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Pororoka

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,210
MX
Then I lucked out with my Wega 21" with component input two years ago. I got it for free, also it came with its remote.

Playing GTAV, RE6 and Binary Domain was an smooth experience when I moved to another city that my 40" Samsung can't replicate to this day.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,454
I occasionally visit a friend's house whose father is really into home theater and high end hifi and he still has a 36-40 inch Sony CRT TV he no longer uses lying around and that the thing is MASSIVE in every dimension and weighs like 240 pounds.
Meanwhile a 50-55 inch flat panel can fit almost everywhere and can be lifted by a single person.
As much as we love the colors and the scaling it's clear CRT technology just had it's day. Between better flat panel tech and better scaling solutions we have started to make up for most of the flat panel deficiencies anyway.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,556
Only to die-hard classic game enthusiasts who happen to be filthy rich, I think.
 

Elixist

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,170
i'd definetely be interested in a 20 inch with hdmi and the old hookups for classic systems
 

big_z

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,794
Because of the materials involved I don't think you would even be allowed to anymore.
It's a shame SED got killed from patent squatters. That tech had far more potential than plasma and lcd and who knows how good it might have been today after 15 years of iteration.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,988
Thanks for the explanation. Are those artifacts caused by frame interpolation? I was just thinking about persisting the image for a shorter time per frame, not generating any intermediate frames. I definitely don't notice any flicker in my Vive or Index though, but that may be because the native framerate is >= 90 hz.
No, that's what happens when you are tracking motion if the refresh rate is a multiple of the frame rate on a CRT, instead of being equal to it.
So 24 FPS requires the display to be refreshing at 24Hz. 30 FPS, 30Hz. 60 FPS, 60Hz etc.
If you're running the display at 90Hz or higher, that means the frame rate must also be 90 FPS or higher.
A very, very small percentage of you would be willing to pay for a 21"+ CRT that is capable of doing 1440p. They'd be stupid expensive. They'd be stupid heavy.
Plus my old ass remembers having to deal with degaussing the screen. Managing vertical hold. Dealing with weird refresh rates. Sync issues. Voltage issues (on arcade monitors). No thanks. LED and OLED are great.
None of this was a problem for PC CRT monitors.
21" PC monitors were very nice displays indeed. Unfortunately they've practically disappeared. If I can find a PC monitor at all now, it's typically 17" or smaller.
The only thing CRT televisions have going for them is size. It's been surprising to me that people have been seeking out old televisions when PC monitors are the best CRTs.

If OLED PC monitors can become more accessible, they would be a good CRT replacemeny
Motion handling is bad on OLEDs right now.
The best you can do at the moment is enable black frame insertion on them, which only doubles the motion resolution (nowhere close to a CRT) while halving the refresh rate.
It's a solvable problem, but requires that display manufacturers actually focus on it.
 

clickKunst

Member
Dec 18, 2017
787
Melbourne, Australia
Unlike a record player, I imagine the cathode ray tube would be pretty expensive to manufacture. You'd need to prove that there's a big market for CRT. I understand the novelty of it though. No filter has been able to capture how games are outputted on a CRT. It's glowy but the image is still sharp... no one gets it.
 

Deleted member 34788

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 29, 2017
3,545
In the form of a ultra enthusiast product? Sure, but just like many mobile phone manufacturers who catered to esoteric enthusiasts and went out of business or gets enough money for a indiegogo kickstart and not much else, the long term ability to make such displays just isn't possible.

The vast majority of the pc gaming market have chosen sleek, powerful, low power displays over heavy old beasts.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,250
Motion handling is bad on OLEDs right now.
The best you can do at the moment is enable black frame insertion on them, which only doubles the motion resolution (nowhere close to a CRT) while halving the refresh rate.
It's a solvable problem, but requires that display manufacturers actually focus on it.

Low persistence "flashing" is terrific in VR (which is a really good way to play old games IMO).

The whole low persistence thing is interesting. Because it tends to suck on TVs, even with less aggressive BFI (way too dim). But it seems like it could be done with a combination of higher refresh rate (more frequent updates) and/or upping the voltage in low persistence mode. Some high refresh LCD monitors already do this. They can safely drive more voltage in very short bursts (as opposed to the steady/lower voltage required for sample and hold). I was browsing the AVS forums looking for LG CES rumors and some some posts talking about LG patents that related to motion resolution. And it seemed to be focusing on voltage. I think we're probably closer to solving the problem than we think.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,988
Low persistence "flashing" is terrific in VR (which is a really good way to play old games IMO).

