• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
Plus, console gamers would run into similar practical problems that we see on PC gaming: multiple clients, multiple logins, multiple friends lists, some services not having expected features, having to manage multiple libraries' worth of downloads. It'll be a complete mess for the end user.
The horror...


Consoles have had options for using other services providers for more than a decade by now. Via homebrew. The users of homebrew are mostly satisfied, having features console manufacturers don't provide. There is a world of possibilities for user to explore if we just stop protecting the business models that already exploit consumers and developers enough.
 

gifyku

Member
Aug 17, 2020
2,746
I've also bought from Amazon, sometimes they have discounts and sales at times the eShop does not.



How does it get on the phone? Is it downloaded and prompts the user for permission to install? Because this is how it was on Android, and they have said it wasn't good enough. They likely want Apple to host the Epic store binary on the AppStore. Then when it is on your phone there is no guarantee that your phone won't get hacked, or have bad battery life or whatever. When those things happen who do you think will get the blame, who will face the lawsuit? Probably Apple.

Apple also has to maintain APIs and what not that developers will use, but developers on Epic store will be using them without giving a cut of the sales, so either Apple will need to take a loss there or change it so they have individual licenses to all the Epic store developers so they can license the APIs to make their games.

Mac OS and Windows already has solutions for this in the form of Gatekeeper for eg. you can already install Enterprise apps on iOS without going through the App Store.

Epics claim against Android was that Google progressively made side loading hidden and scary for users while moving more of core Android functions to Google Play Services from the core OS.

How come we never hear about Microsoft's cost of maintaining Win32 APIs and DirectX as a reason why all games should go through Windows Store?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
I think it is worth pointing out that having a monopoly in and of itself is not illegal. Therefore, this doesn't necessarily help Epic, especially given that Apple already affirmed that yes they have exclusive control on the distribution of software on iOS so this isn't a proclamation Apple was even disputing.

It only becomes an issue if Apple is seen to be abusing that monopoly power.

I mean we've already seen it though. From Sherlocking, to giving themselves exclusive access to things like SMS, NFC etc, to default app pushing, to lack of browser engine choice (and then underfunding development of that engine to make web apps less attractive), to helping themselves to 30% for hosting/payment that companies could get for much cheaper and then running their own competing services without that overhead, to randomly holding app app/update certification when they don't like you, certification rackets, developer lock-in. The list goes on. I think anyone who actually understands what's going would see that they routinely abuse it.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,128
Sydney
Helps Epic on the question of whether Apple has monopoly power on IOS (not a hard case to make TBH), but doesn't really help on whether or not the 30% is an antitrust violation.

That is still the crucial fact of the case Epic is going to struggle to make without drawing in the consoles.

I said this in another thread, but consoles have a different model than mobile because:

1- you can buy games at retail stores, and you can't do that with mobile apps

2- you can buy digital codes for games at third-party stores, but not iOS apps (not sure about Android)

3- it's easy to prove consoles are sold at a loss while iPhones and iPads are not

4- it's fairly common for companies to negotiate deals that might reduce the 30% margin (money + lower margin to license engines like UE for first-party use, exclusivity, bundles, etc)

All of these distinctions are irrelevant under the Sherman Act, the actual piece of legislation that regulates whether something is an antitrust violation or not.
 

gifyku

Member
Aug 17, 2020
2,746
Don't think many people here are reading the source so I have pasted this long excerpt from page 364 as a sample.

"During the Subcommittee's sixth hearing, Representatives Val Demings (D-FL) and Lucy McBath (D-GA) asked questions regarding Apple's conduct in 2018 and 2019 removing parental control apps from the App Store. In 2018, Apple announced its Screen Time app, a new feature bundled with iOS 12 that helped iOS users limit the time they and their children spent on the iPhone. Thereafter, Apple began to purge many of the leading rival parental control apps from the App Store. Apple explained the apps were removed because they used a technology called Mobile Device Management (MDM). The MDM technology allowed parents to remotely take over their children's phones and block content. Apple noted that MDM could allow the app developer to access sensitive content on the device.

