How do we send SNK the message that they need to let Code Mystics manage the netcode of each of their future releases?

[b00_thegh0st]

I've been playing a lot of Samurai Shodown lately, namely 2019 and V special.

I really dig their last year effort. It's easy on the execution (2 button presses are a lot more lenient than they used to be) while maintaining most of the depth of the previous titles (barring meditation and some mobility options). It's a great fighting game you can hop into quickly but still emphasises mind game. Probably my favourite fighter of the gen.

And yet it provides only delay based netcode which means more than its share of laggy matches and a rapidly shrinking online community. I get that people with very efficient network connections may prefer delay based net code as it doesn't induce the strangeness that sometimes comes out of rollback.

But still, anyone who played Code Mystics ports of MotM or SSV Special knows that they're handed the best of both worlds. You can choose to opt in for rollback and enjoy matches with opponents across the world in very tolerable conditions or configure the game to be strictly delay based if you so choose. It's basically the perfect solution, tried and tested, and SNK knows it since they advertised it when the rollback patches released for these 2 titles.

So how do we let them know they need to adopt it for every of their next gen releases?

 

[grand]

A strongly worded letter addressed to the Assistant of the CEO

 

[Jaded Alyx]

I don't think we need to worry about SNK anymore. If you've been paying attention to Oda, it seems like they're well aware.

I could be wrong of course.

I'm personally more concerned about Namco.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

the strangeness that sometimes comes out of rollback.

Click to shrink...

Also that shouldn't really happen if it's done well.

 

[Burning Kasshu]

I mean I think the message has already been delivered at this point. From twitter to snk discords, the number one thing always mentioned is netcode (well that and PC port but that's a whole other topic.) There CM is an english speaker and has most definitely relayed it to the SNK team. The ball is in there court to implement it.

 

[Skunk]

But still, anyone who played Code Mystics ports of MotM or SSV Special knows that they're handed the best of both worlds.

Click to shrink...

WHAT?!? Where, when, for what?

 

[Burning Kasshu]

WHAT?!? Where, when, for what?

Click to shrink...

He meant MotW (Mark of the Wolves)

 

[b00_thegh0st]

WHAT?!? Where, when, for what?

Click to shrink...

Hahaha sorry about that. I meant Garou obviously, but I'd be all over a Match of the Millenium port. Also SNK, please let me buy that SS!2 port you're sitting on!

 

[tzare]

My question is, if this netcode is so much better, why almost no one is using it.

 

[Don Fluffles]

Nag them on Twitter and official communication channels en mass until they cooperate.

 

[2shd]

My question is, if this netcode is so much better, why almost no one is using it.

Click to shrink...

Fair question, but don't preemptively judge the quality by the slow uptake in its use.
There's a learning curve, it's hard to retrofit modern games with it - games are best built around it. A lot of games are developed in Japan where due to the smaller geographical area delay is "good enough", developers set in their ways, etc.
There was a recent thread that covered many of the reasons why in more detail and others probably summarized better:

[Polygon] Bad netcode is killing many of your favorite fighting games

https://www.polygon.com/2020/3/25/21192522/netcode-samurai-showdown-fighting-games-rollback-delay I know this is a preaching to the choir sort of deal but still a good discussion to keep going, doubly so in the wake of GG Strive getting rollback. Obviously didn't want to copy over the...

www.resetera.com

 

[Kewlmyc]

Yeah, I'll be shocked if we don't see SNK embracing rollback in the future.

As Max has said and many people have agreed, Bandai Namco is the final boss.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

My question is, if this netcode is so much better, why almost no one is using it.

Click to shrink...

The majority of fighting games released are using it. The problem is with the few holdouts from Japan, that happen to make some of the bigger games in the genre.

Every Western fighting game uses it, every Capcom fighting game uses it.

 

[Deleted member 5621]

They have an official Discord and one of the community managers does multiple streams regularly, including some with devs where you can send questions. Go for it.