The whole low persistence thing is interesting. Because it tends to suck on TVs, even with less aggressive BFI (way too dim). But it seems like it could be done with a combination of higher refresh rate (more frequent updates) and/or upping the voltage in low persistence mode. Some high refresh LCD monitors already do this. They can safely drive more voltage in very short bursts (as opposed to the steady/lower voltage required for sample and hold). I was browsing the AVS forums looking for LG CES rumors and some some posts talking about LG patents that related to motion resolution. And it seemed to be focusing on voltage. I think we're probably closer to solving the problem than we think.
What needs to happen is separating drawing the image from black frame insertion.
With current BFI implementations, they're literally drawing black frames in-between every other frame. So if you have a 120Hz panel, that means the highest frame rate you can use BFI with is 60 FPS. And it limits you to only having 50% image persistence.
With a 240Hz panel you could enable 50% BFI at 120 FPS, or have options for 25/50/75% at 60 FPS - which I believe is what LG were intending to offer with the 2019 OLEDs, but cancelled at the last minute.

If they controlled this with the panel driving instead; e.g. switching the panel "off" once the frame has been drawn, rather than by drawing black in-between every frame, it would not affect the frame rate at all. A 120Hz panel could do BFI at 120 FPS.
And by using the panel driving to control this, you would be able to set the persistence to any value you like. You could set it to 10% or 90% depending on how much brightness loss and flicker you can tolerate.
As you say, this also lets you drive the panel brighter. While there are going to be limits to what you can use before it starts to damage the panel, you could theoretically implement BFI with no brightness loss at all. If you scanned the image line-by-line instead of illuminating the entire screen at once, rather than displaying 100 nits for 17ms (60Hz) maybe you could drive the panel at 850 nits for 2ms.
I believe this is similar to how the displays used for VR operate.

The other problem with BFI is refresh rate.
With CRTs, the low persistence was inherent to the way they operated. Feed a CRT a 60Hz input, and it would flicker at 60Hz. 50Hz input, 50Hz refresh etc.
With LCDs that use backlight strobing, this is often not the case. Many televisions strobe at 120Hz for a 60Hz input, which results in double-images like the example I posted above. NVIDIA do not allow ULMB to be enabled below 85Hz (though it can be hacked in).
I fear that OLED may be the same, and either double the refresh, or have limits on the minimum refresh rate that it allows low-persistence operation to be used at.
If you're playing a game at 30 FPS, the display should really be updating at 30Hz. That will flicker terribly, but you can get used to it. I've watched a few movies on CRT at 24Hz and you wouldn't believe how clear and smooth the motion is on it - though the flicker is severe and I had to watch at a very low brightness for that to be tolerable.
 

Zed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,544
Shouldn't SED patents be expiring soon? It obviously isn't a perfecrt solution, but I can see SED being made as a more likely thing since CRTs no longer have economies of scale to help them along with high shipping weights and environmental regulation.
 

ShinJohnpv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
look

I see so many god damn niche ass gaming products out there, like an Open Source Scan Converter or a Gamecube HDMI converter (and the list goes on and on and on) and I wonder how in god's name they are economically feasible

A modern CRT, given how prominent retro games still are, how huge speedrunning is on twitch and youtube, games like Melee and older fighting games still get played by thousands at tournaments... I don't think a modern CRT would move groundbreaking numbers or anything, but it's something that should exist and would absolutely satisfy a certain niche.

One doesn't need to build up a whole new factory to make some OSSCs. They use off the shelf parts, and order boards from one of the many chinese factories that make custom PCBs. Its not really a big deal compared to needing to design and build an entire factory for making CRT tubes. That would be a millions of dollars investment to make happen.

If a modern one was made nothing inherent to the technology would stop it from being in a 16x9 configuration.

The electron guns used in CRTs don't really do well with Widescreen formats. Every single widescreen CRT that was made had major geometry issues that just could not be overcome. I REALLY wanted a widescreen hd crt when HD became a thing, and I went through a lot of sets trying to find one with even passable geometry. From the HIGH END Sony XBRs to even Samsung's slim fits they all had geometry issues. Hell I went through 3 or 4 of the Samsung ones, through Samsung. Where I bought a set, opened it up, major geometry issues, call Samsung, they send over their tech who would take the set. Have it for 2 - 3 weeks, and then I'd get a call from Samsung that it couldn't be fixed and they were sending me a replacement. To rinse and repeat, till finally after I want to say the 4th one Samsung just refunded me my money, and basically told me they couldn't give me a Widescreen CRT with out geometry issues. Talking with the techs they would send out, they all said the same thing it just wasn't going to happen.

