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Hot Take Incoming: I cannot imagine a worse fate than being married to Betty post Don.

Sunster

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,006
Betty (of course) has every right to be upset about Don and it's perfectly understandable for her to have long lasting scars from their marriage and his abuse. This is a surface level, shitpost thread only not a serious "let's judge Betty" take.

That being said, let's talk shit. Betty seems to be (by s4e10) to be the most draining character to be around. literally every time she's onscreen it's "I'm upSET" or slapping Sally silly for no reason. Like when the FBI came and asked her a few routine questions about Don. She called him up and acted like she had just been through a severe hardship. Literally all she did was say, "Yes. No. Of course."

When Sally ran away to be with Don and didn't want to go back home, screaming "I hate it there!" that was one of the most relatable and real things I've seen in this show. I could truly feel for a moment just how absolutely cold and miserable it must have been living with Betty and Henry.

7am is the beginning of the holiday get together with my whole family and this is the last time I'll see many of them before i move to the other side of the Earth indefinitely in July soooo I'm up re-watching Mad Men.
 
Gambit

Gambit

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Oct 27, 2017
1,176
Poor Henry was not to envied, but it did give us Sally. By far the most mature Draper and future spin-off protagonist.

Otherwise I didn't dislike Betty. Especially at the end when she's going to college.
 
Buttzerker

Buttzerker

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Oct 25, 2017
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Feel like you could have opened with the fact this was about Mad Men

Was really confused til the last line there
 
wenis

wenis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,100
Also if we're being canon about the whole thing, John Hamm is rocking a major hog in the pants, ergo, Don has the same tool set. That's a lot for the next husband to live up to. Good luck Henry Francis (a dude with two first names, you know he's compensating for something)
 
KarmaCow

KarmaCow

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Oct 25, 2017
9,151
I do wonder how much of that was planned out, making her a reflection of Joan as another woman born in the wrong decade, or if it was just January Jones having no range.
 
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Sunster

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,006
KarmaCow said:
I do wonder how much of that was planned out, making her a reflection of Joan as another woman born in the wrong decade, or if it was just January Jones having no range.
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yeah Betty acts like it's 1945 forever. Surprised she didn't raise her hand when she wanted to talk at the dinner table.
 
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Sunster

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
10,006
gforguava said:
Being Betty married to Don.
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Huncho_Houdini

Huncho_Houdini

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Dec 31, 2017
7,084
wenis said:
Also if we're being canon about the whole thing, John Hamm is rocking a major hog in the pants, ergo, Don has the same tool set. That's a lot for the next husband to live up to. Good luck Henry Francis (a dude with two first names, you know he's compensating for something)
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Yeah but he couldn't even get it up that one time.
 
XaviConcept

XaviConcept

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Oct 25, 2017
4,895
Had a hard time disliking her after the cancer diagnosis, really well fleshed out character by the end
 
Cipherr

Cipherr

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Oct 26, 2017
13,420
She took the entire show to really even out, but she eventually did. I agree with her being much more easy to take by the time the cancer diagnosis hit, but damn, that was the very end.

Probably a sign of an excellent arc for a character tbh. She suffered a lot though.


Still hurts man.
 
Nameless

Nameless

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Oct 25, 2017
15,334
Imagine spurning Dr. Faye, though, only to turn right around and impetuously marry Megan. IMO that's a far bigger L/worse fate than Henry getting stuck with Betty. Don had perfection, a woman who actually saw him as well as his bullshit clearly and made him a better person, and he let it go for...



Also Roger roasting him the next day was everything. Still makes me giggle thinking back on it. Damn I miss Mad Men. GOAT Show hands down.
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
Henry Francis was a piece of shit warmongering Nixonite. Even Betty didn't deserve that.

Off-topic, I only recently learned that Glen was played by Matt Weiner's son, and...what the fuck, dude.
 
f0rk

f0rk

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Oct 25, 2017
1,694
Henry Francis really loved her though. I don't normally cry at shows but the scene where he bursts into tears in Sally's room is so sad.
 
