Honest Trailers: Captain Marvel

[8byte]

That's exactly what a character arc is!? A transformation of a person. Her overcoming her barriers is not a character arc, because it's who she's always been, and who she is throughout the movie.

My take on the overall arc is that it's about letting go. She _is_ being subdued, in more than one way, and the culmination of that is her unleashing at the end. That unleashing is represented as a consequence of her finding her power, but the effect of it on her as a person isn't shown. How many scenes are there even after that last action bit? It leaves me wanting more, you want to see her get familiar (again) with being unleashed, you want the movie to explore that. That doesn't happen enough in the movie IMO, it leaves me wanting more at the end. She pretty much straight goes in to space.

Take Dr. Strange for example. He starts out as an arrogant asshole feeling like he's on top of the world, and is summarily undone by his own callousness. He loses everything and is brought to despair. Then he finds a glimmer of hope but gets cast out again, he perseveres and finds a new path for himself. During that, he discovers that the ones who are helping him are not selfish like him, they are heroes who take their power and use it responsibly, selflessly. Strange initially is like hell naw, yet then he starts to accept it and slowly starts to embrace the selflessness and new responsibility. At the end, he's changed as a person, he's still arrogant, but he's learned the importance of selflessness and responsibility. There are a lot more in your face beats in this movie, and the final action bit where Strange is learning to use his powers is also a lot longer (haven't checked though, but would be really surprised if it's not).

Carol's character arc is much harder to describe for me. It was shown to that she was being suppressed with the device in her neck, the psychological manipulation, and the memory erasing. So I would think those three are the character arc then, she gets her powers back, memories, and overcomes the psychological manipulation. Her powers back, check, that was done alright - the scenes were really satisfying, although the action was quite short after she went all out. But her memory erasing and psychological manipulation? All that I got was her blasting Jude Law when he wanted to duke it out by hand -- and that actually already happened at the start of the movie, so it wasn't even a change or a new thing.

I would have loved to see a bit more of that change, relish in it a bit. Maybe I missed or didn't notice it? How do you see the arc then?

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See, and there in is the problem. You seem to believe that the manipulation and memories build a part of her personality. You think that upon remembering her past, or discovering that she's been manipulated, that she's going to change. This isn't the God Father where in a character doesn't want to become like his father, but is then thrust into a world that makes him like his father.

Carol Danvers is Carol Danvers throughout the entirety of the movie. Her character arc (her development) is her coming to terms with fragmented past, her oppressors (the Kree), and her self doubt. That is her development. She rises up above the adversity, and it's a choice that she makes, not an external factor. She chooses to listen to the Skrull, where previously she just wanted to kill them. She chooses to trust Fury, to dig into her past, and to disobey the Kreey (the Supreme Intelligence). These are all choices that she makes that she otherwise would not have made in the beginning of the movie.

I mean, she develops plenty throughout the film, and her arc is one of self discovery and triumph, particularly in accepting her emotional influence on her power, and escaping the grasp of the Kree.

She doesn't need to transform completely as a personality in order to have a character arc. The idea that her personality was "suppressed" or that we "didn't see enough of it" is off base, because we see plenty of it. It's all there, throughout the entirety of the movie. We know what she has a sequel coming, we know that Mar-Vell is still alive, and we know that she's slowly piecing together her past. That said, I don't think any of that would have had any consequence in her development, because we see plenty of who Danvers was before she lost her memory.

She was a determined young woman who wanted to do what she wanted to do, not what people thought young women should do. She was an aspiring pilot who wanted make a difference in the world. She was a loyal friend. Most of all, she was persistent. She displays all of those qualities as Captain Marvel, so I'm not sure how her past is going to contribute to her character development.

I'm not saying this is your stance, but when I see takes like "I wish we could have seen more of her personality", I just read "boy I wish she would smile more", and it makes me roll my eyes.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

Pretty much.

Her dad told her she couldn't ride bikes. She rode the bike.
Her instructor said she'd never pass the entrance exam. She passed the entrance exam.
Her copilots said she'd never fly. She fucking flew.

