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Oct 25, 2017
1,223
This argument doesn't make any sense at all. Trump won by what? ~100,000 votes? There's definitely more than 100,000 people who voted for Bernie. No, that's not enough to win a primary.

I'm saying this Bernie-or-Bust group that people are so worked up over is a negligible demographic. They probably wouldn't have even voted for Bernie if they woke up late or were too tired or whatever. All these blue-no-matter-who threads paint this villain for the potential loss but are missing the obvious demographic to appeal to and that's moderates/undecideds. But of course it's easier to poke fun at young people and twitter trolls than it is to try to sell Joe Biden to the middle. Like, go do productive canvassing work instead of whatever this thread is. Just more unnecessary feel good moralizing.
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
You know if you can't give someone any other reason to vote for Biden than "He's not Trump" ad nauseum even when they say "This won't work", that honestly says more about your opinion of Biden than anything else. Like really? You can't use any other strategy to get people to vote for Biden other than "He's not Trump"? Is that how low your opinion of Biden is?
What would work then? I'm genuinely curious. How would you convince people that have gone full "Biden has dementia because the alt-r
Maybe when people are telling you their identity you should stop talking over them and telling them you know what's good for them. Just a thought. People are telling you that your argument about privilege is wrong and you just bulldozer over it because it doesn't fit your worldview.
Does their identity make them immune? Is it like how the Conservative mouthpiece in Sweden is Kurdish so it's fine when he says there's no racism?
WHat would you prefer me to call it rather than entitlement then? Idealism-unto-death? Because it's what it is, and I'm sorry if I come off as bulldozing but I am angry and frustrated because the majority of my American friends are parts of groups that Trump has fucked over for four years and would absolutely do so again.
I listened to trans friends crying when he was elected because they figured out early what he'd bring. And that means I have zero tolerance for people who claim that Biden is as bad or that four more Trump years won't matter.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,602
That poster asked if kids would be in cages. They were, in fact, in cages in the Obama administration. But I'm sure the administration who bragged about record high deportations would have a VP who actually cares deeply about immigrants.
Yes, *technically*, which is why I said misleading, not false. But your attempt to equivocate the two eras, as though they were equal in number, injustice, and scale, is a pathetic and outright slanderous attempt to "both sides" the situation, which is *literally what Republicans do as a first line of defense*.

"Obama generally refrained from prosecution in cases involving adults who crossed the border with their kids," said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law. "In contrast, the current administration has chosen to prosecute adult border-crossers, even when they have kids. That's a choice — one fundamentally different from the choice made by both Obama and previous presidents of both parties."
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
No to the kids in cages because he already did in the 90s. He was the centerpiece of the crime bill that saw 100,000s of African-American youths locked up both directly and indirectly , some being charged as adults and are still in prison today. I mean you can't get much harsher than the 1990s crime bill . The same man who was picked by Barack Obama because he appeal to those rasict ass Democrats.
And the same man who other posters here have pointed out have changed.
People do, and while he should own up to his luggage Biden of today ain't really the Biden of -98 or whenever that old letter being toted was from.
Alternatively we can hope Sanders surges up and grabs the nomination. I'd preferred Warren myself but whatever works.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,175
Yes, *technically*, which is why I said misleading, not false. But your attempt to equivocate the two eras, as though they were equal in number, injustice, and scale, is a pathetic and outright slanderous attempt to "both sides" the situation, which is *literally what Republicans do as a first line of defense*.

If you don't like that, wait until you hear me talk about the drone strikes under the Obama administration!
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
I'm saying this Bernie-or-Bust group that people are so worked up over is a negligible demographic. They probably wouldn't have even voted for Bernie if they woke up late or were too tired or whatever. All these blue-no-matter-who threads paint this villain for the potential loss but are missing the obvious demographic to appeal to and that's moderates/undecideds. But of course it's easier to poke fun at young people and twitter trolls than it is to try to sell Joe Biden to the middle. Like, go do productive canvassing work instead of whatever this thread is. Just more unnecessary feel good moralizing.
What are you talking about? First off, the Bernie-or-Bust group is doing their best to amplify their voice about how Biden = Trump so you might as well not vote for him. Personally, I think it's more important to shut their voices down than try to persuade them. They obviously won't change their mind, but their rambling endangers the entire country as, and I'll say this again, Trump wants to force people back to work in the middle of a pandemic. If one less person is persuaded by people enabling Donald fucking Trump, then I'm happy.