N64Controller

N64Controller

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Nov 2, 2017
8,325
Cipherr said:
She took the entire show to really even out, but she eventually did. I agree with her being much more easy to take by the time the cancer diagnosis hit, but damn, that was the very end.

Probably a sign of an excellent arc for a character tbh. She suffered a lot though.


Still hurts man.
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Yeah that scene was something.

"I know ..."

This whole sequence, man, holy shit. The call with Peggy was something also. She clearly thought he was going to kill himself.
 
A More Normal Bird

A More Normal Bird

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Nov 14, 2017
2,322
I once took one of those "which character are you?" quizzes for Mad Men and got Anna Draper, which is obviously a fantastic result that I was very pleased with, so I shared it on social media. A friend got Betty and called me a cunt for sharing a quiz that made them hate themselves and tbh they were right to do so.
 

Deleted member 25606

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I thought Betty was as trash as Don and one of the most important arcs on the show was the daughter maturing with a very clear sense of what she wasn't going to become, namely like her parents.

That said Don was the problem in the marriage and regardless of how she behaved during or after, the blame for any of that even becoming reality to begin with is Don.

She was a wreck but getting caught up in Hurricane Draper didn't help or the fact they were two kids deep and it was an era when many more women were dependent as she was.

It's one reason I really hold Mad Men in high esteem. There are no good guys or bad guys, just flawed humans and the level of depravity you can reach if you give into those flaws.
 

Deleted member 18360

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Out of curiosity I took the Buzzfeed quiz and got Joan which I don't think is right lol. Like believe me I wish I were that confident.

I sort of like Betty and always found her weirdly easy to empathize with (or maybe it was pity). Like she's trying to do everything 'right' just as she was taught but it's not really working and she's in suburban hell with her primary male relationship being with a philandering gaslighting asshole which maybe out of some inner turmoil often causes her to cling to her predefined role even more viciously. Also she probably had clinical depression at various points and though she surely scarred Sally she also seems to try to change to not be so miserable and is at the end of the day ostensibly the parent for Sally and I respect that. Don is useless outside of advertising (which is itself arguably useless).
 
Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
8,139
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Betty's a... complicated character (in a great way). She's a spoiled little princess that realizes her dream life was deeply unfulfilling yet is unable (by her age, her upbringing or both) to support feminism/women's liberation movement. She's stuck, knowing that "the way things have always been" leads to unbearable amounts of frustration and unhappiness - yet unable to let go of the same tradition, wanting to belong, desperate for happiness and self-realization but trying to find them in the places that tradition and society has selected for her instead of trying to forge a new path for her.

I think she probably envies Joan (a similar "in-between generations" character with a great arc) but is terrified of taking a similar path, and she probably considers Peggy completely unfathomable and alien. And her opinion on Megan... IIRC it went from childish resentment to a slightly solemn pity, when she realized Don was pretty much going to drain his new wife and leave her emotionally destroyed - which, if we're honest, is some great development on her part. She finally grew out of the petty "I HATE him!" phase and saw Don for who he is - a human wreck with some deep-seated issues that need to be fixed by him and him alone instead of a mother/savior female archetype.

And considering her own spoiled childhood, the societal gender-role pressure and her toxic marriage to Don, I'm not surprised she's a bad mother. She's a handful of issues and, at times, her own daughter ends up behaving more mature than her. She lashes out at Sally because she's unable to deal with her own shit and because she literally doesn't know how to act with her kid otherwise. And I wouldn't be surprised if she sees Sally as her own reflection at times, so when she lashes out at Sally, she's also lashing out at herself.
In any case I agree that the cancer diagnostic did wonders for her as a character - that's a lot of development in quite a short time. Her final scenes were incredibly emotional (especially her goodbye to Sally) and it somehow "redeemed" her after being a bit lost in the wilderness for a while. She grew up, even if it was too late - and she went out in her own terms. Hell, she even took that leap forward that she used to be afraid of.

