How do you feel about the notion that Bruce Wayne is the mask?

[DragonSJG]

One topic of discussion that emerges in the Batman mythos is that Batman is the true personality while Bruce Wayne is the mask. This comes up in the TAS where when he is in private, he uses his Batman voice compared to a more normal sounding voice around the general public. It also led to this great scene in Batman Beyond



So how do you feel about this notion and its influence on that Batman mythos?

 

[darz1]

It's dumb. It's pretty much an exact copy of the whole "Clarke Kent is the false identity" shit.

Bruce is Batman and Batman is Bruce. There are the same person

 

[Grapezard]

The way you act around your parents is different than the way you act around your friends which is different than the way you act around strangers.
They're all equally you.

 

[Lulu]

It's really deep bro

 

[Saturday]

It's a good point to make to delve a little deeper into Bat's psyche, but it only works with like year 1 where Bats is solely concentrating on his work and not like year 7 Bats where he has plenty of contact with other people

 

[Volimar]

It's dumb. It's pretty much an exact copy of the whole "Clarke Kent is the false identity" shit.

Bruce is Batman and Batman is Bruce. There are the same person

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Different creative minds behind Superman have gone in both directions, but it never made sense that Clark was the mask. Everything that makes up his personal morality came from his human parents. Lois and Clark said it best. Clark is who he is, Superman is what he can do.

Contrast with Bruce where it makes a lot more sense. He's trained to be what would eventually become Batman since his parents died. Billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne was never him.

 

[Joni]

It is the only proper way to do it. 'Bruce Wayne' would never be Batman, which billionaire playboy would do Batman so continuously if Batman is his true personality? Batman being his true personality makes a lot more sense.

 

[Deleted member 4461]

Different creative minds behind Superman have gone in both directions, but it never made sense that Clark was the mask. Everything that makes up his personal morality came from his human parents. Lois and Clark said it best. Clark is who he is, Superman is what he can do.

Contrast with Bruce where it makes a lot more sense. He's trained to be what would eventually become Batman since his parents died. Billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne was never him.

Click to shrink...

This one. Bruce has no interest in that playboy persona he puts on. That one is literally a facade, moreso than other superheroes.

 

[DeathyBoy]

Different creative minds behind Superman have gone in both directions, but it never made sense that Clark was the mask. Everything that makes up his personal morality came from his human parents. Lois and Clark said it best. Clark is who he is, Superman is what he can do.

Contrast with Bruce where it makes a lot more sense. He's trained to be what would eventually become Batman since his parents died. Billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne was never him.

Click to shrink...

Clark and Superman are both masks though, they're both half of who he really is, the human and the superhero. Karl-El is who he really is. When he's with his friends and family and doesn't have to pretend to be a bumbling journalist or be Earth's saviour, that's the real guy. Like who you are at work isn't you, it's a persona you present to the world. The real you is the person who drops all pretences.

Same with Batman. The real Bruce Wayne is the guy who secretly funds shit to improve Gotham and adopted Dick/is raising Damien. He has a compulsion for fighting supervillains, but I've never gotten the sense he particularly enjoys it,

 

[grand]

It's a simple fact. Only 60s Batman was actually Bruce Wayne. Every other interpretation has it as an act at best.

 

[TheMadTitan]

It's dumb. It's pretty much an exact copy of the whole "Clarke Kent is the false identity" shit.

Bruce is Batman and Batman is Bruce. There are the same person

Click to shrink...

Clark Kent isn't the false identity, but it is a false identity.

The Clark Kent that's presented to the general public is not the Clark Kent presented to close friends and family. And neither Clark Kents are the same as the Superman presented to the public, though private Clark overlaps it.

Public Bruce Wayne is a facade entirely because Bruce isn't an airhead who fucks all day and drinks a lot. Private Bruce and Batman are indistinguishable from one another.

