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thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
It's been an interesting couple of days to watch peoples reactions to the Unreal Engine 5 demo. It actually makes me somewhat concerned though. Let me explain:

One thing that most people don't understand is that you guys might be swooning over what might just become the new 'piss filter'. This UE5 demo is impressive looking for sure and I love that it made everyone excited for next gen. I just kinda hope that the new standard for games won't just by default be 'PBR + Scans'. The industry has been in dire need of some change of pace for some time now - If you look at the credits for games like Uncharted, etc., I'm sure everyone noticed the armies of people that had to be hired to make these environments look like that. And I'd say that at this point it was probably unsustainable to improve graphics even more without actually changing how we go about creating those envs.

The big change that Epic is proposing here is that artists won't have to deal with making their own assets anymore - Yeah, photogrammetry has been used before, but I think not to the extent that will be required to achieve these kinda visuals throughout an entire game. Achieving this ridiculous level of detail is probably only doable if you actually use scans. Right now the standard is that all this stuff is sculpted by hand - and I'd honestly say it'd be ridiculous trying to match that look without scans. It's doable (just as it's doable asking a painter to paint in a photorealistic manner...), but probably not economically viable, especially since Quixel and other companies are out there providing film and game studios with high quality scans that are cheaper than hiring highly talented digital artists.

The nice thing that you do get from the 'current workflow' inside most studios is that at least there's still some artistic touch to it. Once the majority of developers have figured out that to achieve these next-gen AAA visuals, you have to resort to a PBR+Scans workflow, I honestly fear that a lot of games will start looking very samey. Why? Cause everyone is using the same asset library and a PBR model on top. Yeah, some AAA studios might also at that point be out and about doing their own scans, but you really have to ask yourself: how much as an artist can you still influence how things are gonna look if that's the way you go about it? I mean, what tools do you have left at this point to make your game stand out visually from the rest? Play around with tonemapping and image effects? Whoop-dee-doo.

If everything Epic is touting turns out to be true, I think we'll see a lot of games that will look very, very similar to one another, cause the goal here is to get closer and closer to photorealism and the only economically viable way to get there is by adapting this kinda way of working. Looking at it in a very simplified way, at this point all you're doing as an environment artist would be slapping some scans into a scene over a blockout, maybe paint a little on top, adjust the lighting and you're good.

My point is: I think a lot of developers will feel forced to adapt this way of working due to the ever-increasing demands on graphics becoming more and more photorealistic. And here's Epic giving developers awesome new ways of getting there. That in itself is a good thing, having some games out there that look photorealistic is a good thing. My fear with all of this is that it'll become a new trend. I think we'll see many, many, many games being done in this exact same way and while we'll reach new heights in terms of detail and will inch closer and closer to photorealism, we'll also see artists losing control, because realism is the name of the game.

A similar thing to that actually happened before. With Animation. The games industry used to employ quite a lot of traditional keyframe animators. With the rise of motion capture though, we've seen keyframe animation become almost a thing of the past in games. And I think that's a shame, since keyframe animation can still provide such amazing results - But Motion Capture is comparatively cheap and 'looks more real, so it's the right tool for the job'.

I guess this is just a little word of warning and I hope I'm wrong about this, but I don't think I will be. You'll see a lot of games that get this distinct PBR+Scans look, cause it's 'cheap' and comparatively economically viable. And while we're all swooning today, will we not get tired of most games looking like that 3-4 years from now?
 

joeblow

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,928
Laker Nation
I look for more and more "realism" in things that are external to the on-screen game itself: virtual reality headsets, gyro aiming, VR gun/glove peripherals, haptic feedback (controllers, vests, etc.), surround sound systems, etc.

As for the games themselves, realism to the point of being tedious is not fun. I judge that on a case-by-case basis. For instance, Ghosts of Tsushima allows players to gater crafting materials from trees and such while riding past trees at full speed. Realistic? No, but it beats stopping, getting off the horse, getting a small blade and cutting the material before getting back on the horse every single time.