So... yeah. Wonderful, complicted, irritating, insufferable, pitiable and resonant character. As most of Mad Men's characters tend to be.
 

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Altazor said:
Betty's a... complicated character (in a great way). She's a spoiled little princess that realizes her dream life was deeply unfulfilling yet is unable (by her age, her upbringing or both) to support feminism/women's liberation movement. She's stuck, knowing that "the way things have always been" leads to unbearable amounts of frustration and unhappiness - yet unable to let go of the same tradition, wanting to belong, desperate for happiness and self-realization but trying to find them in the places that tradition and society has selected for her instead of trying to forge a new path for her.

I think she probably envies Joan (a similar "in-between generations" character with a great arc) but is terrified of taking a similar path, and she probably considers Peggy completely unfathomable and alien. And her opinion on Megan... IIRC it went from childish resentment to a slightly solemn pity, when she realized Don was pretty much going to drain his new wife and leave her emotionally destroyed - which, if we're honest, is some great development on her part. She finally grew out of the petty "I HATE him!" phase and saw Don for who he is - a human wreck with some deep-seated issues that need to be fixed by him and him alone instead of a mother/savior female archetype.

And considering her own spoiled childhood, the societal gender-role pressure and her toxic marriage to Don, I'm not surprised she's a bad mother. She's a handful of issues and, at times, her own daughter ends up behaving more mature than her. She lashes out at Sally because she's unable to deal with her own shit and because she literally doesn't know how to act with her kid otherwise. And I wouldn't be surprised if she sees Sally as her own reflection at times, so when she lashes out at Sally, she's also lashing out at herself.
In any case I agree that the cancer diagnostic did wonders for her as a character - that's a lot of development in quite a short time. Her final scenes were incredibly emotional (especially her goodbye to Sally) and it somehow "redeemed" her after being a bit lost in the wilderness for a while. She grew up, even if it was too late - and she went out in her own terms. Hell, she even took that leap forward that she used to be afraid of.

So... yeah. Wonderful, complicted, irritating, insufferable, pitiable and resonant character. As most of Mad Men's characters tend to be.
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This is a really good post that I agree with.
 
Altazor

Altazor

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umop 3pisdn said:
This is a really good post that I agree with.
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Thanks :)

Something I forgot to mention and I will add: the fact that her "dream life" wasn't even *her* dream - it was imposed by gender roles. She wanted to be a model and she was, for a while - I'm sure she would've wanted to do more. And yet she became a stay-at-home mom raising three kids, seemingly living a perfect life but filled with regrets and frustration.
 
danm999

danm999

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Best episode of the series is when Sally realises both her parents are awful emotional vampires and doomed each other to a joyless marriage for things neither of them could give each other.

Being married to either of them would be hell and I don't know how Megan or Henry did it. Well Megan didn't for long I suppose.
 

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Altazor said:
Betty's a... complicated character (in a great way). She's a spoiled little princess that realizes her dream life was deeply unfulfilling yet is unable (by her age, her upbringing or both) to support feminism/women's liberation movement. She's stuck, knowing that "the way things have always been" leads to unbearable amounts of frustration and unhappiness - yet unable to let go of the same tradition, wanting to belong, desperate for happiness and self-realization but trying to find them in the places that tradition and society has selected for her instead of trying to forge a new path for her.

I think she probably envies Joan (a similar "in-between generations" character with a great arc) but is terrified of taking a similar path, and she probably considers Peggy completely unfathomable and alien. And her opinion on Megan... IIRC it went from childish resentment to a slightly solemn pity, when she realized Don was pretty much going to drain his new wife and leave her emotionally destroyed - which, if we're honest, is some great development on her part. She finally grew out of the petty "I HATE him!" phase and saw Don for who he is - a human wreck with some deep-seated issues that need to be fixed by him and him alone instead of a mother/savior female archetype.

