Honest question: Do you think a modern CRT could sell?

[Anth0ny]

The thing is, even though many of those products are custom designs, they still for the most part use modern (and in many cases off-the shelf) components. The real stumbling block for a boutique CRT monitor is that the assembly lines for those tubes just don't exist anymore, and standing one up is likely beyond the means of what the scope of that market could realistically support.

Click to shrink...

Well my ideal would be something the size/weight/thickness of a LED monitor with no perceptible different in input lag from a CRT, taking in feedback from speedrunners/fighting game players to make sure everything is fucking PERFECT down to the frame when it comes to replicating the CRT feel. I ain't no scientist so I don't know how possible it is, but that's how I dream it up in my head. It wouldn't be a huge, heavy fucker like any other CRT, because if I wanted that I would just go on craigs list and get one for like $10 lol

And of course it would have all the inputs necessary for retro gameplay, and maybe even some of the options we see from the Framemeister and OSSC like scanlines and all that.

here's a basic rundown of the situation as I understand it. the focus is melee but lots of info in there on CRT vs LED lag:



I'd like the CRT method of drawing images on a screen with a LED form factor

 

[Deleted member 12790]

There's a niche audience actively chasing down old models right now, with stuff in perfect working order becoming increasingly hard to find and repairs and refurb becoming more necessary. I think they'd jump on a Kickstarter in a heartbeat.

Click to shrink...

I don't think a kickstarter could raise the kind of money that would be needed to produce CRTs again.

we're talking millions of dollars for manufacturing. The plants to produce the CRT themselves don't exist anymore. They could be produced for hundreds of dollars per set back in the day, because there was an economy of scale that made having massive plants producing the tech feasible.

CRTs take a lot of resources to produce. Like, an entire factory.

 

[Bomblord]

Isn't LED doing that already. With TVs having Game Mode to have no ghosting/motion blur with high refresh rate.

Scan Lines is the only option that is good to have for old consoles. But I think newer LEDs should give us that option to change the TV settings to actually intentionally GET Scan Lines.

My first HD TV was Toshiba 34inch CRT back in 2005 and HOLY it was heavy. I had to ask 3 of my friends to help me take it upstairs. Never again.

Click to shrink...

No LED is doing all of that in the same package with the same performance.

 

[Ploid 6.0]

There are already PC CRTs that do over 1080p. I'm sure they could easily go up to 4k.

Click to shrink...

Would there even be a purpose for a 4k CRT? The image of CRTs are so clean already.

I wish I never got rid of mine. Actually I wonder if it's in a garage or something. I don't remember actually throwing it away. Hmm.

 

[Yogi]

I still want to see a very good CRT side-by-side with an IPS monitor captured on video or in person. I don't think the colours would look as good. IPS is laggy though.

 

[chromatic9]

Maybe in a few years. I'm sure some improvements can be made with new materials.

I would say new tech might be able to simulate CRT exactly one day and we won't need to.

Problem is the HDTV space has moved much slower than I would've liked in the last 15-20 years. I remember in 2007 many said OLED was just around the corner, don't buy yet.

 

[MrNelson]

They don't need to be 40" for gaming.

Click to shrink...

But even at that smaller size, they're still heavy and awkward to hold. If I need to I can move my 40" flat screen by myself. I can also move my cheapo 19" Dynex CRT, but that's already about 3x as heavy as my flat-screen (50ish lbs). If it were any larger I probably wouldn't be able to do it without another person. I've already embraced the upscaler future and picked up an OSSC a year ago. Now my CRT only serves to play consoles that I haven't upgraded to use RGB yet.

 

[Deleted member 8752]

Would there even be a purpose for a 4k CRT? The image of CRTs are so clean already.

I wish I never got rid of mine. Actually I wonder if it's in a garage or something. I don't remember actually throwing it away. Hmm.

Click to shrink...

Of course. Being able to see higher resolution is never a bad thing. It's a little less necessary on a CRT though. But the benefits are pretty clear to see.

 

[fontguy]

.

 

[Deleted member 1722]

I still want to see a very good CRT side-by-side with an IPS monitor captured on video or in person. I don't think the colours would look as good. IPS is laggy though.

