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Markratos

Hermen Hulst's Secret Account
Member
Feb 15, 2020
2,915
But whether certain subjective elements are the most relevant factor depends on the person, doesn't it? That's the whole point. If someone hated the story, and they're able to justify their reasoning, and the story was THEIR most important factor, then they will not have liked the game. Doesn't mean they'll rate it a 3/10 or something, but they can't possibly give it a 9/10 based on their reasoning.
Each person is different, but if you look at any cultural product, there is usually a consensus among the critics, because there are factors that can be analyzed objectively. That is why there are products that are considered masterpieces or genre definers.
 

Shemhazai

Member
Aug 13, 2020
6,457
Then it makes less sense for her to be able to climb one cliff, but arbitrarily not be able to climb another.
I've not see the cliffs that she can't climb so can't make a judgment on that. Just bored of people using the lazy argument of "why do you want realism in a game with robot dinosaurs" as if it makes any sense beyond being a meaningless "gotcha" statement.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
Each person is different, but if you look at any cultural product, there is usually a consensus among the critics, because there are factors that can be analyzed objectively. That is why there are products that are considered masterpieces or genre definers.
Your understanding of objectivity is flawed.

Just because the majority of people consider something to be good, doesn't mean it is objectively.

And just because there is a consensus doesn't absolutely mean that anything objective has been highlighted or even considered.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,392
Can't believe one review has derailed the thread to the point the "reviews should be objective" debate is happening. There are objective elements to a game like frame rate, resolution, number of features etc. But someone's opinion of if any of that amounts to anything good is subjective.

If you think a review makes bad points and comes to a conclusion you don't agree with just ignore it. Why spend so much time on it, in this case it's in the 4% minority.
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,809
Each person is different, but if you look at any cultural product, there is usually a consensus among the critics, because there are factors that can be analyzed objectively. That is why there are products that are considered masterpieces or genre definers.

I don't agree with this. Simply because there is consensus when a lot of games are announced. So it's nothing to do with what's actually in a game that hasn't been made yet.
 
May 14, 2021
16,731
I've not see the cliffs that she can't climb so can't make a judgment on that. Just bored of people using the lazy argument of "why do you want realism in a game with robot dinosaurs" as if it makes any sense beyond being a meaningless "gotcha" statement.
How is it a gotcha? Video games are about fun. Being able to go wherever you want is fun. I'll grant you that BOTWs free climbing often looks stupid, but ACs free climb shows you can pull it off in a way that looks good and is incredibly fun without the need for pre-placed handholds. Regardless, this is a huge step up over the original and I applaud them for listening.
 
Dec 9, 2018
20,966
New Jersey
People still realize the game has a 89 on Metacritic, right? Most critics love the game. Some think it's a bit too formulaic/derivative of the previous game. Nobody is trashing the game. Relax.
 

TooBusyLookinGud

Graphics Engineer
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
7,937
California
Can't believe one review has derailed the thread to the point the "reviews should be objective" debate is happening. There are objective elements to a game like frame rate, resolution, number of features etc. But someone's opinion of if any of that amounts to anything good is subjective.

If you think a review makes bad points and comes to a conclusion you don't agree with just ignore it. Why spend so much time on it, in this case it's in the 4% minority.
It always happens. I'm so glad that I don't put much into reviews or I would have missed a lot of games that I found great and they crushed them.
 

scatrapper

Member
Nov 25, 2021
237
You should penalize a product when it is a technical disaster, it is a clear way to objectively analyze it. Then there are other factors that come into play such as gameplay, design, etc.
At what point have I said that you should give a product a higher grade for its development time? lol
Why are you talking about 'objectively analysing'? Are you like an audiophile that wants computerized measurements of framerates and v-sync issues and decides whether or not the product is worthy of your purpose? That's a good idea dude. I'd call that a hole in the market you could fill! As I said, there is a pretty big community of audiophiles rating what they listen to through measurements, and they are objective.

Others would like constructed opinions on why something is or isn't for themw, which, for a fact, cannot, and should not aspire to be objective.

Edit: I think we're being trolled.
 

MrBob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,668
I came into this thread to read some reviews, and it got derailed off of one review?

Any way to report an entire thrread, clense it, and start over? Good grief, this is embarrssing for this forum.
 