When it comes to realistic "looking" games, the only issue I may have is how often the uncanny valley effect kicks in. Either go all in with realism, or maintain a HQ animated look. If anything, the Cuphead developer showed you can get awesome results by not going with tried-and-true video game visuals by focusing on something different. The tech itself doesn't have to box you in to how a new release looks.
 
Nov 23, 2018
878
Time will tell (in regards to how similar games look in 5 years). I'm more looking forward to developers advancing gameplay experiences, advanced AI, and seamless worlds increasing my transportation levels. Graphics are great and the UEV reveal provides a "glimpse into the future" - However, there is a lot more on my mind than this one aspect.
 

Deleted member 59109

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 8, 2019
7,877
The opposite of excited, realism usually turns me off because it makes the game more boring and dull-colored.
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
I've spent a lot of this year playing games like RimWorld, KOTOR1, Caves of Qud and Kenshi. It has made me realize that I really don't care that much about realism or graphics. Graphics are nice, but art style and gameplay are vastly more important to me. So I'm very much in the camp that doesn't mind if a game doesn't strive for realism. I find myself getting more immersed in games like Kenshi or VRChat even though they're far from realistic looking when compared to something like RDR2 or LoU2.
 

Nabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,421
I'm already tired of realistic looking games since at least two gens ago. The more same-y and lifelike games look, generally the less appealing they are to me. I usually prefer cartoony or stylized graphics. Hopefully enough devs will zag in next gen and we'll still see enough of these types of games. I already expect most AAA games to look same-y and realistic, so I will keep looking to Nintendo and a few other major devs, and mostly the indie scene, for my fix.
 
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cjn83

Banned
Jul 25, 2018
284
Games won't be anymore samey from PBR+photogrammetry than the real world is, or any movie we've seen. I think this is a non-issue.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,529
Zero. Not much else to say that hasn't already been said, but I'm just not here for it. I'm not necessarily against it, but it can fuck stuff up as often as it makes things better (more often than not in my experience).

And honestly most people don't care. Sooooo many of the most popular and highest selling games ever are unrealistic.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,305
I remember similar concerns about previous versions of Unreal Engine, and quite frankly, I found them a bit overblown then too. 🤷‍♀️ There's a wild variety of art styles out there and I think we'll continue to see tons of games that aim for photorealism, and others for hyperrealism, and others for various styles of cartoony/stylized, etc.
So no, I'm neither excited nor worried, really.
 

GamerDude

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,313
I'm definitely most excited by realism in graphics. By far. The more lifelike the game can look, the better.

That said, I like having some games with different art styles. Such as...Ori :)
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I'm really not interested in photorealism in games at all. I much prefer stylised routes for art direction, vibrant colours etc.
 
OP
OP
thomasmahler

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
Games won't be anymore samey from PBR+photogrammetry than the real world is, or any movie we've seen. I think this is a non-issue.
You're completely missing the point here. Films are films, you're already recording the real world, so the output obviously looks real. Games at this point are more like paintings, they're an abstraction of the real world, even if some games already try to look realistic.

Once you use scans, PBR and GI, then yes, games might just look like 'any movie we've seen'.
 
Oct 28, 2017
799
I'm interested to see how close to realism games can get next gen, but more from a technical interest. I'd rather games be fun and engaging first over being realistic looking.
 

Carn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,911
The Netherlands
I'm really not interested in photorealism in games at all. I much prefer stylised routes for art direction, vibrant colours etc.

This is me as well. Realism is incredibly hard; even Hollywood-CGI looks fake for most of the time. No way we're getting there with realtime graphics anytime soon. I'dd rather have tasteful artdirection and stylised graphics (like Naughty Dog & Rockstar excels at). It results into a much more cohesive graphical look and -usually- evaders the whole 'uncanny valley' problem.
 

Dancrane212

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,962
Those are some good points. I figured this tech would be great to open up more avenues for teams with less resources, but I hadn't really thought about those larger studios consolidating styles around it.