Yeah, they're literally the same person, but by saying that, you're discounting the personas people put on in various scenarios. You're you, but the way you present to your boss, your friends, and your coworkers likely have modifiers attached. Likewise with me in those same scenarios and the customers I encounter on a daily basis. Yeah, they all see me, but most of them see a heavily performative version that isn't really indicative of who I am outside of a specialized and specific scenario.

That's where the Clark/Supes & Bruce/Bats stuff comes from.

 

[Chained Prometheus]

One topic of discussion that emerges in the Batman mythos is that Batman is the true personality while Bruce Wayne is the mask. This comes up in the TAS where when he is in private, he uses his Batman voice compared to a more normal sounding voice around the general public. It also led to this great scene in Batman Beyond



So how do you feel about this notion and its influence on that Batman mythos?

Click to shrink...

It's one of the weaker takes on Batman as a character IMO... and in fact, I would argue it's the lie that Bruce wants to believe in about himself. He'd much rather just be Batman than truly still be Bruce Wayne, I think. But that's an argument for another time.

In reality, there's essentially three main personas that typically exist for Batman;

​

- Billionaire Playboy Bruce Wayne​

- True Bruce Wayne​

- The Batman​

​

Billionaire Playboy Bruce is very obviously a facade. However, while the Batman might be closer to being a real thing than the Playboy, it's closer to being more of an avatar or a specific, heightened part of Bruce's persona rather than being the End All, Be All of his true self.

The True Bruce is the one we see in private, typically at Wayne Manor or the Batcave interacting with Alfred or the Batfamily. IMO True Bruce often tends to 'slide' back and forth between himself and the Batman persona, often getting overly consumed by that side of himself when left unchecked. The plot hole of the idea that Bruce Wayne "died" alongside his parents and Batman was spiritually born in Crime Alley is that Bruce's whole motivation for becoming Batman is driven by his very clear demonstration of suffering from PTSD.

As for that particular scene and the DCAU Bruce Wayne/Batman- I'd argue that the early seasons of BTAS demonstrate that Bruce was at one point a separate individual from the Batman persona. He's notably warmer and shows a bit more compassion to a number of the Rogues Gallery villains he fights. But by the time we get to The New Adventures of Batman, Batman obviously has grown colder and harsher, as seen by Nightwing heading off on his own in-between seasons and Bruce suddenly now only ever uses his "Batman" voice.

IMO DCAU Bruce was successfully able to allow himself to grow entirely consumed by the Batman persona overtime, to the point where he just calls himself "Batman" in his mind, even as an old man in Batman Beyond.

 

[darz1]

Clark Kent isn't the false identity, but it is a false identity.

The Clark Kent that's presented to the general public is not the Clark Kent presented to close friends and family. And neither Clark Kents are the same as the Superman presented to the public, though private Clark overlaps it.

Public Bruce Wayne is a facade entirely because Bruce isn't an airhead who fucks all day and drinks a lot. Private Bruce and Batman are indistinguishable from one another.

Yeah, they're literally the same person, but by saying that, you're discounting the personas people put on in various scenarios. You're you, but the way you present to your boss, your friends, and your coworkers likely have modifiers attached. Likewise with me in those same scenarios and the customers I encounter on a daily basis. Yeah, they all see me, but most of them see a heavily performative version that isn't really indicative of who I am outside of a specialized and specific scenario.

That's where the Clark/Supes & Bruce/Bats stuff comes from.

Click to shrink...

Yes and no.

the Bats/Bruce stuff is what we all do when we put on our public face vs our private self. With Supes his public face is so far removed from his super human self, he stopped being "Clark" a long time ago. "Clark" is a bumbling physically inept coward who has bad eye sight, Supes is superhuman, can fly, super fast, super strong, has x ray vision.

Bruce is a mysterious millionaire playboy, Batman is his crime fighting night life. Bruce couldn't be Batman without his cash Or his childhood trauma. No gadgets, no bat mobile, no bat cave. He needs to keep both personalities going. He is a complex man but at no time stopped being Bruce Wayne.