Mar 8, 2018
1,161
It would do some people good to read this essay by writer Tevis Thompson, specifically the section on the cult of objectivity in game reviews.

It's exactly a reviewer's job to speak for the minority. A minority of one. How could a reviewer speak for anyone else? They aren't elected to stand in for some demographic, and the review community is not a representative democracy. Every time I see a reviewer try to speak for the average player, the fabled everygamer, I see a dodge. An unwillingness to put himself out there and state his values, an attempt to hide in the crowd and submit to the majority. I see not a reviewer sensitive to his audience but a reviewer cowed.

Even for those who have the sense to speak for themselves, there is a more pervasive problem. This is the call, posed a thousand different ways, for objectivity. Isn't BioShock Infinite objectively a good game? Doesn't it have good graphics and sound, play well enough, provide interesting characters and themes? I mean, let's be reasonable here. Let's be fair. Irrational put a lot of time and money into this after all. Most of your criticisms are just based in your personal biases. They're just your interpretations. At least you have to admit it's a lot better than most games out there.

Here's what I'll admit: many boys have a really hard time with subjectivity. To grapple with your own subjectivity is to grapple with the subjectivities of others. It's to see the world not as legible, stable, conquerable but as resistant, shifting, and fundamentally unknowable. It diminishes your certainty and authority. It leaves you vulnerable. This is a human problem, being a person among persons, but one that many boys have trouble admitting even the basic tenets of. And so they call for an objectivity that has no foundation except received opinion, that seeks to diminish individual experience, and that turns out to not even exist.

Objectivity is very convenient for the straight white middle class male gamer. Videogame culture encourages him to see his own subjectivity as the standard, as objective. He'll invoke science, economics, statistics, and all manner of folk wisdom to defend his little kingdom. He'll decry any challenge as 'politics' or 'bad business' or 'whining' or 'here we go again'. He never considers how often objectivity is a cover for a dominant subjectivity, for a subjectivity that stays in power by not being recognized as such. He fears what will happen if the established order breaks down and the Vox take control.

This cult of objectivity has it exactly backwards. They want it to be one way. But it's the other way. A good review is openly, flagrantly, unabashedly subjective. It goes all in with the reviewer's biases. It claims them for what they really are – not tastes, not mere opinions, but values. It is a full-throated expression of one person's experience of a game. This is the authority it claims – the player's. And how could it be any other way? How can a reviewer get outside him or herself?

Some might admit that objectivity doesn't exist but that it's still an ideal to shoot for. It is, after all, a worthy goal to try and get outside yourself and see things from other perspectives. But chasing objectivity to achieve this is, again, entirely upside-down. You do not connect to the world outside, to the world of others, by suppressing or negating yourself. You do so by fully being yourself and recognizing just who that person is. A good reviewer knows that none of our values are settled, that the game community is actually in thrilling flux, despite the placid surface of its reviews. The only way to change how we talk about games is to encourage a plurality of voices, revel in their diversity, and be honest about our own subjectivity among them.

TLDR: We should be celebrating and interrogating minority opinions, especially around big AAA games like Horizon FW, instead of casting them down for not adhering to some unspoken perceived consensus. Let the Stevivor guy live.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,261
Unresponsive Gameplay, level design, bad AI... There are many factors at play, that's why in the studios there are so many professionals who put their effort into it.

Those aren't objective otherwise no one would have liked The Last Guardian because Trico's AI was made difficult to deal with on purpose.
 

Javier23

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,904
this is embarrssing for this forum.
07B89120-B48D-45FB-AF1D-49AF6CD16790.jpeg
 

ianpm31

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,529
If I was only reading this thread I would have thought HFW landed in the very low 80s upper 70s range but instead it's 1pt from 90.
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,781
How is it a gotcha? Video games are about fun. Being able to go wherever you want is fun. I'll grant you that BOTWs free climbing often looks stupid, but ACs free climb shows you can pull it off in a way that looks good and is incredibly fun without the need for pre-placed handholds. Regardless, this is a huge step up over the original and I applaud them for listening.
Video games are about interactivity and a means of expression through mechanics or otherwise.
"Fun" is a subjective by-product of the medium because it can mean different things to different people.
 