Click to shrink...

You mean the colors on the CRT wouldn't look as good? Nah, they'd look dope, and luminous!

 

[Orayn]

I don't think a kickstarter could raise the kind of money that would be needed to produce CRTs again.

we're talking millions of dollars for manufacturing. The plants to produce the CRT themselves don't exist anymore. They could be produced for hundreds of dollars per set back in the day, because there was an economy of scale that made having massive plants producing the tech feasible.

CRTs take a lot of resources to produce. Like, an entire factory.

Click to shrink...

For clarity's sake, only this part of the assembly is the challenge. Every other component is completely mundane.

I wonder what it would take to actually find a vendor who can still make them and put together a BOM for a brand new CRT.

 

[elenarie]

I... uhhh

Castle-can't-ad-anything.gif

Click to shrink...

Hahah! :D

 

[Deleted member 12790]

For clarity's sake, only this part of the assembly is the challenge. Every other component is completely mundane.

I wonder what it would take to actually find a vendor who can still make them and put together a BOM for a brand new CRT.

Click to shrink...

as someone who has been trying to source flyback transformers for a CRT, no, it's not only the glass tube that is mundane. They straight up don't produce these flyback transformers anymore.

There is also the problem of physical transport. The logistics of shipping out items this huge is impossible to overcome. This is why, for example, the Virtuix Omni couldn't come through as a consumer device, and the virtuix omni was roughly the same weight as a 32" CRT television.

 

[Orayn]

as someone who has been trying to source flyback transformers for a CRT, no, it's not only the glass tube that is mundane. They straight up don't produce these flyback transformers anymore.

Click to shrink...

I stand corrected, though I imagine specialized flyback transformers are closer to some existing product than the tube.

Then again, you'd probably discover more and more obsolete components the deeper you dug into the list.

 

[Eoin]

There probably wouldn't be a viable market even in the best case (which is that a huge number of gamers got together and decided on a one-size-fits-all model of CRT).

Even that best case wouldn't exist though, since people would want different sizes and different aspect ratios and different inputs (and in some cases outputs). Even a compromise model is going to miss some niche use cases. The CRT that's great for playing SNES games at modern viewing distances is no good to the person who wants a TATE mode screen for playing Raiden II, and also no good to the person who wants to build a rig for playing old arcade light gun games.

There isn't an audience for this outside gaming either, so the lack of a model that's suitable for everyone is a big blow to an already-shaky business model.

Plus, CRTs were manufactured in large numbers and available in a huge variety of forms and a well-treated CRT lasts for decades. A company manufacturing a new gaming CRT doesn't just have to build a CRT, they have to build one that's better than the array of CRTs that are already available (at varying levels of awkwardness, but available nonetheless).

 

[Soundchaser]

I wish this hybrid LCD/CRT technology was developed further, looks rather promising:

 

[Neuroxia]

There was a Sony GDM FW900 being sold for about 230$ near me. Unfortunately it was in a bad moment as i was moving between apartments and i said that i would get it a week later after i finished moving, as i wasn't in the mood to carry it around.
Bad decision, because by that time it was already sold.

Now the chance of another FW900 showing up are pretty slim, but i still plan on getting 2 Trinitrons, one monitor and one TV, since now i live at my place and i don't have to worry about the weight or having to move.

And yeah, i would buy a modern CRT in a heartbeat.

 

[Charizard]

room or probably a stand that holds it anymore lol. When everything went to LCD the amount of support most desks now do is like 40 pounds.......which is probably less than what a big CRT weighs.....those things were heavy AF

Click to shrink...

Yeah, my desk could do it but it is from another era. The "new" desk I have been too lazy to set up would probably just collapse.

I will probably take the new one with me when I move out though. This current desk is just way too heavy.

 

[James3D]

Yes, I would love to buy a good, modern crt monitor.

 

[mutantmagnet]

Bomblord it would be profitable but you have to understand who your core audience would be.


Retro archivists and rare game collectors

The most obvious audience but the retro community is filled with bargain hunters. You have to target the people who put up the cash for rare games or have literal storage rooms for game collections set up like a museum. So the wealthiest 10% of a niche community.