According to The New York Times, the parental control apps using MDM had been offered in the App Store for years, and hundreds of updates to those apps had been approved by Apple. 2317 As a result, many apps were forced to shut down, 2318 although some were given a reprieve. 2319 Two parental control apps filed a complaint with the European Commission, alleging Apple's App Store policies were anticompetitive. The complaint alleged that as Apple purged competitors it introduced Screen Time, pre-installed Screen Time on iOS 12 and activated it by default, and gave Screen Time access to iOS functionalities it denied to competing third-party apps.2320

Subcommittee staff reviewed emails from parents who contacted Apple to complain about the removal of one of the purged parental control apps. 2321 They said that Screen Time was a comparably worse option for consumers—and described it as "more complicated" and "less restrictive" than competitors. 2322 In emails to the company reviewed by Subcommittee staff, parents complained about Apple's monopoly power over app distribution on iOS and self-interest in promoting Screen Time motivated Apple's actions. 2323 In response, Apple Senior Vice President Worldwide Marketing, Phil Schiller explained that Screen Time was "designed to help parents manage their children's access to technology." 2324 He added that Apple would "work with developers to offer many great apps on the App Store for these uses, using technologies that are safe and private for us and our children."2325

Internally, Apple's Vice President of Marketing Communications, Tor Myhren concurred, responding "[t]his is quite incriminating. Is it true?" to an email with a link to The New York Times' reporting. 2326 Apple's communications team asked CEO Tim Cook to approve a "narrative" in that Apple's clear-out of Screen Time's rivals was "not about competition, this is about protecting kids privacy."2327
Developers of the purged apps also contacted Apple, outraged that they had been removed from the App Store while other apps that used MDM remained. 2328 One developer explained it had invested more than $200,000 building its parental control app, then another $30,000 to fix the problem Apple identified, only to be told that Apple would no longer support parental control apps in the App Store.2329

Although Apple claimed its conduct was motivated to protect privacy and not intended to clear out competitors to Screen Time, Apple reinstated many of the apps the same day that it was reported the Department of Justice was investigating Apple for potential antitrust violations. 2330 Apple's solution to address privacy concerns was to ask the apps to promise not to sell or disclose user data to third parties, which could have been achieved through less restrictive means and without removing those apps from the App Store.2331

Developers of parental control apps asked Apple to "release a public API granting developers access to the same functionalities that Apple's native 'Screen Time' uses." 2332 Eventually, Apple did grant some apps access to APIs, 2333 but only after rival app developers were accused of being a risk to children's privacy, removed from the App Store, forced to incur significant costs, only for Apple to change its mind. 2334 As one developer noted, Apple's new MDM privacy policies resulted in "really nothing much changing from the developer side as far as the technology goes."2335

Here, Apple's monopoly power over app distribution enabled it to exclude rivals to the benefit of Screen Time. Apple could have achieved its claimed objective—protecting user privacy—through less restrictive means, which it ultimately did only after significant outcry from the public and a prolonged period of harm to rivals. 2336 Apple's conduct here is a clear example of Apple's use of privacy as a sword to exclude rivals and a shield to insulate itself from charges of anticompetitive conduct.

Subcommittee staff learned that Apple has engaged in conduct to exclude rivals to benefit Apple's services in other instances. For example, Mr. Shoemaker explained that Apple's senior executives would find pretextual reasons to remove apps from the App Store, particularly when those apps competed with Apple services.2337
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
epic doing anything has warped this forums brain, how is antitrust regulation ever possibly bad for "the consumer"
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,486
Austin
I think it'd be a much larger problem for Nintendo and Sony then Microsoft but it will be huge for all 3, the reason I say that is because you could argue that Microsoft allows you to buy games both digitally and physically from retail stores, has to compete with other streaming services in mobile, and launches games on steam and their own store on pc, while on Nintendo platforms they have physical retail, digital retail, and their own store. Sony would have the biggest case against them with the only option being physical retail and their own store.
 

gillian03

Member
Oct 28, 2017
533
I think it is worth pointing out that having a monopoly in and of itself is not illegal. Therefore, this doesn't necessarily help Epic, especially given that Apple already affirmed that yes they have exclusive control on the distribution of software on iOS so this isn't a proclamation Apple was even disputing.

