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FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,126
Los Angeles, CA
I think that's part of why the best Superman stories (and this is coming from someone who's not really a big Superman fan), focus on highlighting Clark as much as they do the feats her performs as Superman.

Like one of the shows said, "Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am." At the end of the day, Clark Kent is a good person. He's a genuinely decent, empathetic human being, who cares about people. He also happens to have incredible power, but because of that core humanity and good will, he uses those powers to protect and serve, even when it can cost him dearly personally.

If it wasn't for him being raised by a family that loved him and taught him as best they could to be a decent human being, he'd be a tyrant. He's not a perfect person, no one is, but he's just strong enough to reign in the darker aspects of humanity that reside in all of us.

Peter Parker and Steve Rogers are similar. Genuinely good human beings, gifted extraordinary abilities, but manage to maintain that humanity in spite of those powers. It's why we love them so much. Like I said, I'm not a huge Superman fan these days, but I absolutely love and respect what he stands for, especially when he's in the hands of talented writers who manage to highlight the best parts of him without being pretentious or preachy about it. I can't imagine how hard it is to write a story around a character like that, and maintain that balance. And we've definitely seen what happens when a writer gets it so very, very wrong (I'm looking at you Zack Snyder). It's amazing to me that Lois and Clark is one of the few live action adaptions not starring Christopher Reeve, that managed to really show us a very human Clark Kent, while also maintaining his good nature. No nihilistic and edgy re-imagining of the character. Like, rewatching that show, I never felt the need to punch Clark in the face for being a high and mighty jackass. I've also been rewatching Smallville, and I can't tell you how many times I just wanted to shake the shit out of Clark, because of how frustrating he is. Smallville is still a guilty pleasure of mine, but man, Clark makes me so mad sometimes.

EDIT: But on topic, yes, Homelander is terrifying. lol I'm only 2 episodes into Season 2 of The Boys, and man, Anthony Starr is so good at being bad. It's a little disturbing...
 
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SasaBassa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,088
I think that's part of why the best Superman stories (and this is coming from someone who's not really a big Superman fan), focus on highlighting Clark as much as they do the feats her performs as Superman.

Like one of the shows said, "Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am." At the end of the day, Clark Kent is a good person. He's a genuinely decent, empathetic human being, who cares about people. He also happens to have incredible power, but because of that core humanity and good will, he uses those powers to protect and serve, even when it can cost him dearly personally.

If it wasn't for him being raised by a family that loved him and taught him as best they could to be a decent human being, he'd be a tyrant. He's not a perfect person, no one is, but he's just strong enough to reign in the darker aspects of humanity that reside in all of us.

Peter Parker and Steve Rogers are similar. Genuinely good human beings, gifted extraordinary abilities, but manage to maintain that humanity in spite of those powers. It's why we love them so much. Like I said, I'm not a huge Superman fan these days, but I absolutely love and respect what he stands for, especially when he's in the hands of talented writers who manage to highlight the best parts of him without being pretentious or preachy about it. I can't imagine how hard it is to write a story around a character like that, and maintain that balance. And we've definitely seen what happens when a writer gets it so very, very wrong (I'm looking at you Zack Snyder). It's amazing to me that Lois and Clark is one of the few live action adaptions not starring Christopher Reeves, that managed to really show us a very human Clark Kent, while also maintaining his good nature. No nihilistic and edgy re-imagining of the character. Like, rewatching that show, I never felt the need to punch Clark in the face for being a high and mighty jackass. I've also been rewatching Smallville, and I can't tell you how many times I just wanted to shake the shit out of Clark, because of how frustrating he is. Smallville is still a guilty pleasure of mine, but man, Clark makes me so mad sometimes.

EDIT: But on topic, yes, Homelander is terrifying. lol I'm only 2 episodes into Season 2 of The Boys, and man, Anthony Starr is so good at being bad. It's a little disturbing...

Pre-edit is exactly why cap worked so well on film and why reeves did. People bought they were just a good dude with super powers, not superhuman. It's the core of the character.