Professional Gamers

You simply can't target this at anyone who ranks competitively. You have to aggressively target the people who get team sponsorship or are independent while still breaking into the top 32 of any tournament. So you are targeting the most skilled 0.5% of a community larger than retro gamers but a much smaller fraction of that community.

Graphic Designers

This is the second most obvious choice and by far the biggest audience you can capture on percentage basis and most likely in absolute terms as well. Most of them are well funded so you could compete for this entire sub group in the consumer market.


Enthusiast Prosumers

This audience is larger than the graphic designer market but there are too many diverse tastes to easily pin down how much of this market you could cater too.
The people who fit in this category make up 3-4% of the PC gaming community at minimum. IMO you can count people who buy all the consoles at launch without hesitation as having the same level of enthusiasm and spending power as such pc gamers.


If you are serious about making this into a business, personally the thing that kills CRT's for me is the weight. I can deal with the volume but the weight is a killer. Based on what little I did learn reducing the weight is very difficult as you increase the size of the screen.

The weight is a huge issue when hiring a moving a company or adjusting the display once you are settled. So if you could find a way to design these monitors such that it could be broken up into 3 or more pieces then the individual weight of the parts wouldn't be as obnoxious as the entire unit. The problem with that idea is that CRT's are such a huge environmental concern even that idea isn't easy to implement even if it should be easier than spending a ton more on R and D to reduce the weight of the entire unit.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

I found a pair of CRT televisions on a curb earlier this year while I was running, big sign on both that said "FREE". Got them both in my home office right now:

I run a Xi3 Piston PC to the one in the pic through a cheapo VGA->SVideo converter from ebay. The TV actually is so old it doesn't have any composite or svideo input, only RF, so I run the converter to a VCR, which then outputs via RF. But due to the nature of CRT images in general, and how blurry they are, it looks fine.

About 5 or so years ago, while I was renting an office for my business in downtown Houston, the elderly woman who rented an office next to mine passed away, and she had no family. They were going to throw everything in her office away, but asked if I wanted anything before they did. Inside was a 17" CRT PC-VGA monitor that I quickly snatched up.

The only monitor I've ever had shipped to me in the mail is a 9" Sony PVM, which I took a huge gamble on, but luckily it shipped fine. The shipping was as much as the monitor itself!

I also went to a computer liquidation warehouse earlier this year and picked up a bunch of CRTS:

Then, about a month ago, I was at a goodwill, and they, by complete luck, had a 22" CRT television for sale, $1. They had stopped taking CRT televisions around 2007, so I dunno why they had this in there. I went and bought it, and it turns out they were having their 75% off sale, so I got it for $0.25.

All in all, I have:

one 32" RCA CRT Television with Svideo and Composite
two 13" Atari RGB CRT Monitors with proprietary Atari inputs, converted to SCART RGB-in
one 9" Sony PVM RGB-BNC CRT Monitor (plus SVideo and Composite)
two 22" CRT Televsions with SVideo and Composite (one memorex, one RCA)
one 22" CRT Television with RF-in (Sharp)
two 17" CRT PC-VGA monitors (one from a company called KDS, one from a company called Envision)

So 9 CRT screens in my place. I'm going to Computer Reset in dallas whenever they open back up to the public with the intent on stocking up on more CRT monitors. I can never have too many, I don't know when these will become impossible to find, so my goal is to have as many as I can as back ups. They are prohibitively expensive to ship, so i can only grab what is around me. I have a friend who has offered me a Commodore 1084 in the past, but he can never find the time to dig it out of his garage. I covet these monitors, I use them a lot. So long as you don't move them, they should last for several more years, it's moving CRTs that really breaks them.

Man I love CRT screens. They look so gorgeous.

 

[RoboitoAM]

Sorry, as cool as they were their weight can fuck right off.

I'll stick with my 1440p Gsync monitor that I can lift with one hand.

 

[Bomblord]

I found a pair of CRT televisions on a curb earlier this year while I was running, big sign on both that said "FREE". Got them both in my home office right now:

I run a Xi3 Piston PC to the one in the pic through a cheapo VGA->SVideo converter from ebay. The TV actually is so old it doesn't have any composite or svideo input, only RF, so I run the converter to a VCR, which then outputs via RF. But due to the nature of CRT images in general, and how blurry they are, it looks fine.