The Kree were just another controlling influence, someone else telling Carol what they want her to be. They lied to her and manipulated her to keep her under their control for six years. Six bloody years they stole from her! And why? 'cause she was strong. Not just the powers, but the skills, the determination, the talents she had - the very things that would've made her the perfect weapon.

That's why she's so intent on helping the Skrulls, right? They showed her the truth and with that she became free of the Kree. Once the Skrulls showed her that she was being used and controlled, in her own words, she was no longer fighting with one arm tied behind her back.

Captain Marvel is a rather unique superhero origin story because Carol isn't becoming the hero she was meant to be - she's remembering the hero that she is. When she removes than inhibitor, that's the moment when she's saying "Carol Danvers is back" and immediately she's back to having fun with her powers as she was at the start of the movie. There's only really that part in the middle, between realising she has a connection to Earth and realising what that connection is, where she seems a little uncertain.

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Yeah, exactly. What I don't get is that what you're describing here isn't a character arc. She's essentially the same person throughout the movie, getting (parts of) her memory back doesn't change her, there's no events that really change, she stays the same essentially. In other words, no character arc. So I'm confused as to why you'd be saying that the non-character arc, is the character arc? Where's the change, transformation, inner journey?

 

[8byte]

Yeah, exactly. What I don't get is that what you're describing here isn't a character arc. She's essentially the same person throughout the movie, getting (parts of) her memory back doesn't change her, there's no events that really change, she stays the same essentially. In other words, no character arc. So I'm confused as to why you'd be saying that the non-character arc, is the character arc? Where's the change, transformation, inner journey?

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You're confusing so many things.

Personality =/= character arc. Her being the same person is irrelevant.

Her character arc is the transition from Vers (soldier, obedient, controlling her emotions) to Captain Marvel (leader, compassionate, embracing her emotions). Her personality traits (persistence, loyalty, fortitude, attitude, etc) are all in tact throughout the entirety of the film.

 

[LL_Decitrig]

Pretty much.

Her dad told her she couldn't ride bikes. She rode the bike.
Her instructor said she'd never pass the entrance exam. She passed the entrance exam.
Her copilots said she'd never fly. She fucking flew.

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For the record, the person you're quoting and agreeing with is 8byte , not me. I think you got the attributions wrong somehow.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

She doesn't need to transform completely as a personality in order to have a character arc. The idea that her personality was "suppressed" or that we "didn't see enough of it" is off base, because we see plenty of it. It's all there, throughout the entirety of the movie. We know what she has a sequel coming, we know that Mar-Vell is still alive, and we know that she's slowly piecing together her past. That said, I don't think any of that would have had any consequence in her development, because we see plenty of who Danvers was before she lost her memory.

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Yeah she does, well not completely, but you do need a change of a character from one sort of person to another. Which doesn't really happen in the movie that I can see. It does get alluded to with the flashbacks, which could make you think that she is currently a bit subdued because the flashbacks are all much less subdued. Obviously this could be the situation being different in and of itself, but it's a movie, the moments are selected to tell you something so I think it's reasonable to get the idea that she was different before she was kidnapped.

I'm not saying this is your stance, but when I see takes like "I wish we could have seen more of her personality", I just read "boy I wish she would smile more", and it makes me roll my eyes.

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I get the wariness, but I can't really do anything about that. I'm genuinely trying to explain what I feel was lacking for me in the movie. I think it's cool to be checked on each other's biases, but it's a bit presumptuous to go here when I'm explicitly talking about the character arc, not about her personality shown on screen.

You're confusing so many things.

Personality =/= character arc. Her being the same person is irrelevant.

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Well, that's not the definition I've been using. See wikipedia.

Her character arc is the transition from Vers (soldier, obedient, controlling her emotions) to Captain Marvel (leader, compassionate, embracing her emotions). Her personality traits (persistence, loyalty, fortitude, attitude, etc) are all in tact throughout the entirety of the film.