Evil superman stories get boring pretty quickly imo because they don't do anything new...unlike Homelander, who is as calculating a politician in the show as he is a sadistic SOB in the show. Absolutely great translation of him.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,126
Los Angeles, CA
Read Irredeemable. Its pretty great.

Its by Mark Waid, whole story is about a Superman figure that went mad.

I finally got to read Irredeemable this year, and man, I was riveted from beginning to in. I read both Irredeemable and Incorruptible, and loved them both. So good, and I definitely recommend them to anyone that wants to read a compelling "Evil Superman" style story. The character work in that book is really well done.
 

Desi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,210
Love this whole discussion. Even if Homelander could fly back 124 plus times and saved everyone without breaking their necks to landing. Who is to say they wouldn't have snitched that he killed the pilot on accident? That alone would have ruined the military deal and made heroes look "incompetent". Shit if he couldn't save everyone they would be more likely to snitch.

I truly believe stopping the plane was not possible, just like pulling buildings up from their foundations and swinging them like swords in Kingdom Hearts is not possible.
 

TalonJH

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,878
Louisville, KY
Season 2 is only a few episodes in(because it's a weekly release) and he gets even worse. Love the show. I am having a little trouble getting into the comic though.
 

FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,126
Los Angeles, CA
Still one of the best action scenes in a superhero movie. God, why did Returns have to be a boring 3 hour tribute to the Donner films? What a waste.

So disappointing. I remember actually enjoying the film in the theater, but it ultimately fell short in some key areas. I feel like if it was a shorter film, and completely excised the Superdad plot, it would have been more enjoyable. Routh was really great at channeling the Reeve's Clark/Superman that they were going for, but it really needed to be a shorter film. I think the story and tone fit right in to the continuity of Superman 1 and 2. Maybe cast a stronger Lois than Bosworth. I didn't think her and Routh had chemistry, and definitely not on the same level as Kidder and Reeve. It's not that Bosworth is a bad actress, she just didn't work as Lois for me. It's a shame Spacey and Singer are a part of it (though, at the time, Spacey did a great job as Hackman's Luthor), and I really do feel like there is a solid, uplifting Superman movie in there somewhere. I didn't even mind that it wasn't chock full of action, and the airplane rescue sequence is still one of the best "superhero saves a bunch of people" scenes in superhero movies.

It's up there with the train fight in Spider-Man 2 as a scene I can watch over and over again, and still cheer when it's over. Just a really well done scene. And the musical score throughout it is fantastic.
 

rayngiraffe

Member
Dec 11, 2018
1,456
I do find it strange how the ideal of a heroic and idealistic superman has been vastly overtaken by the more broody/weirdly darker takes (Brightburn/injustice/homelander/synderjpeg). We've seen it done well before (DCUA/90s superman/All-star, and those had issues in which superman consistently struggled with what it meant to be him).
It's just kind of funny how the alternative takes have now become the mainstream view of how superman really is, and its kind of sad, really.
 

Deleted member 16657

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,198
I do find it strange how the ideal of a heroic and idealistic superman has been vastly overtaken by the more broody/weirdly darker takes (Brightburn/injustice/homelander/synderjpeg). We've seen it done well before (DCUA/90s superman/All-star, and those had issues in which superman consistently struggled with what it meant to be him).
It's just kind of funny how the alternative takes have now become the mainstream view of how superman really is, and its kind of sad, really.

People got the idea that Superman is boring, and so the counterculture view of Superman became mainstream.

Eventually we'll get the rise of the counter-counterculture and someone will deliver a back to basics but also modernized Superman tale that resets the clock, until the next cycle.
 

NinjaGarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,550
Invincible has its own evil Superman but that goes all sorts of weird places. Looking forward to the cartoon adaptation on Prime cause it's got a hell of a voice cast.
 

