How can people call themselves ’animal lovers’ and then eat meat?

[curiouscharles]

Inhumane treatment is not a necessity of eating meat. The mass inhumane treatment of livestock is a modern phenomenon.

I respect your choice to be vegan, but you are creating a false dichotomy here.

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no they're not.

your post is accurate, humane meat consumption is possible. [theoretically, i just don't see it happening en masse on a practical level]

it's just not how things are being done right now.

we HAVE drawn an arbitrary line in the sand though "this animal sleeps in my bed, this animal gets sent to slaughter", there's no lies detected in their statement.

i feel like we're SO close to having a real discussion without any triggered reactions here, just trying to continue encouraging that.

<3 you all [regardless of what you eat]

 

[Drowner]

Same way people love gardens but eat veggies.

Same way people want to save the planet but drive cars and keep using their phones, computers, etc...

Same way people love animals but also eat meat.


OP probably thought this thread was so clever.

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I think you're right in *how* people do this. Most people think of animals as commodities like plants and phones (and by extension the exploited people making the phones) but don't think about that animals are suffering sentient animals when they eat them

 

[NinjaScooter]

I don't love cows and chickens.

 

[Midgarian]

They don't eat the meat of the animals they love.

 

[JasoNsider]

Inhumane treatment is not a necessity of eating meat. The mass inhumane treatment of livestock is a modern phenomenon.

I respect your choice to be vegan, but you are creating a false dichotomy here.

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It's a modern phenomenon that 99% of people who eat meat willingly participate in. They are nearly inseparable.

 

[AGoodODST]

i don't think all these triggered responses are necessary people...

mind you, the OP could have been fleshed out way better.

yes, it's definitely weird for people to love dogs, then love eating meat.

i'm more interested in having a discussion on the segmentation of animals in this manner and its roots, and to dissect the psychology behind it.

i'm not interested in guilting people for "loving animals" and eating meat, nor am i interested in gotcha thinking.

it's precisely my love for my dogs that grew into my eventual adoption of veganism.

for me it was simply because i saw enough examples of pigs [in particular] and cows [a little less so] expressing love and reacting to love that made me go "why eat those and not this?".

sure, living things eat living things, but we're supposed to be civilized beyond our biology - "to be human, is to want to be more than what we are" and all that.

i don't expect the world to go vegan ever at all or anything, but what i WOULD like to see is an end to factory-style meat production.

essentially i'd like to see meat eating become more of a luxury, than a right / expectation.

less meat, smaller numbers, more humane conditions for its production [small / local farms, etc].

i've only been vegan for.... nine months now, and honestly it's pretty easy but i ain't gon lie and pretend like i don't miss fried chicken.




my dogs eat raw meat.

they're dogs, they can't be expected to follow higher level ethical diets lol.

i love them, so i give them what their bodies are designed to eat, and what is best for them.

can't speak for any other vegans [there's a lot of dumb ones, we know this].

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I think the simple answer is people are more likely to have been in meaningful contact with a dog or cat etc so it's easier to have that distinction.

For what's its worth I love dogs and would also eat a dog (or other domesticated animal). 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[sgtnosboss]

Vegan here, you're going about this the wrong way. People can love some animals, and eat other kinds.

 

[curiouscharles]

I think the simple answer is people are more likely to have been in meaningful contact with a dog or cat so it's easier to have that distinction.

For what's its worth I love dogs and would also eat a dog. 🤷🏻‍♂️

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totally, very logical.

 

[Puck Beaverton]

Chill morrissey

 

[Deleted member 2317]

Perfect time for one of those

"
Era:
Also Era:
"

analogies

 

[Deleted member 2145]

It's a modern phenomenon that 99% of people who eat meat willingly participate in. They are nearly inseparable.

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do you think 99% of the people who abstain from eating meat don't also willingly participate in the inhumanity of our food industry?

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Well arguable slaughtering animals is inhumane, period.

Also I do always find it strange that many carnivores bang on about "ethical sourced meats", when the fact of the matter is that a vast, vast, vast majority of meat is not and will never be produced that way. I'd argue most people who bang that drum don't go out of their way to find a local farm but just get their meat at the local super market just like almost everyone else.

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no they're not.

your post is accurate, humane meat consumption is possible. [theoretically, i just don't see it happening en masse on a practical level]

it's just not how things are being done right now.

we HAVE drawn an arbitrary line in the sand though "this animal sleeps in my bed, this animal gets sent to slaughter", there's no lies detected in their statement.

i feel like we're SO close to having a real discussion without any triggered reactions here, just trying to continue encouraging that.

