When a quarter of your lines include "I'm Danny Rand, the immortal Iron Fist" i'd want to phone it in too.
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Hot take: Iron Fist should be played by Lewis Tan in a soft reboot for the MCU
- Thread starter The Artisan
- Start date
When a quarter of your lines include "I'm Danny Rand, the immortal Iron Fist" i'd want to phone it in too.
I mean the OP said his preference is for the entire thing to get rebooted into the MCU proper, rather than keep the show as canon
All I needed from that show was a Daughter of the Dragons spin-off, but alas...
He seems like a well schooled actor who doesn't like acting very much.
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First two starring Asian superheroes I guess? Wong is practically an Avenger, and I learned from another thread that AoS has a superhero played by an Asian actress called Quake.
Well the article does go on to say "Tan, a half-Chinese, half-white actor, is the son of renowned martial artist and stunt coordinator Philip Tan. He was originally born in Manchester, England, but calls Los Angeles home, and can switch fluidly between British and American accents." I watched a MK interview with him and he sounded American too, so maybe he has a dual citizenship.
Oh I see. Well if that's the case then it kinda proves that this show continued to be bad even past the first season then.
hell yes. that was you in the James Gunn thread too right? Quake deserves a spot in the main MCU too with the same actress.Then bring Agents of SHIELD's Quake into the MCU too, so there can be more Asian American superheroes...
Win, win!
It is partially my own fault for waiting this long to post again in this thread, but for those of us who are thinking that it wouldn't work or just doubt how effective an Asian starring as Danny Rand would be, I'm just going to point out the vision that Lewis Tan himself had for the role. Because he's right, the show would have to be changed and it would be different from the get go if the main character's race was.
My consolidated response here is just to say: even if Lewis Tan is considered to be not a good actor - if he works hard and is really passionate about this role and had the chance to own, then in my opinion he deserves that chance. Not all actors had the same skill at portrayal throughout their career and a lot of them have shown great strengths in improvement. I believe Lewis Tan could too.
I liked Colleen Wing's part of the show. At least in the first season and in Defenders.
I suppose it depends on who you present your ideas to. But it is reassuring to see a lot of people responding positively to the thread's premise.
I agree with your post but I put in the OP that Lewis Tan himself is mixed heritage, Asian and white.
yep. a long time ago I heard people say that the dynamic of race wouldn't play out well with Luke Cage and Iron Fist if the latter wasn't white. but who says a dynamic of race couldn't play out in its own way if he was Asian?
I agree with this as well, but we have Ms. Marvel coming up on the way.
This is actually a great idea. Man I'm so hyped for Shang Chi. That's another role that Tan auditioned for.
There was actually a thread made about this, you know. I read the article and most of it seems to lean into Finn not wanting to train, not him unavailable for the time to train. Martial arts is an important aspect of the show, so they should have made time to have him properly trained if timing really was the issue."Finn Jones didn't even want to train or rehearse the action sequences"
That was not true, what happened was that the production was so rushed that he was working 14 hours a day, because he was the lead actor, and didnt have time to train
Iron Fist Stunt Coordinator Alludes to Finn Jones Not Wanting to Train
Nearly three years after Iron Fist was the first of five Marvel shows cancelled by Netflix, the [...]comicbook.com
"When I first moved over to New York, before I started actually filming, I had three weeks of very intense martial arts and weight training preparation. But then unfortunately once the show started, the filming schedule was just so tight – I was working 14 hours every day, six days a week, days into nights, nights into days – and actually my schedule didn't allow me to continue the training as much as I really hoped."
Further, his action scenes were way better in season 2, where production went smoothly
Iron Fist Stunt Coordinator Alludes to Finn Jones Not Wanting to Train Entertainment - Comics
https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/iron-fist-finn-jones-didnt-train-for-marvel-show-viral-tweet/ Tea is pipping hot. did Netflix or Disney call the shots on these production. Because if it was netflix it is interesting to compare them to full marvel control
www.resetera.com
The MCU has had its fair share of race bending already and most of the time it's well received, but then there are also instances of whitewashing. The Ancient One is probably the most infamous of all. The director back then said he was doing the lesser of two evils by casting someone white instead of Asian, but that was just he who decided that whitewashing is the lesser offense.