It only becomes an issue if Apple is seen to be abusing that monopoly power.

I'm glad someone understands this. Monopolies have always been allowed to exist in the US.

Although one thing I should add as a devil's advocate - if Apple is found to be using nefarious means to maintain their monopoly, then they deserve scrutiny. If their policies on the App store are consistent since the inception, then I think it should be pretty clear that Apple is not abusing its power. However, if they are inconsistent, and if they are found to be strong-arming companies into making certain agreements - then they should be in violation of anti-trust laws.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
The question is when they start abusing it AND how essential it is to our lives.
Not sure why people keep parroting this. You can have a monopoly and be found guilty of anti-trust regardless of how essential or inessential your product is. There have been anti-trust actions against professional sports leagues. Nintendo themselves were found guilty of price-fixing.
 

MarioW

PikPok
Verified
Nov 5, 2017
1,155
New Zealand
I'm glad someone understands this. Monopolies have always been allowed to exist in the US.

Although one thing I should add as a devil's advocate - if Apple is found to be using nefarious means to maintain their monopoly, then they deserve scrutiny. If their policies on the App store are consistent since the inception, then I think it should be pretty clear that Apple is not abusing its power. However, if they are inconsistent, and if they are found to be strong-arming companies into making certain agreements - then they should be in violation of anti-trust laws.

That's really the crux. From my observation, they have been relatively consistent, bearing in mind that the market and technology has evolved rapidly so there are new policies or policy changes that have happened over time. The key is whether individual companies have been treated differently, which is difficult to know without investigation of internal documents. Will be interesting to see where this all goes.

In general though, iOS as a platform is more readily accessible and flexible by far than the consoles, only a little behind Google Play, and well... PC is open season. If Apple's general model ends up problematic (and not specific instances of nefarious activity), then that is going to have huge ramifications for the console manufacturers.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,128
Sydney
Not sure why people keep parroting this. You can have a monopoly and be found guilty of anti-trust regardless of how essential or inessential your product is. There have been anti-trust actions against professional sports leagues. Nintendo themselves were found guilty of price-fixing m.

Sweeney has been saying it
 

-Peabody-

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,597
Why would Epic even want a separate App Store? Any reduction in fees feels like it would be overshadowed by the lack of advertisement on the main store.
 

OnionPowder

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,323
Orlando, FL
Nintendo has a Humble Bundle page and you can purchase Nintendo games from Humble as well as indie and 3rd party games on Switch. I can also choose the digital option for games at Gamestop's webstore like Mario 3D All-stars or Kirby Star Allies, etc.

I'm gonna add on to this and say that Target always has cards up when I go. For some games I wouldn't expect either, like The Touryist.

3- it does. They can say digital stores can help them recuperate hardware costs. Apple devices are already sold at a profit.

People have pinged you about Nintendo, but this is really only applicable for launch. The PS4 has been sold at a profit for majority of it's lifespan as far as I'm aware. The cost of the hardware goes down over time, and the revisions they put out are usually even cheaper cost on top of that.
 

rntongo

Banned
Jan 6, 2020
2,712
Agreed.

A lot of people outside of this forum choose to pay a premium to live in a walled garden. I know that doesn't satisfy the core pc/android crowd's sensibilities, but it's a consumer choice when selecting hardware. It's way easier for me to stay in touch with family and manage their tech problems when they own Apple devices.