And considering her own spoiled childhood, the societal gender-role pressure and her toxic marriage to Don, I'm not surprised she's a bad mother. She's a handful of issues and, at times, her own daughter ends up behaving more mature than her. She lashes out at Sally because she's unable to deal with her own shit and because she literally doesn't know how to act with her kid otherwise. And I wouldn't be surprised if she sees Sally as her own reflection at times, so when she lashes out at Sally, she's also lashing out at herself.
In any case I agree that the cancer diagnostic did wonders for her as a character - that's a lot of development in quite a short time. Her final scenes were incredibly emotional (especially her goodbye to Sally) and it somehow "redeemed" her after being a bit lost in the wilderness for a while. She grew up, even if it was too late - and she went out in her own terms. Hell, she even took that leap forward that she used to be afraid of.

So... yeah. Wonderful, complicted, irritating, insufferable, pitiable and resonant character. As most of Mad Men's characters tend to be.
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You said this better than I ever could, it's the strength of Mad Men, the character depth, study, and analysis is really complex for a scripted cable television drama.
 
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Sunster

Sunster

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Oct 5, 2018
10,006
Altazor said:
Betty's a... complicated character (in a great way). She's a spoiled little princess that realizes her dream life was deeply unfulfilling yet is unable (by her age, her upbringing or both) to support feminism/women's liberation movement. She's stuck, knowing that "the way things have always been" leads to unbearable amounts of frustration and unhappiness - yet unable to let go of the same tradition, wanting to belong, desperate for happiness and self-realization but trying to find them in the places that tradition and society has selected for her instead of trying to forge a new path for her.

I think she probably envies Joan (a similar "in-between generations" character with a great arc) but is terrified of taking a similar path, and she probably considers Peggy completely unfathomable and alien. And her opinion on Megan... IIRC it went from childish resentment to a slightly solemn pity, when she realized Don was pretty much going to drain his new wife and leave her emotionally destroyed - which, if we're honest, is some great development on her part. She finally grew out of the petty "I HATE him!" phase and saw Don for who he is - a human wreck with some deep-seated issues that need to be fixed by him and him alone instead of a mother/savior female archetype.

And considering her own spoiled childhood, the societal gender-role pressure and her toxic marriage to Don, I'm not surprised she's a bad mother. She's a handful of issues and, at times, her own daughter ends up behaving more mature than her. She lashes out at Sally because she's unable to deal with her own shit and because she literally doesn't know how to act with her kid otherwise. And I wouldn't be surprised if she sees Sally as her own reflection at times, so when she lashes out at Sally, she's also lashing out at herself.
In any case I agree that the cancer diagnostic did wonders for her as a character - that's a lot of development in quite a short time. Her final scenes were incredibly emotional (especially her goodbye to Sally) and it somehow "redeemed" her after being a bit lost in the wilderness for a while. She grew up, even if it was too late - and she went out in her own terms. Hell, she even took that leap forward that she used to be afraid of.

So... yeah. Wonderful, complicted, irritating, insufferable, pitiable and resonant character. As most of Mad Men's characters tend to be.
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this take is too good for my shitpost thread but i totally agree
 
Altazor

Altazor

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Oct 25, 2017
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Sunster said:
this take is too good for my shitpost thread but i totally agree
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Hahaha sorry for going 2deep2serious4u in this thread but an opportunity to talk about Mad Men is always a good opportunity to seize.

In any case I don't necessarily disagree with ya on how miserable it must've been in that house... I just think that for all his faults (being a traditionalist, staunch conservative for example) Henry was pretty much a decent guy -for the setting, not in 2019- who was sort of overwhelmed by Betty's myriad issues but who still stood by her, whether because of his belief in traditional marriage and how it was supposed to look from the outside, or because she actually loved her despite the issues... or both. He was, at least, better than Don's emotional vampirism and ridiculous amounts of manipulation, even if he wasn't perfect himself.