And anyway, if you don't think Biden is doing a good job appealing to moderates, go dig through the Primary OT. He's doing such a great job that people are not only calling him moderate and centrist, but they've even said he's a Republican!
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
And the same man who other posters here have pointed out have changed.
People do, and while he should own up to his luggage Biden of today ain't really the Biden of -98 or whenever that old letter being toted was from.
Alternatively we can hope Sanders surges up and grabs the nomination. I'd preferred Warren myself but whatever works.
Oh yes a different man at the youthful age of 55. We must excuse racism of a man because people don't want to come to terms that they are voting for a man who fucked over millions of black people and poor. The irony no it is the reality of being in America
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
lol what? We can't express our exasperation at Biden as a candidate now even if we're voting for him? Do we have to kiss his feet?

If Biden loses it's because Not Trump is an ineffective campaign slogan. Biden has to earn votes, it's his job as a candidate. If there are key demographics he needs to beat Trump, he should be making concessions to them to lock their vote. If there aren't, then it's no problem, right?
No, but not toting around Alt-Right talking points or using the "#notmyexcitement!" like it's worth something might work for them. Criticize away, point out how he could do better.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,466
Sweden
obviously vote for biden over trump

it just sucks that the candidate is so bad as biden. uninspiring, insufficient policies, clearly senile. people are understandably not excited and it makes sense that people would want another candidate because they see the de facto candidate as a huge risk that trump gets reëlected
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
Oh yes a different man at the youthful age of 57. We must excuse racism of a man because people don't want to come to terms that they are voting for a man who fucked over millions of black people and poor. The irony.
My mom went from Christian "Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" to "People should be allowed to love whoever they want as long as they're consenting adults and it isn't the place of religion to say otherwise!" in the span of two years after 60 because she stopped to consider.
People change, even if their pasts doesn't. And if the option is either A or B, you have to decide which is the lesser evil.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,223
What are you talking about? First off, the Bernie-or-Bust group is doing their best to amplify their voice about how Biden = Trump so you might as well not vote for him. Personally, I think it's more important to shut their voices down than try to persuade them. They obviously won't change their mind, but their rambling endangers the entire country as, and I'll say this again, Trump wants to force people back to work in the middle of a pandemic. If one less person is persuaded by people enabling Donald fucking Trump, then I'm happy.

And anyway, if you don't think Biden is doing a good job appealing to moderates, go dig through the Primary OT. He's doing such a great job that people are not only calling him moderate and centrist, but they've even said he's a Republican!

It's not about persuading them. It's about ignoring them. Do you hear yourself? Shut down their voices. It's social media; you will never shut down their voices. This thread is just 6 pages of people going "wow really? these fucking busters." What is the point of this thread? What is the point of getting so worked up trying to go after them when they just keep ignoring you and posting their tweets. The whole Dem side this election run has been this general sense of frustration from everyone and that's not whats going to get people on your side. Go signal boost his policies, go signal boost positive articles, go signal boost anything other than this online fuming. Sometimes it feels like this side has already started justifying their loss.
 

Deleted member 8644

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
975
Does their identity make them immune? Is it like how the Conservative mouthpiece in Sweden is Kurdish so it's fine when he says there's no racism?
WHat would you prefer me to call it rather than entitlement then? Idealism-unto-death? Because it's what it is, and I'm sorry if I come off as bulldozing but I am angry and frustrated because the majority of my American friends are parts of groups that Trump has fucked over for four years and would absolutely do so again.
I listened to trans friends crying when he was elected because they figured out early what he'd bring. And that means I have zero tolerance for people who claim that Biden is as bad or that four more Trump years won't matter.
Lmao that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you should shut up about privilege when you don't know the first thing about the people you're arguing with and try to listen to what marginalized people are telling you regarding their concerns.
Your argument went from "everyone who says this is privileged" to "when they're not they don't know what's good for them"

For the record I agree that you should vote for Biden over Trump, but you're going about this in an awful awful way.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
No one is entitled to anyone's vote. It's a candidate's job to convince others to vote for the nominee and build a coalition.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
What would work then? I'm genuinely curious. How would you convince people that have gone full "Biden has dementia because the alt-r

Like, probably his policy? Obviously no, you're not going to convince many people who you think have gone too far gone, but go with his record? Like the man's been a senator for decades. If you can't find one good thing (you can find multiple good things, I've checked), then you don't really have much confident in Joe than those who don't support him. Like come on, you should not have to rely on people who don't like Joe Biden to give you information on why you should vote for Joe Biden (also, yes I'm voting for him in November in the likely event he wins so don't try and paint me as someone who won't vote in November).