Yes, android, Windows and Linux are available platforms for those that don't want to deal with the walled garden. I prefer being on iOS. I understand if it was about improving the iOS store but saying they have a monopoly on their own store sounds a bit absurd. If they were taking half or even 40% of the developers cut, then I would take issue even as a consumer but 30% is reasonable for services that are used on the phone such as gaming. Its why the industry was happy with it the whole time. Use the Apple platform and ecosystem to make billions and give them 30% of earnings in return. The issue now is that competitors want to turn the iPhone into a streaming box for their services. What stops MSFT from streaming their own OS onto the iPhone if they can stream their own Game Store onto the system?
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
Yea, no one console has anywhere near the monopoly any of the listed companies does.
 

gillian03

Member
Oct 28, 2017
533
I mean we've already seen it though. From Sherlocking, to giving themselves exclusive access to things like SMS, NFC etc, to default app pushing, to lack of browser engine choice (and then underfunding development of that engine to make web apps less attractive), to helping themselves to 30% for hosting/payment that companies could get for much cheaper and then running their own competing services without that overhead, to randomly holding app app/update certification when they don't like you, certification rackets, developer lock-in. The list goes on. I think anyone who actually understands what's going would see that they routinely abuse it.

I think a lot of what you're saying pertains to the App Store. In order to make money off of it, a third party company needs to be certified by Apple and accept Apple's terms of agreements. I guess since the App Store is a marketplace - they don't necessarily have to help or allow any third party company to sell a product or license or service on their marketplace.

I would think that - THAT goes for pretty much every digital marketplace too. It's sort of a business partnership right? If a company wants to sell on a digital marketplace, then a relationship must be made. And if the marketplace host does not want to do business with another company, then they shouldn't be forced to do so.

It's certainly possible that Apple uses and abuses their power over their own App store though. I think the courts would have to investigate whether or not Apple's actions are within their rights as the marketplace host - and whether or not said actions are consistent with their own terms and agreements. To me, they've been fairly consistent. However, over the years we've seen a few exceptions - and I think these exceptions will be highly scrutinized by a court or judge.

I think with the Trade and Commerce laws right now - it would be difficult to prove that Apple has acted unreasonably to maintain its monopoly over its own marketplace. I mean, they're the ones who get to write the terms of agreements. And if a third party company decides to sign the agreement, then Apple is within their rights to act within the boundaries of that agreement.


EDIT: Apple even reserves the right to terminate their relationship with any company they choose to engage commerce with.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
At the end of the day, if you ascribe to the assertion that Apple has a monopoly "over its own store", it's difficult to deny that Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony don't also have similar monopolies.
 

Michilin

Member
Nov 14, 2017
1,370
Don't think many people here are reading the source so I have pasted this long excerpt from page 364 as a sample.

"During the Subcommittee's sixth hearing, Representatives Val Demings (D-FL) and Lucy McBath (D-GA) asked questions regarding Apple's conduct in 2018 and 2019 removing parental control apps from the App Store. In 2018, Apple announced its Screen Time app, a new feature bundled with iOS 12 that helped iOS users limit the time they and their children spent on the iPhone. Thereafter, Apple began to purge many of the leading rival parental control apps from the App Store. Apple explained the apps were removed because they used a technology called Mobile Device Management (MDM). The MDM technology allowed parents to remotely take over their children's phones and block content. Apple noted that MDM could allow the app developer to access sensitive content on the device.

According to The New York Times, the parental control apps using MDM had been offered in the App Store for years, and hundreds of updates to those apps had been approved by Apple. 2317 As a result, many apps were forced to shut down, 2318 although some were given a reprieve. 2319 Two parental control apps filed a complaint with the European Commission, alleging Apple's App Store policies were anticompetitive. The complaint alleged that as Apple purged competitors it introduced Screen Time, pre-installed Screen Time on iOS 12 and activated it by default, and gave Screen Time access to iOS functionalities it denied to competing third-party apps.2320

Subcommittee staff reviewed emails from parents who contacted Apple to complain about the removal of one of the purged parental control apps. 2321 They said that Screen Time was a comparably worse option for consumers—and described it as "more complicated" and "less restrictive" than competitors. 2322 In emails to the company reviewed by Subcommittee staff, parents complained about Apple's monopoly power over app distribution on iOS and self-interest in promoting Screen Time motivated Apple's actions. 2323 In response, Apple Senior Vice President Worldwide Marketing, Phil Schiller explained that Screen Time was "designed to help parents manage their children's access to technology." 2324 He added that Apple would "work with developers to offer many great apps on the App Store for these uses, using technologies that are safe and private for us and our children."2325