<3 you all [regardless of what you eat]

Click to shrink...

I literally made a post addressing both these points like 2 posts above the one you are quoting. I'm a vegetarian, I don't eat meat. I just don't think the veil of moral superiority people try to erect around veganism/vegetarianism is very useful or effective at changing society.

Yes, most meat is NOT raised in a humane way, hence why I don't eat it. But I'm sure I consume a litany of other things that are also harmful to the environment or society in some way. So what right do I have to go around calling people hypocrites for saying they love animals while they also eat meat? None.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

It's a modern phenomenon that 99% of people who eat meat willingly participate in. They are nearly inseparable.

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Sure and both you and I willingly participate in multiple systems that cause destruction to the environment, destruction to parts of society, that likely even harm people, even if we don't eat meat. It's not like non-meat food items are grown and harvested in an ethical manner either, and at the end of most of those chains is environmental damage and human suffering.

I agree with you about meat production, but outside of just acknowledging that meat production as it currently stands is harmful and working towards seeking alternatives, what else should we do? Say people who eat meat can't actually love animals? No, that's extremely counterproductive.

 

[StrangeRoboMemory]

i don't think all these triggered responses are necessary people...

mind you, the OP could have been fleshed out way better.

yes, it's definitely weird for people to love dogs, then love eating meat.

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It's not weird. Dogs are domesticated animals and have been so for at least 15,000 years. They have evolved specifically through co-dependence on humans.

But, Yale's Laurie Santos says, dogs may have compensated in other interesting ways. They've learned to use humans to solve problems.

"Several researchers have presented dogs and wolves with an impossible problem (e.g., a puzzle box that can't be opened or a pulling tool that stops working) and have asked how these different species react," Santos explains. "Researchers have found that wolves try lots of different trial and error tactics to solve the problem— they get at it physically. But at the first sign of trouble, dogs do something different. They look back to their human companion for help. This work hints that dogs may have lost some of their physical problem-solving abilities in favor of more social strategies, ones that rely on the unique sort of cooperation domesticated dogs have with humans. This also matches the work showing that dogs are especially good at using human social cues."

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I don't think it's surprising that people would create a separation here. Cows have been used for meat consumption and their milk for 10,000 years. Pigs have been used for meat for at least 9,000 years. There's a long history behind this.

Personally, I have no problem with eating meat. I think it's an important part of how humans developed historically, and I don't have any moral issue with eating meat today. My problem is only with mass meat production and cruel/environmentally harmful conditions. I eat meat but I'm thoughtful about where I buy from and what I'm eating. That's my take.

 

[curiouscharles]

I literally made a post addressing both these points like 2 posts above the one you are quoting. I'm a vegetarian, I don't eat meat. I just don't think the veil of moral superiority people try to erect around veganism/vegetarianism is very useful or effective at changing society.

Yes, most meat is NOT raised in a humane way, hence why I don't eat it. But I'm sure I consume a litany of other things that are also harmful to the environment or society in some way. So what right do I have to go around calling people hypocrites for saying they love animals while they also eat meat? None.

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oh dude, yeah i saw that.

not trying to act morally superior at all here, i hoped my wording was careful enough but if i came across that way please accept my sincere apologies.

i 100% agree, moral superiority / ethical grand-standing is 100% counter-productive.

It's not weird. Dogs are domesticated animals and have been so for at least 15,000 years. They have evolved specifically through co-dependence on humans.

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100%, tooootally.

well familiar with this and a great point to consider when thinking this all through.

literally this evolution through co-dependency that led to the production of oxytocin in dogs' brains, which is now what separates them from wolves.

 

[Drowner]

I literally made a post addressing both these points like 2 posts above the one you are quoting. I'm a vegetarian, I don't eat meat. I just don't think the veil of moral superiority people try to erect around veganism/vegetarianism is very useful or effective at changing society.

Yes, most meat is NOT raised in a humane way, hence why I don't eat it. But I'm sure I consume a litany of other things that are also harmful to the environment or society in some way. So what right do I have to go around calling people hypocrites for saying they love animals while they also eat meat? None.

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people can love animals and still eat meat and I won't call them out for it- I'm not perfect. but I think when people are bragging about helping exploit animals b/c "it's tasty" or 'other things are worse or just as bad' it should be called out

 

[Deleted member 1849]

When people say "they love animals", what they really mean is "they love pets".