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That transition from Vers to Captain Marvel you're describing here, I don't see. She didn't seem much different to me as a soldier as she blasted her commanding officer twice, being reprimanded. Controlling her emotions is again a difficult one, controlling emotion wise she doesn't seem that different throughout the movie, aside from that scene where she goes all out. Before and after, she's still a soldier. She doesn't really change as a person from what I can tell, and that sort of arc is what I would have liked to see, it feels missing or much too short to me.

 

[subpar spatula]

That transition from Vers to Captain Marvel you're describing here, I don't see. She didn't seem much different to me as a soldier as she blasted her commanding officer twice, being reprimanded. Controlling her emotions is again a difficult one, controlling emotion wise she doesn't seem that different throughout the movie, aside from that scene where she goes all out. Before and after, she's still a soldier. She doesn't really change as a person from what I can tell, and that sort of arc is what I would have liked to see, it feels missing or much too short to me.

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Yeah, it was weird because she starts as off as confident, outgoing, and not being controlled to the start of the movie where she is emotionless, controlled, obedient, etc to where she is back to the beginning. Time is a flat circle? There's a lot of similarities with this movie to Dr. Strange's where he starts off as an arrogant jerk, goes through thing, and ends up an arrogant jerk once again except now he knows magic. It's really strange that Thor of all people has one of the more convincing first movies character wise. THOR. God damn Thor.

 

[8byte]

Yeah she does, well not completely, but you do need a change of a character from one sort of person to another. Which doesn't really happen in the movie that I can see. It does get alluded to with the flashbacks, which could make you think that she is currently a bit subdued because the flashbacks are all much less subdued. Obviously this could be the situation being different in and of itself, but it's a movie, the moments are selected to tell you something so I think it's reasonable to get the idea that she was different before she was kidnapped.


I get the wariness, but I can't really do anything about that. I'm genuinely trying to explain what I feel was lacking for me in the movie. I think it's cool to be checked on each other's biases, but it's a bit presumptuous to go here when I'm explicitly talking about the character arc, not about her personality shown on screen.


Well, that's not the definition I've been using. See wikipedia.


That transition from Vers to Captain Marvel you're describing here, I don't see. She didn't seem much different to me as a soldier as she blasted her commanding officer twice, being reprimanded. Controlling her emotions is again a difficult one, controlling emotion wise she doesn't seem that different throughout the movie, aside from that scene where she goes all out. Before and after, she's still a soldier. She doesn't really change as a person from what I can tell, and that sort of arc is what I would have liked to see, it feels missing or much too short to me.

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I'm not sure how you can cite Wikipedia and then ignore this entire bit of information:

A driving element of the plots of many stories is that the main character seems initially unable to overcome opposing forces, possibly because they lack skills or knowledge or resources or friends. To overcome such obstacles, the main character must change, possibly by learning new skills, to arrive at a higher sense of self-awareness or capability. Main characters can achieve such self-awareness by interacting with their environment, by enlisting the help of mentors, by changing their viewpoint, or by some other method.

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To break down "character arc" into three acts (much like Wikipedia does):

Act 1: Vers is established as a character, an obedient Soldier being taught to control her powers (and subsequently, her emotions, which drive her powers). Inciting incident, she discovers that she had a life on Earth, and that her dreams aren't nonsense, they're memories.

Act 2:
On earth, Vers continues to learn more about her past, while Mar-Vell continues to (try) gaslight her. She is trying to fix the problem (hunting and killing the Skrull) only to learn about a worse problem (the Skrull aren't bad guys, she's being lied to, Kree are committing genocide). She discovers she's being manipulated by the Supreme Intelligence as they attempt to wipe her memory (again), and she embraces her emotion to discover new power and gain new insight into her own capabilities.

Act 3:
Captain Marvel discovers her capabilities, and changes from the obedient soldier to the compassionate leader and protecter (as she decides to leave her life and newly discovered friends of her past in order to protect and aid those in need). This is incongruent with Vers, who again, just follows orders to serve the Kree.