Internally, Apple's Vice President of Marketing Communications, Tor Myhren concurred, responding "[t]his is quite incriminating. Is it true?" to an email with a link to The New York Times' reporting. 2326 Apple's communications team asked CEO Tim Cook to approve a "narrative" in that Apple's clear-out of Screen Time's rivals was "not about competition, this is about protecting kids privacy."2327
Developers of the purged apps also contacted Apple, outraged that they had been removed from the App Store while other apps that used MDM remained. 2328 One developer explained it had invested more than $200,000 building its parental control app, then another $30,000 to fix the problem Apple identified, only to be told that Apple would no longer support parental control apps in the App Store.2329

Although Apple claimed its conduct was motivated to protect privacy and not intended to clear out competitors to Screen Time, Apple reinstated many of the apps the same day that it was reported the Department of Justice was investigating Apple for potential antitrust violations. 2330 Apple's solution to address privacy concerns was to ask the apps to promise not to sell or disclose user data to third parties, which could have been achieved through less restrictive means and without removing those apps from the App Store.2331

Developers of parental control apps asked Apple to "release a public API granting developers access to the same functionalities that Apple's native 'Screen Time' uses." 2332 Eventually, Apple did grant some apps access to APIs, 2333 but only after rival app developers were accused of being a risk to children's privacy, removed from the App Store, forced to incur significant costs, only for Apple to change its mind. 2334 As one developer noted, Apple's new MDM privacy policies resulted in "really nothing much changing from the developer side as far as the technology goes."2335

Here, Apple's monopoly power over app distribution enabled it to exclude rivals to the benefit of Screen Time. Apple could have achieved its claimed objective—protecting user privacy—through less restrictive means, which it ultimately did only after significant outcry from the public and a prolonged period of harm to rivals. 2336 Apple's conduct here is a clear example of Apple's use of privacy as a sword to exclude rivals and a shield to insulate itself from charges of anticompetitive conduct.

Subcommittee staff learned that Apple has engaged in conduct to exclude rivals to benefit Apple's services in other instances. For example, Mr. Shoemaker explained that Apple's senior executives would find pretextual reasons to remove apps from the App Store, particularly when those apps competed with Apple services.2337
Thank you! People here are way too fixed on Epic's spat instead of really looking into Apple practices against other developers.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
They have the same monopoly over their own platforms that Apple has over iOS.
It's the scale at which their platform dominate the field not how much control they have over their platform that determine a monopoly here, like even what Epic is doing with EGS isn't different from what Apple is doing in term of control, it's Apple share of the market that makes it a problem.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,128
Sydney
It's the scale at which their platform dominate the field not how much control they have over their platform that determine a monopoly here, like even what Epic is doing with EGS isn't different from what Apple is doing in term of control, it's Apple share of the market that makes it a problem.

Epic tried this exact argument in court last week and the judge pointed out you can buy Fortnite on Switch though.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Yea, no one console has anywhere near the monopoly any of the listed companies does.
Sony/Playstation probably has more than 50% marketshare on current-generation consoles (the numbers are hard to determine since Microsoft stopped reporting Xbox One sales). Apple's global marketshare in the phone space is something like 20%. Even in the US alone it's rarely quoted as being over 40%.
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
I have to say, it ALWAYS surprises me when Microsoft (reminder: the #1 or #2 most valuable company in the world) manages to skate under the eye of regulation and regulatory ire and political suspicion and public angst once again. They don't typically get lumped in with the rest of Big Tech, especially in a negative way.

This decision could have ramification for Xbox certainly, but hey. The house don't think they have a monopoly anywhere. Elizabeth Warren didn't talk about breaking them up... How do they do it..
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Why would Epic even want a separate App Store? Any reduction in fees feels like it would be overshadowed by the lack of advertisement on the main store.
Not everything need extra advertisement. In Fortnite and Epic's case, they already advertise, all they would need to do is add a EGS Store on iOS icon next to the other places to find Fortnite, Rocket League, and whatever else. Then when you have the EGS store on there you can start shopping or playing other games that they provide there too, maybe at a lower cost, or a benefit for a developer to make games for their mobile stores (less royalty cut).
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,548
It's the scale at which their platform dominate the field not how much control they have over their platform that determine a monopoly here, like even what Epic is doing with EGS isn't different from what Apple is doing in term of control, it's Apple share of the market that makes it a problem.