Deleted member 34725

User-requested account closure
Banned
Nov 28, 2017
1,058
The idea of the "Noble Superman" has always been just so unrealistic and boring. Power corrupts, and imo the Greeks were much more believable with how their gods behaved. Someone with so much power would not be able to empathize with us regs humans. They would look at us like ants.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
People got the idea that Superman is boring, and so the counterculture view of Superman became mainstream.

Eventually we'll get the rise of the counter-counterculture and someone will deliver a back to basics but also modernized Superman tale that resets the clock, until the next cycle.

I can only speak about the movies because I don't know the comics at all. The reason Superman is boring is because I feel like he hasn't been adapted well in a modern sense. And when you think about it, it's sad that billionaires like Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne are able to cultivate these images and new fans through these movies and Superman is largely going the other way. Because really Clark Kent's upbringing should be more relatable than them to many many people.

Batman Begins is my favorite Batman movie because of not only how it presents its hero but its antagonists as well. There isn't just one main antagonist, there are three in Batman Begins. They correspond to the different acts of the movie, Falcone, Scarecrow and Ras al Ghul all are juxtaposed against Batman in different ways. We never see that level of effort in a Superman movie. At least I've never felt it in a modern sense. Perhaps it's just because a director like Nolan isn't directing Superman movies so it's not all that fair.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
Love this whole discussion. Even if Homelander could fly back 124 plus times and saved everyone without breaking their necks to landing. Who is to say they wouldn't have snitched that he killed the pilot on accident? That alone would have ruined the military deal and made heroes look "incompetent". Shit if he couldn't save everyone they would be more likely to snitch.

I truly believe stopping the plane was not possible, just like pulling buildings up from their foundations and swinging them like swords in Kingdom Hearts is not possible.
It's true, but Superman would have saved those people, even if he had to make 100 plus trips to do it. Though that's unlikely because, he spends his time ending up in these kinds of situations all the time so I'm quite sure his experience at saving people would result in him actually being creative and good at it. Even if he is written to not really have to deal with these sort of real life physics.

It is an interesting discussion because we never really see how easy it would be for supes to screw up shit, especially when they are new. There is no way Superman wouldn't have accidentally let a lot of people die at first, but, we never really see that at least not on screen. Though at least Marvel touched this a bit in Avengers: Age of Ultron. The Boys also touches on this a lot with The Deep because he actually does try to save people and creatures but it seems to always go bad for him.

Anyway, it's pretty clear Homelander didn't even want to try and you're right, he wanted to cover up the pilot being killed among other things.
 

JasonV

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,967
i guess you've never heard of Watchmen? Homelander is more or less Ozymandias.

What? Ozy is a some kind of genius criminal mastermind with decade long intricate plans.

Homelander is so lazy he zapped the whole plane cockpit and was like uhhh fuck it.

He spent like one day with his son and was so impatient to see his power he threw him off the roof.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
This is why Batman has thousands of plans for taking out Superman.
You know I never really appreciated Batman VS Superman until I knew Homelander. I now get why Bruce is so damn terrified of Superman. And really the chances of somebody with that much power not being a piece of shit is pretty astronomically small, so much so, I don't blame him at all for just assuming the worst of Superman.

Another thing people haven't really brought up is that Supeman isn't human. Maybe no human could have that kind of power and still end up decent.

Though most Kryptonians were pieces of shit themselves so who knows if it's because of his species.

There are genuinely decent people out there, even ones with power, relative power, Keneau Reeves comes to mind. Despite his fame and fortune, he seems like a genuinely good person that wants to help people and doesn't have an out of control ego. Yes I know that might seem silly, but my point is, there are good human beings so it's possible there could be a supe with that much power who doesn't turn evil.

Edit: So yes, I'm conflicted on the idea. lol
 
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Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,517
It is an interesting discussion because we never really see how easy it would be for supes to screw up shit, especially when they are new. There is no way Superman wouldn't have accidentally let a lot of people die at first, but, we never really see that at least not on screen.