Supes would still be a superhuman alien without his country upbringing. He would still have super powers and the fortress of solitude. He can still be Superman without being Clark Kent. He doesn't need to be Clark anymore but he chooses to

 

[Unknownlight]

Well, this is what Wonder Woman, Superman, and Batman said their names were when holding the lasso of truth.

 

[Septimus Prime]

The way you act around your parents is different than the way you act around your friends which is different than the way you act around strangers.
They're all equally you.

Click to shrink...

Okay, but you probably aren't also Batman.

 

[Keldroc]

Okay, but you probably aren't also Batman.

Click to shrink...

Have you ever seen him and Batman in the same room together?

 

[gforguava]

The comically vapid "playboy" Bruce Wayne persona and the Batman persona are both acts that serve different purposes, the "real" person is the character you are following when you actually read a Batman comic. I don't know how anyone can read one and come out thinking that the guy threatening criminals by hanging them off building is the "real" guy when you then see him talking to Alfred or Dick or anyone else who actually knows him.

It is a stupid idea that doesn't hold up to any real scrutiny and it is continually propagated by fools trying to add ridiculous realism to a guy who dresses like a Bat and has a Bat car and a Bat secret lair.

 

[TheMadTitan]

Yes and no.

the Bats/Bruce stuff is what we all do when we put on our public face vs our private self. With Supes his public face is so far removed from his super human self, he stopped being "Clark" a long time ago. "Clark" is a bumbling physically inept coward who has bad eye sight, Supes is superhuman, can fly, super fast, super strong, has x ray vision.

Bruce is a mysterious millionaire playboy, Batman is his crime fighting night life. Bruce couldn't be Batman without his cash Or his childhood trauma. No gadgets, no bat mobile, no bat cave. He needs to keep both personalities going. He is a complex man but at no time stopped being Bruce Wayne.

Supes would still be a superhuman alien without his country upbringing. He would still have super powers and the fortress of solitude. He can still be Superman without being Clark Kent. He doesn't need to be Clark anymore but he chooses to

Click to shrink...

Clark isn't a bumbling physically inept coward. He's clumsy and reserved. He literally wouldn't have a career as an investigative journalist --something he often does without relying on his powers-- if he were a bumbling coward. Doesn't compute.

The basis of the Superman persona is lifted from the Clark persona. This isn't a Peter/Spider-Man situation where Spider-Man makes jokes and is constantly flippant toward anyone he fights. Superman is just authoritative with an aura of confidence and compassion. Clark would be Superman if he didn't have to use that inflated archetype to hide the fact that he's an alien with superpowers derived from the sun. Strip him of the strength, heat vision, and so on, nothing changes.

Strip the upbringing, you remove the Fortress. Strip Clark Kent, you lose the foundation of Superman.

Bruce at no point needs to keep both personalities going. He could've easily went off to just be a billionaire recluse who gets heaps of money from Lucius Fox running Wayne Enterprises and been a public asshole while Batman is the ninja asshole. Bruce exists to throw the scent off the trail, but it's not necessary for the formula.

But what's necessary and not necessary isn't really the point.

 

[Grapezard]

Okay, but you probably aren't also Batman.

Click to shrink...

Well yeah, because it's a comparison. A "true personality" is a dumb trope and the dude doesn't have dissociative identity disorder, as far as I know. Batman is Bruce Wayne, mask metaphor or not.

 

[TheMadTitan]

Well, this is what Wonder Woman, Superman, and Batman said their names were when holding the lasso of truth.

Click to shrink...

This was early in their crime fighting history. They didn't even know each other yet, so of course Bruce isn't going to trust them enough to tell them who he is.

 

[Soj]

They're both masks. The real Bruce is the person he is with his family.

 

[Silver-Streak]

This was early in their crime fighting history. They didn't even know each other yet, so of course Bruce isn't going to trust them enough to tell them who he is.