Strongly disagree with this. dancingphlower said it exactly how I thought it was; there was a lot of problems with the show and Finn Jones' casting was the cherry on top
Agreed. For many, was unintentionally how it felt with the actual Iron Fist show, and if they attempted to do it again but this time intentionally that doesn't necessarily mean the product will turn out well.
You know what, as an alternative take this might be a really good idea for reintroducing Iron Fist to the MCU. Have it be Colleen Wing and bring back Jessica Henwick for it.
Exactly - there are better experiments that Marvel could try out. Doing it with this show when the first shot at Iron Fist already resulted that way wouldn't bode well especially for a superhero that isn't as mainstream as the rest.
Mighty whitey huh? That doesn't sound quite as articulate as "white savior" but thanks. I didn't know there was a name given to the trope.I agree with everything you wrote!
Mighty Whitey - TV Tropes
A common trope in 18th and 19th century adventure fiction, when Europeans were visiting and documenting vast swathes of the world for the first time, Mighty Whitey is usually a displaced white European, who ends up living with native tribespeople …tvtropes.org
I find it upsetting that you had to post this article twice in the thread. It's an important piece.Because the origins of the character are rooted in orientalism and "mighty whitey" tropes as it relates to Asians. Making the character Asian and "reclaiming" the origin would alleviate that.
Why Should Netflix Have Cast an Asian-American Iron Fist?
It would have solved the problem of orientalism, for one.www.vulture.com
I wouldn't say Daredevil was "ok to pretty good" I'd say it is one of the best things and best series to come out of the MCU, and that's counting this year's Disney+ shows. I certainly would care to see Charlie Cox return as the character.
Im sure if Feige really likes someone that already showed up in some show, he would get a chance to at least audition if not outright just bringing someone back like the rumors regarding the Netflix Daredevil characters. What I've seen of the guy in Mortal Kombat and Wu Assassins its a hard pass for me.
That's just plain wrong.
He had the same voice actor as Michaelangelo (TMNT) and Beast Boy (Teen Titans) so I could never take the character seriously 😑
What kills me is that a lot of the people asking why we would want an Asian Iron Fist don't really care to understand why, they just want to throw it back in our faces and use comics or something as canon for why it shouldn't be.
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If Feige is involved at all with the casting process in the MCU, then he's probably aware of Lewis Tan's interest. He also auditioned for Shang Chi.
How so? I was just going by the logic presented by jotun? which makes sense. The first season's ratings were really low, season 2 had fewer critics reviewing it at all and while the ratings rose it was still fairly mixed.
It really makes me feel for posters who put together a long and well thought out OP, only for most of the participation to come from what seems like people just reading the title of the thread.
I read that Vulture article and it really hammers home why it would have been a win-win, and it also linked another article that started the petition from 5 years ago. I haven't read that one yet but I think it'd be worth it
The Artisan We don't need two bad actors portraying Iron Fist. Plenty of talented Asian actors out there.
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My response to you is kinda the same as what I've said before. I haven't seen Lewis Tan in a ton of stuff but if he works hard passionate about the role, then he deserves the chance to own it. Actors can improve their acting skills, we've seen it before.
Agreed. The excuse about how Danny is supposed to be the butt of all jokes as the white saviour (in the comics) is weak, and as Shang-Chi has shown, Marvel can and have the ability to rectify and create something new out of a series founded on Orientalism and stereotypes.
The missed opportunity to portray the Asian American experience that Lewis Tan was talking about is heart-breaking, and it could've at least portrayed what it's like for us Asians in the diaspora to those who have never had to think about their ethnicity or background.
Well, if I'm a Film/TV Producer I will politely laugh at your optimism. No offense, that's not how casting works.