Personality wise, she is the same throught these transitions. She jokes, she laughs, she has emotions, her sense of humor is in tact. However, she aims to control those emotions as a Kree Soldier when she is Vers. When she accepts her emotions and choses her fate, she gains new capability & sense of duty, but her personality (outside of perhaps being compassionate and a protector with extreme power) is largely unchanged.


So I'm not really sure what you're looking for here, outside of a long monologue where she discusses how she's changed while being heavy handed. It was pretty clear to me that her intentions and sense of duty are greatly shifted from the start of the movie to the end of the movie.

 

[LL_Decitrig]

We should probably drop the term "character arc" at this point in the discussion because it's just muddying the waters. Does Carol uncover the deceit that holds her in check and finally overcome the Kree control over her? Yes. Let's consider that box ticked. She opposes and defeats the Kree plot and undertakes to find somewhere safe for the Skrull refugees to live.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

Act 1: Vers is established as a character, an obedient Soldier being taught to control her powers (and subsequently, her emotions, which drive her powers). Inciting incident, she discovers that she had a life on Earth, and that her dreams aren't nonsense, they're memories.

Act 2:
On earth, Vers continues to learn more about her past, while Mar-Vell continues to (try) gaslight her. She is trying to fix the problem (hunting and killing the Skrull) only to learn about a worse problem (the Skrull aren't bad guys, she's being lied to, Kree are committing genocide). She discovers she's being manipulated by the Supreme Intelligence as they attempt to wipe her memory (again), and she embraces her emotion to discover new power and gain new insight into her own capabilities.

Act 3:
Captain Marvel discovers her capabilities, and changes from the obedient soldier to the compassionate leader and protecter (as she decides to leave her life and newly discovered friends of her past in order to protect and aid those in need). This is incongruent with Vers, who again, just follows orders to serve the Kree.

Personality wise, she is the same throught these transitions. She jokes, she laughs, she has emotions, her sense of humor is in tact. However, she aims to control those emotions as a Kree Soldier when she is Vers. When she accepts her emotions and choses her fate, she gains new capability & sense of duty, but her personality (outside of perhaps being compassionate and a protector with extreme power) is largely unchanged.

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You honestly can't see how someone could see this differently? I mean, your act 1 is based on her being an obedient soldier who controls her powers and her emotions, what's that based on? Which scenes show this to you? She''s being told to control her emotions, yes, but she doesn't, multiple times. That goes counter to your obedience and emotion characterization.

Act 2, embracing her emotion, is not a big shift to me. She had embraced her emotions before in the movie already (not flashbacks). While there is some difference, it's nuanced, not what you'd expect from a marvel universe character arc. This also happened at the end of the movie, your Act 2 and 3 happen in the span of the last small bit of the movie. Which sort of circles back to what I was saying, that it felt like that there could be that 3rd act, but it was cut short, e.g. left me wanting more.

So I'm not really sure what you're looking for here, outside of "smile more".

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It seems like you just want me to be some alt-right asshole or something. I'm doing my best in trying to explain what I felt was missing, a minor thing at that, yet that's your conclusion? Not really nice.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

Yeah, exactly. What I don't get is that what you're describing here isn't a character arc. She's essentially the same person throughout the movie, getting (parts of) her memory back doesn't change her, there's no events that really change, she stays the same essentially. In other words, no character arc. So I'm confused as to why you'd be saying that the non-character arc, is the character arc? Where's the change, transformation, inner journey?

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Rediscovering yourself is as much a journey as discovering your destiny or whatever, especially when we're talking about six years of your life being stolen from you by a bad guy that wiped your memories and tried really hard to stamp out your identity.

I mean, the Kree weren't just trying to remove Carol's emotions from the equation but who she was. They knew her name wasn't "Vers", but that was itself symbolic of how they only wanted part of Carol and threw away the rest. They didn't want Carol Danvers, they wanted Vers; they wanted an obedient weapon.