Click to shrink...

Batman doesn't get a choice with the lasso of truth. Not even Apokalips gets a choice.

As far as the question in the OP:

Bruce Wayne, the playboy, is a mask.
Batman, the crimefighter, is a mask.
Bruce Wayne when alone with Alfred and the Batfamily, is much closer to Batman the crime fighter, but not the same. This is the real Bruce.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

This was early in their crime fighting history. They didn't even know each other yet, so of course Bruce isn't going to trust them enough to tell them who he is.

Click to shrink...

How would he hide his identity from Superman's vision?

 

[MadLaughter]

Batman doesn't get a choice with the lasso of truth. Not even Apokalips gets a choice.

As far as the question in the OP:

Bruce Wayne, the playboy, is a mask.
Batman, the crimefighter, is a mask.
Bruce Wayne when alone with Alfred and the Batfamily, is much closer to Batman the crime fighter, but not the same. This is the real bruce.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, this. He has to put on a show when he's playing a billionaire, and he also has to put on a show when fighting crime. The real dude is the guy in the batcave with his family.

 

[TheMadTitan]

How would he hide his identity from Superman's vision?

Click to shrink...

Beside the fact that they knew each other and would've been aware of each others powers and abilities even though they didn't know each others real names and he would've needed something in his mask to prevent X-Ray imagery from peering through his gear in general; Superman isn't the type of asshole to just X-Ray vision through everything on a whim.

 

[TheMadTitan]

Batman doesn't get a choice with the lasso of truth. Not even Apokalips gets a choice.

Click to shrink...

He didn't tell a lie, so he's not defying the rope.

 

[Richter1887]

The Telltale series was all about this subject and they did a good job with it.

Bruce when he is at home with his family and friends is the "true self". It is a mix between Batman and Playboy.

 

[Volimar]

Batman doesn't get a choice with the lasso of truth. Not even Apokalips gets a choice.

As far as the question in the OP:

Bruce Wayne, the playboy, is a mask.
Batman, the crimefighter, is a mask.
Bruce Wayne when alone with Alfred and the Batfamily, is much closer to Batman the crime fighter, but not the same. This is the real Bruce.

Click to shrink...

This is pretty much it. Like farm Clark and Daily Planet Clark aren't the same.

 

[Kurtikeya]

Boring. The Batman character is almost always super psychoanalyzed and it sucks when the end result is just a binary twinning of Batman/Joker, Batman/Bruce, or something like Batman/Hush, with Hush blatantly being positioned to be a dark mirror of Bruce, from his backstory to his literal fucking face.

Batman has an abundance of selves/masks. Superman is a mask of him. The Bat-Family is a mask of him. His rogues gallery is a mask of him. There's no one true mask.

 

[darz1]

Clark isn't a bumbling physically inept coward. He's clumsy and reserved. He literally wouldn't have a career as an investigative journalist --something he often does without relying on his powers-- if he were a bumbling coward. Doesn't compute.

The basis of the Superman persona is lifted from the Clark persona. This isn't a Peter/Spider-Man situation where Spider-Man makes jokes and is constantly flippant toward anyone he fights. Superman is just authoritative with an aura of confidence and compassion. Clark would be Superman if he didn't have to use that inflated archetype to hide the fact that he's an alien with superpowers derived from the sun. Strip him of the strength, heat vision, and so on, nothing changes.

Strip the upbringing, you remove the Fortress. Strip Clark Kent, you lose the foundation of Superman.

Bruce at no point needs to keep both personalities going. He could've easily went off to just be a billionaire recluse who gets heaps of money from Lucius Fox running Wayne Enterprises and been a public asshole while Batman is the ninja asshole. Bruce exists to throw the scent off the trail, but it's not necessary for the formula.

But what's necessary and not necessary isn't really the point.

Click to shrink...