The only reason they cast who they did previously in the role was solely because of Game of Thrones hype and he was one of the lesser talented actors on that show.
I guess I'm confused if you haven't seen much of his work, why are you so high on him being cast in this specific role? Seems weird.
But that's the thing. The Asian American experience is now represented in Shang Chi -- they literally altered his origin story for it. It's arguable that they *could* make a second character to tell more experiences about it, but that other unique experiences could an altered AsAm Iron Fist tell compared to Shang Chi?
This is why legacy characters are a good thing and its a shame that Marvel has more trouble getting them to stick than DC. Because they've successfully taken advantage of legacies already for a couple that did stick for the purpose of increasing the number of prominent women on their roster (Carol) or skirting around troublesome baggage (Scott).
Sucks that we won't get to follow up on it because of the fallout of everything that happened, but the first Atom we've seen in a film wasn't Ray Palmer, but legacy character Ryan Choi. Would have been first line for a solo film.
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Read the OP, then. I quoted Tan's pitch for the show which would have fundamentally changed it and I thought that would've been a great idea. A million times better than the premise we got.
I'm not against Asian America Iron Fist but I don't think Tan should get it just because he wants it. Dude was a lame Kung Lao (I know that's totally unfair).
He was more engaging in the hand full of interviews I've seen him in but I need to be convinced before we send Danny back to the wood chipper.
Maybe cameo in Shang Chi 2 before letting him get the full treatment. Kun Lun vs Ta Lo?
He was more engaging in the hand full of interviews I've seen him in but I need to be convinced before we send Danny back to the wood chipper.
Maybe cameo in Shang Chi 2 before letting him get the full treatment. Kun Lun vs Ta Lo?
Iron fist is actually pretty interesting as hero's go. Netflix was just a bad interpretation and the character was always cultural appropriation since it was a comic version of Kung-Fu. I would definitely be down with Marvel recasting the character and trying again. The multiverse gives them a rare opportunity to fix things and I love what they did with Shang-Chi and the 10 rings. Expand on it.
Also flipside I would really like to see a Asian version of Danny dating Misty Knight. A Asian man and black woman pairing is probably the rarest couple you'll see in the media.
Is there a limit on how many stories can exist about the Asian American experience? A rich Asian American Danny Rand being so far removed from his heritage would make for a different story than the one told in Shang-Chi.
Well there are many paths they can go with that:
- As Iron Fist is a title as opposed to a name, they could easily give that title to an original character from another part of Asia. As Shang-Chi is specifically Chinese, the mantle of Iron Fist could go to someone from South-East Asia, even South-Asia if Marvel were feeling adventurous.
- As Lewis Tan pointed out, his version of the character could've been able one discovering his roots. Shang-Chi, I believe, is more about confronting the past as he is acutely aware of his ethnicity and background. Lewis Tan's Iron Fist would've been an Asian who had no idea of what his ancestry was like, which in itself could've opened many interesting storylines. The theme of dual-identity is ripe for exploration - in fact dual identities IS what superhero comics are about.
- The Asian American/Westernised Asian experience is, like the community, not a monolith. A Chinese-American would have different experiences than that of an Indonesian-American or a Sri-Lankan-American, for instance.
Wouldn't this really just be continuously, and maybe unknowingly, typecasting Martial Artists as Asian? We just had Snake Eyes get changed from white to Asian. The MCU now has Shang Chi...but then another Asian lead as another Martial Artist? I'm not feeling it.
I think picking a half Asian half Caucasian actor isn't a bad way in - I think the op is focusing on Lewis because he can actually fight and is an actor.
Whoever marvel casts iron fist next (if they are even considering it) needs to be way better than the guy on the Netflix show
Although I wouldn't mind, it would be nice to have a different kind of Asian superhero the next time around. But most are locked away until mutants are allowed in the MCU and we're not getting the Amadeus Cho Hulk anytime soon. Who else is there that isn't a mutant or have a martial arts based skill/ability?
As for Iron Fist, I still don't know how to feel about introducing him. I use to feel threatened by the idea of Iron Fist because I feel like he could overshadow Shang Chi. With Shang Chi off to a great start though I don't feel that strongly anymore. But it's still kind of there though. Especially if they keep him as a attractive blonde white guy who is also rich, has actual powers, and an actual costume.
I haven't seen Shang Chi yet(I will in a bit), but if Iron Fist is coming and gets all that, my boy Shang better not had thrown away the 10 rings after using it at the end of the movie. Those things can come in handy to fight future big bads and will score him more style/cool points with MCU fans lol.
Yea, but that show was already made and it's done with. Why make a new show with him in the lead because he a made a pitch?
I'd rather have a solid actor in the role.
I'm not a big fan with depicting ultra-rich Asians on screen, TBH.
Well yes, all of these are possible alternatives, but again, the problem with the Iron Fist mythology is that he's a character rooted in Orientalism -- a lot of it draws from Central Asian myths of mystical paradises and such. The character can't really be transplanted to other Asian cultures because it would quite literally reinforce the idea of All Asians Are The Same. That's why the original story works so well -- because it's a generic Western person being confronted by these realities.
The best route is to either lean hard into examining white privilege in Asia, or just don't do Iron Fist -- and develop better characters for the Asian audience.
pretty much any argument to leave the existing iron fist behind and have a new one while maintaining cox daredevil is an argument i support
I'd argue the original story does not work well because at its heart it is a mighty whitey story where the white guy becomes a part of another culture and somehow becomes better at everything than the people who have been a part of it for 1000s of years.
But Iron Fist is usually depicted as a terrible Iron Fist though.
edit: And the plot can literally be him gaining the Iron Fist, but loses constantly, and the twist is that the real protagonist is someone else and he's just observing the story being made.
If you want an actor who can fight why not the guy from the raid and raid 2. And he seems to be a more experienced actor than the guy you mention.
Also the most famous iron fist story is one where he comes last place in a tournament of iron fists.
I mean, he wins a tournament but he's hardly the best at kung Fu. Shang chi is always depicted as better at kung Fu he just wasn't a part of the iron fist tournament (and he has no use for the iron fist likely anyways).
Also the most famous iron fist story is one where he comes last place in a tournament of iron fists.
Sure, but he still had to beat every other Asian in Kun Lun to get the Iron Fist though, which hardly seems plausible. Doctor Strange's origin kind of runs into this issue as well.
Within the context of the seven heavenly cities and the other Immortal Weapons yeah he's the worst Immortal Weapon, but even within Kun Lun he shouldn't have been able to beat everyone else in the city to obtain the Iron Fist.
That's true but would be true regardless of what race Danny was. I get changing his race for representation sake or for undoing the trope but it doesn't really fix that concern or make it any more believable in that way.
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Did you actually read the OP? I'll concede and say let's just agree to disagree if you did, but based on your post here it doesn't sound like you did. Since Lewis Tan was the one who auditioned for the role and he particularly had the idea of bringing an Asian American into a foreign Asian culture to rekindle the protagonist's roots, I suggested him for the thread title. Sure any solid actor can portray that story, but the fact that it came from him tells me that he's passionate about the idea and telling the story would be important to him as an Asian actor.
What exactly doesn't make the story more believable if Danny was Asian?
Also, I am not sure if it would be true regardless of what race Danny was, because Kun Lun has a lot of Asian influence in its inception. And if I recall correctly, getting into it can only be accessed from the continent of Asia. Bringing back Lewis Tan into the fold and how the story can be about the Asian American feeling like the outsider and struggling to fit in to where his heritage lies.
asian diaspora come from all walks of life and experience all kinds of different forms of alienation growing up. half-asians do not live the same experiences, immigrants and the children of immigrants do not live the same experiences, there are poor asian families and rich asian families. it's patronizing as fuck to tell people 'well you have your movie now'. personally? i don't. iron fist as pitched by tan wouldn't even be 'my movie' but i understand how many stories that the asian experience can tell and shang chi is not even going to cover the half of it.
we're not a monolith, and it's really depressing to boil down 'the asian american experience' into one character or movie, while at the same time defending iron fist as a schlubby white dude as if that is such a kaleidoscope of different storytelling opportunities.
Whether Danny is Asian American or white American or any other kind of westerner he is at a disadvantage compared to those originally from kunlun.
Yep that's the only angle he needs. Being an outsider. Which is just as prescient if not more-so when the character looks like the people of Kun'Lun but is still made to feel like an outsider.
Just ignore Iron Fist and go forward with the Colleen Wing and Misty knight series that Patton Oswalt wants to do.
She is pretty much the new Iron Fist by the end and would be a great female Asian hero. So forget Danny we don't need him.
The Iron Fist is a mantle that's been passed down to many different people throughout the generations, we can absolutely have a new Iron Fist that isn't Danny Rand.
I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying that all AsAm experiences are the same, but rather what kind of story would an AsAm or Asian Iron Fist tell that would be unique as compared to existing characters, especially with Shang Chi. I explained this further in another post, in specific detail about how Iron Fist is specifically written as a problematic Orientalist character. That kind of narrative is not easily translatable to other Asian ethnicities, let alone any ethnicity aside from a privileged white person.
The counter argument may be that Shang Chi's origin story was changed, so why not Iron Fist? The problem with this counter argument is that Shang Chi had decades of comic book lore to rewrite his origins and themes from their problematic origins -- Shang Chi was originally half-white too -- to the point where modern Shang Chi does not actively reference his origins.
As an Asian person, I feel that Iron Fist shouldn't be adapted, period. I would prefer that they lean in to the white privilege themes, but Hollywood doesn't have a good track record of addressing these themes well. If they do want to adapt Iron Fist, then the current status quo with Colleen Wing could work as it acknowledges the origins while simultaneously having a fresh start.
Yeah, this will definitely work. Minority and women led, acknowledges the origins but having a fresh start at the same time.
I'm all for making Danny Asian or ditching him altogether. I do think there's story potential lost in ditching Danny, but I highly doubt the MCU would actually explore that story potential anyway. There's no point in keeping him as is in the hopes that the MCU may use him to explore white savior, mighty whitey, his privilege, etc.
Yep, I just don't see the point of Danny and a male Iron Fist anymore. Shang Chi fills the same niche now and Colleen Wing would be a great way to bring more female Asian characters while also providing a fresh take on the Iron Fist character.
Pretty sure this take is absolutely ice cold:
www.thewrap.com
Why Twitter is Upset That Lewis Tan Wasn't Picked to Play 'Iron Fist'
The actor, who appeared as a villain in episode 8 of the Netflix/Marvel series, talks about "missed opportunity"
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But racebending him into being an Asian American character is how the story can be told about a person with roots in Kunlun. It isn't as effective as any other kind of westerner and as a white American - at least with the Netflix product - it comes off as both the white savior trope and the mighty whitey trope.
Hard disagree. There is an effective story that can be told with an Asian Danny Rand who may look like the rest of Kunlun but still feel and is treated like an outsider. That's the story of someone not only realizing their potential but reconnecting with their heritage.
wow. I knew there was disappointment for not casting an Asian actor, but I didn't knew this extended to Lewis Tan specifically too. But even then in that article it highlights how some people defending casting a white man as the lead too.Pretty sure this take is absolutely ice cold:
Why Twitter is Upset That Lewis Tan Wasn't Picked to Play 'Iron Fist'
The actor, who appeared as a villain in episode 8 of the Netflix/Marvel series, talks about "missed opportunity"
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Right but whether it is a trope or not does not make it more or less believable. Instead of a mighty whitey he is just a mighty westerner. I was simply replying to state that there is nothing inherently more believable about an Asian American coming from Overseas to become iron fist than there is anyone else coming from overseas to become iron fist.
