How come there's no game developer union or union for the people that work for these AAA game companies?

["D."]

If there's a thread for this then I apologize as I had no idea, and mods can lock.

Before business-savvy ERA chimes in, just know I don't know anything about unions beyond the basic premise of it being there to protect the rights of the people in them, as well as them paying union dues...so please keep the "corporate-speak" in a way its easy for me and others to understand.

I ask this cause here lately (or pretty much forever) its been a recurring theme of big fish company does this thing and the small fry, the employees, undergo all manner and types of suffering. Among other things...I also want to know despite reputations, how do these companies keep getting more staff if it should be known by this point that you are most assuredly an expendable asset? Is the job market in the games industry hurting that bad that people have no choice but to go and work for "the devil"?

 

[Glio]

The businessmen and their lackeys are very good at trying to convince you that unions are in fact a bad thing for the worker.

 

[Locust Star]

First, it's very much tied to the way that North American (US+Canada) has viewed unions throughout history (such as during the Red Scare). Then you had a whole lot of union-busting that especially Reagan did in the 80's. So there has been a lot of animosity towards unions at least on an ideological / hegemonic level.

Second, a lot of white-collar workers were brought up to think that they would be fine without labor laws and safety nets, because that's the way that they were brought up and educated. Especially in IT during the 80's and early 90's. A lot of people within that industry simply didn't find it necessary to be part of a union. I read a really good piece on this a while ago, I'll see if I can dig it up.

In videogames, you also have a lot of meat for the grinder in the sense that wide-eyed young people come in and simply feel sufficiently rewarded for simply being able to "make games", as if it's some glorious work to do - until they crunch for so long under the guise of "passion" that they end up realizing that their labor is simply being exploited by a major corporation for profits that CEOs and investors take.

 

[Khanimus]

Because games have an endless influx of new talent that doesn't care about self-preservation, can work cheap, and won't argue with you.

Unions only work if management bothers to recognize those workers' rights. But most employees simply can't afford to hold out without any kind of paycheque for a studio to cave to such demands. Instead, they'll threaten to hire cheap, easily exploitable labor. The system is stacked against workers.

 

[Fart Master]

Corporations

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

1. Bosses have worked a very long time to make it that way

2. Talent can be chewed up, spat out and replaced easily

3. Nobody really gave a shit until recently. The most you got was a story every few years about EA spouses but now its every week and people correctly assume that every AAA game is made under bad circumstances now

 

[Razorrin]

Unfortunately, triple A game development can be so volatile for those in the rank and file in these companies, that too many feel their job, livelihood and ability to support themselves and their family would be threatened too much in either joining at starting a union movement, and feel it would be a waste if they ended up fired anyway.

If protections are possible for those wishing to avoid this fate, it needs to be made clear. It just appears too risky for the majority that would benefit from it.

I want unions in game studies really badly, but discussion MUST be had on how to achieve this. It's not going to happen on it's own in an industry where people can be easily replaced by more idealistic and plyable workers at a moments notice.

 

[EvilBoris]

You have to get the business you work for to recognise the union. As unions are often viewed as not being in the interest of the business, that in itself is a hard thing to make happen without massive struggles

 

[Laser Man]

Limitless supply of young dreamers that are willing to put up with that shit in the name of passion for the art. Just replace the disillusioned ones with fresh bodies to avoid trouble!

 

["D."]

First, it's very much tied to the way that North American (US+Canada) has viewed unions throughout history (such as during the Red Scare). Then you had a whole lot of union-busting that especially Reagan did in the 80's. So there has been a lot of animosity towards unions at least on an ideological / hegemonic level.

Second, a lot of white-collar workers were brought up to think that they would be fine without labor laws and safety nets, because that's the way that they were brought up and educated. Especially in IT during the 80's and early 90's. A lot of people within that industry simply didn't find it necessary to be part of a union. I read a really good piece on this a while ago, I'll see if I can dig it up.

In videogames, you also have a lot of meat for the grinder in the sense that wide-eyed young people come in and simply feel sufficiently rewarded for simply being able to "make games", as if it's some glorious work to do - until they crunch for so long under the guise of "passion" that they end up realizing that their labor is simply being exploited by a major corporation for profits that CEOs and investors take.

Click to shrink...

The second paragraph is crazy. But I guess it ties into propaganda that might've been circulating (and still is) around that shy people away from unionizing. Just can't understand why someone wouldn't want to empower themselves

 

[Kwigo]

I think one of the biggest issues with the game industry is that it's a passion industry. People dream of working in this industry and are prepared to sacrifice a lot for it to happen. Or at least they think they do, until the harsh reality hits them.

