelda game is has now been re-written. And it was about time. If it wanted to be a freedom experience game, it can be. If it wants to be a champions vs. 1000 foes battler, it can be. Arbitrary rules stifle creativity and it is good to break them down.

Sure, and it wouldn't be the first time. Some Zelda games are more open then others, some are more linear than others, combat changes title to title (with 3D Zelda anyway). There's obviously still things that make Zelda, well... Zelda though. I don't think it should be controversial to say that "Hey, I wasn't a huge fan of how open BOTW was, I hope the next one is a bit more linear or has a bit more structure to it" or "Hey, I don't think the divine beasts, which all felt a bit too visually similar, especially inside, were sorry excuses for dungeons (not to mention Ganon being the boss in all of them being an abysmal replacement for unique monsters)". It's great that people enjoyed BOTW as much as they did, but since much of it just didn't click with me I don't want BOTW2, I want them to go back and do something else, just as they have with nearly every 3D title in the series.

Personally I want to a see a Skyward Sword X BOTW, because where I felt like Skyward Sword had a much larger focus on dungeons and was too linear, I thought BOTW had a much larger focus on the open world, and had... pretty lackluster (to say the least) dungeon replacements. I feel like they were so close to having the perfect Zelda game with both of them, but it just hasn't been reached yet.
 

John Dunbar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,229
adding a companion of any kind would be awful. i don't care do you play as link or zelda, but they should be alone. less dialogue and interruptions the better.

i also think the op does not address some of the major flaws of botw: the food and armour systems are downright broken, and enemy and weapon variety is pathetic.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
But I don't begrudge it for not being BOTW, and I don't begrudge BOTW for not being LTTP. They are both aiming to be different, do different things. I'm fully expecting my boy to be initially baffled that Age Of Calamity doesn't play like BOTW, but this is fine, what the game is trying to do is different.

BOTW could be very similar considering its the same engine and a direct continuation on possibly the same Hyrule. Its not something thats really been done in Zelda, and the closest thing is Majoras Mask which was very different so I have very high expectations for this kind of re-using of a setting.
 

Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
I literally addressed why I wanted that. I don't want that open-endedness, I want structure. I prefer carrots-on-sticks, I want a reason to go somewhere or do something. "See that mountain? You can climb it!" has never clicked with me, I don't find open-ended go-anywhere-do-anything-you-want-just-for-the-sake-of-it gameplay enjoyable. I want those reasons to climb a mountain, maybe I'll find a quest there (maybe a quest told me to go there!). Maybe I'll find some loot. I don't want to climb it only to find I wasted my time. Like I said in my post, I didn't like how I had virtually everything unlocked right off the bat through the sheikah slate. I don't want BOTW2, I want Zelda. There's plenty of open world games out there, there isn't anything for me to jump ship to if I preferred the style of gameplay of the vast majority of games in the Zelda series.

I think this the point where you have to understand/concede that Breath of the Wild is Zelda now, much like Ocarina's style and structure defined Zelda for the next 15 years after that game was released. The whole point of Breath of the Wild was to move away from the old structure. They said as much all the way back in 2013. And Aonuma reiterated after BOTW came out that the open-ended "open-air" style was here to stay for the foreseeable future.

If BOTW isn't your preferred style of Zelda game, that's totally cool. But it is what Zelda is now, and the fact that the game is still selling incredibly well three years on indicates that the vast majority of people like the change. It's just a matter of being able to admit that the 3D Zelda games may not be for you any more, and finding something else.

Will they make improvements/changes in the sequel? Absolutely. Are those changes going to overhaul the entire structure of the game to the extent that it discards the foundation BOTW was built upon? Highly unlikely. If anything, I expect they'll double down on the stuff that worked. More randomization, more emergent systems, more of a focus on survival and discovery, more spontaneous occurrences in the world etc etc.
 
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Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
It's just a matter of being able to admit that the 3D Zelda games may not be for you any more, and finding something else.

...which, as I've said multiple times in this thread, is what's frustrating me. If BOTW is Zelda now (and I think a series that has switched things about pretty regularly isn't necessarily going to be as much as a lot of you want it to. As someone else said, OOT's immediate sequel was vastly different in what it was going for), then I have no problem jumping to something else, but... there isn't anything else. We're already seeing BOTW clones in stuff like Genshin Impact and Fentx Rising (Man was God and Monsters the better title), and we'll probably see more in the years to come. But weirdly enough there isn't exactly a series for me to jump onto if I preferred ye olde style of Zelda. Trust me, I've looked.

I'm not expecting BOTW2 to be a vast departure from BOTW, because with the little detail we know about it it seems to be being developed as a direct sequel, which is fine, but I hope whatever comes after isn't afraid to switch things up again.
 

Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
...which, as I've said multiple times in this thread, is what's frustrating me. If BOTW is Zelda now (and I think a series that has switched things about pretty regularly isn't necessarily going to be as much as a lot of you want it to), then I have no problem jumping to something else, but... there isn't anything else. We're already seeing BOTW clones in stuff like Genshin Impact and Fentx Rising (Man was God and Monsters the better title), and we'll probably see more in the years to come. There isn't exactly a series for me to jump onto if I preferred ye olde style of Zelda. Trust me, I've looked.