Here, I'll throw the easiest example, he co-sponsored the Violence against Women Act, which protects women who are abused. Look for policy and start there. You can find legit reasons to support Joe beyond "he's not Trump".
 

Lost Knight

Member
Mar 17, 2019
944
West Virginia
Less people will die, less people will be harmed, more things any left leaning person would want will be accomplished under Biden than Trump. Biden will help this country get better, he will make progress, and carry the baton to the next democrat, let it be AOC or Buttigieg in 2024/2028

He wouldn't do any of the stuff that would save lives, so voting for him isn't going to be as much of an improvement as you think it is. So really this won't make less people suffer.

If you pledge war against someone, you also always pledge support for his enemy and the goals of the enemy. Which usually makes you worse than the someone you pledge a war against.

Oh, so you're using "if you're not with us you're against us" bullcrap? That's not how you engage with people.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,123
He wouldn't do any of the stuff that would save lives, so voting for him isn't going to be as much of an improvement as you think it is. So really this won't make less people suffer.
even with how much shit biden is, he would tackle this pandemic way better than trump, don't kid yourself.

low bar, I know, but a rather important low bar.
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
Lmao that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you should shut up about privilege when you don't know the first thing about the people you're arguing with and try to listen to what marginalized people are telling you regarding their concerns.
Your argument went from "everyone who says this is privileged" to "when they're not they don't know what's good for them"

For the record I agree that you should vote for Biden over Trump, but you're going about this in an awful awful way.
No, my first post was about how some of the "leftists" on Era( I put it in Quotation marks because I find them at best to be immature Forum Revolutionaries) were entitled because of their focus on class as the defining problem and didn't care of shit about PoC or LGBTQ-rights.
Then a bunch of people jumped out and pointed out they belong to minorities. Like that doesn't play in at all to my first post? Yeah, I stated I think most of the ones acting like it are entitled and white in my second post of the day. But that's it. And I don't care about what's good for THEM. I care about being a decent enough human being and not vote for literal fascism because of ideals were hurt.

Like, probably his policy? Obviously no, you're not going to convince many people who you think have gone too far gone, but go with his record? Like the man's been a senator for decades. If you can't find one good thing (you can find multiple good things, I've checked), then you don't really have much confident in Joe than those who don't support him. Like come on, you should not have to rely on people who don't like Joe Biden to give you information on why you should vote for Joe Biden (also, yes I'm voting for him in November in the likely event he wins so don't try and paint me as someone who won't vote in November).

Here, I'll throw the easiest example, he co-sponsored the Violence against Women Act, which protects women who are abused. Look for policy and start there. You can find legit reasons to support Joe beyond "he's not Trump".
Would it work against people who willfully spread baseless alt-right talking points though?
Like, when I see a colleague on Facebook pushing alt-right bullshit here in Sweden I know that pointing out the truth isn't gonna help. Because narratives are a thing.
But, yeah. Thank you for providing me with some sound advice, I genuinely appreciate it.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
My mom went from Christian "Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve" to "People should be allowed to love whoever they want as long as they're consenting adults and it isn't the place of religion to say otherwise!" in the span of two years after 60 because she stopped to consider.
People change, even if their pasts doesn't. And if the option is either A or B, you have to decide which is the lesser evil.
See I'm black right and I don't really do the people change bs too good because it doesn't really matter to me. You can say me you love black people today but last month you call me the n-word. Falls on deaf ears. your past actions will always speak louder than your present words because actions speak louder than words. It is just more excuses. Especially for someone like joe who has done nothing to atone for the tragedies he's committed
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Also, you can't just go and tell people who say they won't vote for Biden "fuck you, vote for him". That kind of abrasiveness will make people dig their heels in, no matter how misinformed you may think they are. They know, and they're not stupid; they're mad. You have to approach them with the understanding that they don't want Biden any more than they want Trump, and remind them what's at stake without acting like you're about to drive an actual stake into their heart. Gaslighting and coercing people into voting is never going to work; it didn't with Clinton.