What? Strip superman of the superpowers and he is no longer superman, just a regular man. Yes his morals come from his upbringing as Clark Kent, but he isn't who Clark Kent is. Clark Kent is not an alien. Once he embraces being Superman, Clark Kent Just becomes an idea that he maintains so he can experience a normal life. But it's a fake persona.

Bruce on the other hand is who Batman is. He actually is a millionaire, he actually does run Wayne Enterprises. Even if he was a recluse he would still be Bruce. Sure his playboy persona isn't who he really is, but that's just a public persona.

 

[Charred Knight]

If you look at Batman and his rich history, the excellent cast that make up Gotham, and the rest of the Batfamily and come to the conclusion that his some nut wearing a bat costume than that's a really boring way to look at the character.

 

[Deleted member 4461]

What? Strip superman of the superpowers and he is no longer superman, just a regular man. Yes his morals come from his upbringing as Clark Kent, but he isn't who Clark Kent is. Clark Kent is not an alien. Once he embraces being Superman, Clark Kent Just becomes an idea that he maintains so he can experience a normal life. But it's a fake persona.

Bruce on the other hand is who Batman is. He actually is a millionaire, he actually does run Wayne Enterprises. Even if he was a recluse he would still be Bruce. Sure his playboy persona isn't who he really is, but that's just a public persona.

Click to shrink...

I think how you're defining these identities is different from the person you're replying to. You seem like you're making an almost literal argument.

Like, yes, Bruce Wayne is literally Batman. But the point they're making is that the "Bruce Wayne" identity was compromised since he was 8 years old. His true personality is the obsessive dude who puts everything into fighting crime. Some of that requires literally putting on the cowl, and some of that is done around trusted friends & allies.

But the "Bruce Wayne" the public knows, the heir to the Wayne fortune, the airheaded playboy? That doesn't actually exist.

When his cowl is on, it's basically his regular personality taken up a notch to frighten criminals.

And that's closer to most normal superhero secret identities.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

It also led to this great scene in Batman Beyond



So how do you feel about this notion and its influence on that Batman mythos?

Click to shrink...

That makes no sense. He was born as Bruce Wayne, not Batman!

Also, does that mean he consider Terry a fake?

 

[excelsiorlef]

It's definitely true in the Nolan trilogy

 

[Khanimus]

Kinda falls apart when he's open and honest with Alfred and whatever allies show up in the cave when he's not in costume.

"Uhhh... actually there are three identities."

 

[Pyccko]

I'm a big fan of the "Bruce Wayne is just as mentally ill as all his villains" school of Batman

 

[Normanski 2.0]

To me Bruce has three personas: Batman who is his anger and rage, Bruce Wayne the playboy and the young Bruce who never really left crime alley that fateful night. All of them are Bruce.

I love it personally, I think it's what Batman one of the greatest characters of all time.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

It's definitely true in the Nolan trilogy

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I think that explains a lot of these interpretations. Nolan believed Bruce Wayne was just a cover story to throw people off his true identity as Batman.

The Justice League interpretation is more accurate, though. He is both Bruce Wayne and Batman, one minute beating up criminals in an alley and the other buying banks so his friend's mother doesn't lose her home. He's still the same guy regardless of what outfit he's wearing, but each has their own benefits.

There are places Bruce Wayne can get into that Batman can't and there are things Batman can do that Bruce Wayne can't.

 

[Transistor]

Batman doesn't get a choice with the lasso of truth. Not even Apokalips gets a choice.

As far as the question in the OP:

Bruce Wayne, the playboy, is a mask.
Batman, the crimefighter, is a mask.
Bruce Wayne when alone with Alfred and the Batfamily, is much closer to Batman the crime fighter, but not the same. This is the real Bruce.

Click to shrink...

This is how I take it, too.

Although, I could see it tipping towards Batman being his persona more and more as time goes on and it becomes more of his life.

 

[RetroMG]

It blew my mind when I was a teenager. Same with the "Clark Kent is the mask that Superman wears" thing.
But we all wear masks constantly to change who we are, even to ourselves. It's not really a big deal.