Epic is suing Google as well.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
Epic tried this exact argument in court last week and the judge pointed out you can buy Fortnite on Switch though.
But this is exactly why their argument failed, when it comes to video games market, not even Apple have a monopoly.

Sony/Playstation probably has more than 50% marketshare on current-generation consoles (the numbers are hard to determine since Microsoft stopped reporting Xbox One sales). Apple's global marketshare in the phone space is something like 20%. Even in the US alone it's rarely quoted as being over 40%.
The field in this case is video games over all, not consoles games and pretty sure Sony doesn't have more than 50% marketshare there(even if we're just talking consoles)!
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,128
Sydney
But this is exactly why their argument failed, when it comes to video games market, not even Apple have a monopoly.

Yes I agree that is potentially a big problem for Epic's case!

The monopoly abuse then comes from a platform manufacturer taking a 30% cut in revenue on it's own aftermarket. But the thing is, if the platform manufacturer's aftermarket is the market in question, that also applies to consoles.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
America hasn't done any thing serious about anti trust stuff in like 50 years. Like talk is cheap, lets see if anyone acts which I doubt they will
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
Console annual revenue was about $48 billion in 2019, App Store revenue was $50 billion (that's total revenue before the pie is divided between publishers and device manufacturers). Apple and the big three all get a cut of third party of 30% putting Apple at about $15 billion in revenue annually. The cut of revenue for the console makers is higher than 30% though because a significant amount of revenue goes to first-party titles where their cut is much higher, up to 100%. It's hard to make an exact 1-1 comparison because of this difference: Ninty for example makes HUGE revenue from first party games while Apple sells nearly nothing on the App Store. At the best case the App Store makes about as much revenue as the console business makes for MS, Sony, and Nintendo together.

It doesn't look to me like there's a huge difference in the size of these markets. In terms of profitability the consoles are probably ahead because they allow very few free games (meaning, not a demo tied to a paid game or a game with MTX) while Apple supports hundreds of thousands of 100% free apps that are pure cost to Apple.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,128
Sydney
Umm... If it wasn't clear, "Apple share of the market" in my post was referring to their monopoly as mentioned in this thread, ie "distribution of software apps on iOS devices", not video games.

Ok but if it is a violation of the Sherman Act to charge 30% in revenue in your aftermarket for software on a platform you manufacture, that's going to be a violation for console manufacturers as well.

If you are defining the market that way, consoles are in just as much trouble!
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
The field in this case is video games over all, not consoles games and pretty sure Sony doesn't have more than 50% marketshare there(even if we're just talking consoles)!
In the field of "general computing devices", Apple doesn't exactly have overwhelming market share either. As a platform for software, iOS is a pretty small player. A lot of this case hinges on the completely arbitrary determination of what the overall market is.

Sony reports PS4 at 100M+ units sold. 40-50 million reported for Switch. 40-50 million estimated for Xbox One. Among consoles, PS4 is definitely close to or approaching 50% market share.
 

Figments

Spencer’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,292
California
I don't understand this

IOS is a product made and owned by apple

Other mobile phone os's are available.

What's the issue?

the issue is mostly that apple has been found in the past to abuse their position as platform owner to harm competing products and services that also want to make use of that platform.

on another note:

epic's goal was never to create their own store on iOS as some claim. epic's goal was to force apple to turn the app store into free marketing for them.

anti-trust legislation would be null here if 1) apple allowed competing stores on iOS, 2) apple allowed users to download whatever they want from the internet and install it to their phones, 3) apple stopped bullying apps and services that directly competed with apple's own apps and services, 4) apple allowed users to set default apps for every function of their phones, etc etc etc.

i think if this becomes what is essentially the dissolution of the app store as we know it, that would be a net loss to both consumers and developers. there's a reason why people are more willing to spend money on iOS than android, and a move that would turn the app store into something more "open" would likely ruin that instead of help connect devs to the money they want from those customers.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
I'd additionally add that if your claim is that "Apple has a monopoly on iOS software distribution", you don't get to say that Sony's PS4 dominance is irrelevant because of Microsoft, Nintendo, browser games, mobile games, Steam, PC gaming, etc. You can't severely limit to scope of the Apple market to suit you definition of a monopoly, and then exaggerate the scope of the videogaming market to undersell Sony's control.
 