 

[RoaminRonin]

I'm 12 and this is deep

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When op said "how can you eat meat while loving animals" I felt that.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

oh dude, yeah i saw that.

not trying to act morally superior at all here, i hoped my wording was careful enough but if i came across that way please accept my sincere apologies.

i 100% agree, moral superiority / ethical grand-standing is 100% counter-productive.




100%, tooootally.

well familiar with this and a great point to consider when thinking this all through.

literally this evolution through co-dependency that led to the production of oxytocin in dogs' brains, which is now what separates them from wolves.

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Don't worry about it, you are fine and made your points well.

people can love animals and still eat meat and I won't call them out for it- I'm not perfect. but I think when people are bragging about helping exploit animals b/c "it's tasty" or 'other things are worse or just as bad' it should be called out

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I don't think I've ever seen someone brag about the inhumane treatment of animals. Not saying it doesn't happen, there are plenty of straight up animal abusers out there, but I haven't seen it here or as a direct response to the meat industry. Plenty of people are apathetic to it, but that's not bragging about the mistreatment or revelling in it.

 

[Nothing Loud]

Minus some kind of condition that prevents it, you can source all the protein you need from non-animal sources. Vegan body builders, athletes, erc... exist too.

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I know, but the protein density of pulses and legumes is lower compared to animal sources. You have to eat a lot of weight and calories of chick peas before you can get to the same protein content of a chicken breast. 50% more actually. Chick peas are about 0.2 G protein/ G of chick pea, and chicken breast is about 0.3 G protein / g of chicken breast

 

[FliX]

I literally made a post addressing both these points like 2 posts above the one you are quoting. I'm a vegetarian, I don't eat meat. I just don't think the veil of moral superiority people try to erect around veganism/vegetarianism is very useful or effective at changing society.

Yes, most meat is NOT raised in a humane way, hence why I don't eat it. But I'm sure I consume a litany of other things that are also harmful to the environment or society in some way. So what right do I have to go around calling people hypocrites for saying they love animals while they also eat meat? None.

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The way I see it we all live on a spectrum.
On the one end is zero ecological footprint on the other is eating engendered species every day while jet setting around the globe on a private jet and burning rain forest for fun.

To be as close as humanly possible to the one end would mean I just go and string myself up over the nearest compost heap.
Ever single thing one does moves one further up or down the spectrum.
And everyone has to find a balance and find their place on the spectrum.

• Me not eating meat brings me closer to the positive side.
• Me eating Avocado brings me closer to the negative side.
• Me commuting to work by foot brings me closer to the positive side.
• Me flying to Europe to visit my family brings me closer to the negative side.
• etc.

Not all things are equally easy/hard.
And I would argue that on balance eating predominantly plant based is relatively speaking easy and something most people have a personal choice and influence over. (To be clear I am not hand waving the existence of food deserts or any other of a multitude of personal hardships some individuals might face preventing them from eating predominantly plant based)
I'd argue it's easier than e.g. living in most places in the US without a car.

I am aware of all these things and do my best to have more of my life's choices point me towards the positive side.
Everything I do? Unequivocally not.
Could I personally do more? Probably.
Am I doing more than the average middle class westerner? Probably?

People have to understand their personal life's choices have consequences and I will continue to side eye people who are concerned about animal welfare or climate change yet do not even consider cutting down on their daily meat excesses.

 

[curiouscharles]

I know, but the protein density of pulses and legumes is lower compared to animal sources. You have to eat a lot of weight and calories of chick peas before you can get to the same protein content of a chicken breast. 50% more actually. Chick peas are about 0.2 G protein/ G of chick pea, and chicken breast is about 0.3 G protein / g of chicken breast

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yup, i'm big into lifting / fitness in general and sourcing my lean protein has NOT been as easy.

i eat shit loads of tofu, and take vegan protein powder, but it's been harder hitting my .8 - 1g of protein per bodyweight to keep my physique i can't deny that [that is, without going too high in carbs, for example].

 

[infinitebento]

idk i stopped consuming meat months ago and occasionally have a vegan diet tbh.

most people dont care about the sourcing of their meat or turn a blind eye to animal welfare.

if you enjoy eating meat, thats cool do you, but at least try to source your proteins from local farms that allow free range for animals and arent pumping animals with antibiotics or hormones raising them in overcrowded cages then shoving them through a line to get slaughtered. Sourcing matters a lot especially if you sincerely wish to start caring about how your animals are raised prior to consumption.