Very much this, there is plenty of time until November to bring people around without pulling the same aggressive shaming bullshit from 2016.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
It's not about persuading them. It's about ignoring them. Do you hear yourself? Shut down their voices. It's social media; you will never shut down their voices. This thread is just 6 pages of people going "wow really? these fucking busters." What is the point of this thread? What is the point of getting so worked up trying to go after them when they just keep ignoring you and posting their tweets. The whole Dem side this election run has been this general sense of frustration from everyone and that's not whats going to get people on your side. Go signal boost his policies, go signal boost positive articles, go signal boost anything other than this online fuming. Sometimes it feels like this side has already started justifying their loss.
I'm not arguing with them over Twitter. I'm spending a good amount of time on here going over how stupid a lot of their claims are. There's a lot of impressionable young people on here that are interested in the political process. I'm trying to point out that bad faith arguments/conspiracies like Biden has dementia are in fact as stupid as they appear and should not be reflective of said process.
 

Not a Horse

Member
Aug 15, 2018
344
even with how much shit biden is, he would tackle this pandemic way better than trump, don't kid yourself.

low bar, I know, but a rather important low bar.

How do we know he isn't patient zero?

eSnvIla.jpg
 

Memento Mori

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,865
If the coronavirus is still active in November how do you even hold an election? It's not in republican interests to increase postal voting. I can envision a scenario where democrats stay at home because they don't want to get infected and Trump convinces his base there's nothing to fear by voting.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
If the coronavirus is still active in November how do you even hold an election? It's not in republican interests to increase postal voting. I can envision a scenario where democrats stay at home because they don't want to get infected and Trump convinces his base there's nothing to fear by voting.
You're assuming he's gonna have much of a base left by November. He's trying to march them to their deaths so that the stock market will go up. I HOPE that blue states enforce their lockdowns longer, but I'm sure what will happen is a blue state will get everything under control and then someone taking a vacation in said blue state causes another outbreak.
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
See I'm black right and I don't really do the people change bs too good because it doesn't really matter to me. You can say me you love black people today but last month you call me the n-word. Falls on deaf ears. your past actions will always speak louder than your present words because actions speak louder than words.
But what if they have genuinely changed?
What if they woke up and realized "Holy hell I've been a monster. I have to change." It happens, not often I'm afraid as a lot of people don't realize how bad they've behaved.But it can happen.
Which, funny...Is sort of an argument I had on Reddit with a self-proclaimed Revolutionary. People cannot change. It is impossible. Even if that spits in the face of experience and human history.
But fair enough, Biden has a luggage that means he cannot earn your vote.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,223
Remember when the old site was like third leading traffic link to the Hillary policy website? Where's that energy now? How many people in any of the politics threads here are discussing actual Biden policies? You guys spend so much time on the defensive, fuming over people posting videos of Biden walking off camera in a livestream or trailing off in the middle of a sentence; accusing people of being alt-right trolls, Russian interference, privileged, secret Trump supporters. The Democratic nominee is everyone's 3rd/4th/5th pick... just because some people don't fall in line as quickly as some of you did, doesn't mean that the election is lost. Stop playing defense and be proactive about supporting your nominee. Your tired, boring, dishonest nominee.
 