About 5 or so years ago, while I was renting an office for my business in downtown Houston, the elderly woman who rented an office next to mine passed away, and she had no family. They were going to throw everything in her office away, but asked if I wanted anything before they did. Inside was a 17" CRT PC-VGA monitor that I quickly snatched up.

I also went to a computer liquidation warehouse earlier this year and picked up a bunch of CRTS:

Then, about a month ago, I was at a goodwill, and they, by complete luck, had a 22" CRT television for sale, $1. They had stopped taking CRT televisions around 2007, so I dunno why they had this in there. I went and bought it, and it turns out they were having their 75% off sale, so I got it for $0.25.

All in all, I have:

one 32" RCA CRT Television with Svideo and Composite
two 13" Atari RGB CRT Monitors with proprietary Atari inputs, converted to SCART RGB-in
one 9" Sony PVM RGB-BNC CRT Monitor (plus SVideo and Composite)
two 22" CRT Televsions with SVideo and Composite (one memorex, one RCA)
one 22" CRT Television with RF-in (Sharp)
two 17" CRT PC-VGA monitors (one from a company called KDS, one from a company called Envision)

So 9 CRT screens in my place. I'm going to Computer Reset in dallas whenever they open back up to the public with the intent on stocking up on more CRT monitors. I can never have too many, I don't know when these will become impossible to find, so my goal is to have as many as I can as back ups. They are prohibitively expensive to ship, so i can only grab what is around me. I have a friend who has offered me a Commodore 1084 in the past, but he can never find the time to dig it out of his garage. I covet these monitors, I use them a lot. So long as you don't move them, they should last for several more years, it's moving CRTs that really breaks them.

Man I love CRT screens. They look so gorgeous.

Click to shrink...

Dang you're set! I didn't realize the benefits of these sets when I was younger so I chucked the one I had as soon as I got my first HDTV.

 

[Iucidium]

It'll be gamer-branded and cost about 2k

 

[Deleted member 12790]

The weight is a huge issue when hiring a moving a company or adjusting the display once you are settled. So if you could find a way to design these monitors such that it could be broken up into 3 or more pieces then the individual weight of the parts wouldn't be as obnoxious as the entire unit. The problem with that idea is that CRT's are such a huge environmental concern even that idea isn't easy to implement even if it should be easier than spending a ton more on R and D to reduce the weight of the entire unit.

Click to shrink...

95% or so of the weight of the CRT is the glass tube, it's the heaviest part of the monitor and it has to be one single piece, as it's under thousands of pounds of pressure. it has to be so heavy to prevent it from imploding on itself, it just can't be modular. I took the glass tube out of my apple studio display and it's all one giant tube that can't be broken up sadly:

 

[Zem]

I have a 32 inch Sony CRT and let me tell you, that thing is ridiculous. It needed 3 of us to move it. So no, they're far too big and heavy for 99.9999% of people

 

[Pargon]

If someone were to release a display that was at least on-par with the Sony FW900, I would certainly want one. But it's never going to happen.
The end of CRT technology was far too advanced and expensive for a small startup to begin producing them out of nowhere. They would end up being even more expensive than they were at their peak.
I think people forget that an FW900 was a $2300 display back when it was new. I doubt anyone would be willing to pay that much when you can get a large OLED for less.
It's not like record players which are a very basic technology that is easy to produce.

More realistically, I'm hoping for someone to produce an OLED or similar display that is driven like a CRT, rather than using sample-and-hold, to fix the motion handling.
There's potential for that happening in the near future. LG had a "crystal motion" OLED prototype on display at CES 2019 which improved motion considerably - though still not to the level of a CRT.
And I can see motion handling being something that manufacturers start to compete on once there are similar technologies on the market rather than just OLED vs LCD.

A modern CTR makes no sense to be honest, that technology has been dead foe two decades

Click to shrink...

And yet nothing released since compares to the motion handling of a CRT.

The failure to bring SED display technology to market is the greatest tech tragedy of the modern age.