Right, I get that... but it is what it is. They've been searching for a way to give Zelda a new identity and a new structure it can consistently rely on ever since Twilight Princess basically "perfected" the Ocarina formula in 2006. This is the new structure. This is what they're going to build on for the next 10 years. If you're a Zelda fan, you saw this coming.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
There isn't exactly a series for me to jump onto if I preferred ye olde style of Zelda. Trust me, I've looked.

Yeah there really is no replacement for the classic 3D Zeldas. Closest thing was like God of War for me.

Twilight Princess basically "perfected" the Ocarina formula in 2006

No, it did not, not even close. That overworld could be many times better, the engine itself limited what could be done and games have progressed a whole lot since TP. Skyward Sword showed how even following said formula they had a shitload they could have improved on, like that overworld being so empty and disconnected from the rest of the game (which was also segmented).
 

Timbuktu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,234
Yeah there really is no replacement for the classic 3D Zeldas. Closest thing was like God of War for me.

I guess Nintendo should expand on Zelda a bit, as much as they did for Mario, you have the team going back and forth from the Galaxy/Odyssey games and the NSMB/ 3D World games. You have to wonder if there will be another remake after BotW2 or if they'll do something else.
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
Right, I get that... but it is what it is. They've been searching for a way to give Zelda a new identity and a new structure it can consistently rely on ever since Twilight Princess basically "perfected" the Ocarina formula in 2006. This is the new structure. This is what they're going to build on for the next 10 years. If you're a Zelda fan, you saw this coming.

Did I? The darkness of Majora's mask was followed by the lighthearted, quirky, somewhat open world of Wind Waker, which was followed by the grim Twilight Princess, which was followed by the very linear but dungeon heavy Skyward Sword (with less impactful 2D titles scattered between). I don't think the series is afraid to try to switch things up entry to entry to keep things fresh.
 

RedAhmed

Member
Jan 9, 2018
3,283
I expected a lot of crap on BotW and how old Zelda games are superior, but these complaints are pretty solid imo! Great post!

Complaint: The game has 0 progression. I get why they wanted this so that you could go "anywhere at anytime" but it severely harms the pacing of the game and I feel much the same way at the end of the game as I do in the beginning (Minus the bigger stamina bar). Don't give me all the tools in the beginning, let me "earn" something.


Solution: Have unique tools like the old zeldas that require you to unlock them from the Dungeon. However this could be done without harming the ability to go anywhere. Make it so that the tool you get from the "themed" dungeon can help you find secrets in the themed area. Basically get the hookshot from the Zora Temple. Now you can use it to find lots of secrets in the Zora area. You could even tie it to the narrative. The shrines (in that area) could also make use of the new tool you get from the primary dungeon. You still get a real feeling of progression because you get new tools going through the dungeons.
As long as I can go anywhere from the start of the game, I agree. But I don't want parts of the world to be inaccessible because I don't have the right item.
But I wouldn't mind if I could earn an item that makes certain places easier to reach, or as you said, give me access to secrets. The problem with getting key items from dungeons is that they either become required to clear other content from the game or they are only really useful for a smaller part of the game. The runes in BotW1 are always useful and you can do any content in the game because you have them from the very start. If they can find a balance in that, that would be nice.

Complaint: No meaningful rewards from side quests


Solution: There are very few side quests in the base game that give you anything meaningful. You can get a better horse, and 3 new outfits, but thats really it that you can get from side quest. I would tie outfits to sidequests (instead of amiibos) and introduce a weapon reinforcment system that could be done through sidequests (See next point)
I agree. I want bigger, better sidequests. The dream is Majora's Mask levels of sidequests, which also really helps with making NPC's more interesting.

Complaint: Breakable weapons make combat pointless, when you get to the point that you have the best weapons in the game, engaging in combat negatively effects you.


Solution: Overhaul the breakable weapon system. Keep breakable weapons, but allow yourself to do side quests that reinforce the weapons durability. This would also solve the "No meaningful rewards from sidequests" problem. After reinforcing the weapon, you can make it unbreakable, but you can only make the best weapons unbreakable once you've progressed far enough in the game. Basically in the beginning only the crappier weapons can be made unbreakable. by the end game the best weapons can be.
I agree that the weapon system needs to be improved, but not the way you described it. Let weapons break like usual, but scale the durability with Master mode (if that ever returns), and allow broken weapons to be (re)forged. So, introduce a forging system, you can 'fuse' weapons to make another one (like fuse a few Travelers sword to make a Soldiers sword or something), or when a weapon breaks you get parts of it, which you can use to either repair it or use it to forge something different.

I would say do the opposite of what you suggest. Only weaker weapons are always breakable, but by the end of the game, you can make the good weapons more durable (or even unbreakable, but make that something hard to achieve) thanks to the forge. To add to this, add resources that are mined for the forge, making the forge practically cooking for weapons (if that makes any sense).

Complaint: I hate the shrines. They are repetitive, They all have the exact same same visual design, with the exact same music, and many of them have poor puzzle design. They also only use the same toolset throughout the whole game.


Solution: Have "Regional Shrines" Keep the shrines from BOTW, and instead have them have the art design/music based on where the shrines are located. Near Zoras domain? Have tons of water puzzles and more aquatic music. Near Gerudo Valley? Make them desert theme/Desert Music etc etc. Also remember how I mentioned earlier about having new tools you get from the various regions? Make them use that tool during the puzzle.
I don't really hate the shrines, I find most puzzles interesting. But I agree that they feel repetitive after a while. Regional shrines sound cool!