Carol has a pretty well defined character arc. You're just dismissing it because you don't see "truth" as something with inherent value. Carol begins the movie as a loyal Kree warrior then, by the end of it, she has openly defied the Kree and sent her former mentor back to Hala with a pretty scary message - that she's coming for them and she's going to end their war, their lies.

What more do you need?

 

[Deleted member 1445]

Carol has a pretty well defined character arc. You're just dismissing it because you don't see "truth" as something with inherent value. Carol begins the movie as a loyal Kree warrior then, by the end of it, she has openly defied the Kree and sent her former mentor back to Hala with a pretty scary message - that she's coming for them and she's going to end their war, their lies.

What more do you need?

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Not seeing truth as something with inherent value has absolutely zero to do with anything. I'm not talking about anything complex, what I'm saying is that I find the character arc lacking, essentially. Character arc as in the character changing as a person. I don't see that in the movie. It's as you say, it's about the truth, she discovers it. Those are perfectly fine and entertaining story lines. They don't replace a character arc however. Her defying the Kree at the end isn't a result of her having changed as a person, it's a result of her finding out the truth.

You can see the difference right? It's the difference between movies that feature such character arcs like Iron Man and Dr. Strange, vs. movies that don't have a pronounced arc/changes to their character, such as some Schwarzenegger action movies, James Bond, etc.

The character of Carol Danvers is interesting and layered, the trials that she faces are interesting and engaging, all the aspects that are there are good, essentially. But watching the movie, and this held up on the second viewing, I did end up wanting or expecting that kind of character arc. While watching the movie I get the impression that the Carol that we saw during the most part of the movie was not just physically subdued through the gizmo, but also mentally subdued through the brainwashing and memory wiping, and the payoff to that is lukewarm and short lived.

Perhaps another way to describe it -- the last act, after she rises up and discovers her full power, is just too short, which left me wanting in parts. I mean, we can go in to detail as to why I expected more and so wanted more, but my experience isn't the thing that can change here.

 

[Sean]

Rediscovering yourself is as much a journey as discovering your destiny or whatever, especially when we're talking about six years of your life being stolen from you by a bad guy that wiped your memories and tried really hard to stamp out your identity.

I mean, the Kree weren't just trying to remove Carol's emotions from the equation but who she was. They knew her name wasn't "Vers", but that was itself symbolic of how they only wanted part of Carol and threw away the rest. They didn't want Carol Danvers, they wanted Vers; they wanted an obedient weapon.

Carol has a pretty well defined character arc. You're just dismissing it because you don't see "truth" as something with inherent value. Carol begins the movie as a loyal Kree warrior then, by the end of it, she has openly defied the Kree and sent her former mentor back to Hala with a pretty scary message - that she's coming for them and she's going to end their war, their lies.

What more do you need?

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I can't speak for the person you're responding to, but I think a lot of people just don't understand how powerful and depraved Gaslighting is and the difficulty of breaking out of it. They don't really connect with it or empathize with it much if *at all*.

Carol's one of the few MCU characters that I immediately related to and I was pretty bummed when I got home and started reading what people thought of her.

 

[LL_Decitrig]

It seems like you just want me to be some alt-right asshole or something. I'm doing my best in trying to explain what I felt was missing, a minor thing at that, yet that's your conclusion? Not really nice.

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Sorry. I guess I'm just frustrated because I don't understand what you want the resolution to be. The ending works fine for me. I couldn't help laughing loudly when the opening bars of I'm Just A Girl start up.

 

[opticalmace]

Pretty amusing. I really liked the 90s references, but I was a 90s kid.

I think captain marvel is my favourite MCU movie.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

I can't speak for the person you're responding to, but I think a lot of people just don't understand how powerful and depraved Gaslighting is and the difficulty of breaking out of it. They don't really connect with it or empathize with it much if *at all*.

Carol's one of the few MCU characters that I immediately related to and I was pretty bummed when I got home and started reading what people thought of her.

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Yeah, I guess overcoming that just isn't enough for some people. For her to actually turn against her oppressors, to rebel against their control over her and declare her independence was really empowering. For her to then say "I'm coming for you, I'm ending your war and revealing your lies" is inspiring. That's a woman that isn't just happy with her own independence, but sees what the Kree are doing and wants to stop them. I can't wait for the sequel because she's going to take on an entire intergalactic empire. Like damn.