Click to shrink...

People need to stop this myth of SED/FED displays being "flat CRTs".
They were far closer to "improved plasmas" than they ever were "flat CRTs" since they had a fixed pixel structure and used PWM to control brightness.

Yes, i remember reading about slim CRT development, and if they manged that for a reasonable price it would sell

Click to shrink...

The problem is that the slimmer the CRT is, the steeper the angle to the corners is - so you end up with far worse focus, convergence, and geometry with those thin CRTs.
Flat screened CRTs had a similar problem. They required thicker glass, and were far more difficult to get even focus, convergence, and geometry across the entire screen - though Sony managed it on their highest-end displays.

Not at the moment - there are way too many CRTs still easily available, and the audience for them is already generally used to finding their stuff in retro stores / eBay / Craigslist / on the side of the road. Give it 20 years.

Click to shrink...

There may be a lot of junk CRT TVs out there still, depending on where you live. Here, most of them are immediately scrapped/recycled rather than anyone trying to sell them.
Try finding a good quality CRT monitor though. It feels like they disappeared off the face of the earth where I am.

 

[Fularu]

Unless it's a crt with proper rgb inputs and excellent color rendering it's completely pointless.

For RGB lacking units that don't have an existing rgb aftermarket mod a commodore C64 monitor is the way to go.

But even the C64 now has an RGB solution (at long last)

 

[Bomblord]

Bomblord it would be profitable but you have to understand who your core audience would be.


Retro archivists and rare game collectors

The most obvious audience but the retro community is filled with bargain hunters. You have to target the people who put up the cash for rare games or have literal storage rooms for game collections set up like a museum. So the wealthiest 10% of a niche community.


Professional Gamers

You simply can't target this at anyone who ranks competitively. You have to aggressively target the people who get team sponsorship or are independent while still breaking into the top 32 of any tournament. So you are targeting the most skilled 0.5% of a community larger than retro gamers but a much smaller fraction of that community.

Graphic Designers

This is the second most obvious choice and by far the biggest audience you can capture on percentage basis and most likely in absolute terms as well. Most of them are well funded so you could compete for this entire sub group in the consumer market.


Enthusiast Prosumers

This audience is larger than the graphic designer market but there are too many diverse tastes to easily pin down how much of this market you could cater too.
The people who fit in this category make up 3-4% of the PC gaming community at minimum. IMO you can count people who buy all the consoles at launch without hesitation as having the same level of enthusiasm and spending power as such pc gamers.


If you are serious about making this into a business, personally the thing that kills CRT's for me is the weight. I can deal with the volume but the weight is a killer. Based on what little I did learn reducing the weight is very difficult as you increase the size of the screen.

The weight is a huge issue when hiring a moving a company or adjusting the display once you are settled. So if you could find a way to design these monitors such that it could be broken up into 3 or more pieces then the individual weight of the parts wouldn't be as obnoxious as the entire unit. The problem with that idea is that CRT's are such a huge environmental concern even that idea isn't easy to implement even if it should be easier than spending a ton more on R and D to reduce the weight of the entire unit.

Click to shrink...

Oh I don't have the money or assets to actually start something like this xD. This was more of just a thought experiment and some vague hope that someone would tell me someone is already doing it or maybe someone would see the interest who could.

 

[Alvis]

Maybe at a super high price so that manufacturing just, say, 5k and selling these 5k is enough to make a profit. It would be a niche thing

 

[Sheng Long]

Only if they could cut the weight in half or more. And sizes would have to be kept smaller too. Just too damn heavy.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Maybe at a super high price so that manufacturing just, say, 5k and selling these 5k is enough to make a profit. It would be a niche thing

Click to shrink...

These kinds of things are something that can't work at that scale. You need an entire plant to produce them, you can't produce too little or else they won't cover the cost. the only reason the market used to exist, was because they could count on millions of CRTs being sold over the world. if the market is too small, it can't recoup the cost of production.

 

[bionic77]

While CRT is definitely better for lag, they are heavy as fuck and take up a ton of space at the larger sizes.

My brother in law had a gigantic Sony CRT (I think it was like 35"-36") and that thing was a pain in the dick to move.