I got lucky to get out when I did, and even though I still sometimes wish I'd create games instead of output management for an insurance company, I know that I have a rather healthy work-life balance and a decent salary.

 

[mrmoose]

I don't think it's specific to the videogame industry, although they obviously have a unique case where there are a lot of fans that would kill for a job in the industry and they can pay accordingly.

I don't think many private companies employing a lot of programmers/software engineers have unions either. And I think it comes from not only the mindset of how unions are viewed, but also with whether or not you feel like a union would benefit you. Like you'd need most workers to agree to it, and in industries where there are highly skilled workers, I think the feeling is you're better off negotiating on your own than collective bargaining when you've been in the industry for a while.

Though that may stem from me being influenced by how unions are viewed. For instance, I see public unions like teachers and there just doesn't really seem like there's a way to advance beyond just being there for longer.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

2. Talent can be chewed up, spat out and replaced easily

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I'd say the combination of a constant influx of talent combined with the fact that the otherwise unsustainable labor practices (meaning few people can stay in the industry without suffering severe burnout) means nobody is in the industry for long enough to actually organize. They get chewed up and spat out and I don't really blame anyone for getting as far away from it as possible, because it'd be disastrous to their health to stay.

Plus the work culture is normalized right from the beginning; lots of college game design curriculum are built around making students crunch, which is an awful practice that only hastens the burnout.

 

["D."]

You have to get the business you work for to recognise the union. As unions are often viewed as not being in the interest of the business, that in itself is a hard thing to make happen without massive struggles

Click to shrink...

Isn't there something that can be done like (I can't believe I'm saying this) the government getting involved and just creating a sanctioned body that at least a primary union can be born under?

 

["D."]

I don't think it's specific to the videogame industry, although they obviously have a unique case where there are a lot of fans that would kill for a job in the industry and they can pay accordingly.

I don't think many private companies employing a lot of programmers/software engineers have unions either. And I think it comes from not only the mindset of how unions are viewed, but also with whether or not you feel like a union would benefit you. Like you'd need most workers to agree to it, and in industries where there are highly skilled workers, I think the feeling is you're better off negotiating on your own than collective bargaining when you've been in the industry for a while.

Though that may stem from me being influenced by how unions are viewed. For instance, I see public unions like teachers and there just doesn't really seem like there's a way to advance beyond just being there for longer.

Click to shrink...

Makes sense

 

[Deleted member 23158]

I think the main reason is that game development is a high skilled field, where you have exit options. People are just leaving the industry when pressed too hard. People aren't forced to stay, and as such people are made to feel like that it just isn't for them. I see this in my field as well (Audit/Accounting) which has faster burn rate then even the games industry. This is based on my impression with audit/accounting having people leaving in droves in 2 to 4 years and with games industry seems to be on 4 to 6 years (this is based on what I read on the internet, not necessarily reliable). I live in a country (Netherlands) where Unions aren't considered bad btw.

 

[Everybody Lies]

In America most folks have been convinced that unions are for people like Tom Brady and Stephen King and Robert Downey Jr. and the like and not the guys and gals grinding out for 60k a year. In essence, they have been trained very well by their corporate overlords that uniting would be bad for them.

Divide and conquer is a tale as old as time and when hasn't it worked?

 

[dabri]

High amount of contract workers combined with a large amount of young talent willing to sell their souls for a chance to work in the industry. On average people only spend a few years in the industry before leaving. It's a meat grinder with an endless supply of meat.

 

[Freakzilla]

Unions are dying, not forming for new industries.

 

["D."]

In America most folks have been convinced that unions are for people like Tom Brady and Stephen King and Robert Downey Jr. and the like and not the guys and gals grinding out for 60k a year. In essence, they have been trained very well by their corporate overlords that uniting would be bad for them.

Divide and conquer is a tale as old as time and when hasn't it worked?

Click to shrink...

*sigh* you aint lying..

 

[mrmoose]

In America most folks have been convinced that unions are for people like Tom Brady and Stephen King and Robert Downey Jr. and the like and not the guys and gals grinding out for 60k a year. In essence, they have been trained very well by their corporate overlords that uniting would be bad for them.

Divide and conquer is a tale as old as time and when hasn't it worked?

Click to shrink...