Expecting people to stop eating meat all together is unrealistic though but we can at least encourage people to stop buying from shitty ass companies like Tyson. Educating people makes a difference even if you can't completely convert someone to vegan or vegetarianism. We also have to acknowledge that in lower income areas, better sourcing for meat products isn't always an option. There is a lot at play here for why some people financially cannot make better choices when it comes to meat consumption.

 

[IMCaprica]

And that's perfectly fine.
I think the BUT YOU LIVE IN A SOCIETY \ IAMVERYSMART is a correct response to the stupid gotchas.

I fully agree that the fight, today, is political and not through boycotts.
We live in a society, let's solve the problems of the commons like we're commons.

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For sure, and I think the thread had long since moved beyond OP's weak post that doesn't do anything for the actual issues. But yeah, generally speaking my response to the "society" people is "yeah but also that thing you mentioned is worth reflecting on too even if you think it's trivial".

Great posts.

The back-and-forth in this thread was looking really bad as some users justs ignored the point completely regarding this: it is undeniable that there are a lot of people that can (or could) make that change with the avaliable resources without a significant affect on their lifestyle. Reflecting on that and considering what are the effects that these choices have on our environment is an important duty that we all have to face.

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That's ultimately what it comes down to for me. I think addressing the issue of limited resources to make the jump to veganism is definitely worth doing. But too often it's used by people who just want to squash the conversation.

Unfortunately even when it's used in an honest discussion it's difficult to dive into without losing sight of the original topic. Because yes the inability to change is real, but then you're getting into the broader failings of society, government, capitalism, etc. I think sometimes both the vegan side and the "I literally can't be vegan" side get stuck sniping each other because there's a communication issue and also disingenuous shit starters jump in.

 

[DoradoWinston]

I love animals, I love animals that eat animals, and damn are animals tasty so I love em even more with seasoning.


This thread is like a 14 year old who got high for the first time lol

 

[Clefargle]

people typically need cars in our society though. I guess you could say environmentalists should move to a city where they can get around by walking or bussing, but veganism is a lot easier

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And people need sources of protein to get around. Some people don't have access to non meat proteins in easy to access sources just like some people don't have a public transit system where they live

 

[Wag]

Love tastes like chicken.

 

[LanceX2]

Oh come on with this ish lol.

Why do environmentalists use transportation or live in a house ran with gasoline and coal.

 

[SpankyDoodle]

I love animals, including the way some of them taste?

 

[Kemono]

Hear me, hear me! Stop eating animals! Stop eating them with honey mustard sauce. Stop eating them with tangy sweet-and-sour sauce. Stop eating the new fiesta chicken salad. Stop taking advantage of the money-saving 12-pack. Stop enjoying meat on the patio, in the car, or on the boat. Wherever good times are had!

 

[Anas]

calm down vegans

 

[VideogameVices]

you can be both.

 

[Anas]

i hate chickens but I like how it tastes
Simple

 

[Japanmanx3]

Jaden Smith's alt account.

 

[FunnyBunny19]

Well we'd have to be talkin' about one charmin' motherf***in' pig. I mean he'd have to be ten times more charmin' than that Arnold on Green Acres, you know what I'm sayin'?

 

[Jesse_and_the_rippers]

It's not weird. Dogs are domesticated animals and have been so for at least 15,000 years. They have evolved specifically through co-dependence on humans.

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Exactly. This is why most people find things like dog fighting so abhorrent. They've literally been bred for thousands of years to trust and depend on humans. Same reason why most people wouldn't eat a horse, but have no problem eating a cow. There's a level of intelligence and companionship that the former have that the latter simply doesn't.

"They rode me into battle, you stood around waiting to be eaten. We are not the same" - A horse to a cow, probably.

This thread is like a 14 year old who got high for the first time lol

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lol

 

[Browser]

I would champion for a more humane treatment of livestock, and a painless way for them to die, and this would sway my purchasing behaviour.

 

[Hu3]

I would champion for a more humane treatment of livestock, and a painless way for them to die, and this would sway my purchasing behaviour.

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Free range, family owned farms, local markets, kosher. are a thing, they exist.

 

[Deleted member 2145]

This thread is like a 14 year old who got high for the first time lol

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you really gonna do 14 year olds like that, damn

 

[Absolute]

I would love to be a vegan but I don't think I'm judgemental enough to really commit.