She didn't need to be told "it's not about you", she knew that shit from the start.

Sorry. I guess I'm just frustrated because I don't understand what you want the resolution to be. The ending works fine for me. I couldn't help laughing loudly when the opening bars of I'm Just A Girl start up.

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That part was so bloody cool. She was having so much fun with her powers and the soundtrack of the fight was perfect. That's freedom right there.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

Sorry. I guess I'm just frustrated because I don't understand what you want the resolution to be. The ending works fine for me. I couldn't help laughing loudly when the opening bars of I'm Just A Girl start up.

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The resolution? As in what I want to reach with this discussion? Hm, for me personally, I'm interested in what the differences are in how we experienced it and why. Figuring out why I experienced it that way and also learning new perspectives. From the past few posts, trying to explain myself, that already helped figure out more on what I felt was missing, for example.

 

[LL_Decitrig]

The resolution? As in what I want to reach with this discussion?

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Sorry, I should have made my meaning clearer. I was referring to the resolution of the film. But it's always interesting to read others' views, and I once again want to apologize for being dismissive earlier.

 

[Khezu]

Captain Marvel was just kinda boring, and had a lot of odd plot points they could have cleaned up or done better.

Like the abusing relationship with Jude Law, they could have handled that a lot better.
But I guess it is an all ages super hero move, so it's best to just hint at that stuff.

 

[Deleted member 1445]

Yeah, I guess overcoming that just isn't enough for some people. For her to actually turn against her oppressors, to rebel against their control over her and declare her independence was really empowering. For her to then say "I'm coming for you, I'm ending your war and revealing your lies" is inspiring. That's a woman that isn't just happy with her own independence, but sees what the Kree are doing and wants to stop them.

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I think you hit on a good point there. Not that it's "not enough" for me, I love the movie and especially all the parts you mentioned here. Her space fist bump against Ronan was *chef's kiss*. I just think it would make a good movie even better if it had a bit more of that character arc in a longer third act.

I can't wait for the sequel because she's going to take on an entire intergalactic empire. Like damn.

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Yusss. I want to see her wreck shit so bad. I really hope they move up the schedule for the sequel, it's planned for like 2021 right?

Sorry, I should have made my meaning clearer. I was referring to the resolution of the film. But it's always interesting to read others' views, and I once again want to apologize for being dismissive earlier.

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Cool, thanks. It's okay, I get the wariness, there's plenty of understanding to go around from my side for people who are suspicious of discussing in bad faith when it comes to topics that deal or intersect with injustices and inequalities in society.

 

[Listai]

That part was so bloody cool. She was having so much fun with her powers and the soundtrack of the fight was perfect. That's freedom right there.

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Yeah, while I thought her character arc was kind of muddled in the film, I loved that scene and thought Brie Larson killed it.

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

Captain Marvel was just kinda boring, and had a lot of odd plot points they could have cleaned up or done better.

Like the abusing relationship with Jude Law, they could have handled that a lot better.
But I guess it is an all ages super hero move, so it's best to just hint at that stuff.

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Yeah it's one of those things I look back on and once you realize there's like 5 story credits you can see why the plot was pretty messy the way it was. I think a sequel with an actual unified vision/voice will likely be much stronger.

 

[Watership]

I wonder what cinema sins says about captain marvel...

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I hope one day, we won't care what Cinema Sins says about anything.

 

[Cyclonesweep]

I hope one day, we won't care what Cinema Sins says about anything.

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I honestly didn't know people actually cared.

 

[davepoobond]

That was a pretty good one

The pausing in speech was hilarious

 

[FFNB]

Honest Trailers is always really fun. Enjoyed this one a lot too. The "Marvel designated black friend" but was great.

I really liked Captain Marvel (especially my second viewing), and this Honest Trailers was pretty spot on (they usually are, actually).