 

[tzare]

Fair question, but don't preemptively judge the quality by the slow uptake in its use.
There's a learning curve, it's hard to retrofit modern games with it - games are best built around it. A lot of games are developed in Japan where due to the smaller geographical area delay is "good enough", developers set in their ways, etc.
There was a recent thread that covered many of the reasons why in more detail and others probably summarized better:

[Polygon] Bad netcode is killing many of your favorite fighting games

https://www.polygon.com/2020/3/25/21192522/netcode-samurai-showdown-fighting-games-rollback-delay I know this is a preaching to the choir sort of deal but still a good discussion to keep going, doubly so in the wake of GG Strive getting rollback. Obviously didn't want to copy over the...

www.resetera.com

Click to shrink...

But some of the bigger games seem that have better sales outside Japan, unless it is something tied to tradition.
And this kind of code has been around for ages... I remember playing emulators with ggpo long ago

 

[crimzonflame]

Dont we a have a user here who works for SNK?

 

[Taco_Human]

There's an official SNK discord where some employees talk. Start talking in there if you like SNK stuff.

 

[donkey]

Paging MistaTwo

 

[2shd]

But some of the bigger games seem that have better sales outside Japan, unless it is something tied to tradition.
And this kind of code has been around for ages... I remember playing emulators with ggpo long ago

Click to shrink...

I think there may also be/have been a language barrier with the available documentation. It think it's only been in recent years that developers have started doing presentations about it too.

 

[tzare]

The majority of fighting games released are using it. The problem is with the few holdouts from Japan, that happen to make some of the bigger games in the genre.

Every Western fighting game uses it, every Capcom fighting game uses it.

Click to shrink...

I thought SFV didn't use it, at least at launch. And most popular ones, japanese based most of the time, don't

 

[2shd]

I thought SFV didn't use it, at least at launch. And most popular ones, japanese based most of the time, don't

Click to shrink...

SFV has always had rollback, but their implementation in the game had/has major issues for whatever reason.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

I thought SFV didn't use it, at least at launch. And most popular ones, japanese based most of the time, don't

Click to shrink...

SFV always did. Just as Street Fighter x Tekken did before it, and Marvel did after. Capcom embraced rollback a long time ago.

And that's as I said, it's a few companies from Japan that unfortunately tend to make a number of the more well known games, namely Namco with Smash, tekken, and soulcalibur; SNK with SamSho and KoF, and ArcSys with DBFZ, BB, GB, and GG. Now that ArcSys has decided to use it with Strive, that leaves 2 major Japanese fighting game devs, assuming you consider SNK to be major.

 

[2shd]

I don't think we need to worry about SNK anymore. If you've been paying attention to Oda, it seems like they're well aware.

I could be wrong of course.

I'm personally more concerned about Namco.

Click to shrink...

I'm still nervous about the next KOF, honestly.

 

[Jaded Alyx]

I'm still nervous about the next KOF, honestly.

Click to shrink...

I have my fingers crossed but I'm much more relaxed about it than I was several months ago.

 

[rawhide]

I thought SFV didn't use it, at least at launch. And most popular ones, japanese based most of the time, don't

Click to shrink...

SFV absolutely uses rollback and has from day one, it's their own code they call "Kagemusha". This stuff ain't magic, they can still fuck it up.

But some of the bigger games seem that have better sales outside Japan, unless it is something tied to tradition.
And this kind of code has been around for ages... I remember playing emulators with ggpo long ago

Click to shrink...

All the big pioneers in commercial fighting games using rollback netcode have come from the west: not just games like Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct and Skullgirls but also digital re-releases of older games from Capcom and other companies.

Japanese companies don't prioritise rollback because a) it's a big engineering expense that's extremely difficult to retrofit into existing projects, and b) the necessity for different netcode isn't as apparent in Japan, where the internet's very fast and everybody's very close together. There's also some resistance against licensing GGPO or other existing solutions in favor of rolling their own solutions, and we can see how well that worked for SFV.

 

[tzare]

Oh thanks! I had the impression that almost nobody used it and sfvv wasn't either.
Hopefully snk follows the path

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Oh thanks! I had the impression that almost nobody used it and sfvv wasn't either.
Hopefully snk follows the path

Click to shrink...