I guess we'll have to see how it pans out.
 

Damn Silly

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,187
I mean, it's not going to be something I complain about but in the immortal words of Shania Twain, it don't impress me much. I definitely prefer stylized.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
I heard this concern at the start of last gen too, all UE games were samey. I don't think it'll be an issue.

Anyway I prefer visual style and responsiveness of gameplay over realism any day of the week ^^.
 

nizerifin

Member
Jun 9, 2018
177
I already think games look great, so I'm not concerned about achieving photorealism. Let's get to 1440p60 and then worry about improving visuals!
 
OP
OP
thomasmahler

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
I heard this concern at the start of last gen too, all UE games were samey. I don't think it'll be an issue.

Anyway I prefer visual style and responsiveness of gameplay over realism any day of the week ^^.
It's one thing if an engine has a certain look due to the way its shading + lighting model works. It's a whole different thing if developers all start to use the same assets from an asset library with the same textures and materials on top. That we've never really seen before. Wait and see - in a few years you'll see a lot of Youtube videos pop up where we'll see funny comparisons of how 'this asset here in Final Fantasy VII is the exact same asset that was used in Battlefield!'. Does it matter? No, probably not, developers should always look for ways to work faster and more efficiently. But I don't think people quite realize how this will affect game development as a whole.
 

Yuntu

Prophet of Regret
Member
Nov 7, 2019
10,667
Germany
I personally care more about art direction in games than anything else when it comes to visuals. For example I thought while impressive on a technical level that UE5 demo was visually kinda bland.

Moon Studios is a good example for this actually. You guys have insanely talented artists and your games dont push for realism but look better than most games on the market.

But a bit more on the content of your thread not just the general question being posed: I do kinda share your concern thinking about this more. And I do hope it wont happen like you predict, but I also admit you have way more insight into development than probably 99% of the people posting here so you have a way better grasp on how this will influence the industry.
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,833
This is a little oversimplified, but: The rise of photography in a lot of ways occasioned the rise of Impressionism in western painting. The ability for reality to be 'captured' by a photograph prompted traditionally-representative forms of art to reconsider their relationship to conventional measures of realism, and to attempt to capture the reality of a scene, a figure, an object, in ways autochthonous to their medium—to develop relationships to reality that were the product of their material circumstances (or limitations). I think you could make the argument that the course of the past century and a half of western art was set by this repudiation of staid ideas of realism.

Digital games have a complicated relationship to reality. A lot of designers and players are still bound up in the dream of the Holodeck. Personally, I am totally uninterested in UE-tech-demo-style "realism" in games, but I'm very excited for where a collective exhaustion with that sort of realism may propel games and designers.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,716
Paris
It's been an interesting couple of days to watch peoples reactions to the Unreal Engine 5 demo. It actually makes me somewhat concerned though. Let me explain:

One thing that most people don't understand is that you guys might be swooning over what might just become the new 'piss filter'. This UE5 demo is impressive looking for sure and I love that it made everyone excited for next gen. I just kinda hope that the new standard for games won't just by default be 'PBR + Scans'. The industry has been in dire need of some change of pace for some time now - If you look at the credits for games like Uncharted, etc., I'm sure everyone noticed the armies of people that had to be hired to make these environments look like that. And I'd say that at this point it was probably unsustainable to improve graphics even more without actually changing how we go about creating those envs.

The big change that Epic is proposing here is that artists won't have to deal with making their own assets anymore - Yeah, photogrammetry has been used before, but I think not to the extent that will be required to achieve these kinda visuals throughout an entire game. Achieving this ridiculous level of detail is probably only doable if you actually use scans. Right now the standard is that all this stuff is sculpted by hand - and I'd honestly say it'd be ridiculous trying to match that look without scans. It's doable (just as it's doable asking a painter to paint in a photorealistic manner...), but probably not economically viable, especially since Quixel and other companies are out there providing film and game studios with high quality scans that are cheaper than hiring highly talented digital artists.

