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TooFriendly

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,028
Is Cthulu evil? Hastur? King in Yellow and all that?

Or are their concepts of life and death so beyond your tiny minds that you cannot understand the infinite??!!

We have such sights to show you, where we're going you don't need eyes to see... ect.

Cthulhu may be beyond the understanding of humans (which is also the description of the God of the Abrahamic religions) but that doesn't mean that they are beyond the human definition of evil.

Those entities want to assert control over, or just completely wipe out life on earth for their own selfish ends, despite any suffering they might inflict. Now you might try and equate humans to mere bacteria compared to the infinitely more complex minds and plans of a great old one like Cthulhu, but the fact is that even lowly human draw the line on inflicting pain and suffering on an entity that can sense it. Those that choose to not draw that line are called evil. So to go down that line of reasoning you basically have to be saying that the human concept of 'evil' does not exist, so the whole question is irrelevant.

The lovecraftian entity Azathoth is not evil imo, because it is not aware of what it is doing, it is basically physics. Whereas an entity like the coenobites know exactly what they are doing, and derive pleasure from trapping people (despite them consenting at first perhaps) and then torturing them forever, even when they ask for it to stop. If a person acted like that, would they be evil? Um, yes.

Azathoth for reference:
"Azathoth, sometimes referred to as the "Blind Idiot God", is a dreaming monster whose dream is where the universe resides. Azathoth is completely unaware of anything going on in the dream; hence his title. Azathoth also shifts in his slumber, causing reality to change. He is the most powerful entity, according to Lovecraft, closely followed by his grandson Yog-Sothoth, and is the creator and ruler of the Outer Gods."
 

-shadow-

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
In the first two? No they're neutral and admit it by mentioning being seen as both angels and demons based on your perspective. From 3 and on, yeah they're just in it for the kill and nothing else.

I should rewatch the series though, it's been a while...
 

bill crystals

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,079
Even in the first movies they seem to revel in doling out their tortures. Certified evil IMO. Pinhead's always got a real smug satisfaction about him.
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
DisloyalUnsightlyHammerkop-size_restricted.gif
The implication becoming a Cenobite also means you start making bad puns.
 

Osu 16 Bit

QA Lead at NetherRealm Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,923
Chicago, IL
Using flowery language to describe yourself as beyond the concept of good and evil or whatever doesn't actually mean you're neutral. Not many people think they're evil. Like Charles Manson ranted about stuff like that. It doesn't make it true.
 

Aske

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,573
Canadia
They're not super big on consent. Even if "it is not hands that call us, it is desire" Pinhead doesn't let people withdraw consent when he has his hooks up in them, and is waffling on about how pleasure and pain are the same thing.

Also, the cenobites give Kirsty a pass in the first movie, but make it clear that it's an exceptional circumstance; then in Hellraiser 2 they straight up try to keep her in Hell to torture forever, even though she's just there to try and save her dad and has 0 interest in Pinhead's antics.

AND THEN in Hellraiser 3, when Pinhead gets out of the pillar, her straight up murders a bunch of people by choice, even though they're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I ain't no big city lawyer, but seems to me that fits most people's definition of evil.

Now, perhaps his mental state (tortured for decades) absolves him of wrongdoing because he's incapable of recognizing that he's hurting people, but he definitely presents as a man of sound mind who knows he's being a dick to others.

By contrast, Kayako: totally not evil. She's as cursed as any of her victims.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,733
The outlines for the new Hellraiser movie were bonkers, I have no idea how they'd do the CGI for all the shit they wanted to pull.

In the Barker books Pinhead is literally a priest in Hell's clerical order, and ends up being killed by Lucifer because Pinhead stole his armour, woke up Lucifer and pissed him off. He's basically an evil priest that takes over Hell.
Well his remains kinda survive
and he blinds one main char and rapes the other to death. He gets obliterated by something along with hell after.
 