The same writer who wrote the original Boys comic also wrote this

1456862626166.jpg

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1456862689277.jpg

1456862720362.jpg

1451626704093.jpg

1451626735415.jpg
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
The same writer who wrote the original Boys comic also wrote this

1456862626166.jpg

1456862657893.jpg

1456862689277.jpg

1456862720362.jpg

1451626704093.jpg

1451626735415.jpg
Damn. But yeah. I mean for superman to exist, he'd basically have to be the kind of person that would be broken up about even one person dying that he could have saved. But therein lies the problem, it would be impossible to save everybody and eventually you'd drive yourself mad trying. So could a Superman even exist even if they were a good person?
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,102
This show has really opened my eyes about Anthony Starr. I watched almost all of Banshee, and thought that the guy had zero range and was literally only good at looking pensive and brooding. He looked like that role was the only thing he could ever pull off.

Cue The Boys to make me realize that the dude had legit real acting talent hidden inside him.

Homelander is a terrible piece of shit human being, but he's also the most interesting character to watch on screen. Starr is definiely part of the reason.
 

kaden

Member
Dec 23, 2017
32
日本
Antony was great as the two twins in Outrageous Fortune, one was a lawyer the other a little slow in the head. Great kiwi show.
His accent as Homelander always cracks me up, cause I am used to his normal kiwi accent.
Same with Karl Urban, with his weird British accent.

It is kinda cool that both of them are kiwis.
 

Radnom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,020
I don't think Homelander left the plane because he was lazy by any means. He wasn't able to make the perfect rescue, and he views that as tarnishing his image. He'd prefer everyone die than being viewed as less than perfect.
Yeah this is how I interpreted that scene. He absolutely went in there expecting to be able to save the day.


Antony Starr's a very good actor, he's fantastic in Outrageous Fortune. I love that show but I might be biased for living a few min away from where it was set lol
 

kaden

Member
Dec 23, 2017
32
日本
Antony Starr's a very good actor, he's fantastic in Outrageous Fortune. I love that show but I might be biased for living a few min away from where it was set lol

My Aunty and Uncle live in the same suburb as the house too, they even knew Siobhan Marshalls parents.
But yeah great show, I wish it was on streaming sites. My dvds are still in NZ far away from me now. :(
 

Rad Bandolar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,036
SoCal
I do find it strange how the ideal of a heroic and idealistic superman has been vastly overtaken by the more broody/weirdly darker takes (Brightburn/injustice/homelander/synderjpeg). We've seen it done well before (DCUA/90s superman/All-star, and those had issues in which superman consistently struggled with what it meant to be him).
It's just kind of funny how the alternative takes have now become the mainstream view of how superman really is, and its kind of sad, really.
The pendulum will swing back. You look at Cap in the MCU and it's easy to see how a character like that works and why. People who think he's boring have been ill-served by writers with a distinct lack of imagination and talent.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Count me as another person who finds it funny seeing him appear as American characters after watching Outrageous Fortune

And when they did the Outrageous Fortune COVID video he couldn't even maintain his own New Zealand accent lol
 

Last_colossi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,257
Australia
The whole point of Superman is that he's the ideal person for his powers, his humbleness matches his strength. Homelander is
a psychopath that was raised in a lab by assholes trying to create a perfect weapon.
 

Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,517
Damn. But yeah. I mean for superman to exist, he'd basically have to be the kind of person that would be broken up about even one person dying that he could have saved. But therein lies the problem, it would be impossible to save everybody and eventually you'd drive yourself mad trying. So could a Superman even exist even if they were a good person?

Could probably ask a doctor who has seen a patient die or a surgeon who lost someone on the operating table yet still go on

That he can't save everyone is one of the earliest lessons he learns

ass06-22.jpg


He internalizes it, grieves, learns from it, goes to his loved ones for support and resolves to do better. Because there are still people he can save.
 

Polyh3dron

Prophet of Regret
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,860
What? Ozy is a some kind of genius criminal mastermind with decade long intricate plans.

Homelander is so lazy he zapped the whole plane cockpit and was like uhhh fuck it.