Complaint: I hate the repetitive dungeon designs.


Solution: Go back to the environmental dungeons, but get creative this time. Make it a design goal that you won't copy a template from a previous zelda game. Not everything has to be Water, Fire, Forest.
I agree, I want old dungeons back. But I don't agree that some older dungeons are of the same template. You have for example the Water temple and Great Bay temple. Both water temples, but both so different from each other. The same goes for Woodfall and the Forest temple, or Snowpeak mansion and Snowhead temple. I don't mind the themes they choose for the dungeons, I think they will turn out amazing either way.
Complaint: Navigating the world is honestly really... lonely.


Solution: I get why people like this, I understand the design decision and why they chose to do it this way, but I hate it. Bring back companions. People really want Zelda to be playable. Maybe make Zelda and playable companion in which you switch between the two? This would solve the problem and also finally give us playable zelda in a mainline game. I understand the technical difficulties might be massive here, but it would be an incredible shakeup to the formula. As an extra I'd also fill the towns much more now that we are further away from the initial apocalypse setting.
I don't agree with this point. The 'loneliness' of the first game is intentional I think, it's a post calamity Hyrule, most of the world is destroyed.
I'm also one of the few people around here that wants 2 switchable characters at the same time. The first game was the perfect opportunity for Zelda to be playable. They should have made the memories playable by having the player control Zelda while she goes into those shrines to unlock her powers. Making those shrines 'proper' dungeons.

For the sequel, I either want just 1 playable character or have a (small) portion of the game be exclusive to a certain character.

Also, the sequel is likely taking place only a short period after the end of BotW1, so it would still be an apocalypse. Perhaps there would be some more NPC's here and there, but I don't expect a big change.
Complaint: The story sucks, most interesting bits are told during flashbacks. Each areas story is just copied and pasted between different areas.


Solution: Easy fix, make each area have their own story, when you clear the area, you get some form of progression in the Main Plot. Basically, you have an interesting sub plot for each of themed areas, and then a primary story that is progressed each time you clear a dungeon.
I don't agree that the story sucks, I think the right words (to me) are that the story is no involved. It's just a retelling of stuff that already happened, you don't play at that moment. Which is probably why they are making AoC.

Having a better/more involved story is always good, as long as it doesn't impact the gameplay I'm fine with it. Though, even if there is barely a story, I still wouldn't care much if the game is good/better than BotW1. But that's just me.
 

Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
No, it did not, not even close. That overworld could be many times better, the engine itself limited what could be done and games have progressed a whole lot since TP. Skyward Sword showed how even following said formula they had a shitload they could have improved on, like that overworld being so empty and disconnected from the rest of the game (which was also segmented).

You're missing my point. My point is that Ocarina of Time has had several "successors" in Wind Waker, Twilight Princess (the closest thing to Ocarina) and Skyward Sword. These were all incremental improvements to that formula and audience reception was inconsistent at best, often dependent on a variety of other factors.

However, that structure has an upper limit. Even Twilight Princess, formerly the most successful game in the series, only hit 8.85 million units sold. And all throughout the course of these games, they've said that the were looking for the next big leap in Zelda's structure/identity, which would enable them to reach even greater heights. That's how we got to BOTW's design sensibility, and given how well the game has done and how much people like it, that structure is here to stay for the foreseeable future.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,626
Did I? The darkness of Majora's mask was followed by the lighthearted, quirky, somewhat open world of Wind Waker, which was followed by the grim Twilight Princess, which was followed by the very linear but dungeon heavy Skyward Sword (with less impactful 2D titles scattered between). I don't think the series is try to switch things up entry to entry to keep things fresh.
That's largely surface dressing, though. Leave Majora to one side, as that was a deliberately offbeat experiment, and all three of those games have a very similar structure to Ocarina in terms of progression and flow.
 

Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
Did I? The darkness of Majora's mask was followed by the lighthearted, quirky, somewhat open world of Wind Waker, which was followed by the grim Twilight Princess, which was followed by the very linear but dungeon heavy Skyward Sword (with less impactful 2D titles scattered between). I don't think the series is afraid to try to switch things up entry to entry to keep things fresh.

If you've followed the broader conversation, I think so, yeah. Aonuma's been saying since 2005 that they've been trying to hit upon the next "Ocarina". And while TWW, TP, and SS all tried different things, they were largely built upon the same foundation as Ocarina of Time. But all throughout, Aonuma has maintained that the goal is to get closer and closer to a breakthrough for the series, and to find what could be the next genre-defining thing for Zelda. (Which is now BOTW)
 

Ryuelli

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,209
You're missing my point. My point is that Ocarina of Time has had several "successors" in Wind Waker, Twilight Princess (the closest thing to Ocarina) and Skyward Sword. These were all incremental improvements to that formula and audience reception was inconsistent at best, often dependent on a variety of other factors.