The nice thing that you do get from the 'current workflow' inside most studios is that at least there's still some artistic touch to it. Once the majority of developers have figured out that to achieve these next-gen AAA visuals, you have to resort to a PBR+Scans workflow, I honestly fear that a lot of games will start looking very samey. Why? Cause everyone is using the same asset library and a PBR model on top. Yeah, some AAA studios might also at that point be out and about doing their own scans, but you really have to ask yourself: how much as an artist can you still influence how things are gonna look if that's the way you go about it? I mean, what tools do you have left at this point to make your game stand out visually from the rest? Play around with tonemapping and image effects? Whoop-dee-doo.

If everything Epic is touting turns out to be true, I think we'll see a lot of games that will look very, very similar to one another, cause the goal here is to get closer and closer to photorealism and the only economically viable way to get there is by adapting this kinda way of working. Looking at it in a very simplified way, at this point all you're doing as an environment artist would be slapping some scans into a scene over a blockout, maybe paint a little on top, adjust the lighting and you're good.

My point is: I think a lot of developers will feel forced to adapt this way of working due to the ever-increasing demands on graphics becoming more and more photorealistic. And here's Epic giving developers awesome new ways of getting there. That in itself is a good thing, having some games out there that look photorealistic is a good thing. My fear with all of this is that it'll become a new trend. I think we'll see many, many, many games being done in this exact same way and while we'll reach new heights in terms of detail and will inch closer and closer to photorealism, we'll also see artists losing control, because realism is the name of the game.

A similar thing to that actually happened before. With Animation. The games industry used to employ quite a lot of traditional keyframe animators. With the rise of motion capture though, we've seen keyframe animation become almost a thing of the past in games. And I think that's a shame, since keyframe animation can still provide such amazing results - But Motion Capture is comparatively cheap and 'looks more real, so it's the right tool for the job'.

I guess this is just a little word of warning and I hope I'm wrong about this, but I don't think I will be. You'll see a lot of games that get this distinct PBR+Scans look, cause it's 'cheap' and comparatively economically viable. And while we're all swooning today, will we not get tired of most games looking like that 3-4 years from now?

I'm not really worried for some reasons:

_It started already, i mean, most AAA games goes for some form of realism. For someone like me who prefers more stylized, surreal stuff, it's been somewhat of a bore. Except... more and more, the indie economy grew and we have tons of success (You know something about it) that are not AAA budget, and offer alternative aesthetic. I would even say that generation was maybe the most rich and diverse in term of visuals and narrative.
The more those AAA realistic titles become impossible to achieve, the more AA games will look for different ways, so we'll have, on PS5, even more than PS4, games with different aesthetic, different budget, 8 bit, 16 bit, 32 bit graphics, 2d, 3d etc.... The fact that the GTAs, the RDRs, the Uncharteds, the Gears of Wars.. will have to play the photo real game is not really a change for me. They were already doing that.

_And even then, once maybe you have less worry about how to create your real life rocks and trees and bricks etc.. Would you say movies have all the same look ? Yet they use the same real life form. It's all real life, but hey they have different stories, different colors, different cinematography, different locations, different actors, music, ideas... Also the "same assets" things from agame to an other game is nto a problem if we're talking super realistic style. Nature doesn't differentiate. If one game is going for a completely realistic look, and they have a pine tree somewhere, and that other game with also a completly realistic look as the same pine, they are just pine trees, i'm not going to notice.

_But finally i also think, the quixel thing and all that. hey have tools to edit your materials, i'm sure there are ways to stylize them, and to achieve super dense details with different type of rendering or aesthetic. And the tech doesn't mean photo real rock especially. If you can use zbrush models, that means you can use all sort of style artists use in zbrush. It's certainly not just realism. And not every zbrush model has to be ultra mega detailed for realism. You can use a stylized form and not create 8000 little details on top of it. And what i mean is, even that simpler Zbrush model, will look way better with that tech and no lods than any games this gen. You can benefit the tech with simpler style, i'm pretty sure.
 

eXistor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,274
Realism in games is the most boring thing; it all looks the same and familiar because it's reality.