He spent like one day with his son and was so impatient to see his power he threw him off the roof.
The public sees Homelander as a "saint", he has a squeaky clean image, but behind the scenes he is a ruthless murderer.
 

rayngiraffe

Member
Dec 11, 2018
1,456
People got the idea that Superman is boring, and so the counterculture view of Superman became mainstream.

Eventually we'll get the rise of the counter-counterculture and someone will deliver a back to basics but also modernized Superman tale that resets the clock, until the next cycle.
The pendulum will swing back. You look at Cap in the MCU and it's easy to see how a character like that works and why. People who think he's boring have been ill-served by writers with a distinct lack of imagination and talent.
Yea i don't disagree. It's just that Superman, despite being featured as the idealized superhero, consistently has a lot of nuance and characterization in the decades of storytelling before this point. Personally i don't really agree that superman should be written as wholly negative given his long legacy (there's probably a lot of other edgier stories you can go read) and that stuff like KC should have been the exception, not the norm.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
Could probably ask a doctor who has seen a patient die or a surgeon who lost someone on the operating table yet still go on

That he can't save everyone is one of the earliest lessons he learns

ass06-22.jpg


He internalizes it, grieves, learns from it, goes to his loved ones for support and resolves to do better. Because there are still people he can save.
It's true but I don't think that's exactly the same thing. In that, every moment he's not out there, is a moment thousands of people are dead that would be alive. And I know the movies and even tv shows have touched on this and how ultimately he comes to terms with it, but, I'm not sure it could realistically be done. You'd have to internalize it, you'd have to turn your mind off to it and I wonder after how long before you'd start getting numb to all sorts of deaths and just stop caring altogether. Not to mention Superman is basically an immortal that will have to deal with this for decades if not centuries. Whew.

Another potential problem would be eventually there'd be as many people that blame Superman for their loved one's death that hate him, more than those that love him for those that he could save. He'd be God. I'm not sure even humanity could realistically deal with Superman. Not that we ever will but still heh. Maybe Homelander is a bit more understandable.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,976
Could probably ask a doctor who has seen a patient die or a surgeon who lost someone on the operating table yet still go on

That he can't save everyone is one of the earliest lessons he learns

ass06-22.jpg


He internalizes it, grieves, learns from it, goes to his loved ones for support and resolves to do better. Because there are still people he can save.

Man this issue is my single favorite comic book of all time and this page always guts me.
 

residentgrigo

Banned
Oct 30, 2019
3,726
Germany
Homelander is half Captain America and always was. Reducing him to just Superman is a misunderstanding of the character. Evil Supermen also existed for longer than anyone here has been alive. Come on now. He is also MUCH more evil in the comic. Not that the comic is good:
ccacd-homelander-sexually-harasses-starlight-7.jpg

He skull fucks people to death. Is a canibal. Etc.
 

golguin

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,759
This is why I really enjoy My Hero Academia and One Punch Man. Those shows demonstrate the idea of super powered people in a real society that still needs to operate.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,295
People keep saying outrageous fortune and I haven't seen that, but I have seen Banshee and he's amazing in that. His Homelander is perfect.
 

residentgrigo

Banned
Oct 30, 2019
3,726
Germany
The Authority were evil? I read the whole thing .... i just thought they were unorthodox.
Warren Ellis himself called them fascists. Sigh... Warren Ellis.
RCO021.jpg

Mark Millar also had Midnighter rape a villain to death (a Captain America parody) in the very next run. Do I need to go on?

Zack Snyder further perfectly understands Superman. Not what I would have done but top to bottom based on (once) canon lore and also bits of non-canon stuff. Crazy how he took complete scenes from Superman: Earth One Vol 1 and 2 in both MoS and BvS and they now suddenly work! Juicy lemonade from the bitterest of lemons. Vol 2 is such a travesty. Superman basically instigates a genocide at the end... and thank the lord that the shameful caricature in Josstice League will soon be no more. The other extreme no one wants. Whedon reduced him to cereal mascot garbage and the final shirt ripping scene was Snyder, not Joss.