However, that structure has an upper limit. Even Twilight Princess, formerly the most successful game in the series, only hit 8.85 million units sold. And all throughout the course of these games, they've said that the were looking for the next big leap in Zelda's structure/identity, which would enable them to reach even greater heights. That's how we got to BOTW's design sensibility, and given how well the game has done and how much people like it, that structure is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

Nobody is arguing that BOTW wasn't more financially successful, but we're frustrated that we're already seeing games bring in elements of BOTW's design and/or were heavily influenced it by it, which means that as the years go by there's obviously going to be plenty of alternatives for the (obviously majority) of people who loved it, yet for the minority of us who didn't love it (and for the record, I liked it, I'd say it's a 7/10, but I didn't think it was a masterpiece by any means), there isn't an alternative for that structure that we fell in love with the series for. You're saying "Get used to it", but I'm hearing "Sucks to be you".

I think it's more than possible to have the structure of BOTW while simultaneously implementing elements of the series it was lacking in.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
Zelda games followed the same overarching structure since A Link to the Past.
An overall linear progression in story and what new regions and dungeons you could explore and a clear cut between the overworld and dungeons.
New areas were then "unlocked" by what you gained in the dungeon, which could also lead you to some new hidden optional items in the overworld. Sometims the formular allowed you to visit some dungeons in any order you want (like a few in the Dark World in ALttP).

The overall structure of the dungeons however was formed in Links Awakening. With Boss Keys unlocking the chamber to the boss and key items being in some treasure chest (which unlock many parts of the dungeon and do help you to defeat the boss). The rest was borrowed by ALttP.
And yes, dungeons can be rather linear or open, based on what game and what dungeon.
(And no, I haven't seen a game other than Zelda with Zelda-like dungeons as good as Zelda. Not even close)
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I do think BotW2 will shake things up in some regard but I don't expect it to deviate on the levels of Majora's Mask or such.

Of course if you told me we'd get the prequel as a Warriors title I wouldn't have believed you so who knows.
 

Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
Nobody is arguing that BOTW wasn't more financially successful, but we're frustrated that we're already seeing games bring in elements of BOTW's design and/or were heavily influenced it by it, which means that as the years go by there's obviously going to be plenty of alternatives for the (obviously majority) of people who loved it, yet for the minority of us who didn't love it (and for the record, I liked it, I'd say it's a 7/10, but I didn't think it was a masterpiece by any means), there isn't an alternative for that structure that we fell in love with the series for. You're saying "Get used to it", but I'm hearing "Sucks to be you".

I'm not saying "sucks to be you" at all. What I'm saying is that there are just as many people that wanted the kind of game BOTW is (a large world full of wonder and discovery and interesting world-building with a realistically-proportioned Link) to be what Ocarina's successors were.

The Wind Waker wasn't that game, which is why it was received the way it was. Twilight Princess came the closest to being that kind of game, but had a large number of planned elements that were left on the cutting floor, largely due to the fact that it was Nintendo's first time making a game of that scale on a large budget. And then, Skyward Sword was also not the kind of game people were hoping for.

And it sounds like you enjoyed all three of those games while other people didn't necessarily enjoy them (or at least, didn't enjoy TWW and SS as much, if we use sales as a broad metric). Back then, you were getting what you wanted, while other people weren't. And now, other people are getting what they want instead, and that's just part of things changing and evolving over time.

To put it simply, I'm not saying you should go sit in a corner or anything of the sort. As a fan, you absolutely have a right to participate in discussions. I'm just saying, it gets a little exhausting to see these exact same discussions happen every two weeks about how the old design was better, in literally every single Zelda thread. We know for a fact that even Nintendo doesn't think the old design was better. They were bored of it themselves, and games are a creative business at the end of the day. If the creators aren't feeling it any more, I don't think it's reasonable to insist they continue making games in that style.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
You're missing my point. My point is that Ocarina of Time has had several "successors" in Wind Waker, Twilight Princess (the closest thing to Ocarina) and Skyward Sword. These were all incremental improvements to that formula and audience reception was inconsistent at best, often dependent on a variety of other factors.

However, that structure has an upper limit. Even Twilight Princess, formerly the most successful game in the series, only hit 8.85 million units sold. And all throughout the course of these games, they've said that the were looking for the next big leap in Zelda's structure/identity, which would enable them to reach even greater heights. That's how we got to BOTW's design sensibility, and given how well the game has done and how much people like it, that structure is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

The upper limit for that formula is not even close to being reached. The series direction getting stale was less because of being linear and more because they aren't nearly as impressive as they could have been. SS seemingly pushed motion controls more than anything and didn't do much else new, and that has nothing to do with linearity.

Like Majoras Mask (an n64 game) still has the most interesting NPC interaction and scheduling. TP still has the most expressive and interesting co-star.
These kinds of things could be taken so much farther by now.

They also used to have very distinct world premises and gimmicks, whether that was travelling between light and dark worlds, present and future, flooded and unflooded, Sky and Ground. BOTW is just kinda "its open world, I guess" which is not going to be particularly distinct moving forward.
 
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Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
The upper limit for that formula is not even close to being reached. The series direction getting stale was less because of being linear and more because they aren't nearly as impressive as they could have been. SS seemingly pushed motion controls more than anything and didn't do much else new, and that has nothing to do with linearity.

I think there are ways they could have explored the old structure in new, interesting ways, but I feel as though the non-linearity was inevitable. Just as an example, Sekiro was one of my favourite games last year, and the whole time I was playing it, I felt that the structure was perfectly suited to the older style of Zelda—set in a fairly small but very dense world with lots to discover. But even Sekiro is very non-linear in how you approach it. After the first couple of bosses, you have the option to tackle the remainder of the game in whatever order you feel works best for you.