Jan 21, 2019
55
This is more about Apple abusing it's position as the platform holder in order to promote or sell its own products. They do this by using the TOS.

The ramifications of this will be more around products and services offered by Apple competitors and being able to have similar functionality to Apple products. Ie. Being able to buy a book through Kindle app. Apple not being able to block Xcloud.
 

LifeLine

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,779
The difference is that if you want to app, you have to use the App Store and they get a cut.

If you want a console game, you can use PSN/XBL or you can go the store or you can order directly from publishers.

which is why one is considered a monopoly and the other isn't. Obviously the existence of digital only consoles begin to threaten this.
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
People have pinged you about Nintendo, but this is really only applicable for launch. The PS4 has been sold at a profit for majority of it's lifespan as far as I'm aware. The cost of the hardware goes down over time, and the revisions they put out are usually even cheaper cost on top of that.
Yeah, that's fair. But again, it's far from a 1:1 model. Consoles do have walled gardens like mobile platforms, but they also have more options to buy their products. For them to be like iOS and Android, they'd have to stop having editions with disc drives, no option to buy digital codes for games (and I know Nintendo and Sony already have that in place, but not Microsoft), and also not have any deals with any companies (and Epic currently does deals with Sony and Microsoft all the time).

I'm not saying a lawsuit is impossible (I don't know enough about laws to give an opinion on that matter), only that you can't present the same case that Epic is using against Apple. They're not even using the same with Google.
 

Raftina

Member
Jun 27, 2020
3,621
I think it is worth pointing out that having a monopoly in and of itself is not illegal. Therefore, this doesn't necessarily help Epic, especially given that Apple already affirmed that yes they have exclusive control on the distribution of software on iOS so this isn't a proclamation Apple was even disputing.

It only becomes an issue if Apple is seen to be abusing that monopoly power.
While it is technically true that monopolies are not illegal in the US, it misses the reality of antitrust litigation. An antitrust case typically goes like this.

First, the plaintiff and the defendant argue about what is a meaningfully distinct market. Here, Epic would argue that iOS app distribution is a meaningfully distinct market onto itself, while Apple would argue that that iOS app distribution is merely a part of the larger app market that includes Android, Windows, etc.

Second, we go through a trivial exercise of establishing the defendant's market share. If we determine from step 1 that the market is iOS app distribution, then it is obvious that Apple has nearly 100% of it. Cases tend not to be quite so clear-cut, but this step tend not to be that much more complicated.

Third, the plaintiff and defendant argue about how much influence the defendant has over the market. While this can be a point of contention, in Apple's case it is obvious that Apple has nearly total influence over the market of iOS app distribution.

Lastly, the plaintiff and defendant argue over whether the defendant has abused the monopoly power.

Having Congress take your side on three of the four issues in dispute is enormously helpful.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
If you want a console game, you can use PSN/XBL or you can go the store or you can order directly from publishers.
Yeah, that's fair. But again, it's far from a 1:1 model. Consoles do have walled gardens like mobile platforms, but they also have more options to buy their products. For them to be like iOS and Android, they'd have to stop having editions with disc drives, no option to buy digital codes for games (and I know Nintendo and Sony already have that in place, but not Microsoft), and also not have any deals with any companies (and Epic currently does deals with Sony and Microsoft all the time).
Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft still collect huge royalties from games sold on discs, and still require those games to meet certification requirements. I think it's difficult to make that much of a distinction between software distribution on iOS and on consoles. If you could get iOS software by purchasing physical media, that wouldn't exactly solve the problem that developers have with the platform (especially given how increasingly reliant console/mobile developers are on In-App Purchases).