The best standalone Superman comic in case anyone cares and was technically canon in the 90s:
superman-man-for-all2.png
 

residentgrigo

Banned
Oct 30, 2019
3,726
Germany
How dark the comic went without going into baby murder or death rape. Homelander coerced the straight Bucky analog, like I said he is half Cap, to be in a gay relationship with him to advance in the ranks but grades him on sexual performance which is never good enough to join The 7. He then downs another plane because he can. The NSFW scene I mean:
imgur.com

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

Discover the magic of the internet at Imgur, a community powered entertainment destination. Lift your spirits with funny jokes, trending memes, entertaining gifs, inspiring stories, viral videos, and so much more.
The first plane indecent is a changed 9/11 in the comics. Because of course.
This 6 issue mini named The Boys: Herogasm, set between issues 30 and 31, further has a scene of named superheroes smoking a dried fetus in the form of joints. That scene even opens with a gamer word toss and other characters who are on the show get to smoke a joint made out of the "vaginal mucus" of Queen Maeve instead. The comic has zero fucking brains and S1E6 was the last ep that had anything much to do with the source. S2 is inferior to S1 so far which is ironic.

In summary: Neither version is smart and never will be. S1 is a good show though and show Homelander is great.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,216
Greater Vancouver
Warren Ellis himself called them fascists. Sigh... Warren Ellis.
RCO021.jpg

Mark Millar also had Midnighter rape a villain to death (a Captain America parody) in the very next run. Do I need to go on?

Zack Snyder further perfectly understands Superman. Not what I would have done but top to bottom based on (once) canon lore and also bits of non-canon stuff. Crazy how he took complete scenes from Superman: Earth One Vol 1 and 2 in both MoS and BvS and they now suddenly work! Juicy lemonade from the bitterest of lemons. Vol 2 is such a travesty. Superman basically instigates a genocide at the end... and thank the lord that the shameful caricature in Josstice League will soon be no more. The other extreme no one wants. Whedon reduced him to cereal mascot garbage and the final shirt ripping scene was Snyder, not Joss.

The best standalone Superman comic in case anyone cares and was technically canon in the 90s:
superman-man-for-all2.png
If Snyder understands Superman, then Mark Millar understands Captain America.
 

Maledict

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,086
Mark Millar also had Midnighter rape a villain to death (a Captain America parody) in the very next run. Do I need to go on?

Are you remembering that right? The CA parody is implied to rape Apollo, and is then killed by Midnighter.

And re the quoted bit, whilst brutal that's missing the context of what the Blue had done and were doing. The message I got from the Authority was that it was brutal in scale and bodycount but that wasn't deliberate evil / power corruption but a response to the scale and nature of their threats (including the more realistic issue around RL world outcomes).

The Authority is brutal and OTT but they aren't facists.
 

residentgrigo

Banned
Oct 30, 2019
3,726
Germany
Mark Millar´s takes on Cap are mixed but there was some good stuff too. Millar also deconstructed him in Ultimates, at a point when his comic had no fans and was doing some really bad post 9/11 shit. So there was a point to it all and let´s not forget that Ultimates received universal acclaim when it came out. I further liked how The Ultimates went from grimdark cynicism to a fanatical word by the end of Vol 2. And then came Ultimate Comics: Avengers that lasts as long... Uff.
Mark Millar was up for 4 Eisners in 2000/01? Holly fuck but sure, he was a different writer back then. He is also one of the all-time great Superman writers:
dxky8li.jpg

Mark gives and Mark takes. He also predicted the modern-day alt-right in Swamp Thing Vol 2 165 with art by Curt Swan. (Chester is a hippie and part of the core cast.)
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think-about-it.jpg


My favorite overall Superman writer on Zack Snyder´s take:
zx1spy7izbo21.png

Guess who was asking for the Snyder Cut and is over the moon that he is getting it?


His current Twitter header. I am jealous.
1500x500
 
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