Akainu

Unshakable Resolve
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,242
Everywhere and nowhere
You know if you can't give someone any other reason to vote for Biden than "He's not Trump" ad nauseum even when they say "This won't work", that honestly says more about your opinion of Biden than anything else. Like really? You can't use any other strategy to get people to vote for Biden other than "He's not Trump"? Is that how low your opinion of Biden is?
I believe that was one of his own wife's arguments.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,123
But what if they have genuinely changed?
What if they woke up and realized "Holy hell I've been a monster. I have to change." It happens, not often I'm afraid as a lot of people don't realize how bad they've behaved.But it can happen.
Which, funny...Is sort of an argument I had on Reddit with a self-proclaimed Revolutionary. People cannot change. It is impossible. Even if that spits in the face of experience and human history.
But fair enough, Biden has a luggage that means he cannot earn your vote.
you should change for yourself, not for how others perceive you.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,336
Remember when the old site was like third leading traffic link to the Hillary policy website? Where's that energy now? How many people in any of the politics threads here are discussing actual Biden policies? You guys spend so much time on the defensive, fuming over people posting videos of Biden walking off camera in a livestream or trailing off in the middle of a sentence; accusing people of being alt-right trolls, Russian interference, privileged, secret Trump supporters. The Democratic nominee is everyone's 3rd/4th/5th pick... just because some people don't fall in line as quickly as some of you did, doesn't mean that the election is lost. Stop playing defense and be proactive about supporting your nominee. Your tired, boring, dishonest nominee.
We're having a field day because people are usually lying or being otherwise dishonest with their attacks on Biden. For example, show me the video where Biden walks off camera in the livestream.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
But what if they have genuinely changed?
What if they woke up and realized "Holy hell I've been a monster. I have to change." It happens, not often I'm afraid as a lot of people don't realize how bad they've behaved.But it can happen.
Which, funny...Is sort of an argument I had on Reddit with a self-proclaimed Revolutionary. People cannot change. It is impossible. Even if that spits in the face of experience and human history.
But fair enough, Biden has a luggage that means he cannot earn your vote.
Because it doesn't really excuse the accent they've done right. It really doesn't make up for it for the most part." I've changed now sure bully you all through High School but now I'm a different person you see. Like this isnt a Disney channel movie. And when it comes to Joe this "people can change "things just comes as a way for people to not come to terms with all the shit joe has done
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,856
Japan
Back when it was still a possibility that Bernie would become president, "even if Bernie were president, how would he get congress to enact the legislation he wanted?" often came up, and the answer was a social movement would pressure members of congress to push through things like M4A.

What is stopping the left from putting the pressure on Biden, then? Democrats have moved to the left over time, at least since the 90s. It is not possible to shame Republicans to do the right thing, but should be possible for put enough pressure on the Biden admin to move to the left on issues the left cares about.
 

GreatFenris

Banned
Apr 6, 2019
404
dunno, becoming a better person? that sounds important.
Oh, absolutely. But becoming a better person is sort of difficult if everyone would treat you as shit. Or at least to stay a better person.

Because it doesn't really excuse the accent they've done right. It really doesn't make up for it for the most part." I've changed now sure bully you all through High School but now I'm a different person you see. Like this isnt a Disney channel movie
Ironic, because in a Disney movie the bully would never change and get his or her comeuppance in the end.
In the real world, some people change.
 

MagicDoogies

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,047
Pretty much. Any time someone gives me one of these speeches, I'm like-- the fuck d'you want me to do, pal? I'm probably voting for Biden, but I can't see myself doing anything better than that. Let's pretend-- let's just pretend-- that I'm of the opinion Trump is the disease and not the symptom so I'm convinced Biden putting his hand over that Bible will just cause all the cages to spring wide open. Guess what? I can't fucking persuade my other leftist pals that's the case. I can't. I've tried. Does that make them bad people? Who gives a fuck? It's not like declaring them bad people magically hands their vote over to you so you can cast it for them. You're still as fucked as you were before. Either you need them, or you don't, and if you need them either you can persuade them, or you can't. COVID is changing some of the calculus for this, but the question is still authentic on whether people should vote or not.

The "incremental change is better than accelerationism" argument is well understood and near-universally agreed with. It's a good starting point in theory, then, to make a case for Biden. The proof you have to make is that not voting for Biden is a) such a dire thing that you have to hold your nose and vote for someone you actively loathe (that Super Tuesday shit is never just gonna be water over the bridge) and b) effectively accelerationism. To do that, you have to establish that Biden produces better outcomes than Trump-- and believe it or not, even in an intersectionalist grouping of leftists that's not wholly understood to be the case. Not merely because of climate change-- and let's be clear, Biden's climate change policy is disqualifying. Not merely because of the question of what happens after Biden's single term if there's a return to the status quo-- that, let's be clear, Trump's election was a reaction to. Not merely because very few of us will get any visible improvement in our own lives because of this-- which, let's be clear, is the primary driver of enthusiasm in any electoral campaign no matter how noble the goal. Not merely because we are tacitly ceding our own voices and collapsing the enthusiasm of what meager movement we've managed to scrounge together-- that, let's be clear, many of us are convinced is the ONLY way to organize a response to the coming threat of ecofascism. But also because Biden is not trusted-- neither in terms of his integrity nor in terms of his competence. We remember how he's talked about how we need to compromise with Republicans-- and so the question is, is he even going to fight for the kids in cages that we're beat about the head over as a rhetorical cudgel by his supporters? I mean, what the fuck are you gonna do if he decides not to pursue that avenue? You gonna protest him? Are you? You gonna tell us to wait for his successor in four years who is DEFINITELY a lock instead (and conveniently, definitely NOT a leftist)? Also, are we gonna pretend, like Biden is, that 2012-2016 didn't happen? Because let's be clear, it's not an open question if Biden is gonna drive down-ticket enthusiasm with a message laser-focused on BEAT TRUMP, and if he doesn't we are fucked by simple dint of obstructionism.