SpankyDoodle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,082
4 was the last to get a theatrical release, but they've kept making them. Judgement came out in 2018.
Oh wow, damn. I would initially think that meant it still had a following but after reading the Wikis to the game one and the found footage one, it sounds like some of the sequels were literally thrown together just to keep the rights or fulfill contracts lmao. When's the next one due out?

I read the description of that one after my first post and... NOPE
The Wiki's description of the plot is so confusing. Did I understand it right that it's meta, and the Hellraiser movies exist within the universe of the movie, and they're playing a game based on it? Smfh.

The outlines for the new Hellraiser movie were bonkers, I have no idea how they'd do the CGI for all the shit they wanted to pull.
Ooo what were they? Did it get cancelled?

This whole thread is so dangerous cause I just know someone's gonna say something or I'll read a Wiki about something that'll cross the line for me but I'm so curious. I hate it!
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,733
Ooo what were they? Did it get cancelled?

This whole thread is so dangerous cause I just know someone's gonna say something or I'll read a Wiki about something that'll cross the line for me but I'm so curious. I hate it!
Well it's not new, it's Origins from 2013. But it was like before an Armageddon and our time, our "god" was just an evil monster, there were huge torture barges and stuff like that.
 

SpankyDoodle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,082
Well it's not new, it's Origins from 2013. But it was like before an Armageddon and our time, our "god" was just an evil monster, there were huge torture barges and stuff like that.
Oh good grief lol

So is the draw of Hellraiser movies just seeing people get tortured and mutilated? Or is it the Cenobites? I assumed that each new movie had new Cenobites in it and that was the draw, watch the new flick to see the new monster and how it does its monster thing, but the couple Wiki entries I read it sounds like there's just a core group of Cenobites that always show up? Or is that just because the Wikis are poorly written summaries that don't go into detail about stuff.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,733
Oh good grief lol

So is the draw of Hellraiser movies just seeing people get tortured and mutilated? Or is it the Cenobites? I assumed that each new movie had new Cenobites in it and that was the draw, watch the new flick to see the new monster and how it does its monster thing, but the couple Wiki entries I read it sounds like there's just a core group of Cenobites that always show up? Or is that just because the Wikis are poorly written summaries that don't go into detail about stuff.
Pinhead was like a human priest for a faction and then his wife and kid get killed in a coup so he goes on a murder revenge spree.


Hellraiser: Origins
takes place in a pre-biblical world where man and the older gods walk the same scorched earth. Pinhead is a human ambassador, the ruler of the Cenobites and master of the largest citadel in the land. He forces shards of metal into his chakra points as a method of meditation. After a coup attempt that sees Pinhead's daughter and wife murdered, the Hell Priest seeks a relic that will grant him power over both a King God and a Deviant God. It culminates in an original Armageddon that sees Pinhead's domain collapsed into "Leviathan's seed". Millennia later, toymaker Phillip L'Merchant discovers the "seed" in a peddler's wagon; the peddler asks: "What's your pleasure, Sir?"

There's like a really long video going over the plot but I forgot why I hesitate linking it, idk if the channel owner is a conservatives or anti sjw, maybe he isn't and I'm maligning the guy for no reason, I'll check tomorrow, it's 3:55am.
 

Lord Fanny

Banned
Apr 25, 2020
25,953
Depends on the film. In the first two, they weren't evil, at least the original four, it's made pretty explicitly clear. That one dude who got transformed at the end of the two seemed like he was, though.

After that, it varies from film to film
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Using flowery language to describe yourself as beyond the concept of good and evil or whatever doesn't actually mean you're neutral. Not many people think they're evil. Like Charles Manson ranted about stuff like that. It doesn't make it true.perhaps

Yeah, perhaps deciding whether someone is good or evil based entirely on their own word isn't the best of ideas, especially if that someone is a Satan-worshipping demon that tortures people for fun.
 

Carnby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,236
"They don't believe in evil," "they're beyond such concepts," "they're really more of a neutral."

200.gif


Playing with a Rubik's cube is not consent to be tortured, y'all.