Ultimately, though, Nintendo clearly felt that the upper limit had been reached, and that the way forward was a major shakeup. They also said their own designers/directors had grown bored of the old structure, which played a major role in why BOTW is the way it is. So they took a risk and it paid off. The series is more popular than ever, and the dev team feels more creatively fulfilled at the same time. I'd say that's a win on the whole.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
I think there are ways they could have explored the old structure in new, interesting ways, but I feel as though the non-linearity was inevitable. Just as an example, Sekiro was one of my favourite games last year, and the whole time I was playing it, I felt that the structure was perfectly suited to the older style of Zelda—set in a fairly small but very dense world with lots to discover. But even Sekiro is very non-linear in how you approach it. After the first couple of bosses, you have the option to tackle the remainder of the game in whatever order you feel works best for you.

Ultimately, though, Nintendo clearly felt that the upper limit had been reached, and that the way forward was a major shakeup. They also said their own designers/directors had grown bored of the old structure, which played a major role in why BOTW is the way it is. So they took a risk and it paid off. The series is more popular than ever, and the dev team feels more creatively fulfilled at the same time. I'd say that's a win on the whole.

Its unfortunate we will never see something with the production values of say GoW because the lake of 9 is basically a Zelda hub map done better than any of the Zelda games, and Atreus is a more useful and realized sidekick type than any Zelda game also. I guess I can see Sekiro having a few similarities too.
 

Oaklight

Avenger
Jun 16, 2018
933
I agree with all of the points in the op except for the loneliness part. One of the most beautiful aspects of BoTW was the feeling of melancholy and isolation that came from exploring the ruins of Hyrule all by yourself and wondering how it all came to this. Having a companion chatting their heads off and interrupting that observation would very much take away from that experience.

One of my biggest issues with BoTW was the lack of escalation. The moment you step outside the great plataue, the game basically never changes and the stakes never really heighten. You do get more powerful equipment with higher stats and what not but nothing really escalates beyond that especially from a narrative standpoint. A link Between Worlds had the same problem where you could progress through the game in any way you choose for the most part, but the difficulty of the game never really changes as a result so things get way to easy as the challenge plataues early on.

I loved BoTW but I do wish that the sequel and beyond are able to inject some of the good ideas from past Zelda games in order to find a good balance. Many of the problems with BoTW are fundamental to most open world games that I've played, but even Ghost of Tsushima had a three act structure which gave that much needed sense of escalation and narrative cohesion. I am very excited for AoC and BoTW 2 nonetheless and look forward to what Nintendo will cook up next.
 

Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
Its unfortunate we will never see something with the production values of say GoW because the lake of 9 is basically a Zelda hub map done better than any of the Zelda games, and Atreus is a more useful and realized sidekick type than any Zelda game also. I guess I can see Sekiro having a few similarities too.

I will say I don't agree with your assessment of BOTW being as simple as "it's open-world, I guess". That clearly isn't an argument made in good faith. BOTW has a lot more going for it beyond being an open-world game, and these qualities have been studied and documented by a ton of people, including other game devs.

If anything, there's a lot more there for them to build upon than there was in the older Zeldas. More emergent systems, more randomization and spontaneity in how the world works, behavioral stuff with enemies and different ecosystems interacting in different ways. The stuff they came up with has the potential to be explored in much greater depth, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing that happen in BOTW2.
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,682
England
I would like to see the game go in harder on some of its mechanics. Really drive a need to set up camp and a fire, really hit home with those environmental challenges - because I basically bought my way into surviving hot/cold/on fire - those environmental armours should have 100% been parked in the shrine quest shrines, like the rubber armour. Or in those weirdo labyrinths, like the barbarian armour. Make it so I have to really prepare to look after myself vs. the elements. Use the food, hot springs, little cabins.

That would probably be more effective than gating the game behind tools, it would fit the game a lot better.
 

Efejota

Member
Mar 13, 2018
3,750
If you really end up making all weapons unbreakable i think you'd also need to make them much less powerful to compensate, but idk if that would be that fun either. The enemies are powerful enough, though... but that also has to do with the weapon power.
 

Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
I would like to see the game go in harder on some of its mechanics. Really drive a need to set up camp and a fire, really hit home with those environmental challenges - because I basically bought my way into surviving hot/cold/on fire - those environmental armours should have 100% been parked in the shrine quest shrines, like the rubber armour. Or in those weirdo labyrinths, like the barbarian armour. Make it so I have to really prepare to look after myself vs. the elements. Use the food, hot springs, little cabins.

That would probably be more effective than gating the game behind tools, it would fit the game a lot better.

This is exactly what I'd like to see as well. BOTW is a wonderful experience, and an even better foundation for future Zelda games to build upon. If you actually do end up playing as both Link and Zelda, I think it would be super interesting to allow the player to control either one and let them split up to go explore different parts of the surrounding terrain in parallel. And you'd have to keep an eye on their individual health, make sure they're equipped to survive, bring them back to camp when necessary etc.

Also, I love that "buying your way into surviving" is a valid approach. And it should continue to be--survival by any means necessary, basically.
 

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,682
England
Also, I love that "buying your way into surviving" is a valid approach.