In terms of graphical fidelity: it's the most useless goal to try and accomplish because it can only be as good as current technology allows.
 

JazzmanZ

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,365
I don't want realism.

Hollywood has ruined realism by making everything color coded or filtered to hell and back.
I prefer a Video game that has a unique art style to stand out and looks plenty colorful.
 

Figments

Spencer’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,292
California
I fear we're going into this gen with the possibility of a "Looks like a UE5 game" trend being set, much as the "Looks like a UE3 game" trend was set in Gen 7.
 

Deleted member 34714

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,617
I play games for fantasy settings and other shit I don't want to think about. What I hate is the recent push of emotional or random shock trailers to introduce games... whatever.
 

Sahand

Member
Oct 28, 2017
137
I don't care about realism! What I care most is attention to detail. Ori is a great example in that regard. It's just beautiful!
 

pagrab

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,005
People still travel even though travel agencies do not offer trips to different realities. People watch movies that take place in realistic settings and aren't bored with the visuals. I think that reality is varied enough for games not to look the same.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,558
YKSc9ey.jpg
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,485
I love every kind of art style, as long as it's beautiful.

But it's understandable that people want to see games that looks like real life on their new expensive machines.
 

seroun

Member
Oct 25, 2018
4,464
I am okay with photo-realism and I don't think improving toolsets for developers will suddenly make other styles disappear. Photorrealism is just a way of describing attention to detail or detailing. As other people have said above, you can do a non-realistic style in ZBrush and bring it over anyways, it's just from UE5 on the path will be much easier. I am not sure how that is pushing people towards realistic styles tbh.

Same way with movies, I don't think movies look similar to each other at all just because they are shot with a camera.
 

cjn83

Banned
Jul 25, 2018
284
You're completely missing the point here. Films are films, you're already recording the real world, so the output obviously looks real. Games at this point are more like paintings, they're an abstraction of the real world, even if some games already try to look realistic.

Once you use scans, PBR and GI, then yes, games might just look like 'any movie we've seen'.

No no, I understood your point - but I think you are missing a larger one.

The "problem" with the vast majority of games for me right now is that they're not made for adults. They don't look like paintings, they look like cartoons - and as such are often made as cartoons as well. By removing the necessity for this I at last hope the gaming industry will grow up, and that we'll get more authors interested, more directors interested when you can make content which has fewer limitations and no longer needs to have this directly cartoony feel to them.

And "need" is the key word. It's an enabling technology, and even when used one which will more than likely be merging realism with fantasy in the vast majority of titles for decades to come - like you saw in the UE5 demo. Photorealism also only lends itself well to certain types of games. Games like Ori for instance will more than likely be largely unaffected by that this technology has become available - and as in movie industry games where the director want a cartoony feel will of course continue to be made, and continue to be bought. The only thing which is changing is that we're starting to see a future where it no longer has to be that way by necessity.
 

TheRulingRing

Banned
Apr 6, 2018
5,713
I'm very excited.

I don't agree that chasing photorealism will make everything look the same - great art direction will allow games to stand out while still having "realistic" visuals.

To some extent the AAA studios might use asset libraries, but there will always be a requirement to stand out from the crowd to attract more sales, so I'm not gonna worry about them just reusing the same things.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
Even If that's true, different games will look different due to what devs want to achieve. Be it a horror mood a military setting or anything in between. Devs are smart, they will want to differentiate from other games look wise. Just because u use similar assets and technology doesn't mean the aesthetically will be similar.
Every single call of duty looks different in campaign mode despite those games trying to adhere so pseudo realistic look
Even last gen unreal engine games looked different in talented devs hands.

I know this forum has a biases against AAA realistic looks and think those games don't have artistry and fantastic art direction. But those people are just plain wrong
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,717
I'm pretty excited. I really enjoy realism style, but I also appreciate other approaches to game design.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
And while we're all swooning today, will we not get tired of most games looking like that 3-4 years from now?
I think certain games should look as realistic as possible like racing games for example and getting more power to achieve this goal in itself is good. But as you pointed out there are issues rising with this and imo your concern is warranted to some degree.