You're right but also incorrect. It's proven in Hellrasier 2 that solving the puzzle doesn't mean you are killed. A young girl who is good with puzzles is tricked into solving it. When pinhead arrives he says "it's not hands that call us, it is desire." Then he goes looking for the person who is really responsible.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
 

ReginaldXIV

Member
Nov 4, 2017
7,784
Minnesota
I barely remember the later movies, but I would consider them neutral in the grand scheme of morality. They're a passive presence, and only do their thing if someone seeks it out and desires it.
 

Host Samurai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,160
I saw some Hellraiser comic lore in my YouTube feed so I kinda went into a rabbit hole. Apparently there's another Hell with a different set of centobites.
 

Li Kao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,729
Lack of book talk breaks my heart.
I would maybe have agreed to the lawful evil thing if not for their debatable position on intent. If you solve the puzzle by chance you are in as much shit as someone who wants to.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
I barely remember the later movies, but I would consider them neutral in the grand scheme of morality. They're a passive presence, and only do their thing if someone seeks it out and desires it.

That isn't true though. You don't seek it out or desire it.

It would be like saying you were not evil if you chopped off the genitals of someone delivering a package to your door.

"The fuck dude! I was just dropping off a package!"
"That is the sign that makes you agree to having your genitalia removed. You chose this!"

no. Evil as fuck.
 

UshiromiyaEva

Member
Aug 22, 2018
1,681
Even if you were to say they were at best neutral in the original story (which is tenuous at best as other posters have pointed out) by the time you get to 3 onward, Pinhead is just doing it for kicks, definitely evil
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,756
The outlines for the new Hellraiser movie were bonkers, I have no idea how they'd do the CGI for all the shit they wanted to pull.


Well his remains kinda survive
and he blinds one main char and rapes the other to death. He gets obliterated by something along with hell after.

I haven't read Scarlet Gospels in years, so I just remember it ending with
Lucifer flying/crashing through the sky in Hell, which was a massive, giant stone slab, sending it crashing down on Hell to kill errything.
 

JasonV

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,967
"They don't believe in evil," "they're beyond such concepts," "they're really more of a neutral."

200.gif


Playing with a Rubik's cube is not consent to be tortured, y'all.

I think you need intent for the Cenobites to torture you; the girl in 2 who opened the box was left alone.

AND THEN in Hellraiser 3, when Pinhead gets out of the pillar, her straight up murders a bunch of people by choice, even though they're just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I ain't no big city lawyer, but seems to me that fits most people's definition of evil.

From what I remember in 3, that "pinhead" was not the Pinhead from 1 and 2, who was killed by the Dr. It was whatever was left over, essentially a monster.
 

HeavenlyOne

The Fallen
Nov 30, 2017
2,351
Your heart
Using flowery language to describe yourself as beyond the concept of good and evil or whatever doesn't actually mean you're neutral. Not many people think they're evil. Like Charles Manson ranted about stuff like that. It doesn't make it true.

This. It's like asking is a serial killer evil?. I'm not sure it matters to their victims.

In the original novel "The Hellbound Heart" , the way they were described I saw them as people into some fucked up shit who were searching for like-minded folks to join them or victims to brutalize. Kirsty solved the box in ignorance but they were still going to take her.

In the movie they were more like horror movie monsters and much less chatty. The movie series is kinda all over the place but they basically became literal demons from Hell. The Scarlet Gospels is more of a continuation of / inspired by the movie series mythology, with Pinhead as the Hell Priest, whereas the "pinhead" cenobite wasn't even the main one in the original novel.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,733
I haven't read Scarlet Gospels in years, so I just remember it ending with
Lucifer flying/crashing through the sky in Hell, which was a massive, giant stone slab, sending it crashing down on Hell to kill errything.
Yeah that happens after he rapes Norma to death and blinds Harry. Him and the rest of hell then get obliterated by I assume Lucy since he said he'd do it.