True, my repeat plays of the game usually involve getting to Rito as a very early objective with a lot of rock smashing on the way. If I can grab a full set of Rito armour, open up a couple of fairies, I'm usually well set to go around and do whatever I feel like. I also make sure I grab the Warm Doublet on the plateau, plus clear out Kakariko & Hateneo for clothing too. Very much in and out of the towns, grab my fundamentals, get me into world and not hanging around in towns.

However, if this was my first play through, I would absolutely have to discover that shop by accident, meaning the old cook some berries routine would be the way I have to play the game. Perhaps I'm too much of a veteran now! I do remember that I spent a lot of time purely exploring on my first run through, trying to see where I could get to, before hitting up Rito as my first divine beast.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
I think it's easy to pull apart a game like this, and many of your solutions come down to 'do this area of the game better'. Do you not think the developer would not have wanted better designed puzzles if they had the choice? Do you not think they would not have wanted the shrines to be more aesthetically varied, given the choice?

There are some points that I agree with, but I think in general your post lacks consideration for why the design is the way it is, and in many cases the solutions you provide are not easily actionable. I've broken down the post below. I've removed the solutions for brevity.

Complaint: The game has 0 progression. I get why they wanted this so that you could go "anywhere at anytime" but it severely harms the pacing of the game and I feel much the same way at the end of the game as I do in the beginning (Minus the bigger stamina bar). Don't give me all the tools in the beginning, let me "earn" something.

Complaint: No meaningful rewards from side quests

It's certainly true that the game is not that rewarding, but they focused their time into the systemic design of the world. So, less would have been placed on adding lots of mechanics and features that have to layer into that systemic design. By focusing only on the core features they can make every mechanic interact with the world in a multitude of different ways.

I think the risk in unlocking new abilities and powers is that the game may not feel as good, until you unlock those. Take something like Rage 2, where the guns are locked behind vaults, dotted around the world. While in principle it seems like a rewarding way to get people to explore the environment, the reality is that without all of those guns, the gunplay is a little dull, and the game is just more fun, moment to moment when players have all of them available.

So the approach in Rage 2 actually backfires, because players only get the best experience out of the game, after completing most of it. Still, perhaps there's probably a balance that you can strike that helps players feel more rewarded than Breath of the Wild, but still gives players all the tools they need to have a good time without feeling forced to get to a specific place so that the game really opens up. That's a difficult balance to strike in a game like this, though.

If you consider other open world, fairly open ended games like Assassins Creed Odyssey, they don't have much for the player to attain either. Other than the progression embedded within the players skill tree and fairly arbitrary power increases (armour increases in strength but so too do enemies increase in their defense), everything is aesthetic. Perhaps a future Breath of the Wild game could have more cosmetics, or at least more variety. Dark Souls has a good approach to things like weapon variety (with a tonne of weapons in the games, but none of them are necessarily stronger, or replace what you begin with, they just provide more choice).

In any case, there's a lot of approaches they might take to this, but it's up to the designers to make the right decision here. It's also worth bearing in mind that there's a lot of merit to the sheer number of options you have available to you right out of the gate. While the world may not seem rewarding, it is very flexible as a result of all of those abilities granted to you very early on.

Complaint: Breakable weapons make combat pointless, when you get to the point that you have the best weapons in the game, engaging in combat negatively effects you.

There are many issues with the weapon system, they make combat pointless as you say (though this may be the point, without an explicit reward (e.g. combat to get past someone, to obtain a chest), then combat is a waste of resources. This makes you evaluate whether you should fight, or flee.

I agree though, that there's a lot of odd design with the weapon system. For one, it becomes pointless to open said chest when you already have a vast inventory of weapons, and because the only meaningful rewards are shrine rewards (stamina/health) you know that you'll never get anything meaningful, from the overworld. In that sense, everything in the overworld can feel a little pointless.

Consuming weapons and arrows only to open a chest to find a weapon which will later be consumed, doesn't feel very rewarding. So in this sense I think they would do well to look at the overworld gameplay loop and reward structure. Perhaps rupees could be more meaningful in the economy, and push you to delve deeper and deeper for treasure that you could bring back to camp? Perhaps rebuilding one of the villages in a significant way could push the player to find rupees. This is just a hypothetical suggestion, it doesn't have to be as I describe, but reviewing how the player is rewarded outside of shrines would be a good way forward.

As for weapon durability, I do think the idea that the durability means that fights come with a cost, creates a problem for the design. But it's important to pull back and look at the system and what experiential goal it's trying to achieve, before criticising or redesigning it. The durability system seemingly exists to encourage players to experiment, but at present the cost and abundance of breakable weapons likely stifles experimentation, as players either, choose not to fight altogether, or just cycle through a selection of the same breakable weapons to force their way through a fight. Neither of those options see players engaging with the world in fun or creative ways.

I think an answer to this problem probably lies in other games with disposable weapons / mechanics, like Spelunky. For instance in Spelunky, the player always has their default weapon (the whip, and jump attack) but the player can also find a tonne of different weapons which have value because they are powerful. In Spelunky a skeleton's skull is a one-use weapon (shattering when thrown) but offers considerable value because it enables the player to do things, that they couldn't otherwise do.

I think similar to that design, Breath of the Wild might benefit from allowing the player to attack freely (i.e. with a weapon with infinite durability) but then offering more situational tools in the environment that offer very particular value that extends beyond that default capability. This might be something like the wands which can set things alight or freeze enemies, or it could be a giant spear that allows link to charge large enemies down. Weapon durability could still feature, but having durability tied to weapons that all have roughly the same basic functionality doesn't help with variety at all.

Complaint: I hate the shrines. They are repetitive, They all have the exact same same visual design, with the exact same music, and many of them have poor puzzle design. They also only use the same toolset throughout the whole game.

Complaint: I hate the repetitive dungeon designs.

This is a big one where I think your suggestion is a little redundant. There are a million and one ways in which the developer could spice up the shrines, and make them more varied, but they all come with a fairly hefty development cost. They had 100+ of these Shrines to design, to minimising the aesthetic workload probably benefited the team significantly in getting all of this done.

Nonetheless, for future games I do hope more aesthetic variety is something that they consider. There are a lot of means in which they could interject that. It could be, as you say themed around the area its in, or it could be something else. Personally I like the idea that shrines could contain aesthetics and styles from a civilization that did not exist in the world above, and that they let you learn about civilisations, before those? I feel that would make sense as they are supposed to be ancient places. But, that's just one of hundreds of ideas that Nintendo could use to make the shrines more visually interesting.

As for the puzzle designs, yes, bad puzzles are bad. In order to get past that Nintendo would need to put more faith in user research and things like playtesting. As is, I don't think Nintendo do much real playtesting, and actually started doing this with Breath of the Wild. Still, I would imagine many of the puzzles relied upon the more oldschool design method at Nintendo, where they simply put faith in the designers to make engaging content that players will enjoy, and then hope that actually happens.

You can see that in some of puzzles. There's a disconnection between how you can see a puzzle being experienced in a designers mind, and how it's actually experienced. The ball gyro puzzle is a good example of this. I can see that, someone who's experienced with the gyro controls and enjoys using them, would imagine players having a lot of fun with this puzzle. But when it sits inside the context of the whole play experience, a sudden gyro puzzle with rather strict requirements for precision just ends up being frustrating. So the solution to this issue perhaps lies within better user research processes, which is going to be an ongoing change you see from Nintendo in the next 20 plus years (at present, they are not very mature in this department).

It's also worth noting that it's likely that while they experimented with this new open ended structure they may have wanted to keep the detail in the shrines and dungeons fairly minimal. It's possible that during development Nintendo did not know where the shrines would fit, or what the game would look like. The abstract nature of the shrines allows a developer to work on these without great consideration to the world above, which might be appreciable as it allows people to work more independently. Worrying about the context above and what aesthetic and puzzles should feature makes sense, but it might have been a burden that the developer did not want while they experimented with this new structure for the series.

Complaint: Navigating the world is honestly really... lonely.

I think this was a design choice. I think an alternative could be to have a companion that generally only speaks when requested, something subtle (like Navi from Ocarina of Time), but not imposing. Someone that can be present to speak to when requested, but won't interrupt the sense of isolation. I think that your suggestion of having someone like Zelda to tag along with would really spoil the deliberate tone of the game.

And even though I suggested having someone like Navi to accompany you here, it's really not required. I'd prefer it personally, but it's a very subjective thing and for some the game will offer a better experience without any companionship at all.

Complaint: The story sucks, most interesting bits are told during flashbacks. Each areas story is just copied and pasted between different areas.

The minimal approach to the story telling is obviously a stylistic choice, as for whether the story content is well written / engaging that's very subjective, but I can't imagine Nintendo were trying to make it bad, or uninteresting. It's likely that Nintendo wanted the story to be free-form (so players could approach it from any angle) and the most cost effective means of making this happen was just to make it very simplistic. Telling the same story 4 times is an easy means of ensuring that no player gets a drastically different experience regardless of the direction they choose to go, but I agree that it's a bit disappointing if you were hoping to be motivated forward by the narrative. Better and more diverse writing for each area would help here, but I think the narrative could also benefit by being much more spread out into the world (more NPCs, more quests, and whatnot to give the world more character).

Of course, all of this ultimately just comes down to resource limitations. If Nintendo want to spend more time on the narrative then I'm sure they will allocate the development resources appropriately. Breath of the Wild had its focus in other areas, likely because they wanted to nail that more innovative free-flowing structure before worrying about things like the narrative. By stripping it back it enabled them to play with the games structure without worry. Hopefully now that they've had practice at this more open-ended structure, we can see them bring back more narrative detail and depth.

---

Just some closing thoughts. For me most of these were really non-issues, I personally only really take issue with the durability system and rewards embedded into the core gameplay loop. I think had the durability system been more interesting (i.e. weapons be breakable but had value that justified their dispensability, then the game would have been much more compelling for me. Equally, I'd like better rewards than just another breakable weapon embedded into the overworld (and even the bonus chests within shrines).

The rest, the aesthetic diversity, the narrative, the puzzle variety. Those are all fair criticisms but likely design choices that resulted from the already heavy development workload of this new approach to the Zelda formula. It's likely that this style would naturally become richer in those areas in future games.
 

Ishaan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
True, my repeat plays of the game usually involve getting to Rito as a very early objective with a lot of rock smashing on the way. If I can grab a full set of Rito armour, open up a couple of fairies, I'm usually well set to go around and do whatever I feel like. I also make sure I grab the Warm Doublet on the plateau, plus clear out Kakariko & Hateneo for clothing too. Very much in and out of the towns, grab my fundamentals, get me into world and not hanging around in towns.

My second playthrough was very different from my first, too, haha. The first time I played the game, I explored a lot of Lanayru, as most people do, after getting off the plateau. The second time, I got off the plateau, gathered the bare essentials (a couple of swords, a shield, and an unimpressive horse), and rode my way straight to the Gerudo Village, to see what it felt like exploring the desert as my first area.

The heat and cold killed me several times along the way, but I eventually forced my way through enough Shrines to get an extra heart piece. Whenever I felt overwhelmed, I would make a trip back to Lanayru for a change of pace, do a few more Shrines, and eventually got a fifth heart container. After that, I decided to throw caution to the wind and snuck my way into Hyrule Castle with just five hearts and managed to retrieve the Hylian Shield, so I could shield surf around the desert without worrying about my shield breaking too quickly.

It really is pretty amazing how different the game can feel depending on where you choose to go first, and how that drives your decision-making.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,357
There's plenty of open world games out there for you to play (hell, isn't Genshin Impact a BOTW-esque game?).
In looks sure. It's a title that I have absolutely interest in, though.

Nobody is arguing that BOTW wasn't more financially successful, but we're frustrated that we're already seeing games bring in elements of BOTW's design and/or were heavily influenced it by it, which means that as the years go by there's obviously going to be plenty of alternatives for the (obviously majority) of people who loved it, yet for the minority of us who didn't love it (and for the record, I liked it, I'd say it's a 7/10, but I didn't think it was a masterpiece by any means), there isn't an alternative for that structure that we fell in love with the series for. You're saying "Get used to it", but I'm hearing "Sucks to be you".
Yup. That's pretty much it. I've watched one my favorite franchises of all time completely shift gears following Final Fantasy IX. Those games and that series will never play like the older titles ever again, and that's just something I've begrudgingly accepted. The series moved forward, but I didn't.
 
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deathsaber

Member
Nov 2, 2017
3,097
Oh, its easy

1. Give us a more traditionally told plot that takes place in the present- not presented solely via optional cutscenes you find that tells you what happened in the distant past- I know why they did what they did in BOTW- give the gamer as clean a slate as possible to just explore and find out what happened in this world, but I think a lot of gamers need more of a reason to press on than "heres a big open world, the final boss is over there, explore it and go challenge said boss when you feel prepared

2. Real Zelda dungeons- 8 or 9 large and unique areas with the usual conventions- keys, map, compass, boss room, special item obtained that helps in the dungeon (and gives more future combat and traversal options for the overworld)- in place of having 120 mini temples

3. Maybe just a little more convenience here and there. Keep weapon condition/breakage a thing, but allow us to repair a weapon we like. Or if its raining and those mountains are slippery- give us some sticky climbing gloves or the like instead of leaving us SOL.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,685
I will say I don't agree with your assessment of BOTW being as simple as "it's open-world, I guess". That clearly isn't an argument made in good faith. BOTW has a lot more going for it beyond being an open-world game, and these qualities have been studied and documented by a ton of people, including other game devs.

If anything, there's a lot more there for them to build upon than there was in the older Zeldas. More emergent systems, more randomization and spontaneity in how the world works, behavioral stuff with enemies and different ecosystems interacting in different ways. The stuff they came up with has the potential to be explored in much greater depth, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing that happen in BOTW2.

Was speaking thematically, not in terms of what the engine does. Followup games could very well have much more of a unique premise.
 

Scruffy8642

Member
Jan 24, 2020
2,849
I disagree with zero progression. The entire point of the game is exploration, and as you get more shrine orbs, you get more health and stamina so you can explore previously unreachable areas/do so more easily. It was a perfect feedback loop for me. At the start of the game you feel limited going to most places, and how the game is able to guide you to certain areas first (most get guided to Zora's Domain early due to the world layout, while the other 3 zones are somewhat gated by environmental hazards early game) vs later in the game where you can go basically anywhere with ease and confidence.

Shrine aesthetics being changed and having themes for environments would be great. But Loneliness is one of the game's greatest points, I'd rather not have some annoyance constantly yapping in my ear like Genshin Impact does.

Personally, the changes I want to see are a stronger story that you engage with beyond just the overlying plot like the first game. There was so much lore, but we don't necessarily get to experience much as the player. And secondly, form changes/masks ala Majora's Mask. I spent the whole game thinking about how cool it would be to roll around at speed as a Goron, or swim like a Zora, fly like a Rito. In such a big sandbox, having more movement options open up would be an awesome addition.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,297
Was kinda confused reading this thread as I was lurking, with all the people saying these were so great, or OP should even go into game design. This is just a consolidated list of common complaints people have with the game since day 1 that either 1) everyone (even those who love the game) would generally agree on, or are once again, 2) stated without regard to the game's design. OP did a good job but this is really nothing new.

For one, "the game has zero sense of progression" is a flat out misread. Hearts, stamina, champion powers, armor upgrades, Koroks seeds, runs upgrades. And those are only the permanent ones. Temporary ones such as weapons and food still matter for making your way through the overworld.

Agree about the shrine variations. I suggested that exact same thing a year or two ago. Desert, snow, wind, water, fire, forest aesthetics for them with different music. Not necessarily all 120 being different, the above suggestion is more than enough

More variety in bosses was drastically needed too, though that was probably a time constraint. Would've loved to see some bosses in shrines, don't know if those minor/major test of strengths count. I'm talking big bosses.