 

[mutantmagnet]

95% or so of the weight of the CRT is the glass tube, it's the heaviest part of the monitor and it has to be one single piece, as it's under thousands of pounds of pressure. it has to be so heavy to prevent it from imploding on itself, it just can't be modular. I took the glass tube out of my apple studio display and it's all one giant tube that can't be broken up sadly:

Click to shrink...

I knew the tube was a big component but 95% of the weight? That's nuts. It's a shame while we keep making discoveries in new translucent materials that should be stronger and lighter than glass they are all too expensive and even if they weren't it still has to be tested to determine if it can be used as a CRT component.

 

[Nexus2049]

If they could make a CRT TV that is 55" and 4K like my TV now (without it weighing hundreds of pounds and taking up an entire section of room) then sure. Until then, bye CRT.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Size will always be the issue

 

[Alvis]

These kinds of things are something that can't work at that scale. You need an entire plant to produce them, you can't produce too little or else they won't cover the cost. the only reason the market used to exist, was because they could count on millions of CRTs being sold over the world. if the market is too small, it can't recoup the cost of production.

Click to shrink...

In that case rip CRTs forever

 

[Deleted member 1722]

Here is my little desktop PVM. 50 bucks well spent a while ago. Its a lot of fun to have and I don't mind the small size. Everything is very legible.

I have two 27inchers that are nothing special, mostly for Star Trek.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Here is my little desktop PVM. 50 bucks well spent a while ago. Its a lot of fun to have and I don't mind the small size. Everything is very legible.

I have two 27inchers that are nothing special, mostly for Star Trek.

Click to shrink...

Pretty sure I have that exact PVM

 

[Deleted member 51691]

It would get one purchase from Dark1x at least lol

 

[degauss]

No, and from an environmental perspective it should never be made.

 

[Deleted member 1722]

Pretty sure I have that exact PVM

Click to shrink...

At some point I am going to find a 15 or so incher, but I haven't come across one that feels right yet.

 

[Piggychan]

If they can make them less bulky I would look into them again

I miss my old BVM but it didn't last long although I thought it was small and cute. bought 2nd hand off eBay

 

[Zem]

I knew the tube was a big component but 95% of the weight? That's nuts. It's a shame while we keep making discoveries in new translucent materials that should be stronger and lighter than glass they are all too expensive and even if they weren't it still has to be tested to determine if it can be used as a CRT component.

Click to shrink...

Yeah when you lift one you quickly realise where all the weight is. The person carrying the back has it easy whilst two suckers help carry the glass side.

 

[DeuceGamer]

The sad thing is if no one ends up manufacturing new CRT's we only have a finite amount that will eventually become exhausted making retro gaming and arcade cabinets with original hardware extremely rare. Hopefully that doesn't happen, but it seems like it's likely at the current rate.

 

[MrNelson]

Yeah when you lift one you quickly realise where all the weight is. The person carrying the back has it easy whilst two suckers help carry the glass side.

Click to shrink...

It's even worse with those FD Trinitrons that everyone chases, because there's a ton more glass in the screen than on your traditional curved CRT, which makes them that much heavier.

 

[Fularu]

If they can make them less bulky I would look into them again

I miss my old BVM but it didn't last long although I thought it was small and cute. bought 2nd hand off eBay

Click to shrink...

The white pce controller port is very fragile, you really shouldn't keep the lid on top of it

 

[TheYanger]

The upsides are big, but the downsides are insane. Nobody misses carrying around fucking CRTs either. Like, just thinking about a proper 4k CRT and how heavy and large it would be gives me anxiety.

 

[Zem]

It's even worse with those FD Trinitrons that everyone chases, because there's a ton more glass in the screen than on your traditional curved CRT, which makes them that much heavier.

Click to shrink...

haha that's the one I got last year (with the stand). The plan was to put it in the upstairs bedroom for retro consoles, as soon as we lifted it we knew it wasn't going upstairs and its remained downstairs ever since. Not even sure it would be safe to have it upstairs. My arms were still aching for a couple of days after lifting it.

 

[Dr_Biscuit]

What could work would be a tv with a laser scanning a qdot screen.