Shemhazai

Member
Aug 13, 2020
6,457
How is it a gotcha? Video games are about fun. Being able to go wherever you want is fun. I'll grant you that BOTWs free climbing often looks stupid, but ACs free climb shows you can pull it off in a way that looks good and is incredibly fun without the need for pre-placed handholds. Regardless, this is a huge step up over the original and I applaud them for listening.
Again, I'm not making an argument about the wall climbing, I'm a different person to who you were arguing with. I'm saying your statement was meaningless and disingenuous as an answer to pretty much anything. It was like saying "Why can't they put jetpacks in Lord of the Rings, why do you want realism in your book with orcs in".

edit: Also video games can be fun, but that's not the only thing they're about. Same as books, movies and music.
 
May 14, 2021
16,731
Again, I'm not making an argument about the wall climbing, I'm a different person to who you were arguing with. I'm saying your statement was meaningless and disingenuous as an answer to pretty much anything. It was like saying "Why can't they put jetpacks in Lord of the Rings, why do you want realism in your book with orcs in".
No, that would be hyperbole. Expecting someone like Aloy to be able to scale cliffs isn't asking a lot and it doesn't stretch credulity given her other abilities. The fact that she couldn't even clamber in the first game was just ridiculous given her skill set.
 

Kumquat

Member
Jan 23, 2018
781
User Banned (1 day): Attempting to discredit media outlets for console wars
Looks like about 4 reviews hit it with a 60ish rating. If not for those it is easily 90+. There is no way this game rates at a 60%. We know what those reviewers are doing and it's sad that a few reviews like that can trash the average that hard.
 

Praxis

Sausage Tycoon
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,232
UK
Looks like about 4 reviews hit it with a 60ish rating. If not for those it is easily 90+. There is no way this game rates at a 60%. We know what those reviewers are doing and it's sad that a few reviews like that can trash the average that hard.

It's sad the average matters at all, but here we are
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
Looks like about 4 reviews hit it with a 60ish rating. If not for those it is easily 90+. There is no way this game rates at a 60%. We know what those reviewers are doing and it's sad that a few reviews like that can trash the average that hard.
Expressing their opinions?

Not everyone enjoys games like this mate, as strange as that may seem to you. Others like it but consider it flawed. Your console war style posts are as ridiculous as all the others ITT.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,261
No, that would be hyperbole. Expecting someone like Aloy to be able to scale cliffs isn't asking a lot and it doesn't stretch credulity given her other abilities. The fact that she couldn't even clamber in the first game was just ridiculous given her skill set.

And Spider-Man should be able to walk through the interiors of every building in NYC but that isn't an option for obvious reasons. A lot of things don't make it into a game even if "logically" they should. In HZD Aloy should have been able to do more than just swim along the surface of the water considering her capabilities but it wasn't an option in the game. Not everything is needed just to sate some desire for realism.
 
May 14, 2021
16,731
And Spider-Man should be able to walk through the interiors of every building in NYC but that isn't an option for obvious reasons. A lot of things don't make it into a game even if "logically" they should. Aloy should have been able to do more than just swim along the surface of the water considering her capabilities but it wasn't an option in the game. Not everything is needed just to sate some desire for realism.
It wasn't a desire for realism. It was so that I wouldn't have to trek a mile horizontally in order to progress a few feet vertically. One way is fun. The other way is just lame.
 

VanWinkle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,089
Breath of the Wild:
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The Last of Us Part II:
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Horizon Forbidden West:
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I think we're going to be alright, everybody.
 

Deleted member 22750

Oct 28, 2017
13,267
Looks like about 4 reviews hit it with a 60ish rating. If not for those it is easily 90+. There is no way this game rates at a 60%. We know what those reviewers are doing and it's sad that a few reviews like that can trash the average that hard.
Let's say you use a 4 point scale and really dislike this game
Your adjusted review score could be 1/4 = 25/100 or even 2/4 = 50/100 and it's still the opinion of the reviewer

It's just too bad metacritic is held so high

Whole situation is laughable
 

GTVision

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,068
I came into this thread to read some reviews, and it got derailed off of one review?

Any way to report an entire thrread, clense it, and start over? Good grief, this is embarrssing for this forum.
To be fair though, probably the vast majority of the posts are from people responding to the few ones that expressed their disappointment that the game didn't reach a 90+ metacritic score. But yeah, it's embarrassing to read through a thread like this nonetheless.