 

[Tavernade]

Billionaire Playboy Bruce is 100% a mask, and when out fighting crime he is putting on a bit of a character to scare criminals.

Real Batman is when he's in the costume in the cave. It's the only time he's not pretending to be someone else.

 

[BossAttack]

The way you act around your parents is different than the way you act around your friends which is different than the way you act around strangers.
They're all equally you.

Click to shrink...

This.

The "real" Batman, if there is such a thing, is the dude who hangs around the BatFamily.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

The real Bruce died when his parents were murdered.

Everything else is a mask on a broken man.

 

[Luigi87]

Kinda falls apart when he's open and honest with Alfred and whatever allies show up in the cave when he's not in costume.

"Uhhh... actually there are three identities."

Click to shrink...

And a Joker for each one!

 

[Deleted member 11370]

I think that Bruce is the mask in the sense that since his parents were killed, his life as Bruce Wayne was over. "The mission" was his sole motivator: avenging his parents by erasing crime. Everything he does is to advance the success of The Mission, and "Bruce Wayne", the person, has become a secondary or tertiary concern. "Bruce Wayne" is a convenient façade that can be used as a resource for The Mission. But in that sense, Batman is also a mask, a means to an end. Bruce, Batman, and everything surrounding them are tools to further The Mission.

That's why legacy has been so important to they Batman mythos in recent years: Prodigal, Beyond, Batman & Robin, Snyder's body clones, etc. It's all about securing and ensuring the success of The Mission.

Alternatively, you can see him being Batman and not Bruce Wayne (and not the other way around) because Batman is a product of The Mission, while Bruce Wayne is a product of... well, his parents. He cannot live a life as Bruce Wayne because the "real" Bruce died in that alley. He is Batman in the sense that is a vessel for The Mission.

 

[RBH]

I thought Jim Carrey was the mask

 

[SpotAnime]

This is how I felt when watching Batman Forever,

Spoiler

during the scene at the circus when Bruce shouts out "I'm Batman" but no one can hear him over the chaos. And of course, that was always Schumacher's intent, as symbolism of repressed homosexuality.

.

 

[Platy]

Playboy Bruce Wayne is the biggest mask

Bruce dressed as batman without the cowl is the real Bruce wayne

Full batman is a mask but a smaller one

 

[HStallion]

I'd argue that both Bruce Wayne and Batman are different facades worn for very different reasons and the real "Bruce" is that little boy who never ever got over the murder of his parents. Both Bruce Wayne the aloof billionaire playboy and the Dark Knight are used to shield and reflect very different aspects of the real person that is hidden from nearly everyone, even many of his own Bat family. Bruce Wayne is the human side of Bruce with the foibles and the charisma that allows him to move easily enough through social situations he either doesn't care for or is even uncomfortable with while The Batman is the mask that portrays his darker side, his rage, his loneliness and of course his quest for justice and is for those situations where the blackness in his soul is needed to come to the fore. Neither one is him fully but they're both different aspects of the real person that Bruce rarely ever shows the world.

 

[NeonZ]

As far as the "Clark is a mask" take goes, people seem to forget that for 30 years, from the late 50s to the reboot in the 80s, Superman got a new origin where he actually was around 3 years old when Krypton was destroyed and actually remembered it due to his evolved brain. During this phase from the start Clark was a mask, even while still a child in Smallville (picking up glasses when he started going to town rather than staying in the farm). The only place where he felt he truly belonged was when teaming up with the super powered teenagers from 1000 years in the future (the legion of super heroes). This even comes up later on when the New Gods are introduced. He actually thought New Genesis was a paradise due to everyone there being a super powered god that made him look like just another one of them, and only left due to a sense of duty to Earth, but the narrative clearly was written with the idea he'd be happier and fit in living there.
Of course, both before and after that phase that take doesn't work, but it was something that lasted for a long time and influenced many stories, which is why some people still follow that take.