Every Western developer from the Indies to NetherRealm have been using Rollback for years.

Capcom are the only Japanese company that included Rollback from the very start into SFV and MvCI.

SnK outsource Code Mystic to put Rollback into their old games but they still release the new SamSho with delay base netcode.

 

[b00_thegh0st]

They have an official Discord and one of the community managers does multiple streams regularly, including some with devs where you can send questions. Go for it.

Click to shrink...

There's an official SNK discord where some employees talk. Start talking in there if you like SNK stuff.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for the advice. I'll look into that!

 

[Saikyo]

Lol you guys tagging mistatwo, I remember his stance pretty well "I dont see kof97gm selling millions after patching rollback so why bother?".

 

[Deleted member 5621]

Lol you guys tagging mistatwo, I remember his stance pretty well "I dont see kof97gm selling millions after patching rollback so why bother?".

Click to shrink...

But then MOTW happened, sooooooo.........

 

[MufausaThe3rd]

I've been playing a lot of Samurai Shodown lately, namely 2019 and V special.

I really dig their last year effort. It's easy on the execution (2 button presses are a lot more lenient than they used to be) while maintaining most of the depth of the previous titles (barring meditation and some mobility options). It's a great fighting game you can hop into quickly but still emphasises mind game. Probably my favourite fighter of the gen.

And yet it provides only delay based netcode which means more than its share of laggy matches and a rapidly shrinking online community. I get that people with very efficient network connections may prefer delay based net code as it doesn't induce the strangeness that sometimes comes out of rollback.

But still, anyone who played Code Mystics ports of MotM or SSV Special knows that they're handed the best of both worlds. You can choose to opt in for rollback and enjoy matches with opponents across the world in very tolerable conditions or configure the game to be strictly delay based if you so choose. It's basically the perfect solution, tried and tested, and SNK knows it since they advertised it when the rollback patches released for these 2 titles.

So how do we let them know they need to adopt it for every of their next gen releases?

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't worry about it at all for all of their future games. Their community manager KrispyKaiser is a cool dude who has been doing a great job relaying info between Code Mystics and SNK dev team.

KOFXV will be their first mainline title to change this up.

 

[MistaTwo]

Lol you guys tagging mistatwo, I remember his stance pretty well "I dont see kof97gm selling millions after patching rollback so why bother?".

Click to shrink...

This is a great example of why I usually just avoid SNK threads...
That is a very poor paraphrasing of what I said, so here is the original thread so you can maybe jog your memory a bit:

GGPO (rollback netcode) SDK now Open Source under MIT License

Just real talk but the best way to do this is to spread the word about when we do add rollback and support those releases. Our recent Code Mystics releases (KOF 97 and SamSho V Special) on Steam and PS4 being the only real examples for SNK. They have almost everything that a FGC user could...

www.resetera.com

I feel like I presented my points fairly clearly without being snarky with some 'why bother' mentality, but please feel free to point out what part of my responses you actually take issue with.

In fact the only person with that attitude in that thread was the one FGC member telling me they weren't going to bother spending $10 on an old game because they didn't believe me that sales numbers matter to the decision makers.

Supporting the kind of products you want with your wallet is going to do a lot more to convince the decision makers than just tweeting at our CM or complaining on a message board. Talk is cheap as the saying goes...

My entire point is that instead of constantly embracing the negativity and bashing ____ game's netcode, being positive and supporting the smaller releases we have would give me more actionable data to convince the decision makers.

So my answer to the OP would still be the same as the previous thread. Just do whatever you can to build the community around the code mystics games. The recent surge in Killer Instinct activity is a great example of what a positive movement in the community can achieve.

It honestly still kinda boggles my mind that SamSho V Special on Steam isn't an absolute beast in terms of player numbers. I thought that one was a pretty easy home run.

 

[Mars People]

Just as important as Rollback the games need crossplay.
Watching the player base of a lot of these recent segmented games dwindle, is sad.