This is an interesting point, it seems like unions like the screen actors guild and sports unions work on a different playing field, or at least, I don't see them guaranteeing work or preventing actors/athletes from being fired/cut. Which is what a call to unionize usually means here. Obviously they negotiate basic contract structures and revenue sharing, things like that, but everything else is up for individual negotiation.

 

["D."]

High amount of contract workers combined with a large amount of young talent willing to sell their souls for a chance to work in the industry. On average people only spend a few years in the industry before leaving. It's a meat grinder with an endless supply of meat.

Click to shrink...

Sometimes I worry about our hobby cause it really does seem like AAA games are kinda slowly marching us into this stagnant industry like a crash...cause they want to put so much into making money while shirking on quality...and I just don't know how long a practice like that will last especially when us players are getting more and more vocal, on top of the constant games journalism coverage about the shady tactics of these big companies reaching sometimes, mainstream news

One can argue that despite all this it may or may not reach the "mainstream public" where it can really turn heads and chance perspective on a broader scale..but I feel like stuff like this will only remain "lowkey" for so long until word of mouth and things of that nature will start to circulate

 

[mrmoose]

Sometimes I worry about our hobby cause it really does seem like AAA games are kinda slowly marching us into this stagnant industry like a crash...cause they want to put so much into making money while shirking on quality...and I just don't know how long a practice like that will last especially when us players are getting more and more vocal, on top of the constant games journalism coverage about the shady tactics of these big companies reaching sometimes, mainstream news

One can argue that despite all this it may or may not reach the "mainstream public" where it can really turn heads and chance perspective on a broader scale..but I feel like stuff like this will only remain "lowkey" for so long until word of mouth and things of that nature will start to circulate

Click to shrink...

It seems to me like it's mainly a case of the scope of a AAA game getting so big that you need so many resources to even complete it, and then the failure rate of AAA games as far as revenue goes. Like if you fixed it so that everyone working on a game got a decent wage, would that eliminate crunch? If you fixed the pay and crunch, even minimizing revenue for the company at large how much would a game cost?

 

[Professor Beef]

Because games have an endless influx of new talent that doesn't care about self-preservation, can work cheap, and won't argue with you.

Unions only work if management bothers to recognize those workers' rights. But most employees simply can't afford to hold out without any kind of paycheque for a studio to cave to such demands. Instead, they'll threaten to higher cheap, easily exploitable labor. The system is stacked against workers.

Click to shrink...

took my answer

there's very little incentive for game companies to work with a union since there's always going to be some fresh meat coming straight from college eager to make an impression who can easily replace anyone who dares to speak about joining a union

 

[Dyle]

Game development started when unions of all types were beginning to struggle and it's only gotten worse. Even if it's the right and obvious thing to do there is a ton of pressure pushing people away from starting new unions, letting alone joining relatively strong ones that already exist.

 

[kyorii]

Isn't there something that can be done like (I can't believe I'm saying this) the government getting involved and just creating a sanctioned body that at least a primary union can be born under?

Click to shrink...

The problem is that Americas labor laws are weak and Trumps NLRB (The national labor relations board) is nowadays very hostile to labor in general.

 

[Jessie]

Decades of union busting and a generation that isn't comfortable with protest—for economic or social reasons.

 

[Khanimus]

Isn't there something that can be done like (I can't believe I'm saying this) the government getting involved and just creating a sanctioned body that at least a primary union can be born under?

Click to shrink...

US voters are consistently manipulated to vote against their well-being on even basic levels like socialized medicine, welfare, etc.

Asking the government to step in is asking them to de-prioritize corporate interests, and that isn't happening. Labor laws are what they are in the US at the behest of corporate lobbyists. Workers' rights is consistently something for them to hack away at.

 

[elenarie]

Game development started when unions of all types were beginning to struggle and it's only gotten worse. Even if it's the right and obvious thing to do there is a ton of pressure pushing people away from starting new unions, letting alone joining relatively strong ones that already exist.

Click to shrink...

Worse how, and for who? Is this a US only thing?

 

[Watchtower]

General American anti-union sentiment combined with Silicon Valley's brand of "if you survive the grind you'll be a millionaire" crunch culture.

Doesn't help that the masses don't really know/care about the people in the industry outside of teams/corporations and certain noteworthy individuals.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

Isn't there something that can be done like (I can't believe I'm saying this) the government getting involved and just creating a sanctioned body that at least a primary union can be born under?

Click to shrink...