Now these were consumer grade ones, and I believe there were some widescreen BVMs but I have no idea how those faired.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I wonder how many people are watching the sugar bowl this way:

DF311ms.jpg
 

DonMigs85

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,770
what I hate about CRTs are the weird geometry issues, darkening corners, etc that can occur over time. The price you pay for analog
 

Citizencope

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,201
I do not think so. I have a 36" CRT that I've been trying to figure out how to discard for years now. My back aches just thinking about moving it.
 

Freshmaker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,924
With the near instantaneous input lag, extremely high refresh rate, no ghosting/motion blur issues, and the scan lines that make old school games look oh so good. Do you think if a company released a CRT today that it could sell enough to be profitable?
Only if they managed to overcome the weight and depth issues and manage a way to set up HDR with such a beast.
 
Nov 4, 2017
7,348
I'm confused about people complaining about moving a 34" CRT... But forgot that I'm a 6'5" 250lb unit. Those things are almost impossible for the cast majority of people to move.

Ultimately, I think it's going to be cheaper (and better) to make a series of premium LCD/OLED screens that addresses the needs of retro gamers. There are already some with trivial, infinitesimal input lag. Including older input ports and some good upscaling and filtering would be a nice touch.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,551
CRTs? No. But there was a "Flat CRT" solution that I can't remember there name if right now that would probably do real well if it came out now I think
 

Molten_

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,536
Once crts start to become harder and harder to find, I think we will see a resurgence of it, or something equivalent
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,598
I don't know the exact information behind this, but IIRC somewhere someone looked into the logistics behind this and found that in order for proper commercial CRTs to be produced again, a lot of manufacturing costs would have to be incurred because CRTs are made with parts that are no longer being commonly manufactured. I think that in theory, high quality CRTs developed for enthusiasts could be a good niche hit if in functioned in a way similar to Limited Run Games, but I don't think such a thing would actually be possible.
 

brokenswiftie

Prophet of Truth
Banned
May 30, 2018
2,921
Pretty sure CRTs have a soft Resolution limit after which they get ridiculously expensive to make because electrons repel each other
 

CosmicPanda

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
842
so is this link from a company that appears to focus on maintaining small CRTs for, like, fighter jets, air traffic control stations, and shit supposed to show that it wouldn't be prohibitively expensive to manufacture CRTs for a small number of niche video game enthusiasts?
hey people in this thread say that ALL production BIG or SMALL was discontinued.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
8,932
No but I reckon with DF's video you could buy up all the second hand CRTs, refurbish them and sell them as a niche product.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
If they made a small one designed to be the best TV for retro games, I'd probably consider it
 

TaurezAG

Member
Oct 29, 2017
55
Those who are advocating for SED/FED, you do realize that they inherit the same problem as TFT displays right?
One of the advantages of CRT is that they are analogue, so resolution is not rigid like a TFT display.
A SED/FED display however, is still a fixed resolution display. So I would rather have direct emission MicroLED displays over SED/FED which uses phosphor that will degrade over time.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,772
Alabama
Me either, just wanted to say something random since I have no clue. I guess we could say it's a meta jab at people coming in and talking over everyone's heads and they just accept it as fact.
Got it.

I picked up an old Dell CRT monitor yesterday and the motion clarity is insane compared to my LG monitor. It just got me thinking. If an OLED could fire pixels in sequence like CRT it would also have the motion benefits of CRT in a modern panel that's in consumer production.
 

Cdammen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
522
Sweden
No. I don't think the tech/gaming enthusiasts would eat it up, it would be a niche within a niche.

But I really want to own one again. I'm looking for an old one now actually.
 

Bradford

terminus est
Member
Aug 12, 2018
5,423
I definitely think they could for power users. Hardcore gaming enthusiasts, video editors, people doing color work.

Also, everyone is talking about the weight as an issue but how many times a day are you lifting and moving your monitors? I've had a CRT on my desk for the better part of this year and it hasn't moved once. It's easily my favorite display in my home.
 
Mar 27, 2019
369
If you could get the weight down, sure. It would definitely be a niche, enthusiast product but yeah I would consider buying one if it was quality and integrated newish/refined CRT technology.
 
OP
OP
Bomblord

Bomblord

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 11, 2018
6,390
Got it.

I picked up an old Dell CRT monitor yesterday and the motion clarity is insane compared to my LG monitor. It just got me thinking. If an OLED could fire pixels in sequence like CRT it would also have the motion benefits of CRT in a modern panel that's in consumer production.

Try a high refresh rate monitor with black frame insertion