 

[DeathPeak]

I'm a hypocrite. Won't deny that. I am trying to move towards vegetarian though. My wife and I have been working in more meatless alternatives into our diet. It's not too financially viable for us right now though. Meat alternatives are still on the pricey side and eating just raw/steamed veggies isn't exactly satisfying. We're getting there though.

 

[Gunny T Highway]

People who love animals really mean people who love their pets. Most people do not view animals such as chickens or cows to be pets. They are livestock.

 

[Fulminator]

i feel like the older i get the farther away from meat i stray

i rarely, if ever, eat any non-poultry meat and now i'm trying to reduce my consumption of that as well

dunno why, just increasingly seems weird to me to consume meat. doubt i'll go full vegetarian but i see myself limiting my meat consumption a lot in the coming years.

 

[DoradoWinston]

you really gonna do 14 year olds like that, damn

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i mean you right, but i thought saying a 7 year old getting high was too much, at that point its very concerning how a 7 year old is involved with weed lmao

 

[Gilver]

I love dogs the most and probably only have the rule of not eating dogs because I dont care about the animals we eat. Cows, chickens? Cmon they are dumb as hell.
To me its about how stupid/evil the animal is to why I might care if I eat it.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

The way I see it we all live on a spectrum.
On the one end is zero ecological footprint on the other is eating engendered species every day while jet setting around the globe on a private jet and burning rain forest for fun.

To be as close as humanly possible to the one end would mean I just go and string myself up over the nearest compost heap.
Ever single thing one does moves one further up or down the spectrum.
And everyone has to find a balance and find their place on the spectrum.

• Me not eating meat brings me closer to the positive side.
• Me eating Avocado brings me closer to the negative side.
• Me commuting to work by foot brings me closer to the positive side.
• Me flying to Europe to visit my family brings me closer to the negative side.
• etc.

Not all things are equally easy/hard.
And I would argue that on balance eating predominantly plant based is relatively speaking easy and something most people have a personal choice and influence over. (To be clear I am not hand waving the existence of food deserts or any other of a multitude of personal hardships some individuals might face preventing them from eating predominantly plant based)
I'd argue it's easier than e.g. living in most places in the US without a car.

I am aware of all these things and do my best to have more of my life's choices point me towards the positive side.
Everything I do? Unequivocally not.
Could I personally do more? Probably.
Am I doing more than the average middle class westerner? Probably?

People have to understand their personal life's choices have consequences and I will continue to side eye people who are concerned about animal welfare or climate change yet do not even consider cutting down on their daily meat excesses.

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I'm gonna be honest, I find the extrapolation of your reasonable personal choices into judgement for the actions of others to be kind of flawed. To me, this reads as falling into the 'personal responsibility' trap when this is almost entirely a systemic issue about food production in a late stage capitalist society.

You should feel good about your choices, there is nothing wrong with that. But the idea that because people consume meat (something that is so culturally ingrained in essentially every society on this planet) then that means they can't, on a personal level, care about animal welfare just strikes me as both unnecessarily judgemental and also incredibly pointless. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and trying to tie any form of moral judgement to yourself or others based on basic consumption habits is a fool's errand. You nor I are morally superior to anyone who eats meat, because you can't claim morality based solely on what you do and do not consume.

 

[Sou Da]

They're really "pet lovers"

 

[Deleted member 11413]

I love dogs the most and probably only have the rule of not eating dogs because I dont care about the animals we eat. Cows, chickens? Cmon they are dumb as hell.
To me its about how stupid/evil the animal is to why I might care if I eat it.

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The fuck? This is one of the most bizarre posts I've ever seen on this forum. How the fuck are animals evil? Evil is an entirely human concept.

 

[Gilver]

The fuck? This is one of the most bizarre posts I've ever seen on this forum. How the fuck are animals evil? Evil is an entirely human concept.

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Lol. I mean things like snakes as evil but im kidding, Dogs are probably the only animal I care for enough to not eat. I have a friend that doesn't eat octopus because he thinks they are too smart so its a very subjective thing.

 

[TheIlliterati]

An animal being killed for food is not cruel. Death is natural, is not inhumane. Putting them through unnecessary pain and suffering in the process is wrong. Since I cannot stop the evils inherent in the industry, I continue to eat meat. I can appreciate someone not wanting to support such an industry, but I entirely disagree if it is because of some misguided moral compass that believes all life is sacred and death is the enemy. And again, you can believe that too if you'd like, but I will never agree.