Look, here's the honest truth: if you can imagine two tiny people in a trenchcoat who hold each other in unreserved and abject loathing, that's the Democratic party as a result of First Past The Post. That runs deeper than Bernie and should be clear by now for anybody with eyes to see. Party A keeps telling Party B it HAS to vote for Biden, even has to VOCALLY SUPPORT Biden, or Party B just wants Trump to win; while at the same time implying that Party B is useless and inconsequential anyways and that their ideas are unworkable. So which is it? We're being told we're actively endangering the election just by criticizing Biden, for example, giving an underwhelming speech for a couple minutes in the middle of a pandemic while being nearly unseen. This is who the candidates whose policy positions most resembled his decided to drop out to support. And yet those of us whose policy positions are nearly diametrically opposed to that are supposed to be the ones who are responsible for being the necessary support? It's implicitly understood we don't get anything in return for this-- it's our moral obligation. Do you have any idea how hard that makes it for me to sell other people on the idea of a Biden presidency?

You can't guilt people into handing you a win.

And that's without a global pandemic beating down the door and making the case that we need radical change and we need it now. That's without a stock market literally calling to be fed with the blood of workers. That's without a foreign policy position that's more precarious than it's ever been and that calls for a decidedly non-interventionist approach to foreign policy. That's without whatever else this fucked up nightmare of a year has in store for us before November! Is this conversation driving some anxiety in you, dear reader? Better hope shit doesn't get worse in this grand old year. Somehow.
Thank you for this post. Couldn't of said it better myself.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
But what if they have genuinely changed?
What if they woke up and realized "Holy hell I've been a monster. I have to change." It happens, not often I'm afraid as a lot of people don't realize how bad they've behaved.But it can happen.
Which, funny...Is sort of an argument I had on Reddit with a self-proclaimed Revolutionary. People cannot change. It is impossible. Even if that spits in the face of experience and human history.
But fair enough, Biden has a luggage that means he cannot earn your vote.


The way I see it one side is a Nazi death cult, who will worship their leader as long as he sucks.

The other side will tear their leadership apart and hate them.

Obama was a once in a lifetime candidate and President and most posters in this thread will still instantly declare their hate unprompted for him.

Thing is, alot things Obama and Biden did suck. But instead of fighting against them and all positives they achieved, you could pick a good fight. A fight for good policies, a fight for good head of departments etc. etc. Fight for something you believe in. It is a hard, horrendous fight, much less instantly stimulating fight than a fight against [insert something Democrat here]. Because no matter who will pick up the mess Trump left in 4 years, he/she(lol) will have to fight against a Congress and a Supreme Court and in 2 years against the Senate.

So if anyone wants a 82 year old(sorry) Sanders to succeed in his Presidency atleast a tiny bit, fight now. People like McConnell understood this is a long game.
 

Encephalon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,856
Japan
Biden downright said that if he Medicare for all was passed in congress somehow he'd veto it, how can I trust this guy?

Publicly shame him for doing so and get the public on your side. It's not about "trust." If part of enacting leftist goals is possible under a Bernie admin, it should be similarly possible under a Biden admin using the same mechanisms.
 

Double 0

Member
Nov 5, 2017
7,446
Look, if you aren't able to see the consequences of the last election, that's on you. I think it is pretty clear.

I understand what a conservative Supreme Court will do to people. I want to prevent that.

And I know what a Democratic landslide would mean to those said people. I want that.

Outside of candidates like Tulsi or Bloomberg, those three reasonings remain consistent. That's enough for me.

If not for you, then cool. I hope whatever method you think will stop this shit works. I really do. But until I see proof you can't tell me not voting does anything effective.