This is actually what the government should be doing. Regulations are exactly what the government should be handling and wages/OT are absolutely something they should be involved with. We shouldn't need to have a union or even ask for one, but people have to have the self-respect to be able to GTFO and not grind their nose to a fine pulp just because the company says so.

Decades of union busting and a generation that isn't comfortable with protest—for economic or social reasons.

Click to shrink...

I... okay, this is going to come off bad, but are you serious? We see protests for crap all the time. Or are we talking in a very specific bubble?

 

[Deleted member 984]

Unionisation isn't always a great idea in practice even though a great idea in premise. It's not a particularly easy task to get a large group of people to agree on something even without examples of poor union leadership and corporate/political sabotage. Doing that across a nation is even harder, especially in a country that has had decades of propaganda against it or examples of Unions acting like gangsters.

 

[collige]

The second paragraph is crazy. But I guess it ties into propaganda that might've been circulating (and still is) around that shy people away from unionizing. Just can't understand why someone wouldn't want to empower themselves

Click to shrink...

Gaming is fairly unique in the software development world in that the working condition are way worse that most other places and the pay isn't great. So while I wouldn't say that developers as a whole don't need a union, I can certainly say that in my particular position I would care a hell of a lot more about it if I was working in games.

 

[kyorii]

Worse how, and for who? Is this a US only thing?

Click to shrink...

US mainly. And yes it has, as right to work laws passed state by state, plus the Janus Supreme Court decision. Janus was the decision by the Supreme Court saying public sector employees can opt out of the union, which further weaken unions.

A great example of this in recent times was when right to work passed by Scott Walker in union strong Wisconsin. Over night membership and unions dropped drastically, as did the political landscape. It was a crushing blow to labor for years to come.

 

[Swiggins]

The same reason why retail workers, office workers, fast food workers, etc. don't have unions either.

Honestly, getting a union started these days is damn near impossible no matter what industry you're in.

Unions have proven so effective (and necessary) for the jobs that already have them that the powers to be will do fucking ANYTHING to prevent unionization, because they know it means that they'll actually have to start treating their employees like human-fucking beings instead of cattle.

The Games Industry deperately needs it's on version of SAG-AFTRA, IATSE, Teamster's, etc. but about a hundred other industries do as well. I know it sounds like I'm making a joke, but The Man does not want workers to band together as a large bloc.

 

[Kukawaki]

The businessmen and their lackeys are very good at trying to convince you that unions are in fact a bad thing for the worker.

Click to shrink...

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

[FliX]

I was wondering about this recently. How is crunch handled at say European studios? We've heard bad things from CDPR. What about others? Does a company like GG not have union ties in the Netherlands?

 

[Sheepinator]

DICE is a union shop. Possibly related, gamers seem to be unhappy about the relative lack of content in their games at launch, and slow pace of DLC in their current BFV.

 

[Bhonar]

Among other things...I also want to know despite reputations, how do these companies keep getting more staff if it should be known by this point that you are most assuredly an expendable asset?

Click to shrink...

I'll let other people answer the union parts, but this question is easy --

Because there will always be people across the world who need any kind of job

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

1. Corporations have a lot of money and power and lawyers to make it very difficult to start a union

2. Everyone needs a job and everyone dreams of working in the game industry

 

[Bhonar]

US voters are consistently manipulated to vote against their well-being on even basic levels like socialized medicine, welfare, etc

Click to shrink...

well to clarify, not every single voter would personally benefit/qualify from welfare and socialized medicine

for welfare, it would only be those below a certain income level. last time I looked a few years ago, this was well below 50% of voters. So it's not like we're talking about the majority of the US

for socialized medicine, it would be those who do not have a job which offers healthcare. (I do not know the statistics for this)

So it's not 100% of voters that would benefit from these two programs, and some of them probably think it's a waste of government money

However, obviously there are some voters that do qualify but still end up voting Republican or whatever. I don't understand those people... but like you said, it's probably because they've been psychologically manipulated. But hey, in the end they gotta use their own brain, it's not illegal to be "dumb"

 

[MasterOfMagnet]

Funny thing about people saying that there is endless meat willing to grind themselves to dust in the market is that we are seeing the effects of that as more and more games from large companies run into development hell and end up releasing sub par.

Yoshi P, the director/producer for FFXIV mentioned that he has to constantly cut scope in the game because his studio was burning out and he couldn't afford to replace personnel, he is trying to grow his division to expand into other games eventually.

 

["D."]

Funny thing about people saying that there is endless meat willing to grind themselves to dust in the market is that we are seeing the effects of that as more and more games from large companies run into development hell and end up releasing sub par.

Yoshi P, the director/producer for FFXIV mentioned that he has to constantly cut scope in the game because his studio was burning out and he couldn't afford to replace personnel, he is trying to grow his division to expand into other games eventually.

Click to shrink...

This right here is damning. One thing I can say for asian developers/publishers is they either slightly ahead of the curve or aware of these predatory employee practices and the effect they have on employees and ultimately, the company. Satoru Iwata really was a gem when it came to how he ran Nintendo from the business side...if things weren't right instead of cutting employees and lowering morale, HE took the blame and a PAY CUT to make sure his people stayed in good spirits and felt safe in their position.

Now, hop across the pond to good ol US of A and these execs give themselves bonuses and raises, and all in the same wave of the hand cut HUNDREDS of jobs talking about we need to "save money" or some bullshit like that

 

[elenarie]

I was wondering about this recently. How is crunch handled at say European studios? We've heard bad things from CDPR. What about others? Does a company like GG not have union ties in the Netherlands?

Click to shrink...

Depends on the countries, really. Each country has different rules / unions / whatever. I have heard very good things about certain places, and horrible things about other places. The better ones tend to be in northern Europe, while the horrible ones in eastern Europe. But that is sort of in line with the overall states of these societies, as the industry is not immune to cultural and political influences.

 

[mrmoose]

This right here is damning. One thing I can say for asian developers/publishers is they either slightly ahead of the curve or aware of these predatory employee practices and the effect they have on employees and ultimately, the company. Satoru Iwata really was a gem when it came to how he ran Nintendo from the business side...if things weren't right instead of cutting employees and lowering morale, HE took the blame and a PAY CUT to make sure his people stayed in good spirits and felt safe in their position.

Now, hop across the pond to good ol US of A and these execs give themselves bonuses and raises, and all in the same wave of the hand cut HUNDREDS of jobs talking about we need to "save money" or some bullshit like that

Click to shrink...

Iwata was awesome, but the paycut was largely symbolic (part of that is because the execs don't make obscene amounts like they do here, though). Japanese law makes it really, really difficult to cut payroll quickly. In fact, you often have to shame them into quitting. Still a great thing for him to do, but as has been pointed out numerous times in the past, Nintendo has cut jobs in other countries that are not subject to Japanese law.

 

[Wolf Parade]

There is a skill deficit in the industry and massive competition for talent. I am often perplexed by those who portray the workers in this industry as victims. There is more demand for talented programmers than there is supply, and video game companies compete for talent not only with each other, but more broadly with other IT intensive industries.

This is not to diminish the stress and anxiety experienced by those in crunch environments. It is difficult to leave a job that you are emotionally invested in, especially when you are passionate about the product you are developing, but ultimately the labor of workers in this industry is incredibly valuable in the market unlike millions of low skilled workers who genuinely have few other options.

 

[Dice]

 

[Bish_Bosch]

I would also guess that at least in the American context quite a bit of game developers are still white upper-middle-class men who likely don't come from union families to the benefits to unionization is less tangible. Let alone the obvious fact that unionization has been suppressed in this country since the 1950's.

 

[mrmoose]

There is a skill deficit in the industry and massive competition for talent. I am often perplexed by those who portray the workers in this industry as victims. There is more demand for talented programmers than there is supply, and video game companies compete for talent not only with each other, but more broadly with other IT intensive industries.

This is not to diminish the stress and anxiety experienced by those in crunch environments. It is difficult to leave a job that you are emotionally invested in, especially when you are passionate about the product you are developing, but ultimately the labor of workers in this industry is incredibly valuable in the market unlike millions of low skilled workers who genuinely have few other options.

Click to shrink...

While not exactly the kinds of low skilled workers you're talking about, I'm sure this thread was at least partially prompted by the whole NetherRealm articles and the 12 dollar an hour QA/artist/bottom tier developer contractors that are mentioned there. They are replaceable, there's a glut of people who want to break into the industry and so there's a lot of supply.

Top tier developers, sure, there's competition. Which is why if they want to make a union work, they'll need top tier to band together with the bottom, but as I said before there's little incentive for the top tier to do so.

 

[Atisha]

Which developers are the ideal, a collective, a co op - run and held by the worker bees, and which are the soul sucking corporate hellscapes?
Are there actually any in existence, employee held and run development houses?

Strikes work pretty good, it's not like the head honchos can code . . .