It's a testament to Sally's character that she managed to come out mostly unscathed from her parents' incredibly toxic marriage and then the miserable state of Betty's life with Henry after the honeymoon period ended.
 
Liquid Plejades

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God, I miss this show.

Still the best thing ever put on TV for me. And just one of the best examples of storytelling and character development overall.
 
Opto

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Don cheated on Betty their entire marriage, got the lowdown from her psychiatrist, and expected her to be the perfect housewife to keep up the illusions he built up. I'd turn pretty shitty too
 

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Altazor said:
Betty's a... complicated character (in a great way). She's a spoiled little princess that realizes her dream life was deeply unfulfilling yet is unable (by her age, her upbringing or both) to support feminism/women's liberation movement. She's stuck, knowing that "the way things have always been" leads to unbearable amounts of frustration and unhappiness - yet unable to let go of the same tradition, wanting to belong, desperate for happiness and self-realization but trying to find them in the places that tradition and society has selected for her instead of trying to forge a new path for her.

I think she probably envies Joan (a similar "in-between generations" character with a great arc) but is terrified of taking a similar path, and she probably considers Peggy completely unfathomable and alien. And her opinion on Megan... IIRC it went from childish resentment to a slightly solemn pity, when she realized Don was pretty much going to drain his new wife and leave her emotionally destroyed - which, if we're honest, is some great development on her part. She finally grew out of the petty "I HATE him!" phase and saw Don for who he is - a human wreck with some deep-seated issues that need to be fixed by him and him alone instead of a mother/savior female archetype.

And considering her own spoiled childhood, the societal gender-role pressure and her toxic marriage to Don, I'm not surprised she's a bad mother. She's a handful of issues and, at times, her own daughter ends up behaving more mature than her. She lashes out at Sally because she's unable to deal with her own shit and because she literally doesn't know how to act with her kid otherwise. And I wouldn't be surprised if she sees Sally as her own reflection at times, so when she lashes out at Sally, she's also lashing out at herself.
In any case I agree that the cancer diagnostic did wonders for her as a character - that's a lot of development in quite a short time. Her final scenes were incredibly emotional (especially her goodbye to Sally) and it somehow "redeemed" her after being a bit lost in the wilderness for a while. She grew up, even if it was too late - and she went out in her own terms. Hell, she even took that leap forward that she used to be afraid of.

So... yeah. Wonderful, complicted, irritating, insufferable, pitiable and resonant character. As most of Mad Men's characters tend to be.
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this post captures part of why Mad Men is the best show ever for me.

also that scene where Bobby tells Sally he has stomach aches all the time from being in that house? oof, i felt that. poor kid.
 
crimsonECHIDNA

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Sunster said:
Betty (of course) has every right to be upset about Don and it's perfectly understandable for her to have long lasting scars from their marriage and his abuse. This is a surface level, shitpost thread only not a serious "let's judge Betty" take.

That being said, let's talk shit. Betty seems to be (by s4e10) to be the most draining character to be around. literally every time she's onscreen it's "I'm upSET" or slapping Sally silly for no reason. Like when the FBI came and asked her a few routine questions about Don. She called him up and acted like she had just been through a severe hardship. Literally all she did was say, "Yes. No. Of course."

When Sally ran away to be with Don and didn't want to go back home, screaming "I hate it there!" that was one of the most relatable and real things I've seen in this show. I could truly feel for a moment just how absolutely cold and miserable it must have been living with Betty and Henry.

7am is the beginning of the holiday get together with my whole family and this is the last time I'll see many of them before i move to the other side of the Earth indefinitely in July soooo I'm up re-watching Mad Men.
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Shame for leaving out the most damning thing about Betty, that emotional affair she was carrying on with that kid Glen.
 
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