I think realistic looking games could look closer than ever, because games will use those assets. But I think there is still a place for different artstyle like Ori or Zelda games offer and people love these games.

I don't know if that's realistic to expect, but I think the interaction with the world and physics will play a part to differentiate the games, even if they look more close to each other.
 

MillionIII

Banned
Sep 11, 2018
6,816
This is a non issue, strong art direction can rival any slapped together assets. You can't scan half of the stuff in God of war for example, still looks amazing.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
You yourself OP should understand more than most how talented and creative AAA studios are. So I think it's weird how you have that issue thinking about next gen
 

DoradoWinston

Member
Apr 9, 2019
6,106
depends on the game at the end of the day. I dont want Cuphead, Ori, Mario etc to pick up a photo realistic style but I do want other games like say Hellblade 2 or The Last of Us Part 2 to be able to push the photo realism as far as possible since thats what the devs seem to be pushing.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,485
No no, I understood your point - but I think you are missing a larger one.

The "problem" with the vast majority of games for me right now is that they're not made for adults. They don't look like paintings, they look like cartoons - and as such are often made as cartoons as well. By removing the necessity for this I at last hope the gaming industry will grow up, and that we'll get more authors interested, more directors interested when you can make content which has fewer limitations and no longer needs to have this directly cartoony feel to them.

And "need" is the key word. It's an enabling technology, and even when used one which will more than likely be merging realism with fantasy in the vast majority of titles for decades to come - like you saw in the UE5 demo. Photorealism also only lends itself well to certain types of games. Games like Ori for instance will more than likely be largely unaffected by that this technology has become available - and as in movie industry games where the director want a cartoony feel will of course continue to be made, and continue to be bought. The only thing which is changing is that we're starting to see a future where it no longer has to be that way by necessity.

Children are a huge part of gamers and they often make a game a beast like Minecraft or Fortnite, I don't think devs will stop to target them.
 

SkoomaBlade

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,052
I'm pretty excited for it to be honesty but I understand the issue your putting forth OP. For me, realistic graphics are great when the games are trying to portray a realistic "activity" (if you will) such as a modern military war shooter like Modern Warfare or a racing game like GT Sport. That being said, I don't think there is any shortage of games coming out either now or in the future that opt to go more stylized art styles.

I do take issue with claim that gamers are constantly asking for/expecting more and more realistic graphics as time goes on. It something that's been thrown around forever and it hasn't really held up. Just looking at some basic metrics, nearly all of the most currently popular games in the world have stylized art styles: CS:GO, League of Legends, Fortnight, DOTA 2, WoW, Minecraft, Nintendo 1st party. People will flock to good games even if they don't stand out all that much in a the graphically demanding sense. Take Valorant for example, just the beta hyped up people beyond belief and will probably end up being one of the most played games at full release but the maxed out graphics setting looks like some from the low-end of last gen. I could be misremembering but I think I read somewhere that Valorant doesn't even have any shaders outside of the 1st person view gun model.
 

captainpat

Member
Nov 15, 2017
877
Surprised there's still a lot of pressure for that style when stuff like fortnite and overwatch are making billions with super cartoony styles.
 

Cogigo

Member
Mar 16, 2020
12
I'm excited for UE5 because of no pop in LOD stuff. I also think that some people are sleeping on ray traced lightning. Minecraft RTX looks damn amazing and is a stilized game. I don´t really care for photorealism but the tools UE5 seem to come with are outstanding. Like dumping your high poly model directly into the game without LOD models. Hell yeah. More time for other stuff.

But I get what you are trying to say Thomas. I guess your ARPG will have a crazy artstil and stuff but don´t you think that the non LOD stuff and raytraced light wouldn´t help your artists in that kind of game too?

Edit: Thats a serious question. I would really